SIR GEORGE GREY IN REPLY.

Te Aroha News, Volume VI, Issue 373, 1 June 1889, Page 4

SIR GEORGE GREY IN REPLY.

Sir George Grey, replying to the deputation, said : Gentlemen, I should say that a great many years ago, I see in March, 1868 (referring to a publication con'aining one of his own speeches), I issued a pamphlet upon this very subject, which apparently awoke Ireland to life. That pamphlet produced a very great effect indeed. The motto with which I started was an observation made by Marcus Aurolius, that "If the State i 3 banned, there must not bo anger -with him who does harm fco the State ; show him whero his error is," and that I have steadily stuck to and adhered to, 1 think we should work upon that ba&is. Then 1 Would just go on to say that I think I conclusively proved thatlreland wasin a piteous stale. I advanced no opinion of my own, except so far as it was ba&ed upon information that I bad obtained, and I was thus in the possession of most valuable information as to the sfc*le of li'eland at that date, furnished by the Under-Socro-tary of State in Mr Gladstone's Government. He (the Under- Secretary of State) went to Ireland to make himself acquainted with the state of the counhy, and printed for the benefit of his friends and colleagues a most interesting statement of what he saw. It was altogether a terrible record, and it moved me so that I determined to try and aroute some public feeling upon the subject. I then pointed out that one of the great observers of the time who investigated the state of nearly all Europe had stated that, owing to the treatment which the Irish people had received by legislators, and by the conduct of large proprietors of land, the Irish peasantry bad been rendered} morally

and physically* bhe most unhappy men I on the eurfch. Ho was a great I friend of inino, and I heard all the' details from him. I determined to rouse myself to draw public attention to this state of things, and, I think this document that I hold in my hands conclusively showed that the misery ot tho Irish peasant and the peculiarities of his character Were traceable to bad governmont. An Irishman could fulfil nopositionof trust or honour (that is if he was a Catholic). The Bar was closed to him, and the army was closed to him, except in a certain rank, the navy was closed to him, and the Houso of Commons was closed to him j ho was, in fact, a degraded being 1 , whatever his social rank misrht be. So far as his faults go, it seems impossible that he could be subject to lawd of this kind, without their producing certain blemishes in his , character. Then if law produced tluee blemishes, only by contrary laws could another state ot things bo brought about. Until you make the Irishman a free man in every rospect I do not think you can raiso him in his own country to that high pitch of intellect in which he will be able to fulfil tho duties of life, to which ho ia capable of attaining. None of us can deny that from tho vory momont somo of tho worst of these laws were removed, and tho Irish people began to sproad over the world, that they at once came to tho front in almost every thing, into which they enteied. They became statesmen, orators and leading men in every way, showing that they possetsed the highest pos&iblo capacity. In tho time of their degradation they were our best soldiers, and our best tailors, in fact, they gave the groatest general we ever had to the army. They were distinguished in the lield of battlo and.in e\ery part of the world, and so far as they were allowed to take part in publicaffaiis, they hadcertainlydonetheir dutj in every possible way. Ireland being in this slato of misery, I then pointed out that evoiy day that was allowed to continue without somo steps being adopted for biinging about a better state of ailairs would make mutters worse ; that it was certain that England would suller, that English society would be disorganised, that this misciablo condition of the people would spread, and that they v. ould congiegato in the great towns wheie manufactories weic, that there would be paid a very low prico for their labour, and that the labourers of England would gradually be diagged down to the state in which the people of Ireland were. I then concl usi vety proved that u nle&s It eland were allowed to legislate upon all details, sho must ultimately sink into a stato of disorder and confusion. Every one of these things have really come to pass, and steps should be taken, not little by little, but at onco. to give Ireland legislative freedom. I agree with you that this is a mattor of Imperial concorn, because a very extraordinary sta'o of things has arisen, which I have never been sufliciently romaiked upon. What you will find to be the case is this, that a nation can never stand still for a single day. There is continually some change taking place each clay and each year, so that aftor going over a period of five or six years, you will tind every nation has considerably changed in many wayp. It is impossible, therefore, for lie' and to stand still. (Sir George here alluded to something of this kind v\ hich took place during the reign of Charles I, and proceeded). I feel certain in my own mind that we ha\ c entered upon exactly a bimilar peiiod, The Puritans of the time of Charles I. have become the Liberals of the whole Empire, and you will find amongst them an unceasing desive that a change may tako place in the old systems which have prevailed for some two or three centuries One ot the great changes dosired is a separate legislation on local subjects for diflerent districts. That appears to be augmenting and increasing. The present Government at Home had determined to enter upon a system of coercion, and they evidently thought that for a certain period of time they could hold Ireland, without any change whatever, and I do not see a chance of them allowing the people to do anything for themselves On tho contrary, I soe that they are opposed to anything of the kind, and I believp that Lord Salisbury is entirely mistaken in believing that he can by coercive laws prevent lieland from obtaining the legislative freedom which it desiiea fco have. For example, if wo look at the question of the death penalty for offences, there are various countiics which have done away with the penally of death, and such is the the hatied produced by one class when gieatreforms are required, that if anything like civ ildisturbanceshaveshown themselves as likely to break out, this penalty of death has been applied to those if not to other offences. In the same way, you will find that in Russia only very rocently for murder and other offences the death penalty was not inflicted, but absolutely for attending a meeting of over a certain number of persons for the discussion of political subjecto tho death penalty was imposed. Then you will find that the moment civil war broka out in Spain they repealed the law which had put an end to the death penalty, in order to punish political offenders. I have been looking into the question of the way in which prisoners have been tieated in lieland, and to my utter surprise I find that they have been subjected to every indignity and personal degradation by their political opponents, to punish them unduly. I read, for instance, an account i elating how one of the most noble and excellent men had been dealt with ; how, he having been put in gaol, they would not allow him to have any of the most common comforts ; they would not allow him to have a pocket handkerchief, a tooth brueh, or a hair brush. They took from him everything which contributed to his personal comfoit. He was ill, and required warm clothing, which was certified to bo necessary by a medical man. but oven his greatcoat was taken from him. All this evidently to degrade him, and to show contempt for a person who had dared to oppose them. I think it is impossible thafc this kind of hatied can be exhibited I for any length of time without leading ( ultimately to very serious disaster, and I really came away from England at the time I did from a belief that it was impossible to do anything there owing to the violenco of party feeling and the languaie men u«ed to ono another. I daresay you may all have remarked pnch language as his been used to J\Jr Gladstone from time to timo, and which would have been impossible twenty or thirty years ago, and this was simply because he had maintained opinions adverse to the po called great men of England. Here we arenot agitated by opposition of that kind, and I beiieve that by setting a good example on these subjects, fearlessly expressing our opinions always in gentlemanly terms, that ultimately the effect must be to produco upon the public of England a reformation coming from without and not from within. If the opposition paity hero hold a public meeting, I do not in tho least object to that, because J think that fair argument should bo heard on all sides. Evidently we are fighting on the side of humanity, charity and picy for our feJlowcoQiu We aro to gain no advantage

for oul-selv6B and many of us, as in my own oaeo, have quarrelled with our personal friends. I waa looking at one point which I brought forward in England in which poor Irish peasant children had absolutely within a few years sent home through tho hands of Commissioners fourteen millions of money saved from the extremeof poverty to bring out their parents and old friends to the new countries to ,'which they had gone. If we had done nothing but ovoke such an amount of human virtue is that, I should say that we were benofactors ot our fellowruen. I think we should continue upon that course, forcibly but earnestly lighting for what mon believe to be right. We gain nothing for ourseh es. Some of us have to make large sacrifices to obtain the.se advantages tor others, while we shall only personally benefit by the knowledge that' ib is done for so great and good a cause. I believe that by pursuing this couisc,, we fehall certainly triumph. If coercion is continued, noihing can prevent a great disaster falling upon the whole of the Empire. Thooe who are thinking that they c'n keep tho nation down by coercion and are in part following tho same course in England do not know the disasters to which they are hurrying their country on. I bhall fully assist you in every way I can to attain ends that I believe to be so really great. (Applause). [ After some further conversation, the in- ' terview cloaccJ.