Address by Sir William Fox.

Te Aroha News, Volume V, Issue 212, 23 July 1887, Page 5

Address by Sir William Fox.

Monday July, 19. Sir William Fox met a number of the electors of this district; inthe Ponsonby Hall last evening for the purpose of explaining his political opinions with a view to his candidature for the seat. The hall was well filled. At eight o'clock, Sir William Fox rose and said he was in an embarrassing position. He had been invited there to meet the electors, and he was present in accordance with that invitation. He had expected that their Political Committee, or whatever they had, would have been present, and would have explained to him what form they expected the meeting lo take. His idea was that he was there to answer questions that they might put to him rather than deliver an address. However, ho would ask them to appoint a chairman, and they could at once proceed with the business of the evening-. Mr D. F. Evans was nominated a? Chair man, and nftei* a brief com ersation with Sir William Fox, he took the chair. In opening the proceedings., he regretted that Sir William Fox had been placed in such an awkward predicament. He had been inMted there to ex phi n his views, and had complied with the invitation. Those who had issued the invitation should have been present on the platform, and should not nave left bir William, as it were, out in the cold. Sir William Fox said that the Chairman had stated his position exactly. Some of their politicians suggested to him that they would like to find another candidate in the iield at Ponsonby, and asked him if he was pieparcd to take that position. He replied that he had no desire to present himself in that capacity unless he was asked to do so by a sulhciont number of electors to show that this was something like a general w ish. In addition to that he was not at that moment prepaied to put himself forward in the matter. He presumed that he was pretty much in the same position as Mr Withy at his first meeting. Mr Withy was not then a candidate, and he (Sir Win, Fox) was not one yet, but he was ready to explain to the electors his views on the present crisis of New Zealand. If liis views represented the iews of a large number of electois,then they should in\ite him to become a- candidate. That was exactly his (the spcakei't) own position. If, after they had heaid his opinions and subjected him to any aummt of crossexamination, thoy might do him the great honour to invite him to contest the seat for Pon&onby; he did nob say that he would do it, but he would give it his serious consideration if a body of the electors were prepared to pledge themsehes towauls securing his success. He wished them to understand, however, that at that moment he was not a candidate for the electoral district of Ponsonbv.

The Present Crisis. He fully recognised the difficulty of dealing with the present cii&is in the affairs of the colony of New Zealand at this moment. Mr w! Leys: Befoie pioceeding, Sir William, will you tell us who invited you to be here (a Aoice : John Lamb, and laughter), because I think it is not honourable on their part that they aie not here to present you to the audience. Sir William Fox said he could notrecollect all the names of the gentlemen, but ix entioned one or two names. The Chairman said that the electors had a perfect right to ask anybody to give them his political views, but he did not think they had any light to ask him vho invited him or why he came. (Applause.) Sir Win. Foa, re&uming, fcaid he appeared before them as a colonibt of New Zealand. One of the audience here asked : Will you declaie yourself as a candidate ? If you v, ill not, how can we abk you questions ? (Intel xuption.) Sir William said that he was not prepared to declare himself a candidate. He had hoped that as an old colonist no difficulties would be placed in the way of his addressing his fellow colonists. He fully recognioed the importance of the present crisis. The country was undoubtedly suffering from hard time*, and what this really meant was that where avc had formerly pounds or sovereigns in our pockets, we had now threepenny bits. (Applause.) He believed that at a crisis like this it was the duty of every statesman to do all he could to bring about a better state of affairs, but he was unfortunately not in a position to point out a remedy for the existing distress. He had read, during the past few days, speeches of some of the principal political statesmen, notably the speeches recently delivered by Sir George Grey and Major Atkinson, and he had come to the conclusion that they had not sufficiently investigated the cause of the hard times. He believed it was impossible to remove the effect before they ascertained the cause, but once they had arrived at the cause they were in a position to consider the best method of removing it. He observed that Major Atkinson had likened New Zealand to a noble and grand ship that had got a heavy list caused by a rivet having become loose. He (Sir Wm. Fox) believed it was the first duty of a statesman to ascertain what rivet it was that caused the leak and why it remained. The fact appeared to be that New Zealand was in this position — there was six feet of water in the well and the pumpß were choked. Any captain with common sense would not set the crew to bail out with a pannikin under such circumstances, but would find out where the leak was and stop it. (Applause.) This was a position which our statesmen did not appear to fully appreciate, and none appeared to study the position closely enough to find out exactly the cause of the hard times, and ascertain by what means they could be remedied by legislative action.

Cause of the Hard Times. He had an idea that he could put his finger on the leak. It was a very big one, and. one which he fancied must be a very material cause of the hard times from which the country was Buffering. It was the terribly low prices to which all the staple commodities of this colony had fallen in the course of the last few years. Our principal articles of export in this colony were corn, wool, gold, and timber. He desired them to look briefly at the history of those articles of export during the past seven years, during which period the present state of paralysis had been creeping upon us. Seven years ago our export of wool amounted to three million per annum, and since then the value of our wool exports had fallen a whole million. As for corn, in 1883 we exported to England and the United States £1,200,000 worth in the year. India entered into the market, and corn went down so low that in a short time it did not pay to send it home. Gold was a thing which did not alter in value, bufc the output was greatly reduced. Seven years ago the mines in the North were in full working order, and tm'ning out three millions sterling a year, and now it was under a million. In timber, however, they would be better able to appreciate the fall that had taken place. They all knew what a magn ; ficent trade it provided, the large number of people it employed, and the dividends which the New Zealand, Auck-

fland, and Union Sash and Door Companies paid in years past. They knew this, and also what was the condition of the timber timber industry now. When he was at Aratapu recently he saw forty stalwart men dismissed from one of the timber mills because there was no demand for the tim- . ber. These four articles, wool, corn, gold> and timber, were worth four or five millions a year less than they were seven years ago, and it seemed to himself impossible to look at fcheso figures and fail to see that a very large proportion of the hardness of the times now prevalont must be attributable to the causes he had named. Of course they would ask, " How do you propose to remove them ?" and, unfortunately, he was not in a position to say. Ho knewof no way himself by which the condition of these articles of export could be altered in this country, j The fact was that the prices of wool, corn, and timber were regulated by the demand for those articles that existed in the great markets of the world. We, unfortunately, could not affect them. Prices were down now, and lie feaied that down they must remain until that great financial depression which now existed over the whole world had passed away. He would be very glad if any one could show the colony how the field for its commodities could be improved, because on this point ho could not see his Avay very clearly. He had found a similar state of things in America a year and a-half ago, and it was the same in both Germany and France, whether in free-trade or protection countries. Many of them, indeed, were much worse than New Zealand. He had no suggestion to mako as to where the remedy lay, for he believed that the hard times would in due course pass away. At the present time the great nations of Europe were living in a state of preparation for a great war. Millions of men had been taken out of the labour market, to be placed in a state of proficiency in view of war, vessels were laid up in large numbers in all the great harbours, and many of the States were absolutely bankrupt and anxious for a war, in order that they might wipe out their enormous debts and start afresh with a clean sheet. Theie were one or two other causes, and although he would not allude to them at that moment, he would do so by-and-by if they wished. But in regaid to the commodities he thought it was all the same, whether they were dealing -with countiies that were under free trade or protection duties. In Ameiica, France, and Germany the financial pressure was as hard as here, and nearly as hard in England as there. But our great statesmen had not given the attention to the subject that they should. They weie looking for a leak, and he thought he had put his finger upon it. There was not one of our statesmen who had found a remedy from the great black cloud that was all o\ er us.

The Liquor Traffic. Another reason he would offer for the present fctate of things, and they must not mistake and think he was going to impose a temperance lecture on them, but this was n, subject which they should look at from its financial aspect. Now, we had drunk last year no less than £2,300,000 worth of liquor. Thet>e figures were taken fiom carefully-compiled Government {statistics. They should look carefully at this, that our public debt is about thirty - seven millions, and th.it £2,300,000 spent on liquor represented the annual interest on forty millions ot money. It seemed to him that this was a leak, and that he had put his finger on a loose rivet. (Cheers, and cries of *' Give us politics and not teetotalism.") That was politics, and it was part of his policy to give the ppople the power of doing away with this. We had not the power to remove other causes of our difficulties, but we could remove this one. Some people might say that the liquor traffic brought us in a noble revenue, and so it did. It brought in £500,000 a year. But that money did not stay with them. It passed into the Treasury, and the next day it passed out again to pay for our gaols and asylums, and paupers, and police and magistrates. (A voice : "Do you advise that for retrenchment?") Yes, he did. The figures were accurate, and half-a-million of revenue went to pay for the gaols and asylums which were filled by the traffic, and for other expenses consequent upon it. This was a species of leak we could rivet up. He had only touched upon it because none of our statesmen had touched upon it as a remedy for the present state of things. He had read admirable speeches by Sir George Grey, Major Atkinson, Messrs Rollefeton, Bryce, and others, and not one of them had made the slightest allusion to this point.

Retrenchment. Ifc seemed to him when he was reading Major Atkinson's speech that day that the whole thing had resolved itself into the question whether Major Atkinson's or Sir Julius Vogel's policy had been the cause of the evil that had overtaken the colony. He did not believe that either one or the other was the cause, although it might have intensified the evil. The colony was in this predicament. It was bleeding at every pore, and already on the verge of bankruptcy, and yet the Government go on borrowing more and more, and sinking us more deeply in our difficulties. That was not the policy of a business man in private life, who, finding himself in difficulties, would at once cut down his expenses. He considered that there was a difference between the two parties in this matter. One party did not see the necessity for retrenchment, until Sir Robert Stout went down to Dunedin and found that the cry for it had become a roar. If Sir Julius Vogel was blamed for his policy, he had no one else to thank but himself. He was an old colleague of the Colonial Treasurer's, and had a great respect for him, but he had been warned when he came to the colony. When Sir Julius took office, he wrote to him from Sydney, and told him it was not Major Atkinson's policy that was causing the depression, nor would it be remedied by hie, for they were suffering from the same thing in New South Wales and in Queensland, and in fact all over the colonies. The effect of retrenchment on a proper basis would be to make us honest men, and to render unnecessary the heavy additional taxation which Sir Robert Stout's Government proposed to put on us. It was necessary that an end be put to their Extravagant policy, and therefore he posed as a determined economist, and one who would go for retrenchment in every form. He believed we could retrench to the extent of from L 300,000 to L 500,000 in our annual expenditure. That would stop one of our leaks and make us honest men, and would restore our credit I on the English Stock Exchange. Then we would get a firm footing, and would have no more of the perilous threat of increased taxation hanging over our heads and j making every man in the community tremble.

Free Trade v. Protection. He asked them to look afc one or two of the remedies proposed. They were very important, and it was well that they should . know how they were going to apply them. He must make one great confession to them, and he feared it would not be i palatable to them. One remedy that was j proposed and was accepted by many, al- j though not by all, was that we should have !

protective laws amounting almost to prohibition on all things we could make ourselves. - He might tell them that he was an out-and-out free-trader. (Cheers and expressions of dissent. ) He had studied the subject in his young days under Bright and Cobden, and had kept it before him ever since, and he had come to the conclusion that protection was a mistake. He had gob so bigoted on the subject as tins, that he lookeclupon free trade almost as much a law of Nature as gravitation ; and they knew that gravitation was a law of Nature that could not be broken without bad consequences resulting. He next spoke of a man who said that he was a free trader in England, but that in New Zealand circumstances were entirely different, and he was unable to adhere to the same principles. He might ju&t as well have said that in England honesty was the best policy, but that in this colony it was altogether different. A principle was a principle no matter where ib was applied ; therefore, if he satisfied himself that it would injure a State to bring in protection, he believed it. wherever he j might be. What, he asked, was protec- \ tion ? It simply meant that he was to take their money to make his trade 01 that they were to take his money to make their trade' to pay That was the fundamental principle of protection, and they could not look at it in any other way. The position was, for instance, that he could buy a pair of English-made boots for 15s~, and the protectionist said that he should pay 4s more, and purchase boots locally made. Another reason why he opposed protection was because he was a great Radical (laughter) — not a .senseless Radical. Study, instruction, and experience had made" him so, and he was convinced that there could be nothing more conducive to a class tax than protection. Sometimes it taxed a very large class for the benefit of a small one. His thiid reason was tl.at he hal never yet heard of any kind of piotection which, by benefiting one man, did not injure another person alongside of him. Sir UeorgeGiey had given a very good instance of this recently. He stated that a few years ago a duty had been placed on foreign sugar, for the purpose of encouraging the manufacture of beet sugar within the colony. It was &peedily found, however, that this would ruin the jam trade, and it had to be given up. (Laughter.) A similar ca&e occurred in Massachusetts, where the people were anxious to compete with England in the manufactuie of woollen goods. A heavy duty was accordingly put on English cloth, and the price of cloth went up amazingly. Everything went on well for a little while, but it was discovered that in order to make the scheme a success it was necessary to have a supply of law material, and they had come to New Zealand to the tune of L 500.000 a year. This did not suit the fanners in America, however, who objected to this cheap wool coming in and keeping the market- down. The matter was taken into the House of Congress at the instance of the American manufactuteis, and they got a duty of six cents per lb placed on imported wool. The consequence was that wool went up in Massachusetts, the factories closed, and 2,000 employees were thrown out of worn. Consequently it was clearly impossible to make one man's fortune without doing an injiuy to somebody alongside of him. (Applause. ) " He found that after 33 years of protection there were 300,000 manufacturing laboiuers out of employment in the United States, and that in Massachusetts there were between 20,000 and 40,000 unemployed. That was the case when he passed through America a year and a-half ago, and he believed that since then things had become even worse. There was in America a veryh'ne body ot men called the Knights of Labour, and they actually sent a deputation across to England to ask why our English labourers were bo much better paid than they were. The answer they got was because they had protection and we had free trade. The Ameiicans had made gigantic efforts to become a great maritime nation, and at one time they wete carrying no less than 80 per cent, of the products of their own country in Amencan ships. Now Ameiica did not export more than 10 per cent, in her own bottoms, and he traced this retrograde movement to the imposition of a heavy duty on iron. The consequence was that they weie unable to compete with English shipbuilders, who were under the system^ of free-trade. In fact, if there was any nation that had tried to cut its own throat by protection, it was America.

Bonuses to Industries. He was quite willing to give bonuses, and large bonuses too, to anyone who would successfully introduce new industries. He did not propose to give them money to throw away in experiments. Take, for instance, the manufacture of iron. If any man made the production of iron here a success, he did not think it would be too much to give him hundreds of thousands. (Cheers.) Then again, take salt. If anyone established an industry that would produce an article to compete with the salt imported from England, he would be satisfied to give a good bonus there. Then again take the silk industry. If anyone established this industry successfully, he would be prepared to give them a L 20,000 bonus if they liked. It was a sound principle, and did not infringe the principle of free trade in any way, to grant bonuses for the establishment of industries.

The l*and Question. And now they would pass on to the land question. Ifc was said by some people that this question of the land was the cause of the whole of our troubles. One friend of his, in fact, said that they should take the land from those who have it and give it to those ■who have it not, and that they would thus remove the difficulties under which they laboured. IHe did not agree with them. He had very wide views on this question. He looked at the land question from the simplest point of view. He thought they should sell the land to the best customer, and let the country get the money. But there were other questions with regard to the land which had a great social and moral aspect. He would place a limit on the acquisition of gigantic estates, and would endeavour to meet the wishes of •the people as much as possible. Ho would help men to buy a freehold, and thought that the , freehold system was the best tenure there was. (Cheers.) He would also bo prepared to give leaseholds or renewals of leaseholds. They could put it any way they liked, but they shouid get the people on the land. He had been the founder of a considerable number of small farnn in New Zealand, and his opinion was that they should place the land within the reach of the people in every possible way. As the land stood at present, it was compulsory that a man who took up land should go upon it and occupy it himself. (A. voice: "And quite right, too.'') Ho did not think so, and instanced a system that had prevailed in the South, where associations of about twenty men perhaps took up land, and those of the number who did not wish to go upon it then could employ substitutes to take their places. This efiected the object jof having the land cultivated. (A 'voice: "Keep out land sharks.") Yes,

he would keep^ out land sharks, but this was a very difficult thing to do, because they could come in after the settlers had improved their land, and buy it back from them. He did not approve of Sir George Grey'b idea of giving the State power to buy everybody's land back from them. The principle might be a good one, but it required looking into, and the power was one that should be very carefully exercised. He did not believe in the nationalisation of the land, and asked what State was it that was going to acquire the land. Why, Sir Robert Stout and Sir Julius Vogel to-day, and somebody else tomorrow.' Those who looked upon the occupation of the land as the only remedy for our troubles made a great mistake. Wore we all to be tillers of land, with our splendid opportunities for commerce and manufactures ? Were we to b£ a set of potato-grubbers all our lives ? God forbid. Our country was as large as Great Britain, and we might have a commerce as large as that of Great Britain yet. We fchould encourage our commerce, trade, and manufactureis. What a fine thing if we had more of those five thousand ton steamers running here, and what fine nurseries they would prove for our boys. Ho had seen the fatlu-rs in New Zealand asking what they would do with their boye. The mothers did not ask what would they do with their girls, because they gotmarried. But what opportunities for employment those large steamers gave our sone. Our career was a mixed one, and we were to be cosmopolitan regarding trade and commerce. The wide world was before us, and it was for us to go in and occupy it. (A voice : "' The North Pole," and laughter.)

Minor Questions. Ho had given his opinion on the leading topics that wore agitating the colony, and they might like to know something of the minor topics. They might ask what they were to do with their great burden of parliamentary expenditure, and what about the honorariums ? He warned them that if they did not make a stand, they would never get the members to lower these honorariums. All the high salaries— from the Governor's downwardb~should be cut down, and the Government expenses and that great pi inting establishment reduced. Altogether, Parliament cost the country L 40.000 per annum. Through some political parties, they got two of these little bills in one year, and they had to thank Sir Robert iStout for the second session this year. If he had chosen, he might have got the Representation Bill through a year ago. (Cheers. ) He had adopted an unconstitutional course in placing the Representation Bill on the table of the House, and not making it a Ministerial measure, and he was al&o wrong in allowing three or four of his Ministers to vote against it. So far as the expenditure of Ministers went, he might say that he had been Premier three or four times, and the firbt time he had only got LSOO a year, and that was in a more ciitical time than we have had since. There were Avars in the Waikato and on the East and West Coasts, and notwithstanding all the work they had to do, they were satisfied with LSOO. And then they had no Hinemoa to carry them about in, and no Ministeiial le&idences. He did not see why the Piemiei should have moie than the others ; but the Premier might have LI, OOO and the others LSOO. They should not be paid more than that. He would not reduce members' honorarium lower than LI2.J. A man going to Wellington would not spend more than L 5 per week.

Education. A great deal ha I been said about the cost of educating the people, but it did no>> cost so much as was supposed. The direct taxation amounted to L30G,000. This simply represented the cost of a glass of beer a day for every man in the country, and he who would not sacrifice that did not deserve to have his children educated. He believed they would be very much disappointed if they expected to get retrenchment on education. He was not in favour of the proposal to raise the minimum school age to seven years. Country schools were dependent very much \ipon the attendance of children under those ages, and if these were debancd, theie would not be enough to pay mastei s' salaries. We must not leave the people without education. The speaker concluded his address amidst loud cheers.

Replies to Questions. Sir William Fox then expressed Ms willingness to answer questions put to him. In reply to questions he said he was decidedly in favour of the reduction of the number of members of the House. The present number did not only act badly in the House, but at the time of the elections. In the country districts, the elections generally turned on the log-rolling process, and a smart fellow who would promise anything could generally get in. There were some men who talked as many as nine hours. He would be in favour of reducing the honorarium of the Upper House. But they could not do it except by going to the Imperial Parliament. The best thing would be to make things pleasant for them, and let them die out in time. He would not revise the protective tariff in the direction of making it more protective than it is. He did not think he would vote for either the Stout or Atkinson party. He thought a better party than either would come forward. He could not say off-hand whether he would support the removal of 2s per hundred feet on timber. He did not know if there was a duty on timber. What we wanted was a better market in Australia, where they imported timber from North America and the Baltic. He did not know of any industry that was now flourishing that had been started with a bonus. (A voice: "Fish," and laughter.) A good many bonuses had been offered, and few of them claimed. He did not know that the Mos°iel factory was protected more than anything else. He was not aware that the Mosgiel factory collapsed under the bonus system, and did not start again till a protective tariff was put on. He feared a great difficulty of an income tax here would be its collection .: the machinery would be complex, and would not work well. Why should they tax land only? The present tax covered all kinds of property. Farming was a very struggling industry, and he feared a land tax would affect it prejudicially. Many interests, such as banks, would escape altogether under a land tax, although oney were caught by the property tax. He was not particular what the form of taxation was, so long as, it fell fairly. He did not know whether Major Atkinson left LI 50,000 deficiency when he left the Treasury Benches, and could not tell whether he was tho first to manufacture deficiency bills. He was independent of either party, and would vote for the party that were endeavouring to retrench. He would not vote for the policy of the present Government. He could not support Ballance's stringent protective policy. If it came to a test, he would vote to turn the present Government out. His experience was that the HallAtkinson Government practised vigorous and even cruel retrenchment. He believed they could employ their rising population, if they had not'a protective tariff, as they did in other free trade countries, by the development of the industrial wealth of the country. We could not do away with the law of entail, because wo have not got it. The

borrowing, for public works took place Under j>he Ministry of which -he was thd lead. The first loan for the commencement of public works was ten millions, and he left office before that money was spent. The country was with them, and he did not regret that step, which led to a revival of prosperity at a very bad time. The only lines that vi ere made while he was in office were portions of the main trunk line. He always thought stx-ongly of the political lines that Avere made subsequently. The question of renewal of leases of rutis was a complicated one. There were portions of the colony of no use whatever except for sheep faiming. He thought that where the land was useful for agricultural purposes, and small farmers could be located upon it, he would not support the renewal of the leases. But where the land was only suitable for pastoral pursuits, he thought it unsvise to do anything that would damage the greatest of our sources of wealth, which gave us three millions a year from the export of wool. He did not think the salaries in the education department were excessive. Be would cut down anything that was too high. The higher education did not involve an expendituie that could be retrenched much upon. He thought, however, that as much as L 40,000 or L 50.000 might be retrenched in tho total expenditure. He did not think the railways ot the colony had been well managed. Concerning Mr Vaile's piopo&al, he was inclined to give it a tiial at a moderate cost in some part of the country. So far as the principle of giving grants of land for the construction of railways went, it had worked well so far as the Manawatu i ail way was concerned. That line was better constructed and more satisfactorily managed than the Government line alongside of it, and paid 5 per cent. He was in favour of "one man, one vote." In comparing Victoiia and New .South Wales he stated that the former was a very peculiar country. It had enormous wealth in its gold mines, and much smaller territory than New South Wales. He denied that the prospects of Victoria were better, and said New South Wales was overhauling her fast. Any special tax on unimproved lands should depend upon the quality of the land, but there weie special ca.ses where taxes could be levied. He did not believe the Kaffirs would ever be brought here to act as shearers. It was not so easy to catch the Kaffirs, and Sir George Grey could tell them that. The large run-holders had no special tax on their land, but there was a tax on sheep. If the land was valuable for the reception of colonists he would not be in favour of renewing their leases for runs. He considered the purchase by the Government of unprofitable railways an atiocious job. He was in favour of taking land from run-holders by paying a fair compensation. The eight hours' movement lesolved itself into a question of political economy. Wages would be paid according to the amount of work done. He was in favour of woman's suffrage. Sir William proceeded to enter into a lengthy explanation of his claim again.st the colony which resulted in the payment oi L' 2,000 to him last year. He said that after reporting with Sir Dillon Bell on the land claims on the West Coast, he was asked by the Government to carry out the xecomniendations of the repoit. He did so, and spent about three years and a half in the most arduous work he ever performed in the colony. He was asked to make a claim for his sci vices, but said he would make a present of it to the colony. Subsequently, when in England, he received advices of heavy losses in companies and other matteis in which lie was concerned, and then wrote to the Government asking if he might under these circumstances avail himself of the remuneration he had previously refused. The matter occupied the attention of the Atkinson and Stout Governments, and the result was a vote of L 2,000, which was paid to him after last session. That was the whole claim he ever had against the Government, and it was satisfied. Mr McKinstry moved a hearty vote of thanks to Sir William Fox for his instructive lecture. Mr Joshua Robinson seconded the motion, and also thought a vote of thanks was due to Mr Gregory for his action in bringing Sir William forward. Mr Gregory explained his action, and after some discussion of a desultory nature relative to the arrangements for the meeting, the motion was carried unanimously. Sir William Fox expressed his acknowledgments, and the meeting concluded ■\\ ith the usual thanks to the chair.