PARLIAMENT. House of Representatives.

Te Aroha News, Volume III, Issue 110, 11 July 1885, Page 3

PARLIAME NT. House of Representatives.

Wellington, July 1 In resuming tbe debate on the want-of-confidence motion this afternoon, Mr Mac kenzib (Mt. Ida) said that he should endeavour to keep as closely as possible to the Financial Statement, which disclosed the whole policy of the Government. It seemed absurd to say that the Government were improperly or illegally occupying the Ministerial benches, seeing they got there and remained by the votes of the majority of the House. In the Statement were two main points— additional taxation to be levied to the extent of £260,000, and asking for a loan of £1,000,000 for next year. Dealing with the latter point first, they had been asked not to grant that loan, and, for his own part, he hoped the House would not take that advice. He did not object to an Opposition boldly coming forward and challenging the rights of a Ministry to retain their seats, but deprecated the attitude being assumed towards the present Government of allowing them to retain their seats, and hampering their finances by preventing them from getting means to carry out necessary works. As to the re-imposition of the Property Tax to the extent of £150,000, he did not egard that as new taxation at all, 8 he believed it was removed last year nder a misapprehension. Some very ight attack had been made on the defence expenditure of the Government, but it seemed to him that the expenditure rested on a very sound basis indeed. It rested on entirely the same basis as the arguments for the support of the police force. There was no difference between protecting the colony from an internal or an external foe, and it seemed to him that Government had shown very wise discretion in protecting the colony from external attack. So much for the question of supply. As regards the question of ways and means he must assume a different tone. To the best of his judgment, the Financial Statement was distinctly and mainly protective. Personally, he was a free trader by convictioi>, and by such attention from reading and otherwise as he had been able to bestow on the question in the House, free traders wtre consideied a pack of theoretical fools who took their opinions from books. If an out-and-out protectionist were seen walking in England, people looked at him with the same sort of curiosity as they would at a moa. (Laughter.) The member for Egmont had said if he were in England he would be a free trader, and if he were in America he would be a protectionist. (Major Atkinson : Hear, hear.) Why, he might just as well say if he were in China he would be a Chinaman ; if in South Africa, a Hottentot. He claimed that in levying Customs duties there was nothing inconsistent with being a free trader. Free trade was merely commercial freedom. Roads and bridges were not marketable commodities. Did any hon. gentleman ever see roads and bridges bought or sold ? Did any hon. member ever see in a market report that roads were loose or bridges tight? (An hon member : Yes). Then the hon. member must have been in the position of the bridge himself. (Laughter.) Roads and bridges, be submitted, were constructed for the benefit of the public, whether the public used them or not. What he objected to was the large increase in the tariff sought to be imposed. It was true that factories might become disorganised to an extent, and perhaps ruined, if not protected ; but it did not follow that if the tariff was greatly reduced that would be the result as to woollen manufacturers. He affirmed that if the tariff were greatly reduced, the result would be a benefit, both to the manufacturer and the consumer. The tariff was protectionist, and designedly so. How could they reconcile the statements that it was made for purposes of revenue and for fostering local industries? An industry could only be protected in one way, and that was by increasing tbe sale of local articles, and shutting out the im ported article. He condemned the Loan and Finance Powers Bill because tbe Government were not in a position to give assured finance. Local finance, to be successful, must be in .exact conformity with general finance. As a member of a local body over which he had presided, he affirmed that local bodies were in the elementary state. It would be an unwise condition to try and relieve themselves of their duties and impose them on the local bodies. The cottagers scheme had been called as beneficent as it was practicable. He called it as absurd as it was impracticable,and he hoped this scheme would be eliminated from the Statement. He did not approve of a great portion of tbe Government policy, and therefore he frankly said so. His principal objection to the Government was their leanings to protection. The principles embodied in the Financial Statement seemed to be crude and elementary, and not sufficiently worked out. It seemed as though the Government had called up all the abstract questions which had been agitating tbe colony for years past, and said, "Let us take a quarter of an hour and polish them off." The main consideration which occupied his mind was, how to keep the Government in and how to keep their policy out. He wished to keep them in on account of their administration, which had beeD good and vigorous up to the time of the production of their extraordinary Financial Statement. He consequently felt that it was not desirable for a change of Ministry, and after last year's experience he dreaded what the next move would be. So far as Sir George Grey's amendment went, he was going to vote against it, and would do his best to keep the Government in office, and if it should happen that in discussing any special measu re his vote should in some way or other contribute to -the downfall of the Government, he should regret it exceedingly, but would endeavour to console himself with the reflection that it was not he who left the Government, but they who left him. (Cheers.) Mr Hurst said that to show the unfortunate depression which now existed it required someone with the ability of the member for Napier (Mr Ormond) to picture the colony since 1870. He denied the statement of the hon. member for Mount Ida, that the administration of the present Ministry had been good and vigorous in the past, and read from the Treasurer's last financial Statement to show that his promises had not been fulfilled. As showing what was thought of the colony's present position by a former member oi the House who held a prominent position in it, he (Mr Hurst) read an extract from a letter he had received, in which it was stated by the writer that Sir Julius' Vogel's Financial Statement was the most shameful of its kind that had ever been presented to the House, and that if adopted it would have the effect of driving capital out of the polony. (Cries of '"Name.") The letter, as he had stated, was sent to him by a friend who formerly occupied a seat in the House, and as it was

a private communication, he did not feel justified in naming the writer. With that experience entering into the minds of the people of this colony, members required to be exceedingly careful of their aotion in this House. The native polioy was likely to oreate a Maori aristocracy with a lot of white slaves. The speaker next proceeded to critioise the I public works administration of the Government!, which, he said, had been exceedingly partial, faulty, and bad, and would result in an enormous loss to this country. On January Ist last there appeared in " The New Zealand Gazette " an order reducing all grain rates on the lines north of Oamaru to one shilling and sixpence per ton, and it was only under pressure of friends supporting the Government that similar reductiens were made elsewhere. The Minister for Works denied that the alteration was made under pressure. Mr Hurst continued : He was stating an unmitigated tact, which the "Gazette" showed. The result of the alteration of grain rates would mean a large loss in the revenue re turns, fie condemned the wasteful extravagance of holding the Exhibition i Wellington, and said, besides entailing a large loss on the Government, it would injure the traffic of tradesmen in the town. It would be nothing more than a large shop. The Government's administration in the past would not enable him with any degree of confidence to look forward to the future. He did not see that any good could come of discussing the question of free trade and protection. Whether members liked it or not, the necessity was imposed on them for raising the revenue. If the tariff were increased, as suggested, it would mean compelling bhe people to do with less, and would not result in the large increase that was anticipated. He entirely disagreed with the comprehensive local government proposals submitted, but hoped that the question of charitable aid would be placed on some 'souud basis. Recent appointments to the Legislative Council was one of the most humiliating of all the Government actions, and their defence had been most frivolous. Such harsh words as "bribes" and "rewards for actions" had been applied to these appointments. He would merely gay they were unjustifiedly improper. Then, in the Waste Lands Committee one of the ablest and best chairmen they had ever had, a gbntleman who had discharged his duties effectually and well, had been supplanted because he refused to accept for his services remuneration which he did not consider he was entitled to. Yet, on the Estimates of this year £100 was asked for this successor, who was said to bo educated up to his duties. He (the speaker) wanted to say nothing disrespectful of that successor, but it looked as though the words he saw in the newspaper that the Government were from beginning to end favouring their friends, utterly disregardful of the colony's welfare and interests, were justified. Mr Fisher severely criticised the Government proposals. He said that, like the majority of members, he did not desire to turn the Ministry out of office. He should, as far as possible, discuss the question ipart from party issue. That being so, he regretted the amendment that had been proposed, and should vote against it. He ilso regretted the importation of personalities and personal imputations, and trusted, iuringthe debate, not to hear further references of that sort. Instead of imposing further taxation on the people, the Government should have enieavoured, by every possible legitimate ueans, to reduce it or the Property Tax. [f the Treasurer believed what he said, nstead of re- imposing the tax he should lave expunged it altogether. The burden )f increasing the taxes was one thing, and •he burden of diminishing the revenue was mother. He warned the House that if ihey had not reached the extremity of their -esources they would very soon do so, and :hat this was not a time when they should seek to place further taxation on the colony. N"ew Zealand was the heaviest taxed depenlency of the British possessions, and r»e could hardly believe that when the Government were impelled to Further increase the taxation, they could have looked at the statistics. (Laughter and applause.) As to retrenchment, he believed that £100,000 could be saved in the sducational department, and that not by my interference with the present system. They ought not to spend a large amount of ;he resources of the country in what were really nurseries. The State ought not to 3e asked to provide education for children bill they were at least seven years of age. Applause.) The country was too ex iravagant in every way, and the Grovernment ought not to make the revenue fit the expenditure. Their first luty was to make the expenditure fit the revenue He pointed out that by statistics that extravagant expenditure had not induced population. What was wanted to help us to bear increased taxation was increased population— an agricultural and pastoral population. He paid a very high compliment to the Minister of Lands, whom he described as the best adminiatrator in the Government. He hoped that that gentleman (Mr Ballance) would continue ' his efforts in the direction of special settlements and opening up agricultural | areas in all directions He (the speaker) disownedany idea of speaking with theobject j of displacing in th© favour of another set of men, or of being a place-hunter. He was confident that the Local Finance Bill would not pass. It was of a cast iron nature, and not suitable to those parts of the colony j whose requirements were dissimilar, as a city member he said it was entirely un suited for towns. It was true it gave a subsidy of £1,500 to Wellington. But of this had to be taken, say £800, for maintenance of police force and city aid to charitable institutions. The speaker was here interrupted by the luncheon adjournment. On resuming at 7.30, Mr Fisher completed his address. He said when the country got into difficulties the duty of the Government was not to increase taxation in order to extricate it. When the last loan was about to be floated, the AgentGeneral cabled that if war broke out, neither the new loan nor temporary advances would be possible. In that case the enormous burdens of the country could not have been increased, and what was possible in the contingency stated was possible now. The Government could well meet the difficulty presented without extra taxation, if they only had the will. Mr Pyke was the next speaker. He did not propose for one moment, through the introduction of Sir George Grey's amendment, to divert the attention of members from the grave issue at stake, viz., the burden of increased taxation, but he thought it right to preface his remarkaby saying that he, for one, had confidence in the Government, and in their administration. (Cheers.) He said, without hesitation or mental reservation of any kind, that their administration had been most excellent. They would, however, have to take back their objectionable tariff, and re-model. Be referred to the evils that had resulted from stopping nominated immigration, but expressed a hope that free immigration would never be resumed, as it had been the means of deteriorating the population and intro-

duoing lazy; thriftless men and women. As to the Local Bodies'. Finance and Powers Bill, the House would have none of it, and even goldfields members for once would endeavour to be patriotio at the price of their constituents, (Laughter.) If the Government forced the tariff on the country, he ventured to predict that their fate would be very speedy and certain. Although they disclaimed being either free trade or protection, their tariff was distinctly protective from the initial letter down to the final period. He said that the agricultural industry was in such a condition that it oould not bear additional taxation. The tariff was the most injudicious ever devised in the colony. Had he beea sent for, he could have shown how to raise the additional revenue required without the increased taxation sought to be imposed. (Laughter.) In their revision of the taxation Ministers had not gone fully into the incidence of taxation, While complimenting them on their administration, as he was forced to do, he regretted that they had showed no legislative ability in the measures they had laid befoie the House. The tariff was objectionable in every item, and even the unfortunate taxpayer was persecuted after death, for there was a tax or 10 per cent, on grave-stones, (Laughter.) Where was the vaunted free breakfast table, which the Minister for Lands, when n offioe in 1878, sighed for. It was lost in he paroxysm of financial desperation. ( Renewed laughter. ) If the colony desired to emulate America in the direction of protection, they must have some tariff for the whole British Empire, as there was a tariff for the American Empire. He strongly advised Sir George Grey to withdraw his amendment, which if pressed would certainly be negatived, as only some half-dozen members would follow him into bhe lobby. Mr Moss, who came uoxt, said that there never was a Parliament in the colony in which parties were so divided as the present. There were many members, like himself, who were discontentsd, not with the Government, but with the policy they were pursuing. These members knew that if they turned out the Government, the same policy would be pursued by those who took their places. The colony was in great peril, and its resources were strained to the utmost. He proceeded to say that he had never known a Government who came down so boldh or completely with their policy. While admitting this, he hoped members would not shirk voting on the amendment. For if they did, and agreed to the proposal for going into Committoo of Supply, it would be an approval of the policy the Government had laid down. (No !). He regretted that the amendment had been propo?ed ; but after it was moved he felt that it was the duty of every member to say what he thought and to vote according to his conscience. If it was necessary to have new taxation, let them put additional taxation on property, and that would occasion such on uproar throughout the country that bhe ruinous expenditure so long sarried on would be peiemptorily 3topped. Seeing the difficulties the Government were in, they should have reduced ihe expenditure to some considerable exient. Ps it was, they plunged the country into difficulties, and then came down on the lelpless civil servants, and after dismissing i few of them, said this was the only •etrenchment thoy could effect. (Laughter), tie protested in the strongest terms against :he expenditure of £50,000 on immigration, seeing the abundance of labour that already vas in the colony. His leaning was n favour of protection, for he held that so ong as wejhad a home market to supply it ihould be encouraged in every way. As ;here was little to choose between the gentlemen on the Government benches and he Opposition, he preferred seeing the >resent occupants remain where they were >y bribes to local government bodies. A sruel wrong had been done the country in he abolition of provinces -a wrong of the vorst character— and for which, if they had he power, it would not be too much to mpeach persons who brought that wrong ibout. Dr. Newman expressed his gratification hat the discussion had taken a better shannel than it did on the previous evening, vhen there were anything but creditable ecriminations bandied about between Sir •Jeorge Grey and Mr Stout Surely they had >nocgh to do to consider the present diffi:ulties without diverting attention to the infortunate past. He thought the Governnent were honestly deserving of credit for -ho energetic way in which they had grappled vith the question of the defence of the ;olony. As to the native difficulty, he loped that the scare was dead and gone. Iq denied that because the natives chose to ;o with the Native Minister for a pleasure ;rip in a canoe, with a liberal supply of beer md tobacco, it showed a more amicable spirit on their part. He congratulated the Government on their endeavour to reform :he Civil Service, and on their efforts to settle the people on the lands ; but 3ondemned the Treasurer for not showing a greater financial ability in dealing with the burdens of the country. A mistake wub made in reducing the property tax, and he regretted that no steps had been taken to ensure a reciprocal tariff. He entered his emphatic protest against the reckless borrowing svhich had gone on for some years, and said that if the Estimates had been subnitted to the Pu die Accounts Committee, ihere would have been no necessity for inireated taxation. Personally he must jppose any further taxation. Mr W. F. Buckland said a crisis having vrrived, it behoved every member to give jxproßsion to his opinions on the proposals mbmitted by the Government. He recognised that the Canterbury members were the ruling power in this Parliament, and that when ihey could get what they wanted they would burl the Government out the same way as Lhey put them in. Sops had been given to members to secure their adhesion, and, in tact, the Government's whole policy was one >rand scheme to catch one or two votes, 3ut Ministers would find that members were not such fool& as the Government took ihem to be. The Premier seldom adduced solid arguments. He indulged in a sort of Iv quoque discussion, and in a very large amount of self-praise. As to the remark by bhe member for Waitemata that the time had not come for turning out bhe Government, the speaker said that directly he bad loet respect for any Ministry tie would certainly vote against them. Holding that view, he intended to vote for bhe amendment against the present combination till it was broken down. The Bop given to Road Boards ought to fnduce him to vote for the Government, but he thought it was possible to give Road Boards too much As one who had been intimately connected with the Maoris, he expressed the i opinion that the Native Minister had been "gulled" by them. State education should not go beyond the Sixth Standard, and nurseries in connection with the educational system should be done away with. The Government had most signally failed to carry out the promises made by them last session, and they appeared to be kept on the benches almost against their own will. He blamed Ministers for canvassing large centres of population during the recess, and , gulling the people. He intended voting for the amendment, and , hoped that before long an

opportunity Would him of voting on'a proposal which would have a more beneficial effect. The usual supper adjournment followed. After supper adjournment Mr J. C. Buck* |EAND continued the debate. He said that before the debate closed he wished to explain that while being undesirous of displacing the present Ministry, there were some rather serious points ot difference between himself and them, and he felt that were he to allow the present opportunity topase without making any remark, he should commit himself to being a supporter to certain Ministerial proposals to which he objected. While giving the Government the credit of heroism for the manner in which they had laid their proposals before the House, he 'expressed his strong disapproval of the proiteotive nature of the same. He believed that in connection with Australia, but not 'apart from it, this colony had a great future. Therefore, tempting Australia to reprisals was a great mistake. He was opposed to any new borrowing, but would continue to support the Government until : he saw what their proposals were. Mr Turnbull intimated his intention of supporting the Government whatever their position might be, He thought that most of the articles taxed in the tariff could be produced here. It was impossible that the country could hear of further borrowing, and with the view of reducing the expenditure he thought that the Government should take a step of an internal nature. The first step towards retrenchment should be decreasing the expenses connected with tbis House. Placing the defences on the loan was a fair proposi tion, and if that were done, taxation would be relieved by £50,000. The Ministry might rely on his support under the circumstances, and he expected that if he offered suggestions they would receive Jue consideration. •Mr O'Connor moved the adjournment of the debate till 2.30 p.m , and the Houee rose at 12.20 a m.

In resuming the no-confidence debate on July 2nd., Mr O'Connor paid ho wanted to look at the icatter as impartially as he could. He found this want-of-confidence motion was brought forward on newspaper criticisms, which hud been repeated over and over again. Calumnies of the most gross character had been directed against the most foremost of our public men, but the House should hurl those expressions from them with disdain, whether the members attacked belonged to one party or the other. He did not believe that the mem bers of the Ministry could have been guilty of even a shadow of suspicion of anything of the kind attributed to them. The speaker defended the tariff. The large consumption of tea in the colon} was a great and growing evil, and a great deal of stuff used as tea had better be kept out of the country altogether. Tea was not a necessary of life. His greal ground of approval of the Government and disapproval of the amendment was their administration The Ministry had shown an intere&t which had never before been manifested in the West Coast of the colony. The Counties Bill was also a step in the right direction, because it gave a kind of assured finance to the governing bodies. The tendency of the Government proposals was to revert towards provincialism. (Applause.) In voting for the abolition of provinces, he freely and openly confessed he had made a mistake. He entirely disagreed with the Legislative Council appointments, and said that in this matter the Government had made a departure from their liberal platform. Mr Montgomery deprecated the action of the member for Auckland City East in bringing foiward a want-of-confidence motion without consulting any other members of the House. Had the member for Egmont submitted a similar vote, ho could not have supported it. So far as the present debate was concerned, the course he intended taking was this: He would vote with the Government on the proposal to go into Committee of Supply, reserving unto himself the right", to vote for or against any proposal, or to endeavour to amend it. So far as the Middle Island was concerned, the depression, instead of passing away, had become deepened, and people had no reason to hope for improvement. (Cries of "Oh!") The colony was overburdened by a heavy public debt, and it was a cruel thing to put taxation on the Middle Island. He was aware that in Auckland, owing to the export of gum and timber, the depression was less severely felt. Taking off one-half the Property Tax of last year was a grevious mistake, and sensorious persons would say the reduction was made in order to make everything pleasant for the people. Asa result ot that reduction the necessaries ot life had now to be taxed by an extra £50,000 ; and, with rogard to that tariff, he vowed that unless the Government were prepared to make considerable modification he would be found in the Opposition. The Local Finance and Powers Bill meant burdening the color y with tremendous responsibilities. If ever there was a bribe held out, it was that bill. He would regret to see the Government displaced, but there was a higher consideration. Whether they stopped on the Treasury benches or not, if the Government Finance Bill were passed, thelocalbodieswoulddeliDeratelylaunchinto aworsesystemofborrowing.andonthesecond reading ho would vote against it, whatever was the result. While he recognised the ability and outspokenness of the Premier, and the honesty of the members of Government, he thought they were overweighted by the Treasurer. Mr Mentbith denied that the Premier was over-weighted in the Cabinet by -the Treasurer. He disputed the assertion that the administration of the Government had been active and vigorous, were he to except Minister of Mines, to whom he paid the highest praise for his assiduity in trying to find out the wants of the districts he visited. So far as the Premier was concerned, he had journeyed to Inangahua district, and by misrepresentation endeavoured to upset him with his (the speakers') constituents. That was one of the practical illustrations of "the able, honest, and effective administration" of the Government during recess. As to the tariff proposed, it was made in the interests of the wealthier classes, and would not create employment or give benefit to th 6 working classes. The present proposals for local government Tie could not hail with satisfaction, and when it came to a question of voting he could not give the bill his support. The principle of protection advocated in the Statement brought down was, he said, a step in the wrong direction, and would simply congest the towns at the expense of the unsettled country He objected to the large powers of administration conferred on Under-Secretaries, and dissented to the Treasurer saying to the House that he had been guided by, one of the heads of departments as an authority for making radical changes of policy. The result of the banishment of abstract questions meant this : —The whole tone o? the House was lowered, and parties, instead of taking sides on political grounds, took sides on questions of mere local importance. As he was simply a member of a party he should, in giving his vote, be guided by the considerations which guided the party to whioh he belonged.

1 Mr Holmes said that the present political (crisis was unique in its features. The jmpmber who had moved the motion, of jwant-of-oonfidence had done so without (consultation with any party. He was {admittedly not the leader of the Opposition) nor had he any large party supporting him, and though he was one of the ablest, iand perhaps one of the most eloquent, .men in the colony, the only attack >he could make on the Government was a personal one directed against the jPremier and Treasurer. The speaker 'proceeded to favourably criticise the Government polioy measures. As to differential irailway rates, be said the Canterbury people deserved exceptional treatment, because the i there produced higher interest than any other part of the colony. He opposed the amendment, and should support the Government, because he believed they had honestly endeavoured to carry out the promises they had made. While voting for the second reading of all their bills, he would reserve the right to alter or expunge in Committee anything objectionable. Mr Bruce spoke in opposition to to protective proposals of the Government. He said the member for Egmont was unquestionably a protectionist, and so, on this important question, he felt himself without a recognised leader. The reason he was an ultra free trader was because he was so well acquainted with America. It was absurd for the advocates of protection to instance America (of which country he spoke with considerable experience, having spent many years there) in support of their arguments, for he affirmed that if the intelligence of America were to be consulted tomorrow, protection would be swept off the face of the earth. Mr Beetham strongly condemned the local government proposals, and said no analogy existed between that measure and the Roads and Bridges Construction Act. Schools ought to be built either from money borrowed from the colony or from the consolidated revenue, and should not be made a charge on local bodies. He believed that the Government recognised that the local governmentscheme would not pass. Acting the part of the candidate's triend, and he thought he might assume that position on the present occasion because he intended voting with the Government, he suggested that they should take back that measure with the view of reintroducing it next year, and in the meantime subsidise local bodies under the Roads and Bridges Construction Act. He recommended the appointment of a Royal Commission to inquire and report as to the best means of distributing subsidies to local bodies, and said that he commended the Government for pushing forward measures of defence As to the Counties Act, the election of county chairmen would be a coßtly proceeding in country districts. He admitted that the position of parties was unique, but the side he voted with, as a rule, wished merely to criticise the Government measures fairly and honestly, and were not desirous of rushing into office. Forthese reasonshe thought the amendment of the member for Auck land City East had placed a false issue before the electors, and he would vote against it. At 11.40 p.m. Mr Garriok moved the adjournment of the debate. The debate on Sir George Grey's no-con-fidence motion was continued by Mr Garrick, who regretted that the motion had been made. He (Mr Garrick) had never heard a speech which contained more covert insinuations or more painful references to other members of the House than that delivsred by the member for Auckland City East on Tuesday night. The real reason of the colony's depression \\as its indebtedness. Vast areas of land in the South Island would not realise mortgages on them, added to which was the failure of the grain crop and of wool, sufficient almost to paralyse all business. He deprecated the abolition of Provincial Government as another causo leading up to depression. If Provincial Government could nofc be restored, it would be best in the interests cf both North and South Islands that there should be insular separation. Ko advocated the imposition of an income tax along with a property tax, and could not understand the reason of the £500 exemption under the property tax, except for the cant of bowing down and worshipping the working man. He thought, on the whole, a working man in these colonies had a very good time of it, He was a thorough free-trader, and declared strongly against the coal tax. Mr J. B. Wiiyte said he had watched the Ministry 'B accession to office with resignation, perhaps induced by the fact thai he could not help it. He felt disappointed with the Treasurer. His confidence had been shaken by recent events. The Government policy seemed to consist solely of borrowing. He shortly condemned the Government proposals, and concluded by saying he need hardly remark that hia vote would be guided selely by abstract principles. Mr Connolly disagreed with the action of the member for Auckland City East in moving his no-confidence vote without being prepared to take the consequences of his action. Personally he had no confidence in the present Government, their bills brought down, or their finance. He looked on them as solely the Governmentof oneman, and that other occupants of the Ministerial benches were dimply following the lead of the Treasurer, and were not expressing their own individual opinions. The Government were deserving of credit for bringing down their policy bills so early, and inviting discussion on them. On taking office last year they had promised great things, bub not one of these promises had been kept. He had heard it stated that the defence expenditure would amount to from £225,000 to £300,000. He favoured direct taxation, and said he would like to see no custom-houses whatever, but merely a property tax, or, if it was desired, an income tax combined with it. The coal duty had been condemned on all hands, and was protection in its worst form. He looked on the Treasurer as a most unsafe guide, and could have no confidence in the Government whilst that hon. gentleman continued to be a member of it Mr Cowan said the thanks of the country and House were due to the occupants of Ministerial benches for the manner in which they had brought the country tace to face with their financial position, and they might look for his support generally. He took the opportunity of saying he aid not approve of their measures, and would reserve to himself the right to oppose certain points in committee. He approved of the land administration, but feared the Government had an intention of settling the land too much in the direction of perpetual leafing. The Hospital and Charitable Aids Bill had the intention of putting every district on an equal footing, and therefore he supported it. The Local Finance Bill gave too great power to local bodies in the way of making use of subsidies which were promised to them by the Legislature. Like many other members he was inclined to give Ministers support, provided they would make their policy bills more in harmony with wishes of the House and the country. i Major Stewart said that in the course of the debate there had scarcely been anything said to reflect upon the administration of Ministers. As a Government

.supporter, he therefore claimed that in asmuoh as speaker - after* speak e npt ; been able to prefer indictments iagainst them, , there was -no indictment to prefer. He paid a high tribute {of praise to Mr Bajlan^e for the efficient manner in which he had discharged his many onerous duties. It redounded more to the courage and boldness of Ministers than, perhaps, to their wisdom in that (to use a military simile) they were prepared to receive cavalry by deploying in line. It was clear that Ministers had entered on a course of retrenchment, but still he thought that retrenchment in the proposals for the ensuing year might have been carried further without sacrificing the efficiency of the public service. As to taxation, if this increased revenue were necessary, the House would have to vote in some other shape or form. Personally, he would like to see the duty on spirits increased by an additional 2s a gallon, which would re alise £50,000. He strongly urged that the coal duty should not be pressed. He hoped the additional Customs taxation would be confined to wines and spirits, silks, velvets, jewellery, artificial flowers, feathers, laces, embroidery, and like luxuries. He disapproved of the system of assured finance provided by the Local Finance Bill, and in lieu thereof suggested that the Property Tax should be handed over to the local bodies to provide for their necessities One cause of the depression in the South Island which had not been noticed by other speakers was that blocks of land were held by capitalists, and settlement was theiefore impossible. He advocated the State buying land in large blocks and letting it in small areas. Mr Fbkgus said he was in a painful position that night, and it was with re luctance he rose to address the House, because he felt as though he was pouring more water on an already drowned rat, It was exceedingly painful, he thought, to see so many candid friends who, twelve months ago, followed Ministers so lavishly into the lobbies, becoming disillusionised in so short a space of time. He did not for a moment wish to displace the Government, for they had not yet filled their cup of iniquity to the brim, though they were rapidly doing so. Though a majority of members were willing to relegate the Ministry to the obscurity of private life, he would go further and say that but little time was required to show that they wore utterly incapable of ruling the destinies of the country. Had the Ministry boldly brought down a protectionist policy, he ventured to say that their resignation would have been compute ry. It was a sorry spectacle that out of the many members who had spoken during the debate, only Messrs O'Connor and Holmes could be found to give the Ministry an unqualified support. So far as their administration of the goldfields was concerned, it had been woefully bad and weak ; and while on this matter he wished to express his condemnation of Mr Larnachs selection as Minister of Mines, and his opinion that the Premier was deserving of severe reprimand in connection with it. Then, as to the Education Department, he thought the administration there also was bad. In a majority of cases the pittance paid to teachers was far too mean for their support. (Applause.) As to his present action, he could not follow the Government into the lobbies, nor could he support the hon. member for Auckland City East, forthereason that hedid aot think the country was ripe for a change, nor had the time come when members of the Ministry should leave their benches. He therefore, in company with many others, probably would abstain from voting. Colonel Tkimble expressed surprise that all the Government supporters, when getting on their feet, should express un bounded confidence in their leader, and then make up the body of their speeches by criticisms unfavourable to the policy of the Government. Whether the amendment was 3arried or not, he thought Sir George Grey bad done a decided service for the fcfouse in giving scope for the debate. He avowed himself a thorough free-ti-ader. Although apposed to the Government, he did not think the present the proper time for bringing forward a motion of want of con Sdence, and whilo voting with the Government, he could not, like many others, blame the member for Auckland bity East for the course he had taken. Mr Hatch supported a protective tariff He denied that his Scotch friends in Otago had decreased their consumption of whisky, and suggested that a distillery should again be erected there, so that barley grown in the place might be used. He placed the trades and occupations ("denomination" as he termed them) of members of the House, and claimed, that of sixteen lawyers in it all but Mr Hislop should support protection, inasmuch as they have acted against free trade in law, which was the object of the Law Practitioners' Act. In the course of a highly humourous speech, he replyed to a remark by the hon. member for the Lakes— who described Invercargill as the " City of Blazes"— by explaining that in his more pious days MiFergus- proached to a Baptist ilock in Hampden, and had suddenly thought of the time when he preached tho doctrine of "hell and damnation. 11 In Committee he promised to endeavour to amend the anomalies in the tariff which ho conceived existed Sir Julius Vogel thanked the hon. member for Nelson for kindly standing s side to allow him to speak. Those membera who had found it necessary to attack the Government had over and over again gone over the same grounds, thereby showing the weakness of their charges of maladministration. He thanked the hon. members for Sfc Albans and Waimate for their defence of the Government proposals. So far as retrenchment was concerned, t'<e civil sers vants of New Zealand were the worst paid of all the colonial civil servants, and a great majority of these officers considered they were ill-paid and ill treated. The speech of the hon. member for Picton (Mr Connolly) was chiefly remarkable for taking exception tothe system of classification of these servant" which it was understood, in come shape of other, was the intention of the Government to which he belonged to introduce. The hon. member for Hokonui (Mr Cowan) suggested that the property exemption should be reduced to £200. Ten thousand additional taxpayers would be brought under such a proposal, and tho revenue derivable would not compensate for the large increase of taxpayers. In noticing the speech of the hon. member for Egmont (Major Atkinson), the speaker alluded to the amount of moderation which that hon. gentleman has shown, andsaid thatin the present state of morals which prevailed in some quarters the moderation evinced had caused the conclusion to be raised of some disgraceful intrigue by himself and that hon. member. Alluding to the speech of the hon. member for Selwyn (Mr Wakefield), he said it was partly a comical performance, and as such amused the House, and was partly argumentative, and as such rather wearied the House. (Laughter,) He regretted the absence of the member for Auckland City East, although perhaps it would be unreasonable to expect him to be in his place at so late an hour. Yet it was necessary that he (the speaker) should make some reference to his remarks His speech wholly failed to disclose any ground for the amendment he had proposed. In fact, he

relied chiefly on personal attack, maini; levelled against himself, on account of eom< information which, he appeared to hay« picked up -without knowing hoVfar it wa/ tirue, and which concerned some dealing with which the speaker had been connected. Sir Julius Vogel went on to explain fth connection with the Telephone Company iand the New Zealand Agricultural Companies. It seemed to him that' if the system of personal attack was to be countenanced, it would be difficult to know where it was to be stopped, and he was sure he would be best consulting the feelings of hon. members in not making further reference to it. The hon. member for Selwyn was veryproud of misrepresenting those whom he attacked, and with respect to the Property Tax had misrepresented him. (Hear.) As to the proposal to make the Legislative Council an elective body, he did not know whether that proposal would be consonant with the views of the present members; He denied that even now there was territorial representation, although that had been the object which had actuated the Government in making their late appointments. There was no intention to further increase the membership at present, but he hoped that the equilibrium of the Legislative Council would be brought about by natural laws. (Great laughter.) He hoped the opinion expressed by the member for Thorndon (Dr. Newman), that New Zealand would not go to the expense of being represented at the Anglo-Colonial Exhibition, would nob be shared in by any other hon. member. He referred to the necessity for the colony making a creditable show there, and announced that only yesterday he had telegraphed Home to know whether the ppace allotted to this colony could not be increased from 10,000£b to 20.000 or 25,000tt. The policy measures brought down were very large. The Government would not insist on every detail being carried, but that they would inpist upon their being passed would go without saying. He denied that throughout Australasia there was a man who was a free trader* pure and simple. He instanced the astonishing success of protection in Canada, and warmly defended a protective tariff. Sh Julius, referring to" personal matters, 3aid he was induced in 1884 to enter this House, aud took office at a great sacrifice, believing he could help the colony out of its unfortunate position, but he denied that before the present Government was formed be had been in communication with the Premier with respect to the construction of a, Cabinet The idea of the Government was that the settlement of land would aid industries. He announced their intention of abandoning the coal duty. (Cheers.) They had offered their policy to the House, and wore not afraid of criticism. Major Atkinson said the Treasurer had assumed a levity of manner which ill became a statesman. The Treasurer had referred to various speakers during tae debate as though they were so many schoolboys. The Premier and Treasurer had made certain statements with reference to the administration of the previous Government of the Hoads and Bridges Construction Act. He challenged the present Ministry to have the matter out before the Public Account 9 Committee. As to the native policy, he said no Native Minister had aver done so much as Mr Bryce, was so much respected, or had so much influence aver the natives. (Cheers.) If a contrast were wanted between his influence and that of his successor, let them accept the Maoris, own words: — "Bryce is a hard man, very hard man, but he is right." Then as to the present minister, "Jolly fellow, Ballance ; get all we want from him." (Laughter.) That described the true character of the two men exactly, and the words used showed the light in which Mr Balance was regarded by Maoris. Many Southern members took but tittle inte est in tbia matter, but he warned them that if they did not pay attention to it, they would have to pay for their indifference. (Cheers.) He did not blame Mr Ballance for want of a iesire to do right, but he lacked firmness. In conclusion, Major Atkinson said he regretted the debate had not been of a more practical character in some respects, but he thought that on the whole it would bave done much good. Before sitting down he should like to etate his reasons for the course which he proposed to follow, and which the majority of those who generally voted with him would probably follow too. It was this — they felt the Government wero thoroughly incompetent, and they ought to be turned out [Opposition cheers), but they recognised that in a democratic country the Parliament was before the people, and that a Parliament not supported by the people would not stand. The people had not yet lost entire hope, however. Their faith in the Government was gone, but they still hoped that the Colonial Treasurer might with a wave of his magic wand do something. (Laughter.) He warned Ministers that if they did not within a very short time devise something better than their w onderful bills, their days were numbered. Then it would be the duty of the House to proceed to execution ("Oh' 1 ), but at the present time they did not propose to pioceed to execution for the reasons he had given, The Government had failed to fulfil their promises, but until the people recognised that, it would be unwise to take steps to eject them from office. Then, and not till then, would it be the duty of this House to take action towards getting rii of one of the worst Governments New Zealand had ever had. It being now 4 o'clock, there were loud cries of " divide." Mr Hislop said that if he had been wavering in his support towards the Government, the peculiar conduct adopted by the Opposition would have decided him how ha should vote. Ho contended that it was the bounden duty of the Opposition to criticise the Government measures, and if they recognised that the Ministry did not possess the confidence of the House and country, to move in the direction of ousting them from oifice. He announced himself a free- trader. Mr T. Thompson (Auckland North) did not entirely approve of tho present Ministry as constructed, or of the measures they had brought before the House, At the same time he could not vote for the amendment, because if the Ministry were turned out he did not know who would replace them. For these reasons he wished it to be understood that in voting for going into Committee of Supply he was guarding himself against the idea that he was giving a general pledge to support the Government. Mr Ross could not support the amendment-, as if successful, Sir George Grey would be unprepared to replace the occupants of the Ministerial benches. He did not think any good could result from continuing this sham fight any longer. While voting for going" into Committee of Supply, he reserved full liberty of action to vote as he pleased, and did not bind himself either to support the tariff or policy bills. Messrs Reese and Hursthouse followed in a similar strain. The latter blamed the Government for appointing all their Justices of the Peace from the toy ns, and said the majority of them knew as little of the requirements of the country districts as he knew ot Kainscnatka. (Cries of " Divide. ")

Mr Levbstam deprecated any attempt to stifle discussion, which had been the intention of the Government on this occasion (Mr SrouT: No.) He said emphatically, "Yes," because dining the last adjournment they had asked the hon. members to bring the debate to a close. The speaker proceeded to tantalise members by making a rambling speech. After he had wandered over a variety of matters the Speaker lef£ the chair for five minutes. In the meantime Mr Stout and others appealed to Mr Levestam to allow the debate to close, and the appeal did not prove unavailing, for on the House resuming he speedily concluded his observations. At five minutes past four the Speaker put the motion, " Thab the House do now go into Committee of Supply." Sir George Grey was not in the House at the time, and there noo being a dissentient voice, the House resolved itself into committee. No sooner had Mr Eamlin taken the chair than in ma ched Sir Gecrge Grey. On the motion to report progress with leave to sit again, he repeated his observation with respect to the impropriety of allowing the Ministerial benches to be occupied by the New Zealand Agricultural Company. He went on to say that the time would come when it would be reccgnised he had striven to do a great service in dra£ ging to light the wrongs done by the Government. (Mr Stout : "Oh!"). The I Attorney-General says "Oh!" He would J be a tyrant over the whole of us. We are not safe. Secret telegrams may he sent to our constituents. (Mr Stout laughed.) The Attorney General laughs, but that vacant laugh is no reply to an accusation of a crime of that sort. Is he merely to sit on the Treasury benches to treat with laughter and contempt persons who dare to speak against the things he has done in violation of the high office which he holds ? The motion for leave to sit again was carried at 4.3?. The Committee adjourned till Tuesday, July 7.