PARLIAMENTARY. (From "Auckland Star" special correspondent) Wellington, May 28.

Te Aroha News, Volume IV, Issue 206, 4 June 1887, Page 1

PARLIAMENTARY. (From " Auckland Star" special correspondent ) Wellington, May 28.

Sir Julius Voxel's Keply. Tiie no-confidence debate was resumed this afternoon by Sir Julius Vogel. He compared the Estimates of the present year with those of the previous Administration, and held that large savings had been effected. Major Atkinson had erroneously stated the deficit at £192,000, and this increased the actual amount by £100,000 more than it should have been. (Major Atkinson interjected that his figures showed the difference between the revenue and the estimates). The deficit was £92,000. The savings stated were genuine, and those on the railways had been effected only by increasing vigilance, while the savings in the Customs vote were nearly all on salaries. Of the £750,000 worth of debentures issued, £300,000 worth had been paid off. Larcer, services in the departments had required large expenditure, while on the other hand the substantial savings which the speaker referred to in detail had been effected in other departments, such as Colonial Secretary's, Treasurer's,and in land revenue. He held that the system of reductions in the Civil Service salaries was made on a better principle than the 10 per cent, i eduction effected under Major Atkinson's administration. The Government had been compelled to face veiy serious difficulties during the period they had been in office, and their policy had been checked to the detriment of the colony by the refusal of the House two years ago to increase the tariff. Major Atkinson's sudden interest in the exterminating of rabbits was extraordinary, seeing that he did nothing towards that object during tho many years that he was in oijice. The present Government had done more to grapple with the land question than the previous administrations. He ridiculed the idea that the graduated property tax would injure our credit in the English money market. If our credit had survived the introduction of property tax, it would survive the modification now proposed. The speaker proceeded to refer to the loss that would be caused to the revenue by the adoption of the amendment. Money would have to be returned to importers, and every bond here and in Australia would be cleared of the goods specified before they would ha^e another opportunity of revising the tariff. The adoption of the amendment would mean a profit of a quarter of a million to the importers. The question with the Government was not that of increasing the tariff, but of providing: revenue to meet expenditure. They had to take some steps to bring the Customs revenue back to what it was four years ago or provide other means of taxation, and he was satisfied that country settlers would see it co be to their interests to support the increased tariff rather than have the other alternative put upon them. He defended tho principles of protection applied to a young country like New Zealand in the interests of local industries, and quoted figures to show that cement, rice, and other articles on which there is a heavy protective duty are cheaper now than in 1880. Much was said about the unearned increment of land, .but what about the unearned increment of foreign labour? Sir Julius Vogel proceeded to question the bona fides of those who voted for the resolutions against the tariff at the meetings of Chambers of Commerce, and asserted that he had a letter from some of the leading merchants of Dunedin, stating that they were no party to the resolutions passed by the Chamber of Commerce. He was content that his name would not be forgotten in the future. (Laughter.) But what had the membsr for Egmont done that his name should be specially honoured in connection with the colony's history? The National Insurance and converting New Zealand into a province of an Australian dominion were two of his pet projects, but neither had been carried into effect. The District and Roads and Bridges Construction Act, and railways were other matters with which he might hand his name down to posterity. The Treasurer claimed that the native policy of the Government had been a j great success, and said that there should nave been colonial rejoicings over the fact that New Zealand had been made into a separate naval station. He expressed surprise that the leader of the Opposition had not congratulated the Government on the accomplishment of that fact. If Major Atkinson returned to office he was not likely to give more serious attenion to retrenchment than he had in the past. In conclusion he chaffed the member for Egmont with being afraid to criminate himself as to the nature of the proposals he intended to submit for those he sought now to condemn.

Mr Ormond's Speech. .Mr Ornaond followed, and charged the Treasurer with haying neglected most of the charges made against the Government in that debate. The only thing he had done was to admit that the tariff proposals were protective. He had said nothing on the question of retrenchment, though that was a question now before the House, except by attempting to try and shuffle out of it by witticism at the expense of those who spoke against the Government. He (Mr Ormond) had been disappointed with Sir Julius Vogel's career Bince he returned to the colony in 1884. They had not experienced the " leaps and bounds" promised, but, on the other hand, were now before the House with a confession of a deficit and the necessity for increased taxation. He considered that the history of the Government had been most unsatisfactory, and proceeded to trace it for the past three years, charging them with retaining office when theyTiad not authority, and with passing nothing of any satisfaction to the colony. The House now intended to force on the Government the necessity for an appreciable reduction in the expenditure, and with this object in view all sections voting for the amendment were going to join. ' He did not deny that somo small savings might have

been made, but concluded that they were not of the magnitude the Government said they were. If savings had beon mode,it was on the education vote, and that only because the Government had not carried out the Education Act and stood on the statute book. (Sir Julius Vogel : You opposed the proposals to provide for extra schools.) Mr Ormond said of course he had, because it was sought by a sidewind to cast the cost on the local bodies. As to the Civil Service, he believed it should share in the effects of the depression, but he would nob be a party to specially taxing any single class in the community though he would not object to a system of taxation by which all incomes could be taxed. The people of the colony demanded that the Governor's salary and allowances should be reduced, and in declining to reduce them the Government showed they did not understand the wants of the colony, Last year ten thousand pounds odd wero swallowed up by the Governor's salaiy and allowances, and the colony could not continue this. Ministers' salaries and allowances must be j greatly reduced. As to the honorarium, it was the duty of the Government to have proposed a reduction. With regard to the Laud Fund, it was a question for the colony as to how far it could afford to allow a largo sum of money to remain idle, to carry out what was simply an experiment ; and he believed the present depression was greatly due to the land system now in vogue. He charged the Government with doing incalculable mischief by their land settlement proposals, especially to thoso now being put on the land without capital or with borrowed money. He knew for a fact too that the speeches made by the j Premier and Minister of Lands had had the effect of sending away from the colony men with a large amount of capital, money which would have been of great use to the colony at the present time. He was not of the same opinion as the members for St. Albans and Motueka, that the administration of the Governnent had been satisfactory, and had not entitled them to forfeit the confidence of the House. He did not forget what happened in the House last year, when a Select Committee were inquiring into the Government Insurance and Stark purchase scandals, and the payment of a large sum of money to a private member of the House. It was a scandal that the fentlemen to whom alargesum of money had een paid away improperly was allowed to retain his seat in the House. He sympathised with the hon. member for Auckland East in his efforts to obtain a refund of that sum of money which he considered unjustly paid away, and ho believed for services rendered. It was a bad principle of Government that the House allowed gentlemen to retain seats as advisers of the Crown after they had abandoned all the political principles they were pledged to. It was this abrogation of political principles that had led to confusion in public affairs and the want of cohesion between parties. He thought it would only be right that a dissolution should be granted. A dissolution was only practicable under the Representation Act which had just passed the House, and it behoved the Government to see that this was done. He hoped that in event of a dissolution the electors would also give their verdict relative to the arrangement of lands and the question of borrowing. It was the duty of members to see that this resolution was passed.

Mr Seddon's Speech. Mr Seddon was the next speaker, and his rising was the signal for an exodus of members from the House. He held that there had been a marked improvement in the country and the inhabitants Eince the advent of the Government to power. The speaker proceeded to accuse Mr Ormond of being one of the speakers and the f ramer of the resolution asking the Government to retain office at a caucus held after the defeat of the tariff proposals two years ago ; but the member for Napier characterised this as a misstatement. Mr Seddon's remarks were interrupted by the 5.30 adjournment, and he resumed on the House reassembling. He cited Hansard to show that Mr Ormond had supported the property tax and voted for it. The member for Napier had spoken bitterly against the Treasurer's borrowing proEosals, and had shown his inconsistency y trying to get half a million of money on local Harbour works. If public works were stopped the price of labour would be reduced, and the vast estates, such as those owned by Mr Ormond, would be worked much cheaper and more profitably to the hon. member. The speaker, however, preferred to see all reproductive works pushed on. Mr Ormond had demanded an extension of railways in' Hawke'a Bay district, yet he complained that the Government haa not shown great retrenchment in this Department. He (Mr Seddon) referred to the Windsor railway accident as a fear* ful example of working the railways too cheaply. He denied that the Government or Ministers were overpaid, and defended their pergrinations thrpugh the country in order to satisfy themselves as to what was taking place. The native policy of the presentGovernmentwasto prevent Maorisbeing wronged by land sharks. As to the debentures purchase inquiry, he said that he felt pained at the remarks made by Mr Ormond that afternoon. That honourable gentleman did not act fairly and impartially during that inquiry. (The Premier: Hear, hear.) The evidence clearly vindicated the Treasurer's character, and he left the Court without a stain on his character. The member for Waimate had also been honourably acquitted, and it was unfair that this question should now be raked up against the present administration. Hitting below th,e belt was unmanly and un-British, and should not be tolerated. The proposals of the Government were in favour of manufacturers, farmers, and working men, but distasteful to large land proprietors, the importers, and banking institutions. Selling land under existing circumstances — and that was Major Atkinson's alternative — meant pauperism to the, country. -He contended that the tariff proposed would, profit New Zealand, and declared himself in favour of protection.

A Maori member's Reasons. Wi Katenesaidhe would like, , to speak because of the confusion caused in hie mind,

by some hon. gentlemen wishing himfto speak on one side and on the other. It was his desire when he came to Wellington to vote with the Government, but he was apprehensive because of the Tariff Bill. He did not think the burden of taxation would press nearly so heavy on the rich man as on the poor man. It was his desire to vote with the Government, but he believed this first bill they had brought down would cast a heavy burden on the people. He had great respect for his old colleagues, tho Minister of Works and Colonial Treasurer, though he must say he had some doubt respecting the soundness of the latter's financial policy. He could not forget the fact that the only stake the Colonial Treasurer had in the country was his seat in tho House. He earnestly hoped for a dissolution as soon as possible, and thought it would be best for the country ; so if the Government came back with a majority he Avould take it as a proof that the country had confidence in them. He would hold himself free to support them if they returned, but for the present, if he voted at all, he would vote for tho amendment, although he might not be there when the division was taken.

Oitlier Speeches. Mr Scobie Mackenzie followed, and in his opening remarks severely criticised the Government tactics in putting up the member for Kumara to waste so much of the time of the House. He regarded the financial proposals as atrocious, and if he had drafted the amendment he would have liked to have said that they were portentous of evil to the country. We commenced last year wish a sham surplus made up of pilfering from the Sinking Fund, and now we had to faco an alarming and disastrous collapse in revenue. He denied that the fall of revenue arose, as the Treasurer had stated, from the growth of temperance ; in reality it had arisen from the diminished spending power of the people, attributable in a lat ge measure to the heavy taxation. He held that the increase of the Customs duties meant that almost the whole of the large additional revenuo that would be derived from this source would come from the pockets of the labouring and poorer classes who were already overtaxed. The only remedy for our difficulties was a complete and radical system of retrenchment that would shake the whole social fabric to its foundation. He believed that the movement would come from the people, but it was the duty of the Government to originate it. Civil servants must expect to be subject to retrenchment, just as employees of private firms are in bad times. We required natural streams of capital to this colony, with population accompanying it. It could only be attracted here by a sense of security in the investment of it He accused the Premier of defection from those Liberal principles which had won for him the admiration of the country, and produced as a proof of his argument a pamphlet bearing the name of Robert Stout. That pamphlet was written when the Premier was free and unbiassed, and before he allowed his individuality to be merged into that of the Colonial Treasurer. The Premier had been placed in his high office in the interests of the country, but none of those who placed him there were prepared to hear him whining that the House would not let him do this, or the country let him do that. They had seen the Premier and his Ministry crawling along the surface of politics like a wounded worm ready to let anyone put his heel on and crush them. They had lived or fattened on vicious principle and corrupt purpose, and held their seats at every cost. It had been said that when the history of the colony came to be written, the blame for the last three years would be placed on the proper shoulders. He wished to God that the history of the colony for the last two years had been written on a slate, so that the sponge of oblivion might be drawn over the record of shame and disgrace. If there was only one seat in the country, and he could only obtain it by the supporting of the financial policy submitted by the Government, he would rather remain in obscurity than accept it. The hon. gentleman sat down amidst warm applause. Mr Menteath condemned the protective tariff proposed as being calculated to add to the many additional monopolies and the burdens of the people. He denounced the Government policy, but would vote against the amendment, as he had pledged them his support because they had carried out the works required by Nelson, and especially as they had arranged for the construction of the Midland railway. They were on the eve of a general election,and if his constituents chose to return him untrammelled he would be glad to come back to Parliament, but he would refuse to come back trammelled and fettered t>y the pledges under which he had been sitting during the past three years. Mi* Pearson said he came here as .an independent member after the last general election, and was one of the few Canterbury members who did not pledge themselves to support Sir Julius Vogel's policy. For two sessions he had supported the Government, but a few weeks ago, when addressing his constituents, he told them he would not support any Ministry that did not go in for a thorough system of retrench ment before putting on extra taxation. He declared that no thorough system of retrenchment had been foreshadowed in the Ministerial policy. In taking the course of voting against the Government he did so with the object that before any mci eased taxation was. imposed on the country the constituents should be consulted. He was not afraid , to go before his constituents, nor was he to be intimidated by threats of seceding from his party. He held himself free to secede when he was dissatisfied with the party which he had been supporting. (Applause.) Rather than accept the financial proposals of the Government he would be ; relegated to obscurity and live on his farni for the rest of his 1 life. He did not care for, the taunts of members. , T,he only tribunal he recognised was his constituents, and he was satisfied their verdict would endorse his action. He urged that material retrenchment could be effected, and suggested doin> awaj with the Native, Minis- , ter and Minister of Mines. , .

Mr Cowan said that he also had been returned unpledged with party ties. The financial proposals of the Government would not have his support, as they did not at all meet his views with regard to the necessities of the case, as in 1885 the tariff duly weighed on the taxpayers of the country, and a- very small portion of the proposed duties were for the encouragement of local industry. He especially disapproved of the proposals on account of the burdens they imposed on the agricultural industry. llcalfofeltdisappointedthattheGovernment had not coped with the retrenchment question. Had the leader of the Opposition indicated in a drastic manner in what direction ho would effect retrenchment, he (Mr Cowan) would have supported the amendment. Seeing that there had been a failure on Major Atkinson's part in that respect, he would vote with the Government on the present occasion. He | had, howover, indicated to the Premier in a i written communication that he could not support their tariff proposals.

The Division- i The question was put at twenty minutes to one, and on the voices being taken the Speaker, Sir G. M. O'Rorke, declared in favour of the " Ayes." Mr Richardson called for a division, which resulted in the discomfiture of the Government, the voting being : Ayes, 38 : Noes, 42. The second reading of the Bill having been negatived, it became the duty of the Speaker to put Major Atkinson's amendment. On the voice being taken, he declared that this had been earned, but the Premier called for a division. The words " That in the opinion of this House the tariff and other financial proposals of the Government are unsatisfactory " were carried by 42 to 38. The announcement was received with Opposition cheers, Messrs Seddon and Guinness leading off similar applause on behalf of Ministerial supporters. The following was the division list : — Ayes, 42. Noes, 38. Allwright Ballance Atkinson Bevan Barren Cadman Beetham CoAvan Bruce Duncan Buchanan Fraser, F. H. Buckland, W. F. Fraser, W. Connolly Garrick Dodson Grace Fergus Guinness Fisher Holmes Fulton Ivess Hamlin Jones Hirst Joyce Hislop Kerr Hobbs Lance Hursthouse Larnach Lake Levestam Locke McKenzie, J. Me Arthur McMillan McKenzie, M. J. S. Menteath Mitchelson Moss Monk O'Callaghan Moat O'Connor Montgomery Pere Newman Pratt Ormond Richardson, E. Peacock Samuel Reese Seddon Richardson, G. F. Smith Rplleston Steward, W. J. Ross Steward, W. D. Russell Stout Sutter Taylor Taipua Tole Thompson, T. Turnbull Thomson, J. W. Vogel Trimble Walker Wakefield. Whyte Wilson Katene PAIRS. For. Against. Buckland, J. C. Hatch Bryce Fitzherbert Mills Bracken Pearson Reid Grey Gore Pyke Dargaville On the Premier's motion the House adjourned at one o'clock.