PARLIAMENTARY. (From " Star " Parliamentary Reporter.) SIR J. VOGEL'S REVIEW OF THE BUDGET PROPOSALS. Wellington, November 4 to 10.

Te Aroha News, Volume V, Issue 228, 12 November 1887, Page 5

PARLIAMENTARY. (From " Star " Parliamentary Reporter.) SIR J. VOGEL'S REVIEW OF THE BUDGET PROPOSALS. Wellington, November 4 to 10.

The debate on the Financial Statement commenced last evening, and despite the inclement weather, the galleries were crowded with listener — not a vacant seat in any of them. There was a good representation of Legislative Councillors, but the members of the Lower House themselves were not present in such force as might have beun expected. Sir J. Vogel commenced the debate. He congratulated the Colonial Treasurer on some points. From a literary point of view it was the best production that had yet come from the hon. gentleman. It was a clever production from an intellectual point of view, although he did not think it was so from a moral one. The Statemant did not endeavour to try and reconcile expendituie with revenue and made up the deficit by unlimited borrowing. He asked what would have been the general opinion if the late Government had brought down such a budget in the earlier part of the year. The promises of retrenchment were not specific and were too vague, while extraordinary powers were asked ior limited expenditure for the future. The Treasurer increased the property tax by exactly the same amount as the Government proposed to do, with the difference that he threw an increase on 22,000 people, while they placed it on 5,500 people by abolishing their exemptions, and made up the deficiency by borrowing instead of by increasing taxation as should have been done. The Treasurer sought to make up the deficiency as large and all-embracing as possible, and as in 1879, whatever it was", he had to borrow it in full. The Treasurer had increased the estimates of the late Government by £75,000 odd for services which he said were not provided ior, and then by taking off other amounts he showed a reduction of £26,400 on the estimates of the late Government. It was, however, the usual thing to effect savings on the Supplementary Estimates, and the late Government had .saved £129,000 in this way. Sir Julius proceeded to quote ligures Avith the object of showing that the late administration had saved from their appropriations £93,000 for half-year ended 30th September last, at the rate of £186,000 for the year, exclusive of the land fund or permanent charges. He maintained that the late Government would have come out better, with more substantial savings, than Major Atkinson's now did. Taking the whole expenditure, exclusiveof landfund but inclusive of permanent charges, the present Government exceeded the proposed expenditure of the late Government by £53,000. The Treasurer put an exaggerated character on the deficit of this and the last year, and was disingenuous about the Customs revenue, as he took off additional duties proposed, and also reduced* the estimate by £35,000. Sir Julius Yogel at this stage referred to Major Atkinson as to whether the figures he was quoting were correct. Major Atkinson : The hon. gentleman is wrong all through, but I shall deal with him presently. Sir Julius Vogel : If lam wrong, the hon. gentleman has given us wrong figures Sir Julius Vogel proceeded to refer to the fact that the Tresurer had not taken into consideration the increased returns fiom Custom? during the month preceding the delivery of the Statement. The first *even months justified his own estimates, the deficiency being only £6,5000. Sir Julius entered into a long explanation relative to the position of the Sinking Fund debentures and concluded with a hope that the Treasures understood the matter, because it was the duty of the Colonial Treasurer to understand it. (Laughter.) He would lemind the House of the continual abuse to which he had been subjected through having saved the colon}^ taxation to the extent of three-quarters of a million during the last three years. (Laughter.) Sir Julius then proceeded to refer to the proposed reductions for the future. He did not think that the reduction of the Governor's salary meant that they would have a second class Governor. If it were the custom for Governors to be raised gradually from smaller dependencies to larger Crown colonies, then he believed it would be desirable to pay such a salary as would secure the services of a man of the widest experience. Thousands of pounds had been saved by the action of a former Administration with which he was connected in fixing the Governor's salary and allowances by Act of Parliament. If the present reductions were carried into effect, the Governor would not retire from Wellington to other parts of the colony unless special votes were put on the Estimates for the purpose, and the discussions of former years on this subject would be renewed. He suggested that they might fix the salary at £4,000 and specify various other allowances, providing at the same time for a clerk to the Executive out of the general fund. He had an utter contempt for the proposal to reduce the salaries of Ministers, and declared that the effect- would be to hand over the Government of the country to political adventurers. (Hear.) He was convinced that all former Ministers had left office poorer men than when they entered upon it. With regard to tho reduction of the portfolios, he thought that it would suffice to have four Ministers resident in Wellington and other Ministers in other parts of tho colony attending to localities at much smaller salaries. He thought it would be better to sell all the Ministerial residences, but the allowance for house rent should not be le^s than £250. He believed from speeches he had read that a majority of members had pledged themselves to a reduction of the nonorarium, but he did not think it should extend beyond the term of the present Parliament. He believed that before the next Parliament met, a feeling would grow amongst the electors that it was a mistake to place the representation of the colony at the mercy of the wealthy. Payment of members was one of those principles which were recognised all over tho world asaffording the best protection to the democracy of the country. With rega* d to the reduction of

members, lie thought extension of electorates nieant an important change in representation, but he recognised it was now the wish of the people that the number of members should be reduced, and he would not oppose a reduction of members by 20 or 25. He would, however, oppose any rigmarole of election tactics such as the Hare system. He thought the candidate gaining 1 the most votes should be elected. . No representative of Canterbury or Otago or Southland would refuse to support the repeal of the Crown and Native Lands Rating Act. Sir Julius reminded the House of the large additional burdens thrown on the local "bodies by this repeal and by reduction of subsidies. In fact, the Government were really throwing on local bodies additional taxation of a quarter of a million, which they were not capable of bearing. He predicted that an additional halfpenny of the property tax to enable local bodies to bear the enormous burdens cast upon them was dimly foreshadowed. If members consented to leave to the Government the work of effecting a revolution in the educa- , tion system, which would be necessary to secure the reductions proposed, they would be false to their hustings pledges, because promises were freely made that the education system should not be interfered with. The reduction in the Survey Department implied a less amount of settlement. It was the duty of the Government to show the manner in which the reductions were to be made, and if the Premier persisted in his determination of the other night not to give details of those reductions, he was very much mistaken if he was left on the Ministerial Benches to carry out the reductions. Did the hon. gentleman mean to tell members that they were a parcel of cowards, and afraid to make the reductions ? The hon. gentleman wanted the House to pass a lump sum as an imprest vote, so that they might spend it as he pleased. He would be glad to join a few other members and question each vote, so that every item might be given, rather than agree to the voting of a lump sum. tSir' Julius questioned the reliability of the saving of -£71,000 claimed by the Government in current expenditure, and made much of the fact that Major Atkinson only promised a saving of £6,000 in lour departments of which he (Sir Julius Vogel) had had charge. So far as nonpolitical railway boards wero concerned it was the reverse of the fact that the system was becoming more popular in Victoria. The system was always popular amongst large users. Here the feeling was that railways were not made for revenue purposes only, but for small users as well as large ones. He predicted that the change to a non-political board would prove a dangerous difficulty. The Government had no defined ideas of how the reductions in the public service were to be effected, but on the other hand the late Government were carrying out a systematic plan of retrenchment. The Budget for the next year was a mere fancy statement, and many items should appear that were omitted. The additional interest payable on the two millions loan was an instance of this. The object was to hide the necessity for inci'easing the Customs revenue. He objected to 22,500 property taxpayers being increased by two per cent, without indirect taxation being increased at the same time. Property-tax holders were warned that directly inci*eased Customs taxation was proposed the property tax would have to be further increased. The Government was a weak one, and had not courage to deal with the adjustment of taxation. " By a weak Government he did not mean in regard to its pe?"sonnel — that unpleasant duty he had already had to discharge — but in the number of membei's who supported it. The question was not one of free trade v. protection, but of getting sufficient revenue to meet the expenditure. He issured the House that when the Stout- Vogel Government were defeated in May last, they forebore to resign and allow Major Atkinson to be sent for because they were satisfied that they could not en.. t v'd lortify the revenue so as to make it m. - , expenditure. Coming to the loan proposals, Sir Julius said he was intensely shocked at the cool manner in which the Premier discussed whether or not he would divert the North Island Trunk Loan from the purposes for which it was intended. The guarantee which it was proposed togive not to borrow for three years from March next was a very dangerous course, and would lead to the entire cessation of public works for at least one year before the three years expired. The mere fact ot such assurances having been given was not calculated to increase the price that would be got in going to the English market. He (Sir Julius Vogel) was entirely favourable to limiting the expenditure of borrowed money, but he recognised the necessity of completing from borrowed money the Otago central line as far as Middlemarch and closing the gap between Woodville and Palmerston. The route of the North Island trunk line had also to be determined, and the money set apart for that purpose should be expended on it. He denied that a million loan was necessary, and declared that half a million was all they needed at present. The Budget proposals of the Government were of an alarming nature inasmuch as an attempt was made to put the whole cost of the deficit on borrowed money. He would not embarrass the Government or throw unfair responsibilities in their way in regard to dealing with questions at a distance. He regarded with unmitigated astonishment the proposal to make the nominee branch of the Legislature the most powerful branch. When a conflict occurred an opportunity should be given of swamping or threatening to swamp the Legislative Council in order that the popular will should have its way. By saying that a certain number of members could not be exceeded supreme power was given to the nominee chamber. He was informed that the Government were so ashamed of their proposal that they now stated they did not mean an absolute limit, but merely intended to introduce the Norwegian principle of bringing in both Houses together in cases of disagreements. The Pensioners' Settlements scheme would have to bo considered with great caution, especially in regard to old soldiers. As regarded the question of land settlement, he should not discuss it that evening, but he admitted that there was no

subject on which the House ought to ! be more anxious to help any Government than on that of Maori legislation. In regard to mining, under the mass of verbiage that was employed all he could make out was that there was no intention to abolish the Schools of Mines. The question of non - political "Railway Boards would have to be considered separately. In conclusion he denied that the Government had a majority, and said that Major Atkinson was allowed to retain office on the principle that ho was the lesser of two evils. (Laughter). The country was in this position at the present time, that it wanted a very strong Government. From Victorian experience he had concluded that a strong Government which would boldly declare its viewa was an essential, and he denied that such now existed. He did not doubt that during the cour.se of this debate there would yet be another opportunity of speaking, and meanwhile he had to thank the House for the kind attention it had given him. The Minister of Education (Hon. G. Fisher) said the speech just delivered was one of the lion, gentleman's weakest efforts. (Opposition cheers.) It was a characteristic speech, and dealt mainly with financial abstruseness. He denied that the retrenchment proposals of the Government were a sham. As a matter of fact the late Ministry had increased the cost of the Government of the country at the rate of £100,000 a year, and when they left office bhe cost of Government had increased by £400,000. Ministers had placed before the House a policy of which the leader of the Opposition couiri not disapprove, and therefore he (Sir J. Vogel) found himself in an unenviable position. The speaker denied that there would be a loss to the country by no alteration in the tariff during the present session, and said the country would be greatly benefited by the stability of its trade, and there being an absence of those constant upheavals which had taken place during the pa3t three years. He reminded the House that in their retrenchment proposals the Government had laid it down that no wages man should be reduced, and that the salaries of those drawing less than £150 per year should not be curtailed. The blame of the second session belonged to the Opposition, inasmuch as they had plunged the country into a general election at a cost of £30,000, an amount which would pay the salary of a first-class Governor for six years. The lion, gentle1 man who had just sab down said that bhe reduction of the Ministerial salaries are excessive. He denied this, and said it was an honest and earnest effort on the part of Ministers to lift the country out of its difficulties, and to set an example to others whose salaries were retrenched so that they could nob cavil. (Ministerial cheevs.) Then the complaint was made that if members were not paid for their services the democracy was in danger ; yet Sir Julius de&cribed himself as a Liberal. To legislate for half a million people seventy members were quite sufficient. (Dissent.) If it was true that the late Government made considerable savings in travelling expenses, the expenses in the past must have been of considerable magnitude. He regarded the sy&tem of subsidies as a vicious and fallacious one, and he would leave it to the Colonial Treasurer to deal with that question at greater length. Now he came to the education question, and in regard to it he pointed out that, according to the Act of 1877, the capitation was laid down at £3 15s, so the House had had abundant opportunity of expressing its opinion. He had sought for proof as to the cost of education in other places, and found that the systems were all weak on the financial side. If time were given the Government, they would show that, though reducing the education vote, they were not weakening the system, but strengthening it. The cost of primary education to each £100 of revenue in some of the colonies was : In New South Wales, £7 17s ; Victoria, £8 9s Id ; New Zealand, Cll 2s. The member for Christchurch North said the House would be a curse and cowards if they did not demand particulars as to the details of proposed reductions. The House need not be under apprehension or misapprehension on that point, for the Government would at the proper time undertake to explain every reduction proposed to be made. As to the Civil Service Board, Mr Fisher said that one of its greatest recommendations was that it took out of the hands of bhe Government the exercise of the power of patronage, and ho undertook to say that when the Civil Service Board got into working order the colony would get the best value for its money. He was a pronounced opponent to the raising of loans, and he agreed that the whole policy of the Government would have been more heroic if the loan proposals had been left out ; bub in view of the finances of the country and the works it was committed to, a loan, was inevitable and unavoidable as they were under the dire necessity of savins 1 the credit of the colony. Whether their policy met with approval of the House or not it met with the unqualified approval of the country from end to end, and if the Government were strong in the Houso they were much stronger in the country. (Mr Seddon : Stronger with the newspapers). In conclusion, ho made an earnest appeal to members to put aside personal and party feelings, and make strong efforts to raise the country from the difficulties in which it now was. Mr Ballance said Mr Fisher had just posed as a Radical member of tho Cabinet, and had stated that the Government had touched the property classes through the j property tax, as their sympathies were in I that direction. He fully expected that every member of the Government would come out in the same manner, and that they would prove full-fledged democratic Ministers. He contended that Mr Fisher had not replied to the speech of the late Treasurer, and he combated tho statement nvide that the Government did not intend to touch the wages of working men. Ho gave a distinct denial to the assertion that' Sir R. Stout had ever stated that he expected his Ministry would come back in a minority. He condemned the reduction of Ministers' salaries', and said the reduction should only bo temporary, and not of such a sweeping character. With respect to Mr Fisher's advocacy of a reduction in the number of

members, he pointed out that his views did not agree with those of the Premier, as that hon. gentleman in 1881 deliberately increased the number from 86 to 95. However, if reports were correct, the Premier intended' to reverse much of Avhat he had previously done, as he intended supporting the repeal of the Triennial Parliaments Bill and other Liberal measures which he had been instrumental in passing. He referred at some length to the education question, and snid the Government proposals were most illiberal in character. The retrenchment question to his mind was a great question of policy, and the House Avas entitled to full particulars of the proposed savings. He defended the village settlements scheme, and said there had never been more pains taken with any scheme than this to give the fullest information to the House. Nob one single penny had been spent beyond the vote of the House, and lie maintained that nothing constitutionally wrong had been been done, because the House had received all possible information on the matter. With respect to Railway Boards, he said it was not a fact that those Boards in Victoria had been an unqualified ouccess, and he was not at all sure that an expert in the Railway Board would escape the censure which Ministers received. He thought the Board would not work at all, and there was no occasion to g<i to other countries to import men for this Vffice. He asserted that Sir J. Vogel's remarks as to the new loan were misunderstood. That hon. gentleman's opinion was that a million and a half was necessary for present requirements, being half a million more than was wanted for the North Island Railway. He defended his administration of the Native Department, and referred to the position of the land fund at some length. As to the payment of members, he maintained that the present honorarium was not too large. He was also opposed to a reduction of the Governor's salary, and he expressed the opinion of many people when he said a Bill to give efi'ect to this reduction would not be assented to at Home. He thought the retrenchment proponed by Ministers in many instances was in the wrong direction. Mr Pearson moved the adjournment of the debate till next sitting day. Agreed to. ' The House rose at twenty minutes past twelve.

Sbop Hours Bill. Mr Joyce is introducing a bill under the above title which makes it penal for all retail premises except licensed houses, refreshment houses, and newspaper offices, to be open except during the hours of from 6 a.m. to 6 p.m., and till 10 p.m. on Saturdays. Chemists and druggists may supply medicine at all times, but their shops shall not be open for the sale of anything else.

The Midland Railway Difficulty. As might have been expected after Friday night's debate, the Midland Railway question has been referred to a Select Committee. The Premier said that in conformity to the wishes of certain members the Cabinet had decided to refer the matter to a Select Committee instead of a committee of the whole House. The matter was one oi considerable importance, and he wished to get the decision of Government as early as possible. He moved that it be referred to a Committee to consider the proposals made for amending the contract between Messrs Chry stall and others, and signed the " Midland Kail way Company," for the construction of the Midland Railway, and to obtain their opinion whether all (or any) of the amendments should be adopted, the Committee to consist of fourteen members, five to be a quorum, and to have power to call for persons and papers, and to report on or before Wednesday, November 16th. Sir J. Vogel could not disguise that it would have been better for the Government to have got the questions settled by a Committee of the whole House, but possibly the Premier's motion was made in conformity with the widh of the majority of members. Major Atkinson promised to submit names ot Committee at 9.30 p.m. In accordance with that promise, the following Committee was appointed at 7.40 : — Messrs Barron, Fulton, Sir John Hall, Sir G. Grey, Captain Russell, Mr Y. Pylco, Hon. E. Richardson, Hon. G. F. Richardson, Mr Samuels, Sir J. Vogel, Dr. Hodgkinson, Messrs. Seddon, Levistam and Major Atkinson.

The Employers Liability Act Amendment. This bill, introduced by Mr Downie Stewart, is intended to prevent employers entering into agreements by which servants are unable to recover compensation. It gives the Court authority to allow an action to proceed, although no notice may have been given within the time prescribed. Compensation may be allowed in excess of three years' wages up to £300, and it is further enacted that an employer cannot get lid of his liability by entering into subcontracts.

Tribute to an Early Pioneer. The decease of Mr Alfred Domett, formerly Premier of New Zealand, and the intelligence of which reached here since last meeting of the House, was referred to yesterday afternoon by the Premier, who said that Mr Alfred Domett was a very old colonist, and was distinguished for his character, his ability, and his high intellec tual qualities. He was one of those early settlers who had left his stamp upon the colony and it seemed but reasonable that the House should recognise on his passing away the many excellent qualities of one of tho pioneers of settlement, a man who had left his mark not only upon our Legislature, but also upon our civilised life. He thereforo moved "That this House desires to take the earliest opportunity of recording its sincere sympathy with the widow, fami'y, andf riends of Mr Domett on the great loss they have sustained in the death of that gentleman, who, not only during many years rendered valuable public service to this colony, but also in his admirable poectical writings preserved interesting and valuablo pictures of this country in its early state and of its aboriginal raco, which will be of value and interest to New Zealanders in all time. Sir Julius Vogel, in seconding, said that the distinguishing feature in Mr Domett's public career was sacrifice of his natural inclination to a private life and literary pursuits in order to render services which wore at that time imperatively demanded of him on behalf of the colony. He was noted for his

high culture, his generous manner, atnd especially the great judgment with which h© was able to discriminate between the conflicting opinions and to take a sound, practical view of affairs brought under his notice. Few public men had paßsed through life with so few enemies and so many friends, Mr Kerr referred to Mr Domett as an early colonist who bore the burden of the day when the colony was in great straits. Sir John Hall said the distinguishing features of the deceased gentleman were his perfect straightforwardness and feaiiessness. There was nothing like concealment or insincerity in the whole of his composition, and for these reasons he never forfeited any honourable member's good will or confidence. Mr W. P. Reeves said that Sir George Grey had taken very keen interest in the matter before the House and it was with the deepest regret he found himself unable to attend that afternoon on account of illness.

Settlement on Education Reserves. Government have nob yet definitely decided whether the new Land Bill shall make provision for rendering Education Reserves available for settlement* by giving power to the Governor in Council to require them to be dealt with under the land laws of the colony. The matter is, however, to receive consideration by the Cabinet this week. Major Steward is moving privately in the same direction.

Absentee Landlords. The Premier says Government have no intention of proposing any legislation dealing with absentee landloids in the way of imposing special extra taxation on this large and increasing class of property owners. Ho says, moreover, there are two sides to the question.—that from £50,000 to £70,000 is received in the colony from persons absent in the old country. Under the property tax our absentees pay property tax here as well as income tax at Home.

Half-caste Land Claims. The Government propose to introduce a bill during the pre&ent session to provide for the half-caste land claims reported on by Commissioner McKay, they will give an opportunity for inclusion in the schedule of other half-castes who may be 3hown to be entitled to land grants but whose claims have not yet been submitted to the Commission.

Reduction of Upper Bouse.. The Attorney-General moved his resolution in favour of reducing the number of members of the Legislative Council at the afternoon sitting of that Chamber. He said the duty was not an agreeable one, but the country demanded a reduction. If his proposal were carried oub the reduction in the two Houses would amount to £8,190. It would be proposed to bring the number of members of the House of Representatives down to 75, and it was not likely under such circumstances that Chamber would consent to the Council remaining at its present number. The increases in the number of members of the Council from time to time had not added to its effeciency, and he thought the reduction could be made with considerable advantage. The duty of defining how the scheme was to be carried out would be left to the committee to be appointed. The reduction could not take place ttntil after a dissolution, probably not for three years, but the Parliament having just been returned could consider the matter calmly and dispassionately. The course to be taken in the event of a clisagreementbetween the two Houses need not be considered until hereafter. The Government estimate that) by savings in the honorarium, printing and other legislative expenditure, which would result from their retrenchment in both Houses, a saving of £20,000 would be effected. Seeing that such substantial sums would be saved, and that there could be no loss in efficiency to the country, he asked the Council to_ consider tfee matter from a public point of view. "The matter would probably come before tho Council again in the form of a bill from the House of Representatives, reducing the number of its member*, and ifc would then be convenient to add a clause reducing the number of Legislative Councillors. The Hon. B. Oliver complimented the Attorney-General on his able speech, bufc could not consent on such short notice to such an important constitutional change. If the number of members of the Council were fixed, an enormous amount of power such as would not be desirable to either the country or the Council would be given to them. He estimated that the saving in honorarium which would result from the Government scheme would not exceed £4,000. If the circumstances demanded it he was sure that the Council would rise to the occasion and make a much greater sacrifice than was now demanded. For his own part he entirely disapproved of the payment of members of the Upper Chamber. The Hon. J. C. Richmond thought that time should be given for consideration of the matter, and moved the adjournment of the debate. The Hon. Col. Brett thought that three years hence, on the eve of the general election, would be the proper time for consideration of the proposal. He moved, as an amendment, that the debate be adjourned for three years. (Loud laughter. ) The debate was adjourned for a week.

Chinese Immigration. Mr Reeves made an appeal to the Government yesterday to place a check on Chinese immigration, and referred to steps taken by the Premier of Victoria as a proof of the necessity for protecting ourselves against the invasion from Celestials. The Premier admitted that the question was one of considerable importance, and it was possible, and ho might also say probable, that we would have to protect our civilisation against the civilisation of the Chinese, which, we think, inferior. He did not see any reason to fear an invasion, but the Government would carefully look into the matter and take measures to prevent a possible change of permits to return. If they failed to devise a means to check this practice, they would stop the issue of permits altogether. (Parliamentary nows continued on p&g« 4.)