Bible-Reading in Schools. DEBATE IN THE HOUSE. (BY TELEGRAPH.-OWN CORRESPONDENT.)

Te Aroha News, Volume V, 3 December 1887, Page 8

Bible-Reading in Schools. DEBATE IN THE HOUSE. (BY TELEGRAPH. -OWN CORRESPONDENT.)

Wixuxi.toN", November 26th. The debate of tho evening in the House last night was ou the question of Biblereading in schools, and the crowded galleries afl'ouled ample e\idenec of the f lot that U wa* an iuteiesting one. The second reading of tho Bible in Schools lull wa« moAcd by Mr Fulton in a good speech, and the discussion which followed was remaikable for the display of debating talent. Mr Fulton's desire was that tho House should meet the question fairly and j-quaiely, and he reviewed some of the objections that weio made against the reading of the Scripture? in school?. He explained that some of the supporters of the measure did not think it went far enough, nvA that the baru reading of a few lines would not do much good, but he and others \\ ould be glad even of that concession. The measure simply provided that a portion of the Bible should bo lead aloud daily 1 > schools-, that such reading should "not exceal twenty minutes, and that no ch'ld should be compelled 10 attend if the parent or guaidian objected in writing. Mr Fulton proceeded to comment strongly on the fact that the Bible was the only book prohibited fiom oar .school.-. We took every means to secure the physical and mental development of the children, but neglected their moral iraininu. H; laid stress on the fact that forty-two petitions in fa\ our of Bibleleading in the school* had been presented thi^ <=e-sion. The-c contained 14,366 *ignatr.ie«, avid came irom every district and denomination in the colony. Mr Fulton denial I hat tho effect, ot the change ■would be to intioduce denominationalt^m into the schools, and appealed to the House i ot to let it go forth that we were to be one of the few place* in the world to refuse this foles-iug to our childien. The mocion tor the second reading of the bill was seconded bj Dr. Hodgkinson, -who l>Td pie-entcd a petition from 1,600 women c* Southland in fa\ our of Bible-reading in the schools. He claimed that the Bible vould teach religion and moral duties, and educate the moral faculties, and said its literature wa-- or the highest meiit. surpassing all otVr books. The bill should in his opinion bo pa-s<>d. on humanitari-m a rounds a- some childien would hear the Bible iedd who would nut hear it read eKewheie. The doc lol'- speech concluded with the btartlina a-tertion that unless we intio'luced the Senntuics v>o would seal tho doom ot the common school", which would rot h\ c m.a en j eai - longei under the piesent t-\ -tern. Tlie opposition to the measure v. as commenced by Mr K. l\eo\es, who thought the School- Committees had aheady sufficient power. a.s they could appoint a certain time in the day foi Bible-reading. MrGoVlie followed with a very telling rpecch a<x<un-t the measure. He spoke with the CApcieneo acquiied by twenty-three xeai>" ,-uMce as an instructor in Sabbath Schools, and he a«-cited that it was as gieat a mi-take to attempt to force the Bible into the public schools as for the State to attempt to Uauh religion. The proper pi ice for th-^ Senpturos was the Sunday— chook the home, or the pulpit. He foMcd parent?, as well as ministers of leliirion, were only too anxious to have children Liught by proxy. He contended that leli^ious insti notion m Industrial Schools was not analogous. They were not, h^ -aid, ju-titied in pie-sing .Roman I atholic teacher^ to read the Bible -when their Church objected to them having i"V Bible in their possession. He ■ J-o mgv-d the objection that Hebrew ] aro'.ts might have to the Now Testament being placed in their children's hands. This v.-a" the thin ed»e of the wedge to intioduce denominational wn, and he refcired to tho boast of a Church of England clergyman in Auckland who did not scruple to say that tin- aui->-i>. Mr Goldie made a .■-cioiig point again -t tho contention that tho pio I . i-ion in the present law was not FidiuiPnt bv sa\ing that the Auckland SVom:n'- Tempcnnce Union had taken lh'^ lvattci np, and found that while the cluMun v>eie eager and willing to learn, tho dimoulh, v,a- to obtain teaches, and clergymen -'tit ked this duty, for which they v, < j ie paid. A Ti" B. i'f° g'i\e (he bill his support on tho go.md thft he was a democrat, and theie'oio bclic\ed that majoiitics should lule. In this ea^e that rule could not be attc ided a\ ith an\ injury to tho conseicntiou- *Vohijg- of the ndnoiity. M^r Bnvton. v,lio spoke ■witli all the unction of a la\ pieaclicr, was opposed to leligiou" teaching in .-chcol-. They should keep all .ii'nrstci- out, but let the Bible go in. Hi took c < cptiun to Mr Goldie's. syinnath' ' il consid-'iatiou f^-r Roman Catholic-, i>M(! ,01- his ov. n ]>ctit did not believe ( at'j'il ( - ere much op[)Oscd to the Bible in s'.'ioi'lo ; tlic\ v. eie lepieseuted to be. Mi Tanner at considerable length in tnppoil of tie mensiuc. He declared that the diihcultie- suogested by Mr Goldie did not exist, and claimed that the lesnlts of Lible-rcading in the schools in other countiies had bron most beneficial. CatholiGs would not o))ject to Bible-ieading in tlic schools loirj, a- their claims to State rod to cheir school-, w cie lecogni-^ed. Mr I'l" 1:^1 :^ f-ciie! a [.oint when he e\￴.ed th" o])iiiu a that if tho subject c ii r >i"f ; 1.0 much di-cotd in the House, what ci ci'il \vould if not cause in school^ ainoi.; -t the chi^hen '' _\h Hobb- r-u'd theie would be no difliculry if wi all b 10-'.ged to one denomination hut i cligiou-j.-t' ifes and dinereneeswere v. oi -i or all. Spcakipg fiom his own expciie'icp, he obji-ftei to religion being" lubbcl in b\ -c'l^olir ;' ters. [)i. X'i."UK>u- -; i" eh \\u r de\otod to a defence of tho \outh of the colony from the chaige of iovd\l-.a jnd laiukinism. He (>]■)])( j\ the bill. Wi I'avatn and S t >dmy Taiwhanga both ; v])}!(, itcd tin; mea^uie. Sidney said the lon n(iot ion of England wa^ the Bible ir.id {.11 lav. s Mere made by it. The Bible !vul mode Biilain what, the was nov/, and Avithoul t):e Bible lie did not think England w ould stand a few years. (Laughtu). lie quoted the lfply of Queen] Victoiia to an [udian Piincc respecting the secret of England's greatness, and hearing a sceptical laugh, added that that was v. hath j was told in England, but he did not know if they had told him a falsehood. Ron. (>. Fisher, Minister for Education, objected to the .-school 3 of the colony being made the battle ground of i elisions intolerance. It was e'.idenl, from the number oi petitions, that there \w\s a general desire ioi the bui['tmes being read in the school, but m\) ( miccosion made this way could only be done by some such system U* the adoption of (ho lii-^h Board seiics of lessons, which would be a fair comp:om'sc. Those selections had been drawn up by an Anglican and a lioman catholic Archbishop. Re, claimed that at the present time the fullest liberty was to use schools for this purf)ose. Mr Allen hold that tho concession that the Bible might be read after school hours v, as not sufficient, In Germany and Switzerland the Bible was considered to be

the ba&is of education in elementary schools. In. Great Britain, Italy, and Belgium the | Bible was part of the education system. The democracy of the country demanded that the bill be passed. The Hon. Mr Feigns made a vigorous speech against the bill. He said that in Otago permission was given to send out circulars asking the opinion of parents on the subject, The feeling was shown by fact that over fifty per cent, of parents absolutely declined to answer the question at all. If they introduced the Bible in the schools they must aUo grant denominational education. If tho Bible were introduced to morrow he would bo found fighting under the banner of denominationalism. He held that supporters of Fulton's bill wanted to establish a State Church in New Zealand, and declared that if the issue of Bible-reading in schools and denonmia-tiouuli-m were placed before the people, an overwhelming majority would piou.mnce in favour of maintaining tho present, education system intact and inviolable. Mr Taylor followed w ibh a humorous speech in which he described tho introduction of the present mea^uie as an insidious* attempt to break dow nthe secular s.v stem of education. A new aigumcnt against the bill was raided b.y Mr With}', who urged that the Stato wa» not wai ranted in taxing the Yholc of its people to teach icligion which would onl.v be taken advantage of by a section. Tho dibCiiasion was caniod on till the supper adjournment b\, Air Levestam, who could not ic.-i^t the opportunity of making another attack on those Legislative Councillors who had circulated the petition in favour of candidates pledged to suppoit Bible-reading in schools. On icsuming, the running was taken up by Mi Giimmond, Mr' \V. I*. Reeves (who .-i« id that the question of Bible leading should onh be lai&ed by debating societies or a YoungMeh'sChristian Association), and Di. Fitchett. The-c gentlemen all .spoke against the measure. Sir Julius Yog el Paid that it was because members had a high rev oienoe for the Bible that they objected to it* being trilled with. It was not to be infoired that because the}' did not agieew ith the principle of Scriptural ic'iding for twenty minute- dailj in schools, they did not becomingly lcgard the Bible. A child •who giew up without a firmly -implanted leligious creed was likely to become a social misery to itself, but while sa\inn this he did not think that tho State should undeitakc the duty of deciding in what direction the religious instruction of children should go There were only thice \uijh in which leligious education could be given to children. The State mu-t either leave it to the parents and guardians, or mu'-t undertake to establish sectaiian schools, or must subsidise denominational schools conducted by private people. Bible leading in schools was but an initial attempt to biing about denomiuationalism. For tlu>o reasons ho felt compelled to \oic against the bill. "Thc^e latter speeches had been foimd to be so damaging to the bill that Mr Downie Stewart was compelled to s]>eak strongly in its support. He declared that thi:, question -would be a test one for years-, and that ultimately the Bible would be ie established in public school s*,5 *, from which it had been excluded by a catch div i-ion. Instead of Bible-i fading in schools leading to denominationalisin its exclusion would" lead to that result. Mr Walker charged the Otago people v. ith not being sincere at heart on this question, as the Pie&hyterian Church had not devoted its fineendovv ments to the purposes of religious instructions. A noble contrast in this respect was provided by the Roman Catholics, who were entitled to some denominational aid. Ivcniaiks in the same diicction wore made by Mi Guinness (who moved the second leading of the bill six month? hence), Mr Fitxherbei t, and Mr Samuel. The fact that five out of tho last seven fpeakcis vme lawyers made it apnitenb that they weie stonewalling to prevent tho Law Piactitioner* Bill coming down.

Sir George Grey aitaoks the Lawyers. Sir George Ore}, who \uia cheered on li-ing, &&.id they had been watching a solemn farce, and :he whole e^ent of the e\ cumg 1 was disgiaecful. Biblc-icading had been made an excuse for robbing 1 poor people of the ad\antage.-> about to be conferred upon them. The 'atvyers of the House had u^-ed this subject to prevent tlie Law Piactitioneis Bill being considered. (Membeis ot the legal fraternity in the Housse, hcieupon gave wuy to c\eofv.ivo hilaiity.) Would those gentlemen peek to sit on the judicial bench, w ould they aspire to w ear tlie ermine hereafter, which they had disgraced as members of the bar that nij»ht ? Mr Samuel io.se to a point of order and asked if fcho speaker had u n»lit to refer to another bill in ordci to attack tho°e who had .spoken. The .Speaker ruled that Sir George was in oi dei. (Cheers.) I Sir (». Grey said lie Hib glad the lion, gentleman's conscience wa.-> .->lungat last. (Cheeio. ) That such a debate could be p ostitvtted for such a purpose was to him inconceivable, and the actions and words oi the lion, gentleman to whom he referred were insinceie, and they knew it. They stood up apparently fully sincere in debating the question then under consideration, while they were icaliy bout on an utteily contrary cour.-'C. JTe ticmbled wlien lie heard one lion, member refer to the Bible imparting truths to children. He spoke those words as if ho w eie speaking w ilh no other object, while ho was really pai licipating in a plot to rob the people of lights, to which they were entitled. When lie (Sir George) thought how the poor had been treated that ni'^ht, when ho thoughl how long they had and had been denied relief when it was near to them, and how the healing cup had been dashed down, when he leeognised that their contemptible purpose was the greed tor gain — Mr Samuel rose to a point of order. Was the lion, crentleman justified in accusing lion, members of being actuated by the gi eed for gain ? The Speaker : I think it is an improper motive to impute to hon. member.-? of this Jrlouso. Sir George Grey said that he could fancy the plots that had been made to wrong the poor. In may ways they had suffered &o that he hardly knew how to speak, and he regretted that the ordinary rules were referable to such a great occasion when so gieat a wrong had been done under a seem ing of virtue. Ho believed thai this Parliament would yet see, despite the wrong that had been dono him that night, that justice should be done, and that at all iit>k? those measures should be brought forward despite the plot thai had been so cunningly caviicd out to defeat them from coining on tluit night. Ho believed that what had taken place would attract attention to these great events that he of, and that this Parliament would show that they would not be used for such a purpose. Let an opportunity bo afforded for biinging forwaid those bills which had been doicatcd in such a manner ! Let them be discussed openly and fairly, but if they were to bo defeated let them be do- j foaled by fair means. (Cheers.) j)r, FitchelL, in vindication, &aid that f-eo- j ing that no lawyer spoke till nearly twelve

o'clock, and fckat no lawyer &poke more than ten minutes, the hon. gentleman was not justified in casting on the lawyers of the House the reflection he had, and Gorging them with arranging a cunningly devised plot to prevent the Law Practitioners Bill coming on. Mr Fulton replied at some length to arguments of the opponents of the bill. Mr Seddon, who also- spoke, asserted 1 that Government supporters to- the numbor of fourteen had spoken to prevent Grey's bill coming on, the bill to relieve tenants being one reason for the obstruction. The division was taken at 1.30 a,m.. when the motion for the second reading of the bill was lost by 31 to 14. There wore 16 pairs. Tho division list was as follows :—: — Ayes, 14 : Allen, Anderson, Buxl'on (teller), Feldwiok, Cowan, Fulton, Hodglcmson, Joyce, McKcnssio (Waihemo), Richardson (Mataura), Ross, gS toward (Waimate), Stewart (Dunodin West), and Tanner. Noes, 31 : Balbmco, Bavvon, Blake, Duncan, Fergus, Fisher, Fibchefct. Fitaherboi't, Fvaser, Goldie, Grimmond, Guinness, Hobbrf, Jackson, Kelly, Kerr, Lawry, Levestam, Marchant, McGregor, Moat, Monk, Moss, Peacock, Reeves (St. Albans), Samuel, Seymom, Thompson (Auckland North), Walker, Withy. fours— For : Turnbull, Taiwhanga, Fish, Pyke, Graham, McKenzio (Glutha), Pratt, Jones, Hall, Bruce, Ward, Rhodes, Mills, Larnach, Atkinson, Carroll. Against, : O'Callaghon, Lou«hroy, O'Conor, Reeves (luangahua), Beetham, Pearson, Richardson (Kaiapoi), Izard, Me Arthur, Hislop, MacKenzie (Mount Ida), Newman, Vogcl, Buchanan, Mitchelson, Valentine.