House of Representatives. Wellington, July 16.

Te Aroha News, Volume III, Issue 112, 25 July 1885, Page 3

House of Representatives. Wellington, J uly 16.

Notices of Questions. Amongst the questions of which notices wero given today are tho following :— Whether it is a fact that travelling agents for the New Zealand Insurance Company are provided with free passes on Government railways, and if so, what amount is credited to the Railway Department for such passes? (Mr Allwriqht.)' Whether the Government, at the close of each session, will cause copies of statutes of that session to be furnished to each public library in the colony? (Sir George Grey.) Whether the Government will, when considering the question of endowments for Wellington Harbour Board, also consider the granting of endowments to Lyttelton Harbour Board ? (Mr Allwriqiit.)

Wellington Streets. The adjourned debate on Mr Fisher's motion to have placed on the Estimates the sum of £2,000 for the purpose ,of putting the Thorndon (Wellington) reclaimed land streets into such condition as to render them safe for public traffic, was resumed by Mr Fitziierbert. He 'complained that Wellington city had been robbed of a grand estate. Mr Macancrew denied there had been any hardship in the matter. He said the land had been reclaimed by the colony at a cost of £89,000, and that the grand estate spoken of by the last speaker had only been sea, Mr Buchanan said that when the reclaimod land was sold a promise was made by the Government that on the reclaimed land streets should be formed. Dr. Newman said this was not a question of endowment, but of light and wrong. Wellington City Council had been debarred from suing by tho advice of Mr Stout (who was not then a mcmbor of the Ministry), who advised that they must be nonsuited. He denied that the petition had received fair consideration. Messrs O'Callagiian, Thompson, and Lanck argued that the members of the Public Potitions Committee had considered the matter fully with The view of arriving at a fair conclusion, and they had reported j adversely against the claim. Mr Fisher, in reply, said that the rents derivable from endowments of Dunedin Auckland, and Wellington respectively, were: Dunedin, £11,528: Auckland, £8,339; Wellington, £3,872. The revenues of these cities wero Dunedin, £66,000 ; Auckland, £54,000 ;. Wellington, £38,000. It was in consequence of Dunedin and Auckland being so largely endowed that they wero enabled to carry out those works of beautifi cation to which hon. members had referred. On a division the motion was lost, the voting being : Ayes, 11 ; noes, 35. I

Employment of Females Act. Mr Bradshaw moved that the report of the Committee on the Employment of Females and Others Act 18S1 Amendment Bill be agreed to by the House. Mr Levestam said that he feared the measure had been passed hurriedly, and that restrictions had been placed on trade by mean 9 of not allowing boys to work on Saturday afternoons. He pointsd out that young women employed in the Kaiapoi Woollen Factory would lose half-a-day's pay every week, and suggested that where disabled vessels came into port on Saturday afternoons, lads should bo allowed to work at their repair. He moved that the bill be recommitted, with a view to further amendment. The Minister for Works said that representations had been made to him that in tho Government railway workshops it was desirable that hours of labour should be eight and a-half hours a day for five days per week, in order to enable employees to get a half-holiday on Saturday. This was the present rule, but the bill stopped that, and would canee a great deal of inconvenience. He therefore hoped an alteration would be made before the measure became law. The Premier said it might be as well to provide, in case of emergency, that the U.M. should have power to allow young persons to work overtime. That was the case in Victoria. Mr Holmes thought that when employees so desired they should bo allowed to remain during luncheon time under shelter of the work-room, at the same time making the penalty a severe one if their employers allowed them to work. The Premier said that as to having use of the work-room he could not consent to that idea. It had been condemned everywhere. It was the employers' place to provide a proper dining-room for the employees. Mr Fergus deprecated the continued tinkering with the labour laws of the country. He had to-day seen a telegram from the manager of the Mosgiel Woollen Factory, in which he distinctly stated that if this iniquitious bill became law, he would have to immediately discharge all the young people under eighteen years of age. He supported the recommittal of the measure with a view to having the hours of labour, except on Saturday, extended to S£. Mr Hirst hoped. Clause 3 would be recommitted with a view to making "eight hours" "eights hours and a half." He j thought the right way to legislate would be to limit the number of hours per week in which people should work, ond not the number of hours per day. Mr Connolly objected to any attempt to extend the hours, while Mr T. Thompson strongly supported tbe re-committal with the view of continuing the system which had been introduced by the employees themselves, j Mr Mackenzie strongly advocated the ve- ' committal of the bill with the view to altering Clause 3, and said he regretted that Mr Levestam had not moved to have the bill j recommitted for six months. On the question that the Committee's re- ( port bo adopted, the voting was : Ayes, 75; noes, 43. Mr Tole thereupon moved, " For the purpose of considering clause 3," which was agreed to on the voice. The question, "That the bill be committed for the purpose of considering clause 3," was agreed to. i On the bill being recommitted, Mr Levestam moved, "That in place of eight hours per day, 48 hours per week be substituted," lout was prevailed on to withdraw this in favour of an amendment by Mr Fitzherberfc for inserting the word " half " after the word "eight," and providing that no young person may be employed for more than 48 hours in any one week. This was agreed to. Mr Fitzherbert moved the addition of the following ivords, "provided always that any R.M. or inspector in any district may in any case of emergency allow young persons to work overtime," which was car ried on division by 35 to 25. Mr Ross wanted to add that it should not be compulsory for any young person to work such overtime, but this was negatived on the voices. , Mr Soojbie Mackenzie nexfc moved the excision from the same clause of the; words, " without loss of wages." The clause

would read a8 well, and the improper and mischievous element would be excised. The amendment met with scant support, and its mover did not call for division. After further disoussion, the bill was reported with amendments and passed.

Poisons Bill. In moving the second reading of his Poisons Bill, Mr Hatch mentioned tbat in Committee he intended moving to have " Bough on Rats" made a poison under the first schedule of the Act. The second reading passed, and the committal was fixed for Thursday week.

School Committees Election. On the motion that the Speaker do leave the chair in order that the House may go into Committee on the School Committees Election Bill, Mr W. F. Buokland moved, "That the measure do not go into Committee." It was only brought forward by the enemies of the Education Act, and with the view of testing Iho House, he asked the House to say that the bill should be com mitted three months hence. He repeated that those supporting the bill wished to destroy the secular system of education. Mr Hurstiiousk absolutely denied that the bill was introduced by the enemies of the Act. It seemed to him to be absolutely childish to refuse to amend glaring errors in the Education Act because there was a diversity of opinion whether or not the Bible should be read in schools. The Premier said that the bill had been introduced by the enemies of the education system. It was proposed by a member who was a denominationalißt, and supported by an hon. gentleman asking for sectarianism and not State education at all. There were two classes alone — those who wished to see the system destroyed, and those who wished to introduce the Bible in schools. (Mr Hursthouse : No). Well, perhaps there were some supporters who wanted to alter the mode of election of school committees. He had no objection to altering the cumulative system to three votes, but Major Steward would accept no compromise, but wanted to use the matter as a lever to destroy the system. Mr Turnbull asserted that the Premier had forgotten his position in order to ascribe to members of the House the sinister design of destroying the education system. Ila affirmed that no one had done so much to establish Bible roading in schools as the Premior himself. On the question that the House go into Committee, the voting was : Ayes, 36 ; noes, 15.

Advertising Sweepstakes, The Gaming and Lotteries Act (Mr Hobbs) was committed. Major Steward moved a new clause, that no application to use the totalisatoi* be granted except to the principal racing clubs, or on the recommendation of such club. The House divided on the motion that the Chairman leave the chair : Ayes, 14 ; noes, stf. Major Steward then withdrew his amendment, and the bill was reported and read a thhd time and passed.

In Committee. The School Committees Election Bill was then considered in Committee. Mr W. I). Stewart moved a new clause, to the effect that onus of proof of nonattendanco of children rest with parents or guardians instead of committees, as at present. This was added on division. Mr Stewaut again moved that the minimum time that a child attond school shall be 30 days in each quarter of tho school term. Carried. Mr Stewart moved that the amendment in the bill be considered to-morrow.

Counties Act Amendment. After the supper adjournment, the adjourned debate on the second reading of the Counties Act Amendment Bill was resumed. There was a bare quorum of members present. Mr Peacock thought that the constitution of district boards was not likely to be unsatisfactory. The principal function of this body would be to distribute funds, thus taking a disagroeable duty out of the hands of the Government. He asked what would be the position of Auckland with its rich endowments from Mr Costley and others. He was somewhat disappointed with the bill, and thought the present system, with all its ovils, better than it. Dr. Newman said thatunfortunately pauperism existed to a large extent in New Zealand. The poor and sick drifted from the cold South to Auckland and Hawke's Bay, and special provision should be made for those places. He pointed out that New Zealand, was undeniably the healthiest place in the world, and the result was that invalids came out in shoals. Under the present bill they would become a burden on the colony. They should guard against aiding those who would not aid themselves. Mr Richardson (Mataura) said that last year the Government contributed towards hospitals £54,000, and to charitable aid £34,600, while the public contributed towards hospitals £9,500, and towards charitable aid £10,800. On the 10s subsidy, Government would have to pay towards hospitals £29,000 and to charitable aid £0,000, leaving the public to find £5,900 for hospitals and £13,000 for charitable institutions. Seeing that under this bill the Government would save £70,000 or £80,000, ho suggested that for the first year they might contribute £ for £ on the total cost of hospitals and charitable institutions throughout the colony, He thought the Government were deserving of great praise for their measure. Mr Gore went into figures to show that if the bill became law, Dunedin would lose £3,720 per annum, while the adjoining boroughs, with a total population of about the same as Dunedin, would become gainers to the amount of £300. He believed that when the Act came into force voluntary subscriptions would fall off, and increased expense consequent would devolve on local bodies. Though Dunedin would have to contribute one-fourth of charitable aid in Otago, it would have only one voice on the board. He felt bound to vote against going into Committee. Mr Guinness supported the bill. In the past towns had not contributed their fair share towards the maintenance of charitable aid to hospitals. Mr White denied that country districts had contributed more towards charitable aid than towns. He thoroughly disapproved of the measure. Mr BnowN recognised in the bill an attempt to make all portions of the colony contribute an equal share towards the hospitals and charitable institutions. His district had subscribed liberally towards local hospital. Mr Buchanan gave the Government credit for an attempt to bring down a good measure. He did not agree with all its provisions, but believed it could be amended in committee so as to be a considerable improvement on anything of the kind the colony had had for some time. He thought districts were too large. Mr Hurst said the principle of the bill I Beemed to be to shift certain responsibilities off the shoulders of the Government on ito local bodies, and he predicted for it a

complete failure. Disguise it as they might, the bill was but a poor rate. Mr Levestam would support the second reading, but hoped that in Committee alterations would be made as to constitution and meetings of district boards. Mr Reege, while recognising^ the bill^ as a step in the right direction, did not think the institutions affected were treated in a proper manner by the Government. They should be treated in the same manner as educational institutions, viz,, by endowment. Mr Hatch" said that the people in lnvercargillhad contributed largely by voluntary subscription towards the maintenance of charitable institutions. Throughout Southland, Hospital Sunday was generally observed. He hailed the measure with satisfaction, and should support the second reading. At 11.50 Mr Menteath moved the adjournment of the debate, but The Pbemiek asked him to allow the discussion to be continued for three-quarters of an hour. Mr Menteath then withdrew his motion. Mr Pyke pointed out that the amount of subsidies to be granted could not be amended in Committee. He would make ', this proposition to the Government— that they should adjourn the debate to enable their friends to see what proposal they could make to put their bills into proper shape. Towns would be suddenly called on to make a threepenny rate if this bill were adopted. He agreed with the proposal that all parts of the community should con tribute alike. He believed that many of the sick and maimed had drifted from the town into the country. In Otago, Benevolent Institution had in the past got £ for £, but its subsidy would now only be 10s for the £, and the result would bo the closing of the doors of that place- The Otago Board would consist of 20 mayors, 10 chairmen of county councils, and 10 Government nominees. Forty men would thus be called together merely to dole out charitable aid. That seemed to him to be a bit of a faree c He could have understood it if they were entrusted with anything like local government functions. He stated his intention in Committee of endeavouring to secure a central Otago district. He recognised that under this measure voluntary subscription would cease. It was as good a measure as that introduced in 1879 by Mr Stevens. The Premier claimed that the bill was one step towards decentralisation, and said Mr Pyke had forgotten entirely the provisions for incorporation of Local Committees in the bill. The people who had rejected the consolidated fund a few nights ago, were now going to vote for it. He agreed with Mr Pyke that the germs of local government were in the bill, and said he was thinking of that when he drew it. He thought education districts might be made to fit for other purposes. The Government would receive suggestions from every side of the House, and in Committee would say what concessions they would be prepared to make. Mr Joyce said the measure was a bold attempt in the right direction, and that latent charitable people were never appealed to in large towns. At 12.15 Mr Fergus moved the adjournment of the debate till the following day. Wellington, July 17

Replies to Question. In answer to questions, Ministers stated that the Government were fully alive to the importance of the Bluff as a port of call. As to tendering ocean steamers off the Bluff in order to expedite the delivery of mails throughout the colony, they had no power to interfere with the existing contract. The matter, however, would be thought of. There are 600 or 700 public libraries in the colony, and the Government did not consider they would be justified in going to the cost of £SOO or £900 to furnish each library with a copy of the statutes passed each session.

Bills Passed. The Armed Constabulary Act Amendment»and School Committees Election Bill were (Reported and passed.

Employment of Females Act. Mr Levestam moved the Employment of Females and Others Act ISSI' Amendment No. 2 Bill, explaining that it entitled fruit and fish preservers to employ their employees overtime not exceeding four days per week, and also rendering it optional that Saturday should be a half-holiday. The second reading passed without discussion. The second reading of the Eight Hours Bill was postponed.

; Bible In Schools. Mr Stewart moved the second reading of the Bible-reading in Schools Bill in a vigorous speech, the tenor of which was that if the opposition to the "Rible instruction continued, it would result in the destruction of the educationgsystem. Mr.TuRNBULL followed in a similar strain. The Premier opposed the bill, saying that moral teaching was given in every school in the colony. If local government was allowed in religious matters, it would lead to the establishment of a State church. He did not object to the reading of the Bible if the objectionable matter were eliminated. He spoke eloquently in favour of secular education, freed from the evils of religions. They had a Catholic inspector of schools in Auckland, and the teachers in that province wore equal in proportion to Protestants. They had also Catholic teachers in Westland and Canterbury and Otago, and would the House ask them to read the Bible against their consciences £ What religious instruction would mean would be hypocrisy. If they made the system for a section, he would sooner see it burst up altogether. He moved that the bill be moved that day six months. Mr Fulton supported the second reading of the bill. Mr Montgomery opposed the bill, but advocated that it could be arranged, as was done in Canterbury, that religious instruction should be given before secular instruction commenced. Mr Ma can drew said that sooner than have no Bible read he would have the Douay Bible. The banishment of the Bible was the greatest blot on the education system. It was the greatest tyranny ever imposed. On this grand old Book was based our civil and religious liberty, and he sometimes thought now that the curse of God was on this community. He had rather 11,000 times go in for denominationalism that continue the present system, and after what had taken place in the House that afternoon, he thought it was the flag he would fight under in the future. Mr T. Thompson said all who had argued in favour of the bill were acting on a false issue. He contended there was plenty of opportunity of giving Bible instruction, but he thought the real issue was endeavouring to re-introduce the denominational system. He said the denominational system had been unpopular in Auckland. Mr Bruob supported the bill principally on the principle that the majority should rule. He denied that Bibtareading would let in the thin end of the wedge in favour of denominatienalism, and denied that, as said, denominationalism would not work in , this colony,

Mr Levbstam, \fras 'epeakiiig agaiii&t the billatthVs.3oad,jourhment. , }

, Evening Sittings. : ' On resuming at 7.40, Mr Levestam continued his remarks. - > > - k t Mr BevAn opposed the bill.; He had been brought up in a school inlwhich-the Bible was read, and look'ingionutjui .the light of olden experience^ cohsidere'duit so much jargon. He believed in a brigh^and glorious religion freed 4 from' the' superstitions of the past. He believed' in the' Bible, but thought portions of it might be eliminated. He would like to see a division in a full House, m that they would be able to proclaim once and for all to the New Zealand people that Bible-reading in schools ■ would not be tolerated by its representatives. Mr Hatch spoke against the bill, apd offered to read the first chapter of Genesis to the hon. gentleman who introduced the bill. Sir Geobge Gkey said there was an organised desire throughout the world to 'put an end to Christianity, and not only j that, but to deny the very existence of a God. He quoted from a paper published; in Dunedin a paragraph asserting that there was no God, or if there was, the world would not have been so badly made. This was understood to be an original remark instead of being a familiar quotation from Lucretius. Throughout the whole world idolatrous customs had existed, and as soon as they were abolished, people forgot that the Bible had done it all. If they abandoned the intention to divide the laws, they were compelled to have recourse to the Havean law of tyranny and oppression. It must end in misery and degradation to a nation. Still, holding these views, he did not believe in Bible-reading in schools, and laid down the principle that preceding secular instruction with religious instruction must have a bad effect. The duty was entirely parental. He spoke eloquently of the wonderful results of our present system of education, the solidnesa of its foundation being much better than he himself enjoyed. Mr Hakuenk said he was filled with shame while listening to the words that were spoken in this House. He thought Maoris were affected deeply by this matter, especially in the native schools. He intended to vote for the bill, and if it was thrown out he hoped some such measure would be brought in as would affect native schools. At all events, in the district he came from, the Maoris had expressed an opinion in favour of Bible-reading in schools. They felt no good could come to them from any other source. The Maoris had not to thank this Parliament for the good things that had come to them, for all the benefits they had derived had come from the Scriptures. He did not wish that any false doctrines should be encouraged, but only the orthodox teaching. The Maoris had started the teaching of the Catechism in their schools on their own authority. He drew no distinction between the churches, and said it was only the Bible in his eyes. Mr Stewart, in r9ply, accused the Premier of treating the matter with levity on onehand, andraising false issues ontheother. He denied that a State church had anything to do with the reading of the Bible in schools. The religion of the Premier was simply that of agnosticism, and the religion he wanted taught was purely of a negative character. (Mr Stout : "No.") He only wanted Bible-reading made permissive, and not compulsory. He accused Mr Stout of wanting a monopoly of all the knowledge, and said in fact he would "boss" all creation if he had the opportunity. Mr W. F. Buckland said that throughout the country districts of Auckland many Cathoi i children attended State schools, and if the bill were carried it would be a direct iusult to the parents of those children. Mr Pratt delivered his maiden speech, pointing out that if Bible-reading in schools were introduced it would place many of the schoolmasters in embarrassing positions. Besides, the religion of the children of the various denominations could not be respected if the bill were adopted. Mr Smith said that if the bill passed, the present excellent system would be broken up. Moreover, at elections of school committees, there would be immense struggles and anti-supporters of Bible-reading in school parties. The original question, " That the bill be now read," was then put with the following result : _Ayes, 18 ; noes, 50. The division list was as follows :— Ayes, IS : Messrs Atkinson, Brown, Bruce, Cowan, Hakuene, Ivess, Lance, Larnach, Macandrew, McKenzie, Pyke, Ross, W. J. Steward, W. D. Stewart, Sutter, Te Ao, Turnbull. Noes, 50 : Messrs Ballance, Barron, Bevan, Bryce, Buchanan, J. C. Buckland, W. F. Buckland, Cadman, Conolly, Dodson, Duncan, Fergus, Fitzherbert, Fraser, Gore, Grey, Guinness, Hamlin, Hatch, H. Hirst, Hobbs, W. J. Hurst, Johnston, Joyce, Kerr, Lake, Levestam, Locke, McArthur, M. J. S. Mackenzie, Monteith, Mitchelson, Moat, Montgomery, O'Callaghan, Ormond, Peacock, Pere, Pratt, Recce, E. Richardson, Rolleston, Smith, Stout, T. Thompson, J. W. Thomson, Tole, Trimble, Walker, J. B. Whyte. Pairs— Ayes: Fulton and Harper. Noes; Moss and Newman. Mr Stout's amendment, "That the bill be read this day six months," was carried on the voices.

Hospital and Charitable Aid. The debate on the Hospital and Charitable Aid Bill was resumed by Mr Fergus, who said that in common with the majority of the members of this House, and certainly the majority of the people in the colony, he gave the Government great credit for endeavouring to tackle this moat difficult subject. He quoted statistics to show that where the people were willing to assist themselves the Government were less willing to assist them. In Auckland each head of the community — man, woman, and child — received at the rate of 3s per head. In Hawke's Bay the late was 6s sd ; Taranaki, 2s 5d ; Wellington, 3s Id ; Nelson, 5s Id ; Marlborough, 2a 8d ; Westland, 6s 9d ; Canterbury, 3s 9d ; Otago and Southland, Is lOd. Thus, with the exception of Otago, all the larger portions of the colony had been shirking their duty, and turning that duty upon the colonial funds. Mr Montgomery said that the bill gave evidence that the Government had grappled with a difficult subject, which other Governments had not been able to do. The proposal meant easing the Treasury to the extent of £70,000,andfresh taxation on theratepayers. It would be a good thing for the Treasury, but not such a pleasant thing for districts. It was necessary to get rid of the necessity of coming to Wellington to apply to the Colonial Secretary and Colonial Treasurer. Local bodies should know what they would receive as a matter -of right and law. On resuming after supper adjournment, Mr Cowan continued the debate, supporting the bill because it was in the direction of decentralisation and local government; The Colonial Treasurer said in a matter of this kind it was impossible Government could, 'beforevthe House met, ,be aware of the opinions held in the various parts of the colony, but now; a great many of the suggestions had been, taken into consideration by, the , Government with the view, of peeing how far? these- sug* geationi could be met. That view of. thg

Hon. member's who had spoken, and those of the Government, were very much in accord. The speaker referred to the concessions which had been made in the > way^of subsidy, which were to the effect that Government were willing to g^J* r *: A * to the proposal that District Boards should only be appointed for two years, he pointed out that responsible persons would not be found to act unless the arrangement was to be of a permanent nature. With regard to the requisition of local authorities, they were agreeable to the requisition being not on the basis of population, but on the basis of property (Hear. ) Then in regard to the question of the Colonial Treasurer requiring to be satisfied that the money was required for the maintenance of institution, the Government would abandon that provision for five years, and aft.r five years they would alter lbs character, and instead of saying that the Colonial Treasurer should require to be convinced that the institution required the money, would put it in the form that the Colonial Treasurer might move that contribution was necessary, they would not object to the power of the Government to pat nominees in Government Boards being removed. As to the representation of local bodies on the board of trustees, it was proposed to provide for it in this way : If not more than two local charities subscribed to the funds of a separate institution, they should be at liberty each to appoint a trustee additional to the number already mentioned i» the bill to represent them on the board of trustees ; and if there are more than two local institutions providing funds to one separate institution, the total number of all those local bodies shall arrange amongst themselves as to the appointment of the two trustees who shall represent them on the board. It was for the Committee to con - sider whether a better division of boundaries could be made. He thought the necessity of raising money by special rate might almost be dispensed with. Major Atkinson said that many objections he was going to raise had been removed. So far as he was concerned, the bill might be rend a second time to-night. The motion for second reading was carried on the voices, and the House rose at 12 p.m. Wellington, July 18. In the House this afternoon, notices of motion were given as follows:— For a return showing what number of days the Government steamer Hinemoa has been employed during the year ending March 31st (Mr Guinness). For a return showing the amounts received during the years ISB2, 18S3, and 1884 respectively, by various local bodies from General Government (Mr Holmes). JB'or return setting forth the area and estimated value of the Education Reserves for primary and secondary education in each county and each district (Mr Samuels).

Notices of Questions. Among the notices of questions given were the following :— To ask the Govern menfc what steps have been taken to remedy the defects in the building of the Seacliffe Asylum (Mr Tubnbull). If the Government will extend the White Cliffa branch railway in the direction of Lake Coleridge so as to facilitate settlement in that district to enable the anthracite and other coals that abound in that locality being got to market (Mr McMillan). If it is in the contemplation of the Government to instruct the Kegistrar-General to publish annual statistics of the colony about a date as to be of more practical use than they have been in the past. Also, if the Government would instruct the Registrar-General to take the Victorian Year Book as a model of convenient size and method, and endeavour, as far as possible, to supply a similar year book for this colony (Mr Walkee). j

'Frisco Mail Service. The Colonial Treasurer moved that the House would on Tuesday next resolve into committee of the whole to consider the renewal of the 'Frisco mail contract. Mr Rollestost desired to know whether before going into committee the hon. member would supply the House with a return showing the monthly cost of the direct steam service on the year ending _May 31st last, and also the cost of the 'Frisco mail service for the same period, showing the contributions and postages received. If it was impossible, they should have before them a statement showing the result of the contract entered into for the direct steam service last year. A^o similar information concerning the 'Frisco service. Sir Julius Vogeo said as the time was so short he would alter his motion from Tuesday till this day week, undertaking to Bupply the information in the meantime. The motion was then agreed to.

Land Bill. Mr Ballakce, in moving the second read ing of the Land Bill, said it was a consoli dating measure. The Government had not gone in for a wholesale alteration of the law. He felt confident if they had done so it would have been impossible to pass the measure this session. He gave a history of recent land legislation and asserted that the best kind ' of settlement was that which enabled the State to hold control over land, and allowed settlers to retain it as long as they conformed with the conditions. Fie favoured both freehold and perpetual leasing, experiments of the latter having been attended with a considerable amount of success. He objected to binding ourselves to one system, and thought that both might flourish side by side if we gave them a fair chance. He advocated small holdings for labouring men adjacent to large cities. If suitable areas were purchased and leased in small areas at a rental not exceeding 5 per cent., it would do much to modify depression. He defended the special settlement proposal, aa there were no middlemen in the By&tem, and each, settler was thrown on his own responsibility. He was in favour of the ballot biing used instead of auctions where purchasers of land were hedged about with settlement conditions. The tender system waaaleo objectionable. With regard to small runs, provision was made for their cutting up and leasing. Any attempt to alienate land for pastoral purposes would be very unfortunate. There was a large quantity of land in this island which must be dis posed of in small pastoral runs. It would be a mistake to make a number of small runß in Otago and Canterbury without fixity of tenure. He thought the time had come when reserves should be administered on a better principle, and quoted instances of maladministration of education reserves. If any progresß was to be mad 9 in the future, the land Bhould carry more people than at present, and these Boards ehould be made a responBible body. The Commissioners were irresponsible, and did not give satisfaction. The petitions that had been received regarding amendments of the Land Act contained many valuable suggestions Mr Rolleston gave Mr Ballance credit for an earnest desire to do the best he could for the settlement of the waste lands of the Crown. Administration of lands must be regarded from three points— (l) Settlement of the people upon lands ; (2) with regard to revenue ; and (3) with regard to means of communication and roading, if he might make use of a word, recently coined in the

ountry. He spoke in high praise of the small-run system, and said they should place tenants' right on them, as towards the end of their term it was customary on^ the part of tenants to do as little as possible. He spoke of middlemen being the bane of settlement. Regarding agricultural settlei inent, he agreed largely with Mr Balllance. The effect of the deferred payment system •was that the capitalist came and aggregated small lots. He believed in the system of perpetual leasing in respect to all endowments. It was gratifying to him to find that the public were recognising the merits of the perpetual leasing system. If the disposition ot land in the future was to be as it was in the past, it would be detrimental at once to the interosts of men of property, and also of the working claes. He believed the homestead system might be more, largely availed of in the future than in the past, and he was aware of parts in Auckland where it had worked well j but it had its diawbacks, and he thought that eventually perpetual J leasing would take its place. He also supported thedirect cash system, on the ground that Crown lands should produce a certain amount of revenue from this source. Referring to the special settlement proposals, he mentioned that in his (Mr Rolleston's) bill there was a clause abolishing special settlements in consequence of the speculative element it introduced, and he did not think that Mr Ballance's bill would do away with middlemen. He urged that the experiment for special settlement should be confined to 100,000 acres. Mr Montgomery supported the bill, but thought something should be done to cheapen land ; and he even went so far as to say if people were placed on land at the mere cost of survey it would be best for the colony. If the colony was to become strong in numbers and resources they must have a great many more people in the colony to settle on the lands. He thought that if hundreds of thousands more were induced to come here, New Zealand would become one of the greatest nations in the world. Mr Beetham denied that the special settlement system was best for the colony. If the House would only face the question and vote the money necessary to make road lines and surveys to extend through the whole of New Zealand, they would be able, through the Waste Lands Board 3, to settle the lands as entirely and expeditiously as under the special settlement system. He was prepared to give his unqualified support to the leasehold system as being the best. He disapproved of the ballot sy3tem, but supported the Minister for Lands in saying that endowments should be dealt with subject [to the waste lands laws of the Crown. Mr Hurst said that Mr Montgomery had addressed himself to the kernal of theland question. He found fault with the continual uncertainty of the land laws, which prevented people from selling. They were getting 20 or 40 years ahead of the Public Works policy by stopping the system of immigration, which was calculated to do great injury to the colony. He objected to the perpetual leasing system, as it prevented immigration. People with limited means would not come out here if they were imbued with the idea that the best land could only be obtained on lease. This was not the time to work out theories. They should get the people out, and then through the Uustoms and other moans make them pay the rent. Mr Hobbs followed in the same strain,' and thought the homestead system should be encouraged and spread over the whole colony. Mr Kerr advocated the survey and lay-ing-off of roads before attempting to settle land. Mr Moat echoed Mr Kerrs remarks, and said the want of surveys had driven many intending settlers out of Auckland. He spoke in favour of the good work done by the homestead system. He agreed with the others speakers that the great charm in inducing many immigrants to come to this colony was the idea that they would obtain a freehold, and advocated the immediate resumption of nominated immigration. At the evening sitting the debate was continued by Mr Ivess, who said the bill showed that the Government were sincere in their desire to place a satisfactory land law on the Statute Book of the country. The colony could never become great unless it had liberal land laws. Mr Bruce strongly objected to those clauses which led to the establishment of a State tenantry. This was a new departure in the Land Bill. Mr nußSTiiousE advocated the system of perpetual leasehold, and said that in the Nelson administration of land laws, free selection before survey had not been altogether satisfactory. He intended to support the bill, Mr Scobie Mackenzie advocated the continuance ©f the freehold tenure system as best calculated to stimulate industries and settle the people permanently on the land. He observed a tendency on the part of the Government to foice the perpetual lease i 83 stem on an unwilling people. (No) The Premier hoped that the House would not neerativo the provision for perpetual leases in this bill. He agreed with the ' member for Goraldine that in placo of the words "perpetual leasing," they should substitute "conditional freehold." r ihe land question was a great question for the future, and it could not be settled by the freehold system. He^said if the House was going to object to the perpetual lease system, they should also object to the pastoral lease system. As to the argument of giving away land, he said they must look to the future. He hoped some lands would continue to be held by the State for many years, and strongly urged that deferred payment land should only be used for three years. He defended Mr MACKenzie's clause, saying it would not affect the production of wool one whit. The only result of it would be, instead of having the pastoral industry of Otago and Canterbury in the hands of a few people, they would have a great number of pastoral tenants. The measure was supported by Messrs Joyce, Duncan, Fisher (who, however, objected to the leasing system), and Smith. The latter intimated that in Committee he would move that in place of a nominative Waste Lands Committee the Committees should be elected. After supper Major Stewart epoke to a bare quorum. He said lands could now be acquired by the State at a very low price,and if the colony were in a position to take advantage of euch a circumstance and divide such purchased lands into small holdings, they would obtain in tfee way of rental from persons who would thrive upon them more than the interest on the money required to acquire these lands. Mr Pyxe said that in Committee he hoped to ameloriate the condition of the deferred payment settlers, to improve the condition of the perpetual leaseholders, and also that condition of pastoral tenants would be taken into consideration. All classes were dissatisfied with the present land laws of New Zealand. Mr Ballance, in reply, said it would cost half a million of money a y_ear to make the necessary roads now required, and asked what would it cost them if the number of eettlerß were increased.;

Tho second reading, was then carried on the voicesi

Stamps Act, The Premier having moved the second reading of the Stamps Act Amendment Bill, Mr Downie Stewart said the measuio would add 50 per cent, to the already heavy stamped duty, making it a burdensome tax . on those who were purchasers of land. The second reading was carried, the bill to be committed on Tuesday next.

Deceased Persons' Estates. The Premier next moved the seoond reading of the Deceased Persons Estates Duties Act Amendment Bill. Mr Stewart thought that the principle of retrospective legislation should be very carefully guarded and discountenanced. , M | The second reading was carried, the foul > to be committed on Tuesday.

Whitmoro Enabling Bill. Mr Ballance moved the further postponement of the Whitinore Enabling Bill till Tuesday.

Counties Amendment Bill. At midnight, the resumed debate on the Countieß Aot Amendment Bill was taken up. Mr Mo Arthur said he failed to discover any principle in the bill. Considerable want of knowledge had been Hhown in its preparation. It was said that j to contest an election for county chairman i would be more expensive than to contest a j seat for Parliament. Ho also thought the | system of electing auditors was vicious. Mr Guinness approved of the election of county chairmen, but thought the auditors should be nominated by the Government. Colonel Trimble thought the election of the county chairmen by ratepayers was a mistake. Mr Richardson (Mataura) thought a better chairman would be elected by the Council than by the ratepayers, and objected to making auditors olective. Mr Rolleston hoped Mr Stout would make the position of town districts in reference to counties clear. Mr Walker thought there should be only one rating body. . , , Mr Lake was disappointed with the bill, arid disagreed with most of its provisions. Mr Moat objected to some of the details, but would support the second reading. I Mr Stout promised that when the bill j was in committee he would endeavour to ; have some of the suggestions carded out. The bill wa3 then read a second time, and the House rose at 1.30 a.m. Wellington, Julj 21

Hospital Districts. MrSbddou asked without notice -(a) will the Government cause maps to be made showing the Hospital districts proposed to be treated by the Hospital and Charitable Aid Bill now before the House ? (J) Will the Government adopt the same course as that adopted by Hon. J. Hall in regard to the fixing of the boundaries of the several electorates, viz., by asking opinions, and by giving every fair consideration to the individual, and the recommendations mrde by hon. members respecting electors in the several districts proposed to be created hospital districts. He urged on the Go vernment the absolute necessity of this being done, otherwise a very good bill would be in jeopardy. The Premier asked that notice should be | given of a question of so important a character. Ho did not wish to answer offhanded.

Railway Charges on Coal. Mr Peacock asked without notice whether it was the case that the charges for the carriage of coal on the railway were lower in Canterbury than in the other partß of the colony, and if so, why ? He explained that he asked the question in consequence of a letter written to an Auckland newspaper by Mr Vaile, railway agitator, in which he gave figures to show that the differential rates in Canterbury province were less than in Otago and Auckland. The Minister for Works said that Mr Vaile did not appear to understand the subject he was writing about. The figures used by him showing mileage on Canterbury lines were wholly inaccurate. Hence the extraordinary conclusion he had come to. Similar errors would be found in nearly every document that Mr Vaile had issued.

'Frisco Mail Contract. Mr Sutter gave notice to move an amendment on Sir Julius Vogel's 'Frisco mail service as follows : -" That the figures and words £3,000 be struck out with a view of inserting the following, viz., 'The Post-master-General will pay the contracting party at the following rates : Letters, 12a per lb j packets, Is per lb ; papers, 6d per lb.'"

Petitions. Mr W. F. Buckland presented two petitiors to-day from Auckland objecting to the alteration of Licensing Act. Sir George Grey presented a lengthy petition praying that the roll of the colony be the roll for all elections connected with the Licensing Act. Mr Peacock presented a petition from P. Long, a licensee in Arch Hill Licensing District, regarding the arbitrary conduct of a Licensing Committee in threatening to close all hotels in the district.

Notice of Question. Mr Cadman gavo notice to ask the Minister of Works if it is true that a private contract has been let in Auckland to repair the Coromandel Police Station, and if bo, why have the local builders been overlooked?

Reducing the Number of Legislators. Mr Moss asked leave to move his resolution in Committee on the Charitable Aid Bill. The Speaker, however, overruled this as irregular, whereupon Mr Moss announced it to be his intension to introduce hie motion on another opportunity. When the hon. gentleman took his seat, he was loudly applauded, and it is apparent that a considerable number of membera are favourably disposed to his proposal. The following are the resolutions :— (1) That retrenchments the public expenditureis imperative. 2. That to effect this it is desirable (a) to reduce materially the number of members in both Houses of the Legislature, with a corresponding reduction in the number of Ministers and in the departmental expenditure of the colony ; (b) to devise a system of local government simple, economical, and self-dependent, capable of relieving the General Assembly of all local work, and rendering the present large number of members unnecessary. Mr Q. F Richardson gave notice to ask the Minister for Works if the Government will make a substantial reduction in the railway freight charges within short distances of the chief cities, so as to induce the carriage of heavy goods by rail.

Stamps Act Amendment and Deceased Persons Bills. Several hours were spent in Committee this afternoon and evening over the Stamp Act Amendment and Deceased. Persons Estates Duties Act Amendment Bills. The House struck out of the latter measure its retrospective clause* the object of which

was to make perßonß making deeds of gift within the last two years pay a succession of duties. The most material alteration made in respeot to the Stamp Aot Amendment Bill was the addition of a clause moved by the Premier, providing that persons or companies acting as agents for effeohng insurances abroad are to pay a license fee of £200 a-year. j

Whitmore Enabling Bill. Mr Balmnob moved the second reading of the Whitmoro Enabling Bill. He said the offer was made to Sir G. S. Whitmore in consequence of an officer whom the Government had applied to in Canada refusing to accept the appointment. The appointment waß necessary in consequence of a competent head being required for the Volunteer force. Ho thought the Government could not have made a Better selection. Major Atkinson said if he thought the appointment was permanent he should i oppose, but he looked on it as an emeri geney, and deprecated altogether the idea that a permanent head of the forces was necessary. Mr Montgomery asked what were the terms of the appointment. Mr Ballanok said there was no particular time fixed. The appointment was not temporary, but the House could at any time refuse to vote the amount required for the office. Mr Hurst thought no particular necessity had been shown for making the appointment. It was not advisable to have a political Commander-in Chief, as he might exercise considerable influence in the House. Mr Seddon quoted the case of the Com-mander-in-Chief of the forces of Great Britain, who occupied a seat in the House of Lords, and contended that the appointment was not made for political reasons. Mr Fulton agreed with the second reading, as the Government were called upon to act in an emergency. He took exception, however, to the appointment of an officer who hod risen in the cdony, although^ he had nothing to say against the officer himself/. Mr Russell intended to support the bill. He contended that as it was 25 years since Sir G. S. Whitmore had left the Imperial army, he could not possibly be a scientific soldier, which at the present time was absolutely necessary in military warfare. Sir George Grey would offer no opposition to the bill, but he would endeavour to i delay its passage till the House had determined what its military expenditure should be. Mr Hamlin supported the bill on the ground that a permanent head of Volunteer forces of the colony was urgently required. He held that the appointment of a gentleman holding a seat in the Legislature would not operate injuriously on members of the House holding military commissions. Mr Ballance said if they were to keep up their fortifications, a standing force of at least 500 men would be necessary for the colony. It was intended to utilise the Armed Constabulary for this purpose as much as possible. The second reading was carried on the voices.

Industrial Sobools Bill. The amendment was negatived, and the House went into committee on the bill, which passed with verbal amendments.

Bills Forwarded. The House went into committee on the West Coast Settlement Act Amendment Bill, which passed with some slight amend ments. The Industrial Schools Act Amendment Bill was reported, read a third time, and passed. The West Coast Settlement Reserves Act Amendment Bill was read a third time, and passed. . The House rose at twenty minutes past twelve.