PUBLIC WORKS DEBATES.

Te Aroha News, Volume IV, Issue 163, 31 July 1886, Page 6

PUBLIC WORKS DEBATES .

The Government Treat Mr Richardson's Amendment as a Party Question. July 27. The debate was resumed at 7.30 last night by Mr J. McKenzie. It appeared to him that the debate had assumed the aspect of a no-confidence one without a motion to give effect to it. The real grievance of the Opposition party seemed to be in fact that the Government had not asked for a loan of ten millions. Mr McKenzie proceeded to critcise the remarks of the speakers who had preceded him. He asserted that the Atkinson Ministry spent nine millions, and this elicited an interjection from Major Atkinson that the Grey Government were responsible for five millions of thig amount, while one million for the North Teland Trunk Kailway had not been raised yet. Mr McKenzie retorted that the Grey Government might have raised five millions of money, thus leading to an obvious inference.' He thought it would be a mistake to suddenly cease borrowing. We required a policy of progress in moderation, and believing that tho loan proposed would contiibute towards this object, he would Bupport it. Mr G. F. Richard?on asserted that the Government were responsible for Captain Russell's amendment last year, because they accepted and gave effect to it, Ho, therefore, did not think it right for them to seek to cast their responsibility on other shoulders. He thought more urgency should be uped in acquiring lands on the route of the North Island railway, and, in fact, more attention should be paid to that point than to construction for the present. Apart from thie work the lines in the North Island requiring most consideration wera those north of Auckland, and for Woodville and Palmerßton. In respect of these and other works, he thought tbo schedule of the Loan Bill could be greatly improved, in tho interests of the colony. With respect; to the Midland Railway, he thought the Government should epend no money on railways, roads, mines, etc , until tho syndicate had made their pelection of lands. The Otago Central Railway occupied the most important position amongst the lines in the South Island, and he regretted that better provision had not been made for this work. The provision for the eeaward bush line was also ineufficient. The most objectionable feature in the schedule of the new Loan Bill was the proposal to construct new lines for which there was no warrant. There was no good or sufficient reason given for the expenditure of £175,0C0, for instance, on the Blen-heim-Tophouee and Westport-luangahua lines. Th ia.it must be remembered, was only a vote to start the works, and they had no idea what the works would eventually ccst. The lines were within the limits of the lands granted to the East and West Coast Railway Company. He saw no reason for commencing these new lines, which at most could only be feeders to the Midland Railway, and would be entirely in their interest. Believing the Government would be willing to accept any reasonable alteration in the schedule, he proposed to move the following amendment ; — " That this House will agree to read this bill a second time as soon as the schedule han been amended so as to provide for completing or carrying to a working point the unfinished railways before new lines are commenced. That, therefore, the items, Blenheim— Tophouse, £68,000, and' Weatport-Inangahua, £63,000, bs struck out, and the item permanent way sleepers and rolling stock, £370,000, be reduced by the sum of £44,000, being the proportion of the amount proposed to be expended out of thie item on the aforesaid lines, and that the Bum of £175,000 so saved be allocated in the following proportions :— Main Trunk Line, North of Auckland, £35,000; Napier — Palmerston .North and Woodville, £45,000 ; Blenheim 1 ' Awatere, *. • £25.000 ; Otago Contrail £60,000 ; Seaward Bueh,

extension £10,000.'* These amounts are additional to those given in the schedule of the Loan Bill for the same works. , , The Premier held that amendment was not in order, but the Speaker ruled that it was. " The Premier replied that it would not mean anything. ; Major Atkinson : Oh, yes it will. Mr Dargaville rose to formally second the amendment, which, he said, was moved for the purpose of extending the debate and giving some hon. members a chance to air their eloquence before the House again. The speaker proceeded to reply to a statement of the member for Waitotara, that the administration of the Govern* ment had broken down. He asked if the native administration had broken down, and was convinced it had not. That policy had fully vindicated the Native Minister. Mr Dargaville proceeded with a defence of the general policy of the Government since they took office. He accused the Atkinson Administration of a vast expenditure of public money ou works that were praotically unproductive. After roundly abusing Major Atkinson and his friends, Mr Dargaville proceeded to Bay that he was not altogether satisfied with the Government. He had objected to their propoeal to take money from the North Island Trunk Railway Loan for the purchase of lands. He did not think the erection' .of schools should be thrown on local bodies, nor was he satisfied with the provision made for the nor£h •of Auckland Line, but at the same time he would this Government credit for being the first to recognise the claims of the settlers in the far North. This line and the Otago Central were the two works which were entitled to the most consideration from Government, and if it became neceasary to borrow a further loan next year to complete the Otago Central to Lake Taeri, and extend the North Auckland lino, he did not see why it should not be done. In fact, he thought it would be the duty of the Premier to propose next year to raise a further loan of a million. It was in times of prosperity that they could cease to borrow, but not in times like the present. The Premier had been trapped by the leader of the Opposition into saying that there would be no loan next year, but he thought in the interests of the colony this pledge should be qualified. Dr. Newman ridiculed the idea of Mr Dargaville thinking about the consistency of members when it was notorious last year that even the whips could never tell on which side the member for Auckland West's next vote was going. It Bsemed that the favouring gale blaw from the Government direction during the present session, and until the proragation he believed the hon, gentleman's vane would incline in the direction of Ministerial Benchep. He looked upon the speeches of the Premier and the Colonial Treasurer before the session as mere political balloons or feelert, on the French principle, and therefore justifiable. He objected to contracts being offered exclusively to Maoris, an'd immigrants being introduced while we had thousands of people out of employment here. Our railways, he thought, were fairly well managed. He objected to any interference with the North Island Trunk Railway loan, and unless Borne alteration be made in Sir Julius Vogel's North Island Trunk Railway Application Bill, he would move that the word "application" in tho title be altered to " obstruction." He thought it would have been far better for the Go vernment to have left the North Island loan intact and borrowed a million this year and a million next year. He could noL ccc how the Government were to do without a loan next year. He believed somewhere about a million was the sum that should be borrowed annually, and it was all moon shine for the Premier to tell the inhabitants of the third largest city in tho Australasian colonies that they would have a grand jubilee in three years on the opening of the Worth Island line. Two years had already gone, and not half-a-mile of tho line hud been finished. At tho present rate, the railway would not bo finished till the year 1900. Hee*\en nlone knew why the Government had produced such a loan schedule as that before the Houee. Hd suggested that a short line from Christchurch to Sumner, costing only a few thousand 0 , would be a great improvement on the Westport line, and would meet with a great deal of support. The Premier rose at 10 o'clock. He said that of all the peculiarly conducted dobatcg ho Had ever listened to this waa (he mosfc peculiar. Sir Eobert referred to the method adopted in conducting the debate, and said the courfe pursued in putting up the member for Mataura to move an amendment was remarkable, rle asserted that the vote of £10,000 for the Seaward Bush line was put in to please the member for Mataura. The attitude the Government intended to take up was this— They did not intend to alow tha Opposition to dictate to them concerning the schedule of the Loan Bill before ifc reached Committee. If the motion •wai carried, other Ministers would have to take charge of the Loan Bill. (Cheerp. ) If members had waited till the bill got into Committee, they might have chopped it about as they pleased. Sir Robert explained that he would have spoken at an earlier period of the debate, but owing to tho illness of the Colonial Treasurer he expected he would ! have had to reply for that gentleman, and consequently waited He then proceeded to reply to the eucceesive attacks made on the administration of himself and his colleagues. He etill repeated that it would not contribute to sound finance if they spent borrowed money on roads. Ifc was the duty of local bodies to provide for that expenditure, although he did not say tho Government should not assist. He had always held that they should make thiß colony so attractive that psnplo would come here and settle without our borrowing large sums to bring them to the colony. The object of the member for Napier was to get the burden of taxation off land and place the taxation on personal property aad customs duties. The Government had always endeavoured to place a fair chare of taxation on the land, and if this intention continued to be repie ted the effect would be such a revulsion of feeling that heavy taxation would be imposed on land, The members for Parnell, Waikato, and other districts were dismissed in a couple of sentences, and the speaker then expressed the opinion that the oreed of the member for Mount Ida might be summaii-ed aa economy, abolition of Gold Du*y, and the Otago Central Railway (Mr Scobie McKenzie dissented) The speech of the member for Wakatipu was described as thunder without lightning. The alleged railways mismanagement was denied* and the speaker asked for specific charges ? The passenger and freight rates had been reduced. Did members want lower salaries to be paid, fewer officers emplojed, less trains ruhs,or were the carriage? too good ? The speaker strongly condemned the proposal to establish non-political boards of railway management. In connection' with most of the railways, the Government were guided by experts, and had endeavoured to expend such sums as would 'make the money already spent produce something. The gentlemen who were pushing on the completion of the Gorge line knew that the

work would 'throw all the traffio on the Manawatu line, and he was convinced that it would lead to an attempt to make the colony buy the Manawatu line at an exorbitant price. The object of ,the BlenheimAwatere vote in the amendment was, he asserted, an attempt to play into the hands of a few large land-owners in the province of Marlborough.Then the Tophouseproposal was only for survey, but unless the main line went on its construction would not be proceeded with, and so it was with the Weatport - Inaugahua; He denied that the, money spent , on the North Island Trunk Railway account had been frittered away on roads and -bridges. The amount spent on railway work proper was over £10,000; while the expenditure on all other purposes did not amount to bo much. rlf r If the money was not to be taken from this loan for the purpose' of native lands on the route, where, he asked, was it to come from ? It was impossible for us to compete with foreign countries unless we had" railways* to cheapen' production, and he predicted that railway construction would' do for us on a lesser scale what it had . done . for India on a large scale. Cheap carriage was absolutely-necessary -for us, and, .could easily be obtained. He denied that his views relating to borrowing had changed. He said both at Dunedin and Invercargill that he was not going in, for borrowing for. borrowing's'sake; but jf they required cheap transit, they could' only get it by 1 railways^ though, he said, and 'not' for .the' last time, that borrowing must stop at no distant, date, if the colony was not to be ruined. The House was ' not sincere in its talk about economy and no borrowing, and this was shown in their opposition to the endeavour to place the cost of school buildings, charitable aid, etc., on the local bodies. ; The Opposition showed* their sincerity concerning the borrowing when they made an alteration of £175,000 in , the Loan schedule without seeking to reduce the loan proposals. They did not -want to borrow less, but to get more for, /their own districts , When the Midland line was; completed they would find- that Blenheim would have to be connected with Tophouee, and more money would have to be borrowed for this purpose- The time was coming when they would bave to spend half a million instead of a million, and he hoped next year to see the Estimates reduced by one half. He asserted that not only he,but all the Ministers, had striven to promote economy on the Ministerial t Benches, but only they knew the, difficulties of the position and how many applicants they had to offend, because they could not give them what they wanted. He asked the House to coneider the amendment fairly, and if they found that they could do without any of these works, let them bo struck out, and -the loan be Jreduced. Sir Robert concluded a splendid speech by saying that Ministers would not bo influenced by any considerations of their seats on the Ministerial benches so much as their desire to advance the future of this fine colony, independent of present considerations. After the supper adjournment, Major Atkinson resumed the debate by -saying that he had listened to the powerful and eloquent address of the Premier with a mingled feeling of pain and pleasure — pain because it contrasted -with the proposals of the Government, and pleasure because he conceived in that- speech the Premier, at last, asserted bia proper position. He would like to ccc the hon. gentleman continue at the head of the Grovernmcntjbut v> ith this one condition that he would be Premier, and give effect to his own expres-.ed opinions. (Hear, hear.) The speech just delivered was an able one, and he sincerely hoped that it would be given effoct to. He asked in what respect had the Premier led the Hou?e towards economy by the wretched Civil Service Bill, to fix the salaries of Civil Servants according to the price of potatoes. (Laughter). The thing was ridiculous on the face of it, and to call it economy was trifling with the House. The only economy in the matter of local govern ment had been the gradual placiag ot everything possible upon local rates instead of upon the consolidated revenue. The climax was reached when the Treasurer told the House he could remit one sixteenth qf a penny on the property tax. They could at last rejoice on having an economical Government. The • member for Napier had to leave tho Government because they were apostate in the cause of local government. Then they were to havd great economy and great advantages if they would only consent to railway boards. Had any railway reform been carried by the present Government ? [The Premier: AJgreat number] The Ministor for Works tells the House (hat after two and a-half years' careful study, not hampered by railway board?, and willing to sacrifice a large portion of revenue, in order to mako things pleasant and useful to the country, he had still to make weekly alterations in the tariff All the Ministers had had .to mako the confession that they could Dot carry out tho promises they had madeon taking office, thus proving that they had obtained their seats on false pretences After the Premier's statements concerning Railway Boards, and the Minister for Public Workb' official statement on the question, it was surprising that the latter did not retire. It was gratifying to hear tho Premier stepping out and leading the Bouse in this direction, in which he would find two-thirds of ,tho Houpe would follow. The Premier had said that in two or three yearß they would have to step borrowing. The Premier : No. Major Atkinson : Well then, will the Premier toll us what he did say, or what he meant to say ? Tho Premier : Tn a few years. Major Atkinson said ho had taken a note- of the words used, and they wore, in " two or throe years wo shall have to stop borrowing," which was confirmed by Messrs ltolleston, Barron and others. The speaker proceeded, to say that he never hud the slightest donbt, that tho Government would liave to buy the Manawatu rail way referred to by the Premier, and that it was only upon the most severe pressure the Government had over allowed private companies to buy theso lines. The Premier told them they only proposed to survey the Tophoxisc line, but ho did not add that, they proposed to borrow £100,000, car-marked for tho construction of that line, and available for no other purpose than that for which it was obtained trom tho public creditor. But ho sympathised with tho Prom er "when he said, " Are wo to make railwai sto in'erease value of wealthy landowners property in Marlborough ?" He believed tho Premier would have the support of every member of the Opposition if he propo e ed to tax tho lands that woro directly benonted by railway lino 3. When they carried their amendment, as he had no doubt they would, he would not ohiect to tho Premier making any alterations he|pleased in the schedule of tho Loau Bill. The Inangahua Wcstport lino was indefensible." Looking over the schedule it appeared to the Opposition that it did not do what the Premier wanted, and thercforo the proposal by the member for Mataura, which would have the cfFcct of carrying certain lines to a point where they would. bo likely to provo payable. The Premier asked them where he was to got tho money for the purchase of native lands if he did not take it from tho North Island Trunk Loan. Quito so. He told the Premier longago that they had no money for the pxirposo, but ho did not think . the Houso , .would agree to money being taken out of that loan. Tho Premier night find it whore ho pleaSpd, but not from that source. The clauses throwing the cost of school buildings on local bodios were rejected, not because they objectod to receive tho proposals from the Government, but because they objected* to getting them piecemeal. They asked for their policy, and as it,-Was not foithcoming, tKey rejected the

IWfffwmi* I^ l7 to J thc Premier he asserted Jvm«o«« House did want economy and reduction Bfnr^fl S> »^ e ft sked U tJ ?e Premier himself was K re l rt and o l f so ' would lie come down and *&i ™ reduce the estimates by fifty, sixty pr seventy thousand pounds? The Opposition would strengthen his hands into Sv™ fcy i \ uppo S t " he would come down with a Fi^^F o^ 1 nP red - u . co tne estimates. Morethan that, the Opposition were quite prepared to assist him.tp reduce the loan proposals? i£ h£ had said, -the hon. gentleman should rise to tht position, and he felt that the House would S with him t the country would justify hiifi and he would here prove himself sincere.^rhis vettf* proposals want increased borrowing next year because they are now voting all the money available except £50,000, wHile £200,000 was wanted for roads alone next year. He offered to prove his figures privately to the Premier before any of his accountants. He appealed' in. conclusion, to the Premier to rise to the occasion: and lead the House in the direction of economy and retrenchment. * *u Th t onia 31 3 1 Treasurer followed. He said they had heard the great speech of the Premier, ana the little speech of the member for EemonK He accused the latter of pcttishneßs, and rid£ culed Major Atkinson's assumption that the Premier was not acting in concert with the Government. He held that they were improving the system of local'governmont; and it was witß no assistance from the member for Egmont He said the question of boards of railway management still occupied the attention of the Government. # His colleague had shown that night difficulties in the way of placing the railways in. .the jnands of a board not responsible to the Government, but all his colleagues recognised the value of a Board of Advice. He was free to admit that they had not re-modelled the local government system so easily as expected, but that was because they found things in a worse state than was expected when they took office. ' ihey were, however, re-modelling these matters to such an extent tliat Very soon there would be little left of the Atkinson legislation '• on our Statute Book. (Mai or Atkinson! "HoW labout the Property Tax?") The member 'for ' Egmont, he asserted, dared not move the amend.ment which he had got the member for Matauta" to bring forward. He denied that the Govern- l ment took their scats on the Treasury Benches : under false presences. Loans wore necessary to carry on th o p üblie works of the colony. He failed to see any desire for retrenchment because the application from members of both,' sides of the House for works in their districts were more numerous than in previous years soi , numerous that ho was afraid to tot up the results.' The present move Avas so transparent that he din. not believe i hat members would readily fall nto the trap. The speaker proceeded to replyto the remarks of the hon. gentleman who had spoken during the progress of the debate. He contrasted the quiet and determined action M V<. Ba l 1 '7' nc 1 c during the' recent native ' difficulty with the fuss and excitement that attended Mr JJrvce's endeavour to suppress the trouble on the West Coast. If, as asserted, they ' were wearing the Opposition clothes, and. car.ying out the Opposition policy, why, he asked, did the Opposition cavil at them. Referring to a previous statement relative to gold in the Clutha river, (he speaker proceeded ' to say that he had followed the subject further, and found there were thousands of rivers in the colony which contained vast quantities ofgolrl, only requiring- engineering skill to win it from its bed. The member for Egmont, he said, had repeatedly endeavoured. ' to draw him into making statements relative to the probable future loans, knowing that anything on such a sn hject would bo prejudicial to the prospects of the present loan. Sir Jmius Vog'ol concluded a few minutes before 2 a.m. Mr Montgomery rose a/nirlst fries of '"adjourn." The Premier declined to adjourn. Mr Montgomery, replying to a statement by Sii' Julius Vo/fcl, satd no would never have joired any government which had the present Colonjal Treasurer at its head. He slid, he camo here in 1885 prepared to support the Government, but he found the tax-ition to bo rnor*n»msly increased and their proposals 60 unsatisfactory that he was driven, into opf.o=itioj, ar d again when he found toafc the Colonial Treasurer wanted to' give £97,00.1 a yfcar for twenty years to Mr Meiggs coulH he support such a proposal. He could' not oon-cientioudy do so. When ha found the Property Tax, bo vehemently disclaimed against, aiiil the tax of the couatr;-*, he found reason for being in opposition. At 2 10a.m, Mr Buchanan. Major Atkinson, Captain i us** 11, Mr HollcHton, and others, desired the adjournment of thu debate, but the Govi rnmentotgecteJ. A number of members Dressed for adjournment, others opposed. Sir Geo. Grey said he had not intended raking part in thf debite, > vi a't<--r the sceech of thB Colonial Treasur r. he certainly desired to do m). Othora Bpok<> in the same strain. At 2.30 a m. » motion b? Mr Connolly that the debate be aojourned w-»s rrje -tori by 33 to 23. Mr Ro leaton resumed th« dobato-. which he considered w a \ a<*-uming a serious phase. He accused tho T.eas-ur r of petulance, nnn said his spscch was fall of offensive personalities and it was evident that the House was ashamed of the position .Hiablcd boiled when he listened to the personal attack on the late administration* He defended the Atkinson Government, ard held that their adminstration had led to the steady progress anil advancement of the country, while Mr Bryce's native policy had naved tho way for Mr Ballance. Sir J. Vogel hid told them that via name wouia .live in the country when Mr Montgomery's was forgoUen, but it) would be on the principle thit the evil deeds of men live after thorn, Mr Rolleaton. preceded to criticise the Public Worlcs Statem 'rxt and Loan Bill at le-.iv'tb, and ppoke till pas' i n.m. At that .time a division wta taken on ihe quest'oa that the Houte&djournrd, A^c, 2i; Noes M. Mr Moss commenced ac ilO o.m. He was sorry the Government was pressing She debate, because it was the most import am that they hid had for years. He doubted the t-incerity of the Premier in his eloquent speech, and said for two" rears we had had nothing but ulaquenti speeches— words without deeds. At 4.20 a.m. the SpeakPr received intimation that the "Hansard" tt-itf waa breaking down, an i announced the fact to the House. .Major Atkinson asked the Premier if ho proposed going on in the fo.ee of this fact. Tho Premier objected to the tactics of tr>e Opposition. /,He thought this discussion should be adjourned till t>ie bill went into Committee. The member who wa 'spenkingwasadoptingtheusualrourse. This beinc his second sueech on the Bill, Mr Moss replied that the Premier was adopting »n unusual course in on^eavourinsr to suppress debite. Did the Pj-tinier object to be criticised ?- M- Moss proceeded to ctitici&otheGoV'rnment'd policy. He said h« did not object to borrowing four millions more if he coultt Bee an md. It the, amendmer.t waa carried he would move -further, that > he balance cf £T7o O'O bo neither derored 'o railwej*s< pn&t expecdiiuve, or to cover )iab,lities on railway material or rolling fctock. At a quarter to 5 a m , Mr Rpovea mover! the adjournn ent of the Housa, as oir Gl'o. Grey wished to speak on the debate. The Premier pointed out that this wou'd quash the •whole bill. Major Atkiiison saidt^ey did not want that. He denouaced the action, of tho Premier in. seeking to ttflo debate, as the member foe Auckland Kast had not had a chance to Bucak. Tri'- reporters had lrfc the "Hansard" gallerj-, and it was not fair to ask him to go on. He Md never seen a night to equal this in the House. I'te Government were extending the session, and it mu*t not be thought thai tho colony wo lid not h j ar of this. MrTurnbull asserted that MHjor Atkinson, during his administration, lcpt theai there till 7 a m ' Mr Rolleaton asked if meTrbers w-^re to b» gagyr^d like this, and their first institutions to sacrifised Mr Duncan cald thora would hava been no objection to the adjournment of tie House if T.be'OpP""<iiion had not nndenvoured to force-it. He had set n repc/rteTS fall asleep at their workbefore now, the House being kept going contin mou sly. Mr Buchanan said he wished to speak, and other members ab3ent would like to take part in the debate. Mr Kerr thought the Government had priven away far too much to the Opposition alrandy. Colonel Ti'inable blamed Mr John McKenzie. the Government whip, for prolonging the debate beyond Friday ni^hc by moving the adjournment of the debate tfcen in order that the Colonial Treasurer might speak,. The debate) had now assumed a new phaso. Mr Lock also deserved an adjourn ment. Sir George Gray hoped his mouth would not be olosad, the Colonial Treasurer had pleaded great poverty, and said, he had received nothing from the colony. He wishod to show that be or other porsona connected with him had received large sums of monevrrom the colony. It he were a Minister, he would walk off the nenches sooner than bo oannpet-id with a Government, ihat wsu!d permit such thingß as the stoppage of this debate. At tea minutas past 5 a.m. the Government conceded the point, and the debate was adjourned on the motion of Mr Cowan. The Debate continued. July 28. Ix order. that the House might at once proceed with the adjourned debate on Mr 6.P: , Kichardeons amendment on the Loan Bill, and Public Works Statement, the Premier yesterday afternoon > moved that all quea-^ tions be postponed till to-day. This was agreed to, and the debate was resumed, by Mr Cpwan, who said that although Mr jßichardaon's amendment was not a wanb of confidence motion, it could not be con

«trued as a direction to the Government to take baok their public works policy, ' seeing that the amendment proposed to increase certain appropriations. He was of opinion that it was somewhat out of order, but the Speaker had ruled otherwise. It seemed to him that the amendment was merely intended as a fight for office. He admitted that the members for Mataura and Wakatipu were -well qualified to till the portfolio >of Works Minister in any Administration. At the same time, he hoped the amendment, would be rejected by a substantial majority. fie was not satisfied with the schedule to the Ix>an Bill, as he felt that railways in course of construction should have been brought to a payable point before ' pow lines, 'were commenced. Hitherto too much money had been • spent on < unreproductive works. Be regretted that the proposals of the Government with regard to school buildings had not been received with favour by the House, because he regarded it as a deoentralising policy. It must be patent to all that we were getting a larger number of* lines of railway than were required by . the population. That being so, immigration must* be considered together with the question of the public works polioy. The unemployed difficulty was Ao new thing in the South, for it was heard there years ago, ' when .things were uncommonly brisk in Auckland. The question had been mainly met in the Soutii by very considerable local efforts, slightly aided by support from the General Government. In his opinion the Government should confine tneir efforts aa regards* immigration to those nominated by their » friends. The Government were to be commended for the provisions they had made in respect to opening up the country by roads. • As to railway reform, he would like to see the administration popularised by a reduction of fares and freights, such locs to the revenue to be compensated for by increasing the accumulated wealth through the Property Tax. There wore too many railway servants employed. . *nd further retrenchment could be effected in this direction. The management of the South Inland railways from Wellington ought to be remedied, and he hoped the Government would bring in a bill showing their matured opinions on the question of Railway Boards. The Government had been twitted with being the cause of the loes of party lines, but in his opinion the Public Works policy was responsible for this. Captain Sutter thought that if school buildings were to be charged to local bodies it should be done by means of an amendment of the Education Act, and not by a side wind in the manner that had been proposed. The propoeale of the Government for borrowing .were unduly extravagant. Mr T. Thompson rose for the purpose of explaining his vote on the present occasion. He waa not a supporter of the present Go rernment, nor would he be bo long as the Government was constituted as at present did he think that the time had come for the return of Major Atkinson to the Treasury Benches. While he was satisfied that the K«an proposals were sufficiently moderate, he took exception to the way in which it was proposed to expend the Amount. No real retrenchment was to be obtained by carrying the amendment. For these reasons he should support the second reading of the Loan Bill, with the hope that the schedule would be amended in committee. Another reason for supporting the second reading of the bill was with a view that the works estimates might be pushed on, and work be put in hand forthwith, with a view to relieving the unemployed. Had a direct issue been placed before him, he should have voted against the Government as he had done hitherto, but he would not support a side issue without knowing who was to replace them. , Mr W. F. Buckland said it was clear that the hon. member for Hokonui would support any Government who were willing to purchase the Waimea Plains Kail way, which was in his district. Mr Holmes rose to a point of order. Was it not unfair to charge an bon. member with supporting a Government for favours to be received ? The Speaker replied that it was clearly out of order to attribute unworthy motives. Mr Buckland : Sir, I do not think that it is an unworthy motive to give a vote on such terms. The Speaker: It is attributing an unworthy motive to say that a vote is given for the purpose of getting money spent in any particular district. Mr Buckland retracted the expression, fent pointed out that while Mr Cowan had promised his constituents to get an additional vote for the Seaward Bush line, be now opposed the amendment which gave £10,000 additional to that railway. The amendment also proposed to atop new lines and construct those in hand to paying points showed that it exactly carried out the hon. member's idea. The speaker pointed out that it was impossible to keep the labouring population in work without borrowing. Cast iron rules for railway management did not apply to the condition of the colony, and instead of encouraging traffic, it was driving it away. Inßtead of fighting over political railways, they ehou'd try and give relief to the colony Mr Lake said he could not understand the objection of the Government to verge the reasonable amendment proposed. How did the Government defend the notorious purchase on the North jShojp for battery purposes. He charged the Treasurer with using undignified language towards the leader of the Opposition, and ?aid that lew would agree with him in iis aspersions on the hon. member for Waitotar*' The member for Auckland West was like a weather cock, always looking in the detection from which the wind favours were expected to come. The diversion of the North Island Trunk Loan to purchase of native land was an .iniquitious proposal, and be appealed to Southern members to Tesietu with no uncertain sound. He intended to support the amendment. Mr-'Buchanan denied that the Opposition metnberfe were actuated solely by the 43e*ire of obtaining votes for their own districts. He challenged the Premier to prove . the truth of this in his (the speaker's) own case. Why, in the Wairarapa district, . because he and his colleague (Mr Beetham) , voted fegainat the Government, they could .no.t, .get Justices of the Peace appointed. . Such unreproductive railway works as the Blenheim-!? ophouse and Westport Itiangaihua were not to becomparedin valne with the opening of the Seventy-mile Bush and other yaluable lands in the North Island by roads. ..He assured the Government that till they faced their duty in these mutters, they would never give satisfaction to the unsettled parts of the oountry. -The amendment of the member for Mataura was in the direction itdvocated by the Premier, viz , that incom- : pleie' works must be pushed to a conclusion, - «,that borrowing might be tapered down •«« quickly as possible. Would the'com- *- wencement of new lines tend to taper down '.i;. i ;* > °3 rTOW 3 n X ? The Premier was aeaociated •^iVS? 1 " J. Vogel, who from the very mo • V*P. e «s of his return to the colony had be.en \' the very incarnation of borrowing. Tliese* 1 two hon. gentlemen were entirely a'n ftagonisdo Jn. their wishes on the question; of borrowing. If Sir Robert fihowecl more itrecgth of character, and became really

the. Premier, he would' gain more support, but his professions as to tapering borrowing had come to be distributed, owing to the overpowering influence of the Treasurer in the Cabinet. In local government also the Premier had belied his professions. It had been said that the Government were unassailable as to their administration, but the result of the management of the present Minister for. Works failed to cure the evils which he complained of, in his predecessors.. The. radical changes and reforms that had, been promised had .vanished, into the air. As to the schedule to the Loan Bill, he objected to the inclusion oi the Blenheim-Tophouse and,Westport-Inanga-hua linos, and it was his. opinion that the membep for Mataura, should have contented himself with striking out: the Bum of £175,000,, without attempting to apportion the amount so saved pieoemeal on other works. In committee it, would be his endeavour to get these two new lines excised At. the evening sitting all the galleries were tilled, and considerable interest was evinced in the proceedings, 7 , , Mr Buchanan only occupied the House a few minutes in completing^his remarks. < Referring to the Treasurer's remark that Captr. Russell's resolution' of last had depreciated the price of labour 10 per cent., ! he said that as an employer of labour he had ! found no such reduction, nor did he believe iit had taken place; but supposing fchere'had been such a reduction, did the hon. member believe for one moment' that capital would be left unused ? He intended to support the amendment. Mr Taylor asked if the Opposition were prepared, like their great prototype, Judas Iscariot, to sell the best interests of the country for a "few dirty pieces of silver (Heat and laughter). Those gentlemen were well-known place hunters. The Speaker called for a withdrawal of the words, to which the hon. member acceded: Mr Taylor proceeded to say that the worst feature they had to deal with was that they had a dozen expectant Colonial Treasurers in the House. vVhen the hon. member for Wakatipu got on the question of public woYks he was a shingle ehort. The hon. member for Napier (Mr Ormond) had said that the Ministry were wearing the clothes of the Opposition. The fact was that when the latter occupied the Treasury Benches they had no clothes of their own. The only clothes the Opposition ever had was a suit, which they had " prigged" brand new from the member for Auckland City East. When they came to try them on, they found they would not fit at all. (Laughter.) UnleßS the member for Waitotara had reserved a Maori, the latter Minister would have gone out of office with as little to wear as Adam and Eve were reputed to have. (Renewed laughter.) He sympathised with the Speaker in having to remain in his chair to listen to the weary platitudes "which were being continually brought under his notice. Mr Locke would explain the vote he was going to give. Had a direct no-confidence motion been tabled by the leader of the Opposition, he would have felij bound to support it, but he felt that the present amendment was only a waste of time, and should, therefore, vote against it. At the same time he felt satisfied that the schedule proposed by the member for Mataura was a more satisfactory one than that proposed by the Loan Bill. Sir George Grey said .that, supposing borrowing were to suddenly close, the colony would have to ,pay a million and a-half interest to England, and not one penny would be left for necessary internal expenditure. It would then take twelve or fifteen years for us to emerge from the difficulties into whiqh we would be involved. It would thus be seen that borrowing for several years was a matter of necessity. He claimed that had not the Premier stifled his Land Settlement Bill, a panacea for the evils under which we were suffering would have been provided. If a great opening were offered to the population of Great Britain to come here on our lands, we might very much alleviate the distress existing at Home, and other countries might follow in the same direction. As to our railways, he argued that we should abandon the idea of making a profit out of them, being satisfied with getting the cost of working the lines. Railway reform wae one of the first great reforms to be undertaken. The unemployed difficulty arose in part from the difficulty of the men distributing their labour at those points where it was principally required. From an authority he could not doubt, he knew that there were well-deserving families plunged in distress. Now, he maintained that it was the duty of the Government to find work for these people. If too much labour congregated at one centre, it was unfair to expect local bodies to provide employment for them. Then the Government should not be allowed to offer an unfair price for a day's labour, for the effect of this would be to reduce the average price of labour. He regretted that the Premier had od several occasions spoken unkindly to the unemployed. These men should be employed to open up the Crown lands of the colony, and the most deserving might be settled on them. He said a fatal mistake had been allowed by permitting the Government Insurance Association to purchase costly buildings before Parliament had been asked to sanction such purchases. Unlees the vast estates in the colony were soon broken up the population would become destitute, and as badly off as the miserable population of England now is. Mr Bevan considered the debate purpose less. He protested against the tone which had been taken from the' Government, and against the colony being held up to the gloomy assertions which had been made in the course of the debate He argued that the Otago Central Railway should not be constructed, because the whole of Otago was infested by rabbits The leader of the Opposition was not a croaker — he was a truo statesman, but, wanted to be in better company. Speaking of the member for Waikouiti, Mr Bevan said that Mr Buckland would . never occupy a seat, on the Ministerial benches. He must be satisfied to be champion of the lawn tennis courr, and the beau ideal of an afternoon, tea-party. It was strange how that hon. gentleman and other Oppositionists consistently voted against any work the Government supported. The member for Franklyn North (the other Buckland) was a regular lexicon of knowledge, gilt-edged, but bound up in calf. (Laughter,) The address that morning of the member for Geraldine (Mr Rolle?ton) was neither manly nor justifiable. When Minister for Minos, his name had got to be a reproach on the West Coast on account of hia neglect of the mining interest. Ho (the speaker) scored a decided point by speaking of the Opposition as the political Agnews of the -Treasury, benches. (The Agnews, as our readers have been more than once told, are incessantly worrying, members with their fancied grievance.)' The member for Auckland East ought have been compelled to deliver .his speech at daylight .that morning instead of waiting" till evening, 'for it wag plain hislyanity was 'such that , he ppuld^ only address, the House when' the, ladies' /galTery^ was ' full. ' In ' conclViion Mr j Bevan warmly defended the Treasurer "from the attacks made on him.

Mr Hatch said the, railway service was over-manned, and the Departments seemed to want to grab all they could. The amendment was " too thin ' to expect hoh. members to allow it to upset the business of the country, Mr Dodeon could have no confidence in any Government of which the Colonial Treasurer was a member. His opposition to that hon. member was simply on the grounds of his public career. The Premier's speech of last night' was a credit to this House and to the colony, whilst that of the i Treasurer was querulous, ill-natured, aud I that of adisappointedman. The Premier had advocated no borrowing, whilethe Treasurer cried out for more borrowing. As to the Tophousc-Blenheim line, the speaker admitted that although it was in his district,. he would prefer to see it struck off the schedule to the Lean Bill, and the money apportioned for it .spent on the railways already begun. He defended the firmness of Mr Bryce'a native policy from the sneers of the Premier. He asked that the Awatere line be carried to a paying point by an expenditure of twenty-five thousand pounds instead of the money being spent on new lines which would not be required in Marlborough for some years. The Treasurer was not a 0010- ' nis^ in the proper sense of the word, and the loss of office would mean his immediately seeking another place. , His public works policy had left a burden on the colony, and it would be impossible to suddenly taper off borrowing. He feared the Treasurer aa an embodiment of recklessness and extravagance, and as a spendthrift, and for that reason aloae considered that it would be calamitous to the colony to allow him to remain on those benches. He should support the amendment. Mr Duncan took up the running after the supper adjournment by deprecating the attack made on the Colonial Treasurer by Mr Rollestou. Speaking of the railway management, he said that road metal and building stones could be carried in the slack season, when trucks were lying idle. The member for Geraldine should be classed with the Treasurer, for he had grid ironed Canterbury and let it out into large estates. He should vote against the amendment, but in committee on the schedule of the loan bill might have to vote in a different direction. Mr Bruce said no-confidence debates were becoming every-day occurrences. He denied that he regarded the amendment as a no-confidence motion, and if he did he should either have voted with the Government or abstained from voting in the division, for he conceived that such resolutions should only be proposed by leaders of the House. He absolutely denied that this was a scuffle for office on the part of the Opposition, The rank and file of that section of the ' House did not wish to turn the Government out j while Major Atkinson and his late colleagues, who had for their five years' tenure of office a record of valuable public service, were well aware that the country wasnotyet ripe for their return to the Treaguryßenches. Coming to the question of public works he was not prepared to say that our borrowing policy had been a failure, but the borrowing policy had had a most demoralising effect on the country and on the floor of the House. Would it be denied that the representatives were not measured so much by their ability, integrity, and general capability for their office, as by their ability to procure funds from the State Exchequer for their particular districts ? It was his opinion that the most successful in this respect had not proved the best of our statesmen. (Hear). He conceived that the colony was committed to an expenditure of ten millions, and how then was it possible to taper off borrowing and cease to borrow in two or three years ? He was an advocate of moderate borrowing, and hoped it would be restiicted to one million for reproductive works. One of the blots of the present administration was tbeir inclination to unduly favour their political supporters. He protested against the diversion of the North Island Trunk Loan, and said that if the money wa3 required to purchase native lands, it could be taken from votes intended for the new railway. The late Native Minister's policy had been stigmatised as tyrannical. In his opinion the hon. member for Waitotara, in dealing with the Maoris, had shown strength, wisdom, and generosity. His administration had saved the colony from armed rebellion The speaker concluded by saying that he hoped the Premier would nail his colours to the mast,' and be true to the speech he had delivered last night. (Hear, hear). Though opposed to Sir Robert Stout politically, he recognised that that hon. gentleman was possessed of broad human sympathy, as well as of unquestionable ability. He intended supporting the amendment. Mr Gore eaid he agreed with the amend ment in so far that it was undesirable to commence new lines. As an Otago mem bar, it was a great inducement to him to vote for the amendment, seeing it gave an additional £00,000 to the Otigo Central Railway. But if the amendmont had been sincerely conceived, it should have been moved when the Loan Bill was committed, and the eehedule was under consideration. (The Premier: Hear, hear.) He would therefore vote for the second reading of the bill, but with the reservation that he could oppose any votes he felt inclined to vote against when the schedule was under consideration. Mr Beetham justified his vote for the amendment on the ground that the extra vote^ proposed for the railway .from Napier to Palmerston would open up the country in his electorate. He reiterated his belief that money should be spent in opening up lands to bush country in preferencb to railways. fie supported the amendment, not with a view of turning the Government out, but because the lines already commenced should be completed to paying points. Mr Barron reminded the last speaker that he need have no misgivings as to the cessation of the construction of roads. In the present Public Works Statement a larger amount was set down for roads and bridges than had been setdown for someyears. The Treasurer told them 1 last night that by turning the Clutha River they would have untold wealth. At one time it waa the South Sea Island scheme, at another the Arafura Sea, at another the fisheries, and another Piotection. He charged Sir Julius Vogel with continuing to hold a portfolio long after he had lost the confidence of a majoiity of the House. He asked the Premier to give an assurance that no further loan bill would be introduced before the .Slat March, 1888, and not simply that a loan would not be raised. He paused for a reply. Ministers were silent. They knew they were probably misleading the House, as they were frequently, unfortunately, under the necessity of doing.. After an experience of nine sessions the hon. member declared that the debate never influenced a single vote. He should vote for the amendment. ' Mr Fulton charged the Government with having departed from every shred of policy they announced on taking the Treasury benches. 1 They had .accused thel late Minieter, of .having l a , wait-and-lie-down 'Poljcyj, While their. ow k n ".policy ,had> been a 1 wait-^and -be-kicked policy, , >He,,remiuded the JBjause of the degradation, to which those" honourable 'members were subjected last session. He was glad to see that the Fre-

mier had at least realised what the House and .country wanted — the brake on Sir Julius Vogel. . Mr Levestam was opposed to those hon. members who wanted the North of Auckland and Otago Central lines pushed on as rapidly as possible. Maps juat circulated in the lobbies showed that Otago was overrun by rabbits, and it was therefore undesirable that the^ line should be constructed. In Nelson only twenty .miles of railway had been constructed in 16 j earp> and yet it was proposed to leave that provincial district out, in .the cold, so that the lines now in course of construction should be completed. At 1,80 the' Speaker put the question, "TDhat'the New Zealand Loan Bill be now, rend a second time." Sir Maurice, in taking voices, declared that the Ayes had it.but Mr G, F. Richardson called for a division, which was taken with the following result : Ayes, 30 : noes, 16. The result was received with Ministerial cheers. The following is the division list : —

Ayes. Bevan (teller) Frazer Cadman Gore I Duncan Guinness Fitzherbert . " Hatch , , i Holmes J. McMillan Ivess ' , Q'Callaghan (teller) Lance Reese j Larnach r ' Reid Levestam Richardson " McKenzie E. Ross I Samuel Thompson, T. Seddon Tole ; Smith Turnbull ! Stout Vogel Taylor Walker

Noes. Atkinson Fulton Bruce Hamlin Buchanan Hirat Buckland, W. F. Hobbs Conolly Lake Me Arthur Rolleston Montgomery Trimble Richardson, G. F. Wilson (teller) (teller)

PAIRS FOR (22). Macandrew O'Connor Ballance Joyce Harper Locke Menteath Stewart Steward Pratt Cowan Brown Garrick Allwright Hursthouae Wi Pere Bradshaw Grace Dargaville Pearson Kerr Coster

Against Johnston Ejrron Moss Wakefield Peacock Moat Pyke Scobie McKenzie Russell Ormond Grey Hislop Thomson, J.W. Fisher. Bryce Buckland, J.C. Mitchelson Whyte Dodson Fergus Beebham Hurst