THK CONFESSION OF FAITH. Auckland, February 16.

Te Aroha News, Volume VI, Issue 344, 20 February 1889, Page 4

THK CONFESSION OF FAITH. Auckland, February 16.

Rev. K. SoMaiKitviiibE moved his overture to the General Assembly on the subject as follows :— " Whereas there is in the Church great diversity of opinion in regard to the teaching of some parts ot the Westminster Confession of Faith ; whereas the conscience of many ministers and elders is offended when they are asked to sign the confession in its present form : and whereas it would tend to promote greater unity and prosperity if the Church's &tateuient of belief were in harmony with the most enlightened interpretation of the Word ot God, it is therefore hereby humbly overtured by the Reveiend the Piesbytery of Auckland to the Venerable the General Assembly of the Presbyteiian Church of New Zea and, indicted to meet at Auckland in the month of February ensuing, that they would take the whole subject into their serious consideration, and devise such measures as may tend to promote the glory of God and the good of the Church." In speaking in support of the overture JSJr Sommerville sa'.d :—ln: — In rUing to address the Assembly in support of the overture that has just been road, I feel that I am treading upon dangerous giound. We have been »o long accustomed to look on the Confession of Faith with profound respect, and to venerate it because of its antiquity, that anyone who presents the appearance even of opposition to any of its teachings, is liable to have veiy hard things said to him and ot him. This, however, does not deter me tiom taking the step i have done, for 1 have learned to care little what men say of me so long as I have a conscience void of otience towards God and towards men. And it 1 be regarded as a great sinner in bringing forward any pro posal in the way ot changing the Church's relation to the subordinate standards, it is no new heresj r that has taken hold of me. Ten years ago I prepared, at the requost of the General Assembly, a paper on "Confessions; their authority and use." The heretical views then given expression to were not condemned, and so I have gone on in the way oi natural mental development until I have come to maintain that the Confession is considerably out of keeping with the living faith of the Church. .In that paper 1 stated that the top of the tree of knowledge can never be reached by man. However great, then, the wi&dom, and learning, and faith fulness of interpretation and expression shown by the Oilmen's chosen men in formulating her ere d, their work is imperfect. It may be near perfection judged by the light of the age in which it took shape : but intellectual hgut is increasing day by day and the liyhi of last century is as daikness when compaied with bhis. " I quote this old statement to show that I ha\e not newly set foot on the downgrade, in so /ar as the confession is concerned ; and that I am not moved to this step by any popular cry again-t the Confession, or by any desire to gain notoriety. 1 proceed from a sense of duty. When putting the questions of the formula to a candidate foi license at my own i'resby, I heaid him explain his vie -\ sin regaid to some of the doctrines involved, and tell the Presbytery that according to his explanation was his answer. That u ;uan unusual course, but it produced an excellent effect upon the Presby, for it proved the student to be an exceedingly conscious young man. Nor was he alone in his objection to the Confession as it is. I know many others, most excellent men, who would not sign the Confession a« it is, and who are lost to the eldership because they cannot in good conscience sign the standards. I know many others who were once vi hin the fold of Presbyterianism, and from whose lips I have heard the teaching of the Confession blamed for the changethey made. I do not place very much weight on such reasons for migration as these; they are frequently made to suit the wish. Some, I know, are not, a large proportion I belie\e ate, and if those who" make them were asked to explain the objectionable portion, their very imperfect knowledge of what the Confession teaches would become strikingly apparent. But while I put aside these flimsy objections as unworthy of any serious consideration 1 cannot so deal with those of a more intelligent and weighty class that are so often put forwaid. A consensus of opinion in the theological world declares that they have \ good lesting trround. tiome of these I give in the language of one who w.-ote during the controversy in the U.P. Church 12 j years ago. He says: 'The Confession i* -susceptible of impro\enrv nt both formally and mateiially. It^ method may be allowed to be, as it has been called not the happiest: It is too polemical, metaphysical, technical ; especially it misses, in some lespeet.>, the true perspective and proportion of Bible doctrine. On the one hand predestiuarian doctrine is developed to a large extent, even to the extent of speaking, viz., of elect infants, while on the other hand fche generous love of God to men, and the full and tree gospel to mankind sinners, are portions of Bible matter that are exhibited in the Confession with disproportionallyh'mifced eniphasi*. Here we are said to hit a palpable blot in the Confession. In this respect the Bible is broader than the Cor.fession. Besides, the doctrine of the union of Christ and His people is a doctrine apai t from which the doctrines of substitution, imputation, and justification cannot be so truly conceived or so intelligently defined and defended as is competent to us, and yet these latter doctrines are not directly stated in that connection in the Confe?«ion. Again, not only are there matters of difficult and fcoo profuse detail, but there are in the Confession interpretations of Scripture that are inaccurate, or at least uncertain, and altogether not a few things which, in a subscribed creed, are superfluous and tending to oppression of consciences und finuliby in theological science " Probably the loudest, strongest an r ) most successful

OBJECTIONS TO THE CONFESSION judged by the influence they have upon the public, are those bhat are preferred against ib* representation of the future of the wicked. Their name is legion who rail I against the teaching of the Confession in this direction, and they rail \ cry successfully, for no one likss the thought of "such an eternity of existence as is theiein presented. Unpopulaiity, however, is no proof of error ; the Master himself became the most unpopular man ot His time simply becaupe he persisted in preaching truths that were in opposition to the popular desire. If the teaching of the Confession in regard to an eternity of punishment for the wicked be in keeping with the Word of God, it will live through all opposition ; if not i<; must give way to what is. Ido not believe in future probation for the wicked. I cannot find, that in theßib'e. Ido believe in future punishment. I believe it is impossible to get it rooted out ot the Bible. I believe th'atf the doctrine of rewards and the doctrine of punishments are so interwoven that no arguments can separate the en ; that they must stand or fall together ; that they are equally eternal, and that all the efforts that have been put forth to rob the one, and npt the other of eternity, have miserably failed, must continue to fail, in the light of one passage fiom the lips of Him who spake

with authority. " The&e shall go away into everlasting punishment ( ljut the righteous into everlasting life." But while I thus believe I likewise believe that the representations ot future punishment made in tho Confession are hot in keeping with the most enlightened interpretation of the Woid of God. What that punishment will be no mortal can tell, but that it will bo of the nature of the

AWFUL TORMENTS REPRESENTED IN THE CONFESSION I do not believe. True, the Confession does not speak ot hell-fire, but the Larger Catechism doe?, and lead in that light and in the light ot the theology of the age in which the Confession was di'uwn up there can be no doubt of the intern ion of the framers when they speak of eternal torments. Opinions have modified very considerably since the framers of the Confession did theii work, and tiieie are few who will now uccept of the terribly painful picture they paint of eternal torments in body and soul. We look back with horror upon the teachings of earlier years in regard to the punishment of the lost, and we wonder why men continued so long to speak of the God of love as if it were His verydelight to take vengeance on his adversaries by inflicting upon them ! the most indescribable tortures in. a lake burning with fire and brimstone. Even in j this district, within the last ten years, such teaching has gone forth from the pulpic, and non-elect infanta have been represented as euiibring agonies in the flames of hell lire. This indicates that the popular Uea in regaul to the Con f onion's future of the uniedsemed has a fa?t hold upon the mind even of educated and intelligent men. and, tightly or wrongly, it is the verdict of the m<)j>fc in regard to ihe Confession's, future sufferings of the lost. To their mind eternal torments can have but one meaning, and tha* — burning. However absuid the thought, it ii pai amount and mischievous, and eternal Lomieuts will continua to have to the unspeakable injury of Christianity, the one meaning- — material burnings. The Conie^cion cannot be i held responsible tor popular eirors !• — I may be told. That I admit, while I alto atfhm that a confession that claims to set the way of tiuth before many millions of the human race should be fiee irom ambiguity, and should be bet in such language as the most oidinaiy mind can comprehend. That the Westminster Confession is not its statement of the truth in regard to the punishment of the wicked, is not only ob?euie but unnecessarily severe. It suited the age in which it had birth ; it does not suit this ; it is not understood ; it will not bo understood, for prejudice runs loud and strong against it. But again, I may be told that prejudice affords no good reason for seeking to change in any way the Church's relation to the Confeasion; if we were to yield to all the prejudices that aiise against things leligious, the Christian Church would gradually recede and permit the enemy to enjoy uninterrupted possession. True, and I would be one of the last to yield to ignorant prejudice. But if we admit that there is good reason ior the good feeling of which I speak, thatthe average mindisnotcapaUle of grasping hold of the argument of theologians in support of the Confession '«, statement of this doctrine, and if, because of its incomprehensibility by the bulk of the people and its depiivation of Scripturalness by the minority, it be to the disadvantage ot the Church and the cause, surely it is the duty of the Church to leraove that) which is disadvantageous to its interests when it can be done without sacrificing truth or principle.

P£ E DESTINATION. Look ab another ponion of the Confession in which the statement of doctiine is equally unfortunate, viz., the chapter on God's eternal decree. ''By the decree of God," the Confession says, " for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death. These men and angels thus predestinated and foreordained are particularly and unchangeably designed ; and their number is so certain and definite that it cannot be either increased or diminished." lam awaro of the distinction theologians make between the tern.s " predestination " and "fore-ordina-tion," but to my mind it is a case of six and half a-dozen, for, although the Westminster diaiies seem to have used these words designedly, to mark a distinction, it is predestination all the same, and fore-oidin-ation all the tame, ii. v. Inches er case either word is used. Now, I presume no minister would caic to go into his pulpit and tell his congregation that God tor the manit'tUation of hh glory has foreordained a certain number of the human family to everlasting death, and that the number uf those so foreordained is so fixed and definite that it camiofc be either increased or diminished. I would shudder to utter such a statement to men having souls to save. Tell them that this is the only logical conclusion that is possible, according to the teaching of Scripture. You may preach to them till Doomsday about the goodness of "God, but they won't believe it. The two statements to the popular mind are so contradictory that reconciliation is impossible, the moie so that we are told in the chapter on free will that " rran, by his fall into a sLate of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to ' any soirifcual good accompanying salvation, so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that which is good, and dead in &in, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself hereunto."' 1 The last part ot this clause is contrary to experience) and is not supported by the passages driven in proof. Although men are not able tn conveit themselves, we see daily pioof of the fact that by using the God-appointed mean", men may prepare themselves for the change that is brought about only by the Spirit of God. 1^ thoughtless and oaie less persons get hold or the idea that, according ro the teaching of our church, tin unalterably fixed number of persons have been predestinated to life t vei lasting, and there is no possibility of those on whom the hand of retribution lies putting forth anj I successful elloit to save themselves, and the result cannot fail to be exceedingly di&astious. lYedesfcination is

A DARK DOCTRINE AT THE BEST, and in the Confession ib i,s set in its darkest and most repulsive colourings. No man in these days would dare to represent God as the Confession lepresents Him for ordaining the great ma-t of unieKcnerate mankind to everlasting death f..r "the n anifestation of his glory." The grander, fuller and more beautiful manifestations of his erlory surely we have in this — That God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever beheveth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. There's q. wideness in God's mercy like the wideness of the sea, There's a kindness in his justice, which is more than liberty ; For the love of God is broader than the measures of men's mind, And the heart 0/ the Eternal is most wonderfuljy kind. Idonofc desire to enumerate what I may consider the blemishes in the Confessiop. I have said enough o indicate my mind to •the desirableness • u{ the Chui'oh departing from its tenacious adherence to every 1 jqt/ and fcifctle in the Confession. We Jive in

age of progress, theological as well as scientific, and ' if the church i& behind, while the world around moves on, men will drop out of sympathy ■with its operations. Ifc is a necessity of its existence indeed thab ifc adapt itself, si far as it can consistently with truth, to the changes that are taking place around it. And the great family ot the Presbyterian Church is alive to this fact, for in almost every branch thereof there has been and there is now being carried on, an agitation against the Subordinate ' Standards in their primitive form and language, and it is because I believe the necessity has arisen in our own part of the vineyard that I have taken the responsibility of this overture. When then do I propose not to revise the Confession. If such a woik be even attempted it must be by one ot the groat branches of the family. But I think it would be a pity to attempt it however able and learned a body might be tor the purpose. It is a grand exhibition of erudition and may well be permitted to remain intact ac a memorial of the learning and mental power of its age. The men who formed it might well be entrusted to revise it did they live in this more enlightened age, but to touch their worknow would be to spoil it. Other courses are opening. Modify the terms of subscription, or adopt fcho Articles of Faith prepared by the Presbyterian Church of England. We have adopted their hymn book with its beauties, we have adopted their Rook ot Order with many of iss blemishes, and now we migho complete the appropriation by adopting their Articles of Faith freed from theii imperfections. They aye now passing through the inferior courts in England, and ere they pass into law, would doubtless be much improver!. We would, of cout&e, profit by these improvements by having a perfected articlo to send down to our infoiior courts ,an aiticle cxhib ting the matured wisdom of the older, longer, and more learned branch ot the family. But would this comse be tho right one ? 1 believe not. We cannot put abido the Confession of Faith ; there are lej^al difficulties in the way that render it impossible that we can depart irom the Confession and retain our pieseiit state of financial strength. AJany ol our valuable eiffcs and some of our propertie* 1 arc held in virtue of the fact that we hold by the Westminster Standards. Set aside these standards, and of necessity we set aside thos>o properties which may then be successfully claimed by any section, however small, holding the confession. Bub it would be an ignoble thing burely ou the part of the Christian Church to

PREFER WEALTH TO TRUTH. And to hold by a system of error rabhe r than bin render its hold of the things of the world. So ib would, \ but from my standpoint the church would nob be under any such charge of inconsistency by conceding all that is necessary to give relief to those who feel that at present they are too firmly bound by the teaching of the Confession. As u whole the doctrines of the Confession are unassoulable; they are the doctrines of the Bible, and are as sure and steadfast as the doctrines of the Supreme Standard. Iti s theiv setting that that is objectionable. It is their manner of stating the doctrines that brings them into disrepute. State them in Nineteenth Century language, and no man can touch them ; but leave it to be infened e.z. that all non-elect infants pass into eternal torments, and you present the doctrine of election in a light to which no mind can ever be reconciled. Nor is there any claimant need for immediate legislation. A great part of the Presbyterian world is moving in the matter, and bye-and-bye we may enter upon the labour of abler and wiser men. Meantimelask that the Assembly affirm the desirableness of moving in the direction indicated, and that a committee be appointed to gather information in regard to the legislation, and proposed legislation of other branches of the church, in the matter, and report to next meeting of Assembly, with a view of legislating when something like a consensus of opinion has been anived at in regard to the direction that legislation should take. It would be a calamnity it our church, so long historically one in it's attachment to the gieat Pio&byterian Symbol, should even be broken up by one pait taking one fttep, and another another in relation to standard. Far better to watch and wait, and assist to the taking of some common action that will proclude the possibility of isolation, but which will give us the satisfaction of knowing and feeling that we are as h oroughly a part of the great whole as even we were.

AN ANIMATED DISCUSSION. Rev. P. Caldei moved, " That the Assembly lecohe the overture, and recognise the nnpoitunce of the subject to which it relates, but decline in the meantime to take action in the matter." He said lie wn-> not one of t hose Presbyterians who believed that their suboidinato standards were as unalterable as the law of the Scriptures ; fuibher he contended lot 1 the principle that tho Church of Christ was at liberty at any time to revise her subordinate standards. With regaid to the Confession of Faith they were unanimous, venerating that document ; they desecrated it in many respects and in the main their pulpit, teaching taught the fame views. (Rev. Runcimuii : '"No.") If not, they had a most m gen b duty to discharge. Nono of them believed that the men who compiled that book, if living in the pre&cnt d«y, would have compiled the book as it i« compiled. There were points in the Confession of Faith which carried them out of their depth, bub regarding as he did that book as being as free Ir sn error as any uninspired theological work that goes over such a large extent of ground, he thought they should pause before they touched the ark in this mat ter. No doubt theie had been a distinct change in Ihe teaching of the times, and it •vas felt in the teaching from our pulpits. He believed the spirit of humanity of the piesent time was a good thing, and he did not think our age was a degenerate age as compared with the age in ('which the Confession of Faith vva a compiled, Noithei 1 , frankly, did he believe that the Church could for evei continue their strict adherence to the Confession. Hs would not move that fche Assembly either receive or adopt the overture, but that the Assembly receive it. Rev. Mr McKinney seconded the motion. He said perhaps he was a little sorry, Irishi man like, bliab he promised Mr Calder to second the resolution, and he did so pro forma, reserving hia light to exprebs his views later on. Rev. Mr Ogg snid that bhe objections made to }>he Confession of Faith arose in a great degree from a misapprehension of what it was intended to convey. lie did not believe thab ib was intended to set forth the whole doctrines of the Bible, and he djd not believe bhab j the ministers founded their sermons on the Confession of Faith. On bhe contrary, they drew up the sermons thab were bo edity fche people from the Bible and pommentariea. -The Confession of Faith was the high -water, mark at which theological thought had arrived in the sevenbeenth century. In d,ivine knowledge and epeabion com bin oil they had predestination, and this was nob only a doebrine af education, b°t a doctrine of reason.

He believed they should leave the Confession of Faith alone (applause), and he would recommend them to study "Hill's Lectures on Divinity." They would then see little to find fault within the Confession, but they would not found their pteaching upon it. ("Question.") The doctrines in the Confession of Faith were not doctrines of theology, but rather doctrines ot philosophy, and he did not think the elders should be asked to subscribe to it, (>ecause their training, as a rule, did nob enable them to comprehend the controversies that had taken place in the Church ever since it was established. He thought it was not right chat the Assembly should rest with doing nothing in this matter, because elders from conscientious motives were unable to subscribe to the formulse. He moved aa an amendment, "That the overture be received, that the Assembly recognise the importance of the subject, but, believing that the formulae to be subscribed by ministers at ordination, do not give sufficient liberty of thought in regard to the expression of doctrine in the Confession, that the questions to be put at ordination should be brought into harmony with the formula appointed ; a committee to be appointed to revise the formulic and questions." Rev. Mr Patterson seconded the amendment. He did nob think the Assembly was in a position to enter upon a revision of the Confession of Faith, but at the same time he ielt sure that the compilers would not now express themselves in the same way as they had done. Ke did not agree with Mr Sommevville's extreme.views, Rev. Mr Gillies agreed with Mr Ogg that a groat deal of the objection taken to the Confession arose from a misapprehension of what it was intended to convey. Mr Sommerville had said that the Bible was a great deal broader than the Confession, but it was nevor intended to be otherwise. He feared that the "progiess" referred to in discussion of this matter was very much like the "chaff which is driven by every wind and tossed." If there was any doctrine that required to be firmly held and firmly put before the people of the present day, it was the doctrine of the sovereignty of God, and for that reason he thought they&hould certainly not adopt the formuhe of the Presbyterian Church of England. It would be sufficient, he thought, to slightly alter the formula and questions. He moved, as a further amendment. "That the overture be received, but that, in the opinion of this Assembly, the modified formula already adopted by this Church in reference to the Confession of Faith, and the relation of its office - bearers thereto, secure ail that is neceaary and expedient for this church to attempt in present circumstances in the direction of modifying or altering her standards ; and in order to remove any doubt as to the relations in which these formulas stand to the questions put to ministers, elders, and deacons at ordination or induction as to their acceptance of the Confession of Faith, it is declared that the said questions are to be interpreted in the light of and modified by the formulae." Rev. Mr Runciman thought that there should be only one question, " Are you prepared to sign the formuhe ?" He believed that it would have been better for this Church had this question never been raised, but having been raised, it was well that he should express his views. A great change had taken place ot late years in all the churches at Home, but he did not believe the time had come for even the great Presbyterian Church to modify her Confession. They should be satisfied with the adoption of a formula. It was very desirable that a committee should be appointed, for otherwise they would be open to ridicule, and lie hoped that that course would be pursued. Rev. Mr Erwin moved, " That the As- . semby receive the overture, express their sense ot the importance of the subject, and as it seems, in the judgment of the Court, that the present relation of the Church to the subordinate standards cannot long be continued, a committee be appointed to watch the action of sister churches in regard to this matter." He thought the statements of doctrine conveyed in the Confession would have been modified if theframeis had had an enlarged idea of the relation of God to the human race. Mr Erwin also agreed with Mr Sommer\ille's remarks on election and retribution. Rev. Mr Macky said that although he did not regard the Confession with the same reverence as he did the Word of God, he regarded with great apprehension anything that might ! be done by the Assembly to bring discredit upon their standards. The time had not yet come for a revision of the -Confession, and he believed that the advice of the 3'resbyteiies would be for the A?sembly to stay their hand and proceed no further. He was surprised to hear Mr Ogg propose to have one kind of questions for the ministers and another for the elders, for he did not think the eldeus required anything of this kind. He moved, "That in order to as certain with as much correctness as possible, tho mind of the whole of the Church on the important quostion raised in this overture, a committee be appointed, whose duty it will be to inquire during the year from the various Presbyteries and Kirk Sessions as to whether in their opinion or not the time has come for this Assembly to enter upon a review of the Confession. In the case of those Piesbyteries and Kirk Sessions who are of opinion that we should at once proceed to this work, that they should furnish to this committee indications of those parts of the Confession which, in their opinion, are ambiguous and not founded on and agreeable to the Word of God." Rev. Mr Doull expressed pleasure at the general sentiment expressed in connection with this most important document, their Confession of Faith. He thought it very necessary to give the teaching of the Confession the greatest prominence. Rev. Mr Hill taid he believed the doctrines of the Confossion of Faith were severely stated, but it wns the doctrines themsolves that weie opposed. The fact that the Book of Order gave them full liberty with regard to these expressions was, he thought, sufficient. With regard to eternal punishment, it was not so much the u&e of the expression " material fire " a^ what they meant by it, that ought to be considered ; therefore he urged that the Confession should not be touched at the present. Let them take their position on a rock on their standards, and not trouble themselves with any wind of doctrine blowing here or blowing there. He was pleased with the unanimity shown on this quostion, and thought that Mr Macky was in error in concluding that the general feeling of the Assembly was otherwise. Roy. Mr Fraser thought that from the very temperate way in which the over- \ ture had been pub, very little harm, if no good, could come* from it. The older churches had again and again staved off any alteration of the standaids because of the difficulties which arose, and beoause they could not bo sure where the door would bo closed it it was once opened. He thought that if alterations were made in the diretcion indicated by some it would be & sorry day for the Churoh.

With regard to future punishment it was not the statements made in the Confession, but the statements made in the Bible, to which exception was taken, and he was convinced that , unless they first got • rid of the Bible they could not get rid of this terrible doctrine. It had been >-aid that men were dropping out of sympathy with the Confession of Faith, and yet there was no book that the world was more out of sympathy with than the Word of God. (Cries of "No !") The statement was true, and all the contradiction in the world would not alter it. Dean Stanley had said that there was not a statement in the Confession of Faith that was not in strict accord with the Word of God. | Rev. Mr West (Sf. David's) said he was the only one in the Auckland Presbytery that opposed thia overture. (Applause. ) He opposed it not because he did not believe in it, but because of its inexpediency. A similar overture had been submitted to the Glasgow Presbytory, and nearly all of the student*., including himself, voted for it ; but what he held was that a missionary church should confino itself to actual work. He denied the statement made in the overture " that the consciences of the member:* of this church are being violated." He urged that it should not go forth to the world that all the men who opposed the overture were narrow, and all who supported it broad, but rather that it should be rejected on the ground of inexpediency alone. (Applause.) Rev. Mr McLennan though*" the Assembly was now ripe for his resolution, viz., "That the overture be ' dismissed, inasmuch as it is based upon giatuitous assertions contrary to fact." He believed its adoption would lead to disunion in the Presbyterian Church of New Zealand. Rev. Mr Findlay seconded the motion. > Rev. Mr Monro (llemuera) said that he had expressed his views on the subject in the Presbytery very strongly, and they had been clearly represented by Mr SommerviJle. They were, however, pretty well agreed that the time had not come for taking action, and he thought it advisable that the matter should be allowed to drop. Perhaps it might be discussed again at the next Assembly. (" No.") Rev. Mr Nome thought that dismissing the overture was too lavish an expression. Hi& own inclination was to let the Confession alone. With regard to election he believed that ail infants dying would be saved by the second Adam though incapable of faith. In reference to "predestination," they were directed by the Confession to handle this doctrine with prudence and care. Rev. Mr McKinney said that the time was far ofl when the Confession could be meddled with. The English Church had attempted to meddle with it, and the result was a miserable " hotch-potch." He was, therefore, glad to see that they were unanimous in their desire to maintain the Confession of Faith. Rev. P. Munro expressed surprise that a number of others had not spoken. He feared that one section of the Assembly which had been heard before on this subject had been thoroughly cowed by the manner in which the other section had led oft" and followed up. Mr Munro also spoke of the difficulties experienced in getting elders to subscribe to the formulae, and said that they were usually got over with a shrug of the shoulders and the assertion, tl Oh, I interpret the Confession by the light of the Bible." In order to facilitate matters Rev. Mr McLennan withdrew his amendment. A vote was then taken on the various resolutions, with the following result : For Mr Calder's motion, 24 ; Mr Ogg"s motion, 9 ; Mr GilHes's motion, 12; Mr Runciman's motion, 10. Mr Ogg's motion was then dropped and another t*how of hands taken thus: Mr Calder's motion, 24 ; Mr Gillies's motion, 19 ; Mr Runciman's motion, 11. Mr Runciman's motion was then dropped, and a vote was taken thus : Mr Calder's motion, 24 ; Mr Gillies's motion, 26. Mr Gillies's motion was therefore declared to be carried. The Hevs. Runciman, Monro (Remuera), Hill, and Somtnerville had their dissent recorded.