GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Colonist, Volume IV, Issue 410, 27 September 1861, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

House of representatives,

FRIDAY, AUGUST 16, Land Registry Act.

The honorable Mr. Fox moved the adoption of the following.resolution :—That it is desirable that the establishment of the system of registration prescribed by the Land Registry Act, 18G0, should be proceeded with ; but cautiously and by way of experiment. That it is not desirable that it should be at once established in all the provinces ; or to any greater extent at first than may enable it to be worked under the personal superintendency of the Registrar-General. That it ought not for the present to be established in any province, except on the requisition of the Provincial Government. That subject to these provisoes it is the opinion of the house that no time should be lost in giving piaefical effect to the system. —Mi1. Fox said that though many of the functions of government were of an irksome and uninteresting character, there were qecasions in which any man of ordinary intelligence would rejoice of having the privilege of carrying into effect measures which were calculated to promote the prosperity and welfare of the community. The present was an occasion of that kind, when he sought to obtain the concurrence of the Legislature towards effecting a great social and commercial reform. Any one acquainted with the subject of the transfer of land in the old country was aware how it was complicated, and surrounded with difficulties of a magnitude so great as practically to render the possession of landed estate, in many instances, a mere empty honor, the real advantage being counterbalanced by the adventitious evils by which the possession of such property was surrounded, and and its value destroyed by the impediments which existed in the way of its transfer and devolution. The Legislature of New Zealand had, last session, passed a measure for the removal of these evils, which was calculated to work an entire change in the law of the transfer of real estate; and the object he had in view in bringing the subject under the consideration of the Legislature in the shepe of a resolution, was to invite &n expression of opinion as to how far the system should be carried into operation at present, in order that the government mi^ht make the requisite provision in the estimates. He conceived that it was of great importance that the system should be tried under favorable circumstances. In South Australia, where an analogous system had been introduced by Mr. Torrens, the lawyers, almost to a'man, appeared to have set their faces against it, and had brought their ingenuity, aided by the decisions of the Bench to break down the system. The difficulties raised, however, appeared to have been removed by legislation, and the last report he had seen from Mr. Torrens stated that in five years he expected that every title in South Australia would be submitted voluntarily to the operation of his system In New Zealand he believed the provinces generally were favorable to the system, even the legal profession, who were of liberal minds, supporting it; but in one or two provinces he believed there was a feeling against it. The government was prepared to try the system in one or more of the provinces where public opinion was favorable to it—probably Otago and Canterbury, in the first instance, where it could be worked for a time under the eye of the Registrar-General. The feeling in Auckland, he understood, was that the present system worked very well, and so, thanks to the skill of the present Registrar, it did; but there were defects in the system even in Auckland which could not be remedied, and which ultimately must break the system down. In other provinces which had not had the advantage of the skill of Captain Kelly, it had already got into inextricable confusion, and some better system must be introduced into them. The government was not desirous of forcing it on any province which did not wish for it, and his (Mr. F.s) resolution provided that the provincial governments should be consulted in the matter. Mr. C. W. Richmond perfectly agreed with the motion of the honorable member at the head of the Government, except that one particular part •which made it subject to requisition of the Provincial Government; because that was a branch that was not supposed to have any knowledge ■whatever respecting real property, and therefore not an authority by which the opinions of members of the legal profession should be contravened. He did not consider it was either right or judicious to recommend that a deliberate Act of the General Assembly, such as the Registration of Deeds Amendment Act, should be transferred to the control of the Provincial Governments. An Act which proposed the repealing of a number of Provincial Ordinances should be under the control of the Governor and him only (hear, hear). It was true that provision had not been made to remove this from a Provincial Office but it was understood that it would be. made this session, and with reference to this clause he objected to such a power being handed over to the Provincial Governments (hear, hear). It was not undesirable to take the opinion of the Provincial Executive on the propriety or impropriety of bringing this Act into opera ion; but what he objected to was the proposal to make that opinion binding on a very important question, which belonged to the General Government. The Piovincial Governments could only have what might be considered an accidental knowledge on this question; and certainly it would be such as ought not to be put in direct competition with the knowledge and experience of her Majesty's Attorney-General in New Zealand (hear). It was doubtful whether the Provincial Governments were in a better position to give an opinion on this subject than the General Government could give, thpugh it in one sense only represented a part of the province. As he had before intimated it was well to hear all the Superintendents and their Executive Councils had to say in the matter, but he was decidedly opposed to allowing them to keep the power in their own hands, and for that reason he trusted the honorable member at the head of the Government would consent to omit the clause to which he had alluded (hear, hear). He also agreed with the honorable member that the difficulty in finding properly qualified persons to fill the office of Registrar in the provinces would be the cause of delay in putting the law in force. Perhaps these reasons did not so much apply to this province, as he understood that it was the intention to bring it into operation in the Auckland province. Mr. Fox said the Government had thousit of bringing the Act into operation first in the province of Otago. Mr. Richmond said the titles in Otago were in a dreadful state. The system in Otago had worked badly; as there was scarcely such . a thing as a marketable title in Otago, that province justified the Act being brought into operation at once, for anything would be better than the present confusion of titles at Otago. • Mr. Russell would support the motion of the honorable member at the head of the government. The honorable member who had just sat down referred to the manner in which the system ot registration had worked at Otago. The index book in that office had been constructed by the present clerk, the former system of index had been allowed to go into disuse by setting it on one side, and by the clerk adopting a system of his own. He conceived that if the powers proposed in the regulations were adopted, they would soon get the titles into a mess. What he desired was to see a law in force which would make the last deed the only real title to the property, which would be a great benefit to the Colony, and this done without the ruinous and dangerous form which was no »v about to be brought into use. In support of his opinion as to the objectionable powers embodied in the regulations, the honorable member read sev-ral extracts from them, and proceeded to say that these functions set aside the decision of a Jury and placed the responsibility over property where it should not exist, it gave powers over the real estate of deceased persons, which powers ought to be vested ia the Supreme Court. The success of this system would mainly depend on the Government being able to procure properly qualified persons as District Registrars, who should be real first-rate property lawyers, and at present they had not

many of these men in New Zealand, who would take this office for the salary which would be sXtacbed to it (heav, hear). Any alterations which were made in the present system of registration in this province should be to the effect that for the future all old deeds should be got rid of, and the last deed the only title to the property. Though he objected to the regulations, he should support the act, and endeavor to carry it out.

Mr. Stafford said he agreed with the Government in believing that that measure should be introduced in a tentative manner, but he would much regret if any unnecessary delay occurred in giving it a fair trial (hear, hear). There were not perhaps more than a dozen people in this colony who were really competent to pronounce on its merits, and so far as he was aware, they all agreed on the principle of the Act, aud desired to see it carried into effect. It had been stated that some members of the legal profession were opposed to it, but the opposition of those gentlemen might be attributable to other grounds than the unsuitability of the measure. On the other hand it had with, he believed, one exception received the support of evtry member of the legal profession who had a seat in that house when the Act was under the considera- [ tion of the legislature. But while he agreed with I the honorable gentleman at the head of the government as to the propriety of introducing the new law carefully and by degrees, he could not recognise the expediency of not bringing it into operation in any particular province unless the Superintendent wished it. However desirable it might be, and undoubtedly frequently was, to confer with the Superintendents of Provinces on some matters relating to the administration of the Government of the colony, there was certainly no reason for doing so in the present case, while there were many reasons against it (hear). A Superintendent could not possess any special fitness for deciding what should be the laws affecting real property ; nor would it be right for the General Government to shield itself from the responsibility of not carrying a beneficial law into effect, under the plea that some Superintendent objected to it. The General Government, as responsible to the General Legislature, which had passed the law in question, and which alone could legislate on the subject, must be answerable to the Legislature for giving effect to the law. And if, as he believed was the case, the present Government, equally with the late Government, considered the New Land Registry Act calculated to work beneficially, they should not be debarred, as they would be by the terms of the motion, if passed without the amendment of the honorable member for New Plymouth, from bringing it into operation so soon as it was practicable to do so in any or every part of the colony. This was all the more necessary, as it was most essential that there should be a uniformity throughout the colony on so important a subject as that of the laws which determined how | the ownership of property was to be determined. With the boundary lines of provinces intersecting [ private properties, it would be absurd and improper that part of ths same estate should be dealt with by one law, part by another, merely because the superintendent of one of the nine provinces of New Zealand should decline to introduce the new law into that province, when it was in operation in every other part of the colony. He should, therefore support the amendment of the honorable member for New Plymouth. Mr. Fox, in reply, said he would acquiesce in the suggestion of the honorable member for New Plymouth, and amend his resolution so far, though of course the Government would in practice confer with the Provincial Governments on the subject. The honorable member for Auckland City East (Mr. Russell) had treated the subject much as the amiable member of the Society of Friends treated the dog whose destruction he desired t" compass— ' I will not hurt a hair of thy head, but I will give thee a bad name ;' well knowing that to give a dog a bad name was the safe way to consign him to the halter. In like manner, the honorable member declared he had no desire to oppose the system of registration of title, but he took care to cast every impediment in its way, and gave it as bad a name as he himself could. After all, however, he could only point out two particulars in which regulations of the Registrar-General were open to criticism, and those did not amount to much. He urged that the case put by Mr. Sewell, as existing at Auckland, was an extreme case. He (Mr. F.) admitted it might be at present, but let a few years pass by, and it would be common enough, both at Auckland and everywhere else. .The other particular in which the honorable member criticised the regulations was absolutely without foundation. He exclaimed loudly against the enormous power given to the District Registrars without appeal, and particularly in the matter of intestate parties, unto whose administrators, so far as their real estate was concerned, the regulations turned them. He (Mr. F.) was astonished at the honorable member. Had he ever read the act on which he was commenting ? Why, there is a specific clause giving an appeal from the decision of the District Registrar, by summoning to the Supreme Court in every possible case, and in the largest possible terms. Such feeble criticism was the highest possible testimony to the regulations. If the honorable member, who was himself a lawyer, as the representative of the opponents of the new system, had nothing more to say, there was very little fault to be found. The honorable member then concluded by congratulating the country on the prospect of escaping the vast mass of accumulated evil and difficulty which had gathered round the subject at home, and on the. position New Zealand was in to prevent, in such cases, rather than cure. Mr. Fitzherbeht rose and was proceeding to address the house on this question, but was prevented by

The Speaker rising and observing that as the honorable member did not appear to understand the rules of the house, it became his duty to inform him that as the honorable member in charge of the motion had replied the debate had closed except for mere explanation. Mr. FrrzHERBERT said he was not the only member who did not understand the rules of the house—he was about to make a few remarks, but he must refrain from doing so. The Speaker said that the honorable member having replied, the debate was over, and that honorable members would find this rule was laid down in the standing orders of the house.

Tlie motion (as amended by Mr. C. W. Richmond in leaving out the words—'That it ought not for the present to be established in any province, except on the requisition of the Provincial Government. That subject to these provisoes ") was put and carried. International Exhibition. Mr. Wells moved that in the opinion of this house it is desirable that the appointment of commissioners in the province of Nelson, for the International Exhibition in 1862, be re-considered by the Government, with a view of amending the same, either by adding to its number or otherwise. The honorable member, in putting his motion on paper, had no objections whatever to the individual settlers who had been selected for the province of Nelson ; but at the same tirrie, in nominating the gentlemen, a due regard should be paid to the habits, tastes, and occupations of those who were to form this commission to ensure its being carried out more completely ami properly. Such gentlemen should have been nominated who had devoted their attention to the natural products of the country (hear, hear), those who had evinced their zeal in seeking out the natural productions of the province of Nelson, as it was well known that she was rich in such productions. Mr. Colenso had much pleasure in seconding the motion. He had listened to the just remarks of the honorable member who had just sat down. The Nelson province should be more particularly represented in this matter, on account of the name which she bore for her peculiar geological productions (hear, hear), in fact he* himself wasaware that a variety of valuable minerals did really abound in that province—perhaps more so than in any other province in New Zealand (hear, hear), hence the necessity for her being properly represented in this respect. At the same time in making these remarks he had no desire to trespass on the rights of the General Government, or to find fault with their selection (hear, hear). Now

in reference to the province which he had the honor to represent, Hawke's Bay, he had no fault to find with the selection of the four or five persons to represent it, except that they resided all of them in one place, while there were others in other localities who had given there attention to these matters omitted, which caused him to concluile that there was sonu* tuiMi in the honorable member's remarks as regarded the province of Nelson.

Mr. Curtis raised objection to the Government nomination, on account of its omission of persons eminently qualified to do justice to the commission. Mr. Stafford was at a loss to know upon what plan the Government had been guided in the selection of the gentlemen to represent Nelson in this matter. He must express that it was with no little surprise, he saw the nomination of the honorable member at the head of the Government. Mr. Fox begged to inform the honorable member for Nelson, that this part of the business was done during the term of office of the late Colonial Secretary (laughter). Mr. Stafford : O yes; by Dr. Featherston. Mr. Fox bowed assent. Mr. Stafford in speaking of that gentleman, though he might differ from himself on political questions, he was equally desirous of rendering his' aid to everything which tended to the joint prosperity of the country (hear, hear), and that she should be properly represented with regard to her mineral productions, &c, in the coming Exhibition (hear, hear). But he also believed that that honorable gentleman labored under a disadvantage in naming the persons for Nelson, persons who were really acquainted with her rich productions of gold, copper, tin and other ores, which when properly worked would become valuable property. It was well known that a large quantity of the various ores existed in that province (hear, hear). Mr. Stafford proceeded to speak of a number of gentlemen, residents in Nelson and its vicinity, who had taken a great interest in these matters, and who had evinced, great anxiety, and had been at considerable trouble and expense in forwarding everything of this kind, and in passing, he awarded to each his peculiar qualification ; aivl remarked that from their former habits, tastes, and studies, they were eminently qualified to represent Nelson in this affair, but who had not been nominated by the Government—the names of these gentlemen are as annexed, Messrs. Adams, Oswald Curtis, Maxwell Bury, Filzgibbon, Redwood, the present Superintendent, and Dr. Monro. He knew that it would be said by the Government that these gentlemen could send their contributions to the Exhibition though they had not been included in the list of commissioners; but anything sent in this way would not create the same interest as if they were connected with the commission. In reference to one of the gentlemen selected by the Government, he doubted whether he had ever been farther from Nelson than Massacre Bay. Mr. Fox could not undertake to say that the Government would adopt the whole list mentioned by the honorable gentleman. It was not their intention to interfere with those already nominated, but they might add such other names as were considered advisable, to make the present list more complete (hear, hear). He would remind the honorable member that in his recommendations he had omitted his own name. Mr. Stafford replied that it was most probable that he would be for some time at Otago, and if so, he would not be able to render any further assistance. Motion carried. New Provinces Act. Mr. Wilson, in moving for leave to bring in a bill to amend the New Provinces Act, begged to inform the house that the two amendments which were intended by this Bill were, that the number 150, as required to make the application, should be altered to 250, and that the petition be published for eight weeks, once a week, in some public newspaper in the mother town. He deprecated exclusiveness and selfishness, or, in other words, that because certain parties had acted in accordance with their own inclination, they should turn round and say that their neighbors should be prevented from acting in a similar manner; —he did deprecate in this the 19th century any such argument as that he had mentioned. The slight alterations he proposed to make, precluded any lengthened argument on the subject. Mr. Hall seconded the motion. Mr. Fitzherbert said it appeared there was a desire that no discussion should be held on this bill. He considered under present circumstances the bill could only be entertained by honorable members, as a matter of country was involved (hear, hear). A large number of members had gone away with an understanding that no fresh bills on matters of importance would be introin during the remainder of the session, and he considered that compact ought not to be broken with impunity. He would reiterate the statement, that a step of this kind, in the absence of those honorable members, was a breach of courtesy towards them (no, no).

Mr. C. W. Richmond : To what breach of compact does the honorable member allude ? Mr. Fitzherbert said he was going to say, but he was interrupted, that it was understood that no new business of any importance would be introduced after those honorable members had left. He thought the members of the Government were at least aware of this.

Mr. C. W. Richmond did not admit that such an understanding was binding on him, as he had been no party to it. Mr. Wilson rose and explained that the honorable the Colonial Secretary was not aware of his (Mi-. W.s) intention to bring in the bill till last nigh*. Mr. Fxtzherbert admitted the right of the honorable gentleman to bring in any bill he pleased in the absence of honorable members—he was bound to s-ate this —but be would also say something more. He would appeal to the honorable member who had made use of this argument that he deprecated the idea of any person enjoying a privilege he was not prepared to allow to his neighbor also, and he begged to ask him whether or not the bringing in of this bill at this time did not, to a certain degree, amount to a breach of faith with absent members. If his argument was good in one point it ought to be good in another. He prayed the House would defer further discussion on this matter till a proper occasion, as he felt certain in his own mind that some of the members would not have gone off, had they been aware that a bill in relation to the New Provinces Act, although in a modified form, would have been brought in. He was hound to state that a bill in another shape with reference to the New Provinces Act should have been introduced, yet if honorable members had been aware that the subject was to have been brought on a third time, in a thin house, they would not have gone away. He did hope and trust the honorable member would not press his motion.

Mr. Fox : There appeared to be some misunderstanding on the two sides of the house. What had fallen from the honorable member for Nelson (Mr. Stafford) was, that if the Government did not introduce any new measure of importance, or any additional legislation to that which was already before the house, so far as the Ministerial seats were concerned, no advantage would be taken in the absence of members from that side of the house (hear, hear, from the Opposition Benches). As regards this bill, he thought it was an exceptional one. It was still open to the Government to proceed with their bill (hear, hear). The Government had not made up its mind as to whether it would proceed with the New Provinces Bill, as the house was aware that they could proceed with it if they thought proper. He did not think the Government were absolutely bound either one way or the other, and the honorable member referred to what had occurred in another place, that owing to the peculiar circumstance of one vote having been given in a certain way, the bill had been lost (hear, hear). As regards this measure, it did not mean suspension or repeal, but modified tho circumstances so as to apply to the honorable member's own particular province —to increase the number, &c, as applied to Timaru. It-would

have no effect as regarded Auckland, Wanganui, Nelson, and other places. On that ground he thought it wa9, to a certain extent, a useless measure, but if the honorable member would fix the number at 10,000 or 1000, if lie wished to put a general exemption to its operation equal to ifs total repeal, it would be a different anSiir, but bo questioiu-d wbctbor lie could support it without doing an absolute injustice to the province he represented (hear, heai).

Mr. Fitzherbert again rose and objected to the proceedings, as many members had gone away who would not have left had they been aware that such a bill was about to be introduced this session (oh, oh !). He stated this fact of his own knowledge. He felt confident that several members would not have left this house had they been aware of anything of the kind.

Mr. Stafford would support the motion as a matter of courtesy, reserving to himself the liberty to take any course he might think proper as to the second re id ing. As a matter of courtesy he felt bound to allow the finst reading of bills. He did not remember that this house had ever refused to give leave to introduce a bill, though another branch of the Legislature had done so. Ho trusted that act was a mistake. He thought common courtesy should be accorded generally in allowing a bill to be read a first time; although he would remind the honorable gentleman that he might feel unable to support the bill in its future stages. He would now refer to what he had said on a former occasion, to which-several allusions had been made, as he found that both sides of the house had taken quite a different view of his meaning (hear, hear). What he did say was in reference to a motion that was on the paper just before the departure of the Airedale steamer last month ; and the question which gave rise to his remarks was as to the probale time when the business of the session would be brought to a I close. lie felt convinced that it could not be gone through in the time mentioned, and that the .session would not therefore close so early as was anticipated by some honorable members. He stated that there were twenty-seven bills before the Legislature, in addition to the Estimates; there was also one or two other questions; that they were not going to take any further steps with the view of removing those gentlemen from their seats; that the late vi>te was conclusive for the session so far as any ministerial want of confidence was j concerned; that if six or seven horiori able members who were supporters of the present government were to leave by the steamer, he and his friends would take no advantage of it. Mr. Ward remarked that this was not a government measure; it had reference to the threatened vote for the separation of Timaru. Mr. Richmond had heard the remarks of the honorable member for the Hutt, he might say with indignation, but certainly not with surprise. The New Provinces Act was looked upon as a most difficult subject. It was not to be expected that any such measure should come before the house in a perfect state. Everything in the shape of amendment was opposed by a certain sectionMr. Fox : Was not this the first amendment' i Mr. Richmond : There was a certain section of the house who would not permit any amendment. Mr. Taylor fully concurred in the objections offered to this bill, in the absence of so many members of the house. The impression on the minds of those members when they went away was, that no important measure would be considered in their absence. There was one-fifth of the whole number away. He himself had a notice, which he thought was on a most important question, relative to the dissolution of the Provincial Councils, and it was on that account that he did not proceed with it. He trusted the honorable member, Mr. Wilson, would also refrain from proceeding with his bill on these grounds ; if the honorable member did not withdraw ho should oppose it. Mr. Colenso thought it was much more merciful to say no at first, than to allow a bill to proceed to a certain stage with a view of then defeating it. He must agree with the honorable member for the Hutt, though he did not say so in plain words, that no important measure should be brought forward in the absence of so many honorable members. Without going into details, he understood that the basis of the amendment proposed by this bill was—first, that the number 150 should be increased to 250, and eight weeks' publication of the application. This was a most important alteration. Mr. Harrison said with regard to the New Provinces Act he must declare that he always had the strongest aversion to it (hear, hear) ; indeed he had a great horror of it. This bill was not for repealing the act, but merely to throw difficulties in its way by subjecting it to a higher qualification. Mr. Carleton said with regard to what had been said about a compact between the government and the opposition for the remainder of the session, he believed it was precisely as the honorable member for Nelson had stated it to the house (hear, hear). The honorable member for New Plymouth seemed to complain of the objections which had been raised against amending the New Provinces Bill, though it had been admitted that the bill was as bad as it possibly could be. The objections to amending that act came from the late ministry when they were in power (hear, hear). When they were asked whether they were prepared to introduce amendments, they replied they were not. Nor were they willing to repeal it. And now they were in favor of amendments when they could not be carried. Mr. OaatoND would support the first reading of the Bill: and in doing so lie did not consider himself in any way pledged to it. Mr. Wilson begged to observe that the amendments were not applicable to any particular case; and, if he knew his own heart, they were, not so intended. But other persons, it appeared, knew his heart better than himself. He (Mr. Wilson) was no party to any compact, nor could he see that it was just that one-fifth or sixth should hold a kind of despotism over the house, and prevent business from being transacted by those that remained, because this fifth or sixth portion forsooth wanted to look after their private business (hear, hear). There were a great many independent members of this house whom he could not-carry with him if he altered the number; he thought he had better leave it at 250.

Motion agreed to. Bill brought up, read a first time, ordered to be printed, and to be read a second time on next sitting day.

The Gardkn.—All recently planted things, whether large or small, should be well secured against wind. The best way of effecting this in the case of large plants is to use three strong tarred cords for each specimen, fixing them to the plant by means of a collar made of strong metallic wire and thickly wrapped round with canvas to prevent its injuring the bark, and then tying them to strong stakes driven into the ground at proper distances from the stem of the tree. For specimens in prominent situations metallic wires should be employed instead of cords, being neater in appearance, and, although somewhat expensive in the first instance, they will last a lifetime.

Fleuropneumonia.—The following specific for this ravaging malady among cattle haa been published in the Canterbury papers:—Take 2 ounces of chloride of potash, and dissolve it in 1 quart of water, then sweetened with honey. To be given in two doses daily till well: the doses should be mixed fresh every morning for the day. For a very clear account of the symptoms of the disease the reader is referred to au article on the subject in our next.

A Nugget.—A Maryborough paper states that a party of three New Zealanders, fossicking in some shallow ground in Ironbark-gully, Tarnagulla, succeeded in bringing to light a nugget which, after cleaning, weighed 7l£ ounces of the pure metal. The successful miners have been very unfortunate lately, in fact, were short of the common necessaries of life, and this little stranger was consequently joyfully welcomed. :