THE LAND PROPOSALS.

Taranaki Daily News, Volume LII, Issue 260, 9 December 1909, Page 4

THE LAND PROPOSALS.

HON. J. A. MILLAR DEFENDS lIIK POSITION. In the debate on the Land Mill on Monday, Mr. Wright (Wellington South) said that if the Government persisted in the I intention to pass the present land pro- | posals, it would mean the disruption ot the Government sooner or later. He recommended the Government to withdraw the Bill till something more in "harmony with the general principles of the Liberal party could be brought about, lie Hoped that it would cease : to cling to ot'liee merely for the sake of clinging to it. Mr. T. E. Taylor (Chriskhurch North) spoko in support of the amendment moved by Mr. llerries "that the minutes of proceedings* of the Committee with reference to the Bill be laid upon the table of the House and printed." Il ! was an extraordinary thing that ihev , should be asked to consider this report , without knowing whether it was true that the Prime Minister had moved for the recommittal of the Bill, so that he might, with the assistance of certain Opposition members, secure the reenactment of clauses that were objectionable to a majority of the committee when the Hill wa* lirst under consideration. He would like Mr. Guthrie to give the House an assurance that his vote was not used to reinstate the freehold clauses of the Bill. Perhaps some of the leasehold members of the committee would say whether the Ministerial hostility to the -leasehold principle had extended to'seeking the cooperation of Opposition members to defeat the leasehold principle, .sir. Taylor went on to refer to the co-operation as "this unholy alliance." The Government 'had surrendered Liberal principles to the freehold, and the time tu give up the nine million acres' of endowments would be when another critical time occurred in connection with the life, not ot the Liberal Party, but of the Cabins. When it became necessary ior toe Cabinet; to preserve itself, it would aci like the driver of a Russian sledge who was pursued by wolves, and who threw overboard first one child, and then another, and finally his wife, so that his own unworthy skin might be safe and sound.

MIL GUTHRTE EXPLAINS. Mr, Guthrie (Oroua) explained his attitude in regard to what happened to the Bill while it was before the Lands Committee. He was' not present when the matter was Hist brought up, as he had to leave Wellington to attend to some private business. On his return In; found out what had been done, but he 1 knew nothing about it till he returned, and he had not been asked by anyone to return. He added that he had not been asked by cither one side or the other to give \h vote in the committee. I If the amendment that the minutes of j the committee be laid on the table was [carried, it would be seen who was responsible for the whole position.

Jlr. Davey: Did anyone coiiiiiuiniciuc. with you asking you to Hurry lack again ? ilr. Guthrie replied that lie had received no communication from one >ult> or the other. But, lie added, if the motion to put tlie freehold clauses back had been carried in comajittec b\ means of his vote he would he proud of the fact, because he realised that the great majority of the people of this country were in favor of the freehold. Oilierwise they would never have sent fii'tyfour members to that Parliament to support it. (Hear, hear.) Let the leaseholders make an appeal to the country, and they would soon lind out where tliev were.

MR. ARNOLD ON", f REKEBKNIJI M. Mr. Arnold (Dunedin Central) said he was informed' that no casting vote was given at the second meeting of the Lands Committee, at which the freehold claus'es were reinstated by six votes to tour. Hie tacts seemed *to snow one leaseholder had voted to have the clauses deleted at the first meeting, when -Mr. Guthrie was not present, and for their restoration at the second ui-vt-ing. He was sorry t hat Ihe Standing Orders had not been amended so that the Press might be represented at •ome of the meetings of standing commit He had put a question to lht» Govern ment on this subject, and the repl .' wasimply that the matter was under consideration. While the (Jovenin'.eni sought to justify itself in putting the Land Bill through the House by the support of the Opposition, if the twentyone leaseholders on their own side, or portion of them, were to he found, as they might be found within the next few day'a, voting with the Opposition against !the Government, then what was justified on behalf of the Government would be one of the greatest political crimes that could he committed on the part of the minority. Mr. Arnold urged that the land question was not before the country at the last election, and he stated that he would be quite willing to have the question submitted to a referendum. Of course, it the relerendum proven hostile to the leaseholders, he "would still try to educate the country to their point of view, indeed, he would nor mind standing down from the next election and spending three years in an endeavor to educate the country on tins' question.

MR. SIDEY'S OPINIONS. Mr. Sidey (Dunedin South) said that if committees decided on having tli'-ir proceedings open to the Press, he saw no valid reason why the reporters should not be present, lie ucuevcd that tlie national endowments should be preserved, and he sympathised with the opposition to the present land proposals. He recognis'ed that the lease-in-per-petuity tenure was a bad bargain lor ! the State, which had to make the best I bargain it could to get out of it.

lION. J. A. MiLLAH. IN DEFENCE. CONDEMNS LAND FOR BEmEMBV. Si STEM. The Ilou. J. A. Millar said that the Government hail been accused ol betrayal of the national right, but could any member show him any clause in the new Bill where the power to lease was restricted? It had been fluid that lie had departed from the leasehold principle, but the same rights were given with regard to the leasehold in the new Hill as before. lie had also been twitted with the question of what he would sa v to his constituents' in regard to hi* change of.opinions. He had not changed his opinions in the slightest. What did the country say at the last general election? The Act passed two years ago laid down the principle that the option of the freehold was to be granted. Was not that the 'principle of the Liberal party? 'The principle of the option ot the freehold being 'given to the Crown tenants was endorsed by the people of the country at the last election. It sipgeared to him that the country was proposed to be run for 4417 land for svl I lenient tenants. For them the time of the country and the House was to he wasted' day after day. The sooner this question was before the people, and they had a fair understanding on it, tlic belter it would be. Some time before lie had stated ill the House thai lie was opposed to any further money being borrowed for land for settlement. 1 hey had spoken against the lease in perpetuity; thev had stated that it w;i* a bad thing, and should be wiped out. and he did not think that there was one per cent, of those who were apposing the Bill who did not want that tenure done awnv with. But what was it to be replaced with? The lease in perpetuity was terminable after u thousand years, but the renewable lease was interminable. The million odd acres which had been acquired under the Land for Settlement Act were practically gone from the State for ever and ever. Tlic principle at the back of the leasehold was that the unearned increment should be the property of the Stale. Tlkil. whs provided for under the present liill. A member: You give it away under this Bill.

Mr. Millar: You get it under Ihis Bill, and to a greater extent. Mr. Millar reviewed the provisions in the !i il for 'periodical revaluations in support of his statement. NOT AFRAID TO (10 TO 'ITIK COUNTRY.

"I apeak for myself as a member of the Cabinet," Mr. Millar said. "I don't know what Cabinet will do. I am quite prepared to risk my life siext week. I am not afraid to go to the country on the matter." Six million pounds liad been spent in settliusr 4417 people on the land, and it seemed t.liut. these people were going to dominate the whole of the eolony. He felt that the country would back the Government up in connection with its proposals. Mr. Taylor: No. Mr. Millar: I say yea. Mr. Taylor: Why not test the question? Mr. Millar (resuming) said that Mr. Sidey was wrong when he stated that the settlers could convert to the freehold whenever they liked. Mr. Suley: Look at clause 5 of the Act,

conversion must take place within two years.

Continuing, Mr. Millar said the Gov ernment wanted to see whether there was a demand for the freehold. If the seitlerd did not take advantage of the provision in the Act the land would remain leasehold for ever. Mr. Taylor: That is a great resolution. Mr. Millar: It is. Mr. Taylor: But it will be abandoned as .soon as there is need for it. You will throw it overboard whenever you think it advisable. "THE GOVERNMENT IM'EiMJ-S'-FOR HOW LONG? Mr. Millar went on to say that the nine millions of 7iatio»al endowment laud was intended to be kept as lease* hold land for sill time. Mr. Poole: Are you sure? •Mr. Millar: As far as we are con corned. Mr. Taylor: I'ntil the pressure is fc'utlicieut. .Mr. Millar next remarked that under the proposals it was proposed to acquire native land to the extent of half a million a vear.

Mr. Russell: Will you ever g : ,e the freehold of that? •Mr. Millar: Only the back sections. Mr. Taylor: We shall see. Air. Millar then declared that the criticism of the proposals was not due so much to a desire to retain the leasehold as' to throw the country into a state of chaos. The Liberal party had, as a matter of fact, stuck to the leasehold system. It had introduced the new proposals simply because no country could go on buying estates a,s New Zealand was doing. Every estate purchased led to the enhancement of the value of the remaining private estates. It seemed to him that the whole country was' going to be run for the sake of the Crown tenants. ; CROWN TENANTS BECOMUNG A BIGGER FACTOR.

Whenever there was a snowstorm, who paid? Why, the Government. And the .name, thing happened when there was a Hood, when tenants suffered hardship of any kind, when there was a bush fire.

In view of that fact, he, for one, hesitated to continue the old system. As time went on the Crown tenants seemed to become a bigger factor in the dominance of the country.

Members: Impossible. .Mr. Rus'sell: They are running the country now, and the freehold ia sought to Lie given them. Mr. .Millar: Here we are spending thousands of pounds in a debate on this question. t'outinuiug, Mr. .Millar said that He was not prepared' to go on asking the people to put settlers on the land at a cost of i'.1200 apiece, which was tilic average (Igure to date. Mr. Taylor: Is this the new Liberal policy? Mr. -Miliar: Xou should remember that you have peculiar ideas on Libem I ism. -Mr. Rus'sell: If that is the position , why don't you repeal the Lands f(|p Settlement Act? Ifesiininig. Mr. Millar declared that nowadays, as soon as a settler found 'Ms feet, he began to clamor for the straightout freehold. The people who opposed the demand were the city representatives, and he was one of them. Practically all members for the country districts supported the settlers in their claim. The only way to retain leasehold land for those who wanted to get on the land was by the means proposed in the Bill. Despite its efforts in this direction, the Government believed it was only a matter of time when the freehold would be given. There was no fairer system that that which was pro-

posed in the Bill, viz., that the enlranced * i.ue of the properties due to expenditure on public works shbuld go back at periodical terms for the benefit of the State.

Mr. Witty: Will they be content? CIIAXUE OF POLICY ADMITTED. Mr. Millar added: "I know wc are making a new departure in regard to policy. It is a policy of greater advantage tt) the Crown than the old system. When we come to the Land Bill I will U> prepared to debate it further." MR. HAXAX REPLIES TO MR. M'ILLAB.

Mr. llanan (lnvercargill) said the House had not been called upon to consider a more important statement than was now ! efore it for the last fifteen or eighteen years. They were proposing to alter the whole -policy of which the colony had been so proud. According to the Minister for Railways', the lands for settlement policy was now to stop. Mr. Russell: That's what it amounts to.

Mr. Taylor: Yes, that's it Mr. Hanan twitted Mr. Millar -with not having declared such a policy before his constituents, Mr. Millar interjected that he had mentioned it in the House, and his' constituents knew his views.

•Mr. Hunan said he had not made such a decided declaration.

Mr. Millar replied that he had clearly stated tliat the country could not go on borrowing money for lands for settlement.

Mr. llanan continued his speech on lines strongly favoring the leasehold principle, which he maintained was a sound one. He believed that the land question was not thoroughly understood by the people. The freehold party had >';ared the farmer. "What," asked Mr. llanan, Mid the early settlers come out from England and Scotland for?' The lion. T. Mackenzie (emphatically): To get the freehold.

THE DEIIATE ADJOURNED. Mr. Hanan went on to discuss the question in regard to other countries, and referred to Ireland. The Hon. T. Mackenzie: The leasehold won't settle Ireland. Mr. lliuinn, in an impassioned manner, went on to declaim against the present decision of the Government. He believed that when the people understood the. position, they or their children, or their children's children, would make someone pay for it, and that they would sav cursed be the land laws' that were passed in ISIO7, 1008, or 1009. He considered they would be political cowards and political backsliders—(hear, hear) — if they sanctioned what was proposed now. No Minister should ask any member to do anything that would make i him lose self-respect in the eyes of bis constituents'. (Hear, hear.) At 5.80 p.m. the debate was interrupted by the usual intimation from the I Speaker—''Sorry to interrupt the lion, [gentleman. He can continue his speech I to-morrow afternoon."