NO-CONFIDENCE DEBATE.

Te Aroha News, Volume VIII, Issue 487, 9 July 1890, Page 4

NO-CONFIDENCE DEBATE.

Wellington, July 4. On the House assembling yesterday afternoon, the adjourned debate on the amendment to going into Committee of Supply was resumed by Mr Kerr (Motueka), who was greeted with Opposition cheers. He twitted the Government with not having put up a man to reply to the member for St. Albans, and offered to give place to a Ministerial supporter now. This generous offer was not accepted, and Mr Kerr proceeded to traverse the policy of the Government. Ho thought the Premier had been put in a wrong position, and that the Opposition had been wronged by the course pursued. If the Premier was not capable of doing his duty on the floor of the House ho had no right to maintain office. When Sir Julius Vogel was ill in bed, and unable to come to the House, the Opposition actually refused to pair him, and said all sorts' of nasty things about him. (The Hon. Mr Mitchelson hero interjected : “ That is quite untrue.”) He gave the Government credit for their efforts to open up the country. Mr Hobbs, who responded on behalf of the Government, said he had no confidence in the leader of the Opposition that he would carry out the policy expressed by his amendment, even if it were carried. Touching the primage duty, the Opposition, no doubt, took advantage of the well-known intention of many Government supporters to oppose the continuation of this impost, and for the Opposition to raise the question of retrenchment was a perfect farce after the failure of the last administration in that respect. So far as the desirability of abolishing the property lax was concerned, the Hon. Mr Ballance last year stated that he did not see how they could do without the property tax. (Hon. Mr Ballance : “ No.”) Before the members of the Opposition sought to disturb the incidence of taxation they should be in a position to show how the deficiency was to be met. He maintained there were no two questions as to the success of the land administration of the present Government. If the Opposition were in earnest about retrenchment they should have brought down a motion to reduce estimates by £50,000 or £IOO,OOO. They were now on the eve of the expiry of Parliament, and it was their duty to get through the business in a business-like way and then go to the country. When Mr Hobbs concluded his speech, there was no response from the other side of the House,and the question was put that the House should go into Committee of Supply. By this time the House was more than half empty, and the ayes had a decided predominance. The division bell was then rung and the members flocked to their seats, the unexpected collapse of the debate having caused considerable surprise. The question was once more put, and on a division being taken it was found that the amendment had been defeated by 6, the ayes being 58, and noes 32. The division list was as follows : For the Government (38) Ayes : Allen Moat Arthur Monk Bruce Newman Bryce O’Conor Cowan Peacock Dodson Rhodes Fergus Ross Hall Russell Harkness Samuel Hislop Saunders Hobbs Seymour Hodgkinson Stewart, W.D. Humphreys (Dunedin West) Izard Tanner Lawry Thompson. It. (VJarsMacarbhur den) Mackenzie (Mount Thompson, T. (AuckJda) land North) Marchanb Whyte” McGregor Wilson Mitchelson Withy For the Opposition (32) Noes : Ballance Lance Barron Larnnch Blake Loughrey Buxton 2 McKenzie (WaiCadman hemo) Duncan Moss Fish Perceval Fitchetb] Reeves (Inangahua) Fitzherbert Richardson, E. (IvaiFraser apoi) Goldio Smith Green Stewart (Waimate) Guinness Taylor Hutchison Turnbull” Joyco Verrall Kelly Walker Kerr Ward t ■< 27 Pairs. For the Government : Anderson Richardson, G. F. Against the Government: Feldwick Grimmond A largo number of members had left the House, expecting the debate to continue at all events into the evening, and when the division was taken they found themselves locked out. The debate was continued upon the main question,that the House go into Committee of Supply. Mr Fish (Dunedin South) congratulated the Opposition on the result of the division in that the Government had allowed a strong impeachment of the policy to pass unchallenged without having made any reply whatever to the charges levolled against them. There %vas nothing whatever in the Financial Statement that deserved the name of a policy. Mr Fish also condemned the recent appointments to the Public Works Department, and urged that there should yet be considerable retrenchment without resorting to the lopping oil'of salaries of any officer who was really required. . The proposals made for the settlement, and roading of Crown lands, he said, were unworkable. He strongly opposed the property tax, and maintained that it might have easily been modified one-six-teenth of a penny. He was satisfied that the money raised by the primage duty was nob required for school buildings and asylums, and urged that in any case such expenditure should be provided out of tbe consolidated fund. If the revenue was insufficient to provide for it, it should be provided bj further retrenchment. He also spoke strongly against the Premier retaining olfice°while unable to take part in the business of the House.

Mr Peacock, who followed, said it was very refreshing indeed to hear the statements made by the Hon. Mr Ballance with regard to the necessity for retrenchment, after the action taken by the late Government, of which the leader of the Opposition was a member. During the last year there had been retrenchment amounting to £291,000. The cry for retrenchment and the appeal against the property tax made by the Opposition were merely electioneering dodges. With reference to the surplus the Hon. Mr Ballanco claimed that as there was a balance of £36,000 at the beginning of the year, therefore the £115,000 claimed was not a true Hurplus, but this was a very erroneous con elusion. Mr Peacock also expressed surprise at the conduct of the Opposition in endeavouring to discredit the unquestionable progress that had been made in the

colony during the past year. He did nob see how Mr Ballance could be indignant because of the Government proposing to devote a portion of the North Island Trunk loan bo the purchase of native lands, when Mr Ballance himself was tho first to propose that £IOO,OOO should be taken from the North Island Trunk loan for that purpose, and he (Mr Peacock) voted against it. Passing on to the speech made by the member for St. Albans, Mr Peacock questioned tbe genuineness of dummyism and the charges made in reference to the purchase of land for settlement in Canterbury. The party now in opposition, when in power admitted . that they could not do without the property tax, and their utmost efforts in the direction of retrenchment amounted to £20,000, against £290,000 retrenched by the present Government. In conclusion he urged that it was the duty of the House to pass certain necessary legislation and tiro estimates before dissolving. After the evening adjournment the Hon. Mr Bryco took up the debate. He said when ho learned that the member for Wanganui was going to propose a want of confidence motion he recognised that he would be compelled, whatever were the terms of any such resolution proposed by the hon. gentlemen and supported by the supporters, to oppose the resolution. Tho hon. gentleman, he thought, was the last member in the House that ought to complain of the neglect to retrench in the Government programme. He had offered no example or proof as to how retrenchment was to be made, and it was difficult to understand how any such clause could find a place in any amendment moved by the member for Wanganui. The hon. gentleman complained of them having a Premier outside of the House, but he did notseemto realise the fact that they also had a leader of the Opposition outside of the House. (Laughter.) Dealing with the speech made by the member for St. Albans, Mr Bryce urged that it was a remarkable fact that ho had not denied that the Government had really made considerable retrenchment. Speaking of the Financial Statement, Mr Bryce thought the feeling produced in the House and throughout the colony was, that it was a document of unusual ability, which would bo a record for all time. Nevertheless, he did nob look at the condition of the colony as represented in the Financial Statement, bub the statement was so clear and complete that he who knew how to read it could oasily gather the condition of the country from it. The present Government were only responsible for the condition of the colony beI cause they were the present exponents of j that policy which was the policy > of the colony, and whatever views lie now expressed were expressed in that light. Our command of borrowed money was passing away and a clear balance would never bo, available again, and this being conceded it was obvious the colony was approaching a very critical point in her history. Having now to rely upon our resources it was necessary that public men and the public of the colony should understand the true position of 1 he colon}'. There could be no more laudable cause for borrowing than to open up the Crown lands for settlement, but even in that respect the Government did nob recommend further borrowing. So far, so well, bub notwithstanding all their words, the steady policy of the country as distinguished from tho policy of the Government was leading them straight up to another loan or worse, and they were going to borrow in an indirect way which was very objectionable (Opposition cries : “ Hear, hear !”) From this point of view the surplus of £115,000 was not a real surplus, except so far as the present year and the present accounts went, but taking the future as well as the present he denied its validity, but tho : surplus did not indicate that the taxation of tho country was more than tho ordinary expenditure of the country, and the Treasurer himself had frankly called attention to this very matter. There was no concealment of th 6 position in any part of the Statement, bub he complained that the mode by which they were to arrive at a sound finance was nob indicated. Mr Bryce next read over a lengthy list of items which in future would have to be made chargeable on the revenue instead of loan, and said that although this was clearly indicated in tbe Financial Statement the means whereby that end was to be attained were not set forth. Speaking of the land fund, as a matter of account, he said it was pretty clear that it was insolvent, and had been insolvent for tho last five years, and he admitted it would be a reasonable thing to take this deficiency from the surplus in the face of such a position. That revenue was notsnfficienttomeet present expenditure, nob to speak of future expenditure. He could nob understand how the member for Wanganui came to propose such a resolution as he had done yesterday. He had nob lost faith in the position of New Zealand by any means. He felt sure a condition of prosperity was coming, and urged that it was the duly of the legislators bo see that they did not retard it. Mr Hutchison rose on tho Opposition side of (he House, and made a caustic reply to the speech made by the member for Waipa. What the Opposition said was nob that they should reduce the revenue of the country, but that they should reduce the taxation. The tone adopted by Mr Bryco was hopeless, but he found various items of expenditure in which savings could be made of over £IOO,OOO, taking only three items: contingencies, permanent forces, and balanco of ’Frisco mail services. Tho permanent staff of civil servants had increased throughout the colony from 7,393 to 7,505 during the last year, while the population had been consistently decreasing. The Financial Statementwas nob an honest Statement, for while it suggested that the finance of the colony was sound it introduced them to a situation with which this Government was unable to grapple. The member for Ponsonby had drawn n comparison between the expenditure of tho late Stoub-Vogel and the present Atkinson Ministry, and on the face of the authorised statement of accounts there appeared to have been a decrease of £291,410. There were, however, subsidies to local bodies, rates on Crown lands, and interest paid upon public debt to be deducted from the present revenue, and the result was that there was actually a balance of £334,075 in favour of the Stout Yogel regime. After tho speech from the Hon. member for Waipa, he thought tho Government could discard the alleged surplus. Mr Hutchison next touched on the question of defence, opposing the additional expenditure; and passing on to the question of colonial federation he said that it was neither desirable nor to the advantage of this colony to federate with Australia. He complained of the enormous cost of raising a two - million loan, and estimated that £IIO,OOO had been spent in raising the same. Mr Hutchison made a vigorous attack upon tho Treasurer for advancing money to meet the interest falling due on the New Plymouth Harbour Board loan. There were, he said, five and a-half millions falling due within the twenty-four months in addition to £250,000 loans to local bodies for which no provision had been made. He amused the Opposition

immensely by charging the Colonial Treasurer with collaring tho sinking fund and including it in his surplus, lie asserted that within two years this colony would have to finance millions on the London market, and added that he was not surprised at the illness of the Colonial Treasurer. Ho regretted that there were men on the Government bonches whose conduct' could not be described in Parliamentary language, gentlemen who were hand in glove with the bank for which the interests of this colony had been sacrificed. They were now asked to vote supplies for the fourth year to a moribund Government, but he felt confident that whatever might be tbe state ot parties inside ot the House, they certainly would not have a majority at the hustings of the next general election. (Applause.) The Hon. Mr Fergus followed with a speech on the Government side. He took exception at the outset to the assertioe made that the money raised by tho primags duty was not a reserve, and gave it as hid own conviction that whatever was raisen from the people by taxation must be regarded as a reserve. Tho deficiency in the land fund was stated to be £45,000, bub this fund should properly be credited with £25,000 paid in scrip for forest planting, and £27,000 deficiency in revenue left by the late Treasurer, and therefore thore remained a sum of £33,000 to tire credit of the year’s transactions. He denied that there was any breach of agreement in the proposal made with reference to the primage duty. The Government proposed to ask the House to give them authority to use the primage duty for two years longer for specific objects, but if the House was not prepared to agree to this course the Government would not press it. The school accommodation in the colony, however, was notoriously insufficient, and in the interests of our children it was most desirable that provision should be made for their extension. The Hon. Mr Fergus went on to refer to the advance made to the New Plymouth Harbour Board, and charged the Hon. Mr Ballance with having, while in office, consented to money being lent for this very purpose. (Mr Ballance here interjected that the question was whether the Joan was made legaLly or illegally). Whether the advance was made legally or illegally, Mr Fergus said, was merelyaquestion whetherthcNew Plymouth Harbour Board asks for loan or nob. He charged theHon.Mrßallancethat he andhis Government were the first to divert money borrowed for the construction of tho North Island Trunk Railway for various purposes, increasing the value of lands and blocking settlement, and that ccrlain natives in the North Island had suffered a grievous injustice from the administration of the hon. gentleman. As to the statement made that the Native Department should be abolished, he had before him the statement by one of the judges that there was work for the whole of them for years to come. He had previously explained why the Public Works Department could nob be entirely abolished while there remained loan money to be expended, and lie thought it unnecessary to return to this matter. As a matter of fact, he said the bulk of the expenditure indulged in by the present Government was to meet engagements entered into by the leader of the Opposition when Minister for Defence, because of the extraordinary state of funk into which he was plunged by the late war scare. As to tho federation proposals made by tbe Government. he said they had stood too much aloof in the past, and if they consulted their own interests, they would take an active part in all matters concerning the interests of the Islands of the Southern Seas. As to the so-called illegal appointments referred to, the leader of the Opposition was complaining of an exactly similar thing to that which had been previously done by tbe hon. gentleman himself. lle the exodus of population, lie contended it was attributable to the cessation of borrowing and die public works, both of which a certain class of people followed naturally. In conclusion, lie urged that every membor of tho present Parliament was entitled to sit there until the very last day had expired. As for the argument of tho member for Waipa in reference to the surplus, he could not see why the Treasurer should be called upon to provide for tho next year, and regarding tho insinuations made in reference to certain financial institutions, he thought they were unworthy of notice. Major Steward book up the running for die Opposition shortly after II p.m. He urged tliat the £20,000 deficit in 1888 should be charged to the present Ministry, and not to tho Stout-Vogel Ministry, and went on to point out discrepancies between tho conclusions arrived at by Ministers as to the actual amount of the surplus. He ventured to say that if an opportunity were afforded bo the Opposition, the reductions they asserted could bo made would bo made. Major Steward also referred to the recent changes in the Police Department, and said he understood this would involve an application for increase of salary. (The Hon. Mr Hislop: “A saving of £4oo.’’) He considered the question of whether or not there was a surplus as of small importance compared with tho settlement of tho land of the colony, and claimed that so long as there was an exodus from the colony, the Govern nient was nob doing its duty in this matter.

On the motion to go into Committee of Supp’y, tbe debate was resumed on tho House assembling yesterday afternoon by Mr Rhodes (Geraldine). He explained that be gave his vote in favour of the Government in the' recent division, nob because he was an ardent supporter of the Ministry, but because lie preferred to have the present Government in office than a party led by tho member for Wanganui. He dealt chiefly with the land questions, and expressed his willingness to empower tho Government to utilise a portion of the North Island trunk loan to borrow for the purchase of native land. 110 also expressed the hope that all subsidies for mail services would be stopped. Mr Blake (Avon), who was the next speaker, said ho was glad to see how speedily the Hon. Mr Ballance’s amendment was disposed of yesterday. He thought the great question they had to consider was the desirability of altering the incidence of taxation. Ho ridiculed the proposals made in view of taking away the £SOO exemption under tho property tax, and urged that it was much wealthier concerns that it was desirable to get at. He said almost all the large estates were low in improved values. The county of Manukau paid eight per cent, on the improved valuo, the county of Eden paid seventy per cent, on tho improved value, and he did not wonder that ratepayers were found objecting to such a system of taxation. The property tax was originally imposed as an education rate, and as such he maintained that it ought to -bo collected locally in any case. He thought certain largo steamship companies should be made to pay their fair oharo of the tax.

Mr Allen (Dunedin East) charged the speakers on the Opposition side of the House with speaking in an adverse way to proposals made by their leader when introducing bis amendment, especially in reference to the property tax. He also charged the leader of the Opposition with inconsistency in liia arguments and in-

sincerity in his proposals for retrenchment. He regarded it as utterly absurd to suppose that if the property tax and primage duty were done away with by further retrenchment other taxes would nob have to be imposed in their stead. Referring to the surplus, Mr Allen said that while there had been omitted by the Treasurer the sinking fund on Government loans to local bodies and the amount chargeable against New Plymouth Harbour Board as pointed out by the leader of the Opposition, there were two other items which he could have fairly taken credit for, viz., the property in the Public Trustee’s office, which had nob been brought into account, amounting to over £5,000, and two months of primago duty would be collected, amounting to over £9,000 ; while the liabilities at the end of the year were £5,000 less than at the end of the previous year. Ho considered the purchasing of native lands out of the North Island Trunk loan a perfectly reasonable proposal, and that the acquirement of land along the line of route was the best assurance that could bo had for the completion of that railway. He feared that the colony was drifting towards another loan, and urged that money must not be raised in this way. It should be raised openlyin the British market, and not as loans to local bodies.

Mr Walker (Ashburton) referred to Mr Bryce as one to whom a large number of members were looking for guidance, and who was probably posing as the coming leader of the party on the other side of the House, and entered a strong disclaimer against the charges of insincerity made against tho Opposition, lie asserted that out of eight or more proposals made in the Financial Statement more than half depended on further borrowing. Mr Marchanb (Taranaki), who also spoko atconsiderablo length, amongst other tilings advocated a fair trial of Vaile’s railway scheme.

Mr Ward (Invercargill) took up the argument on tho Opposition side of the House, shortly before nine o'clock, and spoko for over an hour, traversing the whole policy of tho Go\ eminent. He did nob forget the ’Frisco service, and said the colony would act wisely in following the example set by New South Wales in dropping the subsidy to this line altogether. Mr T. McKenzie, amongst other things, took the Government to task for increasing salaries, especially the heads of departments in Wellington, He had supported tho present Government because ho thought it better to bear the ills they had than to fly to others that they know not of. The debate was ad journed at 11.30 p.m. till 2.30 p.m. to-day, there still being a large number of members anxious to speak. THE FINANCIAL DEBATE. Tho debate on the Financial Statement wns resumed at 9 o’clock last evening, when Mr Verral, of State Bank fame, gob possession of the floor. He expressed the opinion that tho primage duty could be done away with, that retrenchment was easy, and that the administration of tho land had been a mistake. He then got on to the State Bank panacea, and explained how, according to his scheme, a great many financial difficulties could be overcome by the issue of paper money within the colony. After Mr Verral had spoken for about an hour, Mr Beetham took up the debato, and spoke till nearly 11 p.m. in support of the Government policy. He succeeded in almost emptying the House before 11 p.m., when the supper adjournment took place. On the House resuming Mr Grimmond moved the adjournment of the debate, and a division being called for the question was deckled in favour of the “noes” by 26 against 15, tho Government supporters voting against the adjournment. Dr. Hodgkinson commenced speaking at 11.30 p.m. and spoke until 12.10 a.m., when the House adjourned till 2.30 p.m. on Monday. The debate was weaiy and monotonous throughout and contained little or nothing that was new.