DEBATE ON THE FINANCIAL STATEMENT.

Te Aroha News, Volume II, Issue 69, 27 September 1884, Page 3

DEBATE ON THE FINANCIAL STATEMENT.

Major Atkinson's Onslaught. Tin: House sat at 7.30 last night, Avhcn there was a crowded attendance. On the motion for going into Committee of Supply, Major Atkinson rose, amidst cheers trom both bides of the rfoHse. Bo said the first thing that struck him on reading over the Statement was the failure of the Colonial Treasurer to grapple with any of the great questions before the country, lie had evidently sought io make it pleasant to the country without really going into the question ot the finances. The Colonial Treasurer had given the country to understand that he intended to make great disclosures, but had done nothing more than tollow the lines laid down by his predecessors, except in one particular. He asked those who had read the Statement to give one instance of mismanagement or intricate entanglement. The one exception to which he had referred was the inscription of stock in England. If theie was so much intricate entanglement, it was strange that the Colonial Treasurer had brought down his Estimates as accurate. He ridiculed the pretensions of Sir Julius Vogel to having brought down a plain and easily understood statement. He referred to the sum of iSO,OOO on overdue expenditures, which was w holly omitted from the Estimates, while nothing was said about provision for other debentures which were coming due. Sir Julius Vogel told his friends that he considered it would be foolish of him to attempt to work out his predecessor's difficulties, but he asked if it was not for that purpose that the Colonial Treasurer had been placed in office. Something was said about the deficiency of £150,000, but he asked why was not pro vision made to refund it. Why did they not retain the property tax ? Was the glorious discovery the Sinking Fund which they should anticipate? If the Sinking Fund had been seized last year, where would have been the deficiency ? and would there not have been a surplus ? Ho pointed out that if the cost of the extra session, the amount which would have been saved by Civil Service reform, and the reduction in the education estimates, were deducted, the revenue would exceed the expenditure. He denied that Sir Julius Vogel's references to the Civil Service were a reply to the policy of his Government, no such proposals having been made by them. The Colonial Treasurer had not the courage to embody in his Statement anything that was unpleasant to the House. He had omitted any reference to his proposals for tho reduction of the education vote. The Treasurer claimed they had not been long enough in office to say much on the question of. railways, although there were amongst his colleagues gentlemen who had made almost a life study of the subject. Major Atkinson proceeded to attack the Canterbury members for their action respecting the grain rates, and claimed credit for his Cabinet for the courage of its opinions. He referred to the Public Works proposals of the Government, and certain members interjected. They would get justice. The Major retorted that eight or ten millions would not give what members appeared to consider justice. They were told that the intention of the Colonial Treasurer was to let the public debt fetand as it was, but it should be understood that instead of doing this they were increasing the debt by the amount of the Sinking Fund. Speaking in reference to the inscription of the 5.30 or consolidated loan of '67, he asked lion, members to recall the time in 1877 when he was Coloial Treasurer. He wrote from England with a smiling face and aching heart telling the Government what great difficulty he had in scraping together a little money, and could only sell 4 per cents, at 80. He reminded them that Sir Julius had even sent the opinion of Sir Penrose July an that inscription could only go very slowly ahead, not more than £100,000 a-year. Sir Julius added he thought it would be done a.

littlo faster. Now ho told them it could and should havo bcon dono. He thon rofoiTod to tho time in ISBO when the Houso opposed the intention to inscribe, and reminded members in the following year that the recommendation of Sir Dillon Bell and Sir Penroso Julyan was to inscribo tho 5.30 in preference to the Consolidated Loan of 1567. He asked if the late Government could be blamed for acting on the advico of their own paid agents. [Mr Homles interjected : " Master ruled by servant."] Major Atkinson retorted : "Yes, in the same manner as the master is often ruled by the lawyer whon ho goes to ask him what to do." It has been said that the colony had been dozing for the last five , years, but in refutation of this assertion '; he pointed to the great number of paying immigrants, the increase in grain exportation, the development of tho frozen meat trade, the fact that wo had two lines of the h'nost steamers in the world plying to the colony, the difference in cultivated land, and the advancement of local industries by leaps and bounds. If the colony had been dozing for the last five years, it had been asleep the five years preceding, and if it went on advancing during the next five years at the same rate, colonists would havo nothing to regrot. Major Atkinson proceeded to refer to tho borrowing during the last five years, and said that while a million had been borrowed (.0 assist tho Consolidated Fund the same amount had been spent from it on public buildings They were told that the Sinking Fund was to bo relieved and no payments would be required to be made again, but how were they to provide for the necessary educational buildings, etc. ? Referring to the rcleaso of tho Sinking Fund and reduction of the property tax, Major Atkinson asserted that the Colonial Treasurer did not believe in direct taxation, and that ho was opposed to the land tax, but the Hon. Premier and tho member for Auckland City East were not. They sought to impose a heavy tax with the ultimate view to tho nationalisation of land. He attacked the proposal to roleaso the Sinking Fund, and thought the country should bear the present taxation for another year to enable the inscription to go on, and avoid the alleged necessity for seizing the Sinking Fund. In conclusion, ho said a more unsatisfactory Statement had never been laid beforo the House. [Sir J. Vogel : " Unsatisfactory to you."] Major Atkinson rotorted that as a party man it was rather the contrary. He could not have wished for anything better. The apple ' ""keel very nico on the outside, but the 111 st lu'to would disclose ashes. At the conclusion the S[ eech was greeted with cheei^s, Mr Moss said several years ago he had, with the assistance of 23 other gentlemen, attempted to stop the member for Egmont from commencing tho downward career which he was entering upon, and now they wore about to plunge more deeply in the mine. He hold that the financial proposals meant an additional debt of seven and a-half millions, and he asked what light they had to mortgage the position of those who are to come after us. He moved as an amendment, "That in the existing financial position of the colony it, is not desirable to reduce taxation unless there was a corresponding reduction in the expenditure of tho colony." Mr Moss spoko till tho 10 o'clock adjournment. Tho Colonial Treasurer followed. He described the speech of Major Atkinson as that of an old scold. Ho did not think, as asserted by Major Atkinson, that any reproach attached to the Government for neglecting to deal with tho subjects of local Government, charitable aid, or taxation this session, tie thought it was betfer they shculd delay the matter for the present than deal with it too hurriedly. He would have preferred to do away with tho Property Tay altogether this year, but had promised not to raiso the question of Land Tax this half session. They had done the best they could to reviso the estimates in the time at their disposal, but it must be remembered that tho year was half gone beforo they came into office, and serious alterations could not be made without due notice. He characterised as " disgraceful and discreditable " that the late Government should have destroyed tho Civil Service Bill, which was the property of the colony. Major Atkinson had, as it were, danced with light-hcartedness on the floor of the House, that there were no disclosures made in the statement. Revelations had been going on, which, if they had been made, would have affected the political reputation of the late Treasurer. Tho financial statement was a docament which was read in Australia and England, as well as here, and for the credit of tne colony the Cabinet did not wish to extend those disclosures more [Major Atkinson : Let us have them now.] Sir Julius Vouel : Well, you shall have them. The speaker proceeded to say that he had been accused of omitting from the statement the fact that there were £20,000 worth of debentures overdue, but he could not have mentioned that fact without letting it bo seen that £20,000 worth of their bonds were overdue, but were dishonoured [Major Atkinson : No.] [Sir Julius Vogel repeated : They were. He said the Public Trustee told him that he asked for authority to make the payment, but Major Atkinson refused on the ground that it was not convenient. He (Sir Julius) had since ordered the payment of the money, and now described the whole proceeding as immoral and illegal, and notably that a voucher was submitted to the Audit Office for a permanent charge, although no interest was payable. Then it had cometo his knowledge that an amount of accumulated contractors' doposits had been paid into the Consolidated Fund despite the remonstrances of the Auditor-General and the Treasury. He declined to recognise the sum as a liability. A further amount of £20,000 was lost to the colony by the mode of remitting money to England. He described Major Atkinson as a baby in finance. Sir Julius defended Sir Geo. Grey from the attacks made upon him by Major Atkinson, ahd said, as a dispassionate observer, that the low position of the colony in the London money market several years ago was caused by the selfish action of Major Atkinson in preventing Sir G. Grey from getting more than two and a half millions when he asked for four. He answered the charges of Major Atkinson at length, and said that apart from the support that the financial proposals had received in the House, there were evidences from all parts of the colony of the cordiality with which their Statement had been received. Sir Julius was also loudly applauded. Mr Wakefield followed in a clear and amusing speech. He defended the lato Government from the attacks of the Colonial Treasurer, and pulled the financial statement to pieces. He said there was nothing worth a rap in the statement except borrowing, and fully seven millions would be required to carry out the proposals. He ridiculed the new market which Sir Julius Vogel suggested for frozen meat industry, and said that unless steps were taken at once to prevent it blocks of land on the route of the North Island trunk railway would immediately be passing into the hands of private speculators. Mr Holmes moved the adjournment of the debate till Tuesday. At 1 a.m. the House adjourned,

Wellington, September 24. TifK House mot at 2.30 p.m.

Bills. The following bills were introduced and read a first time : Bill to Amend the Law relating to Contompt of Court (Groy), GoM Duties Act, 1872 and 1882, Amendment Bill (Seddon).

Imprest Supply. Sir Julius Vogkl moved the second reading of tho Public Revenue Bill, which provides for tho issue of an additional £150,008 worth of deficiency bills. Major Atktnson inquired why the money was required. Sir Julius Vooel replied that it was because the revenue for the month was insufficient. The bill passed through all stages. Tho Registration of Births Bill was brought down from the Upper House, and read a first time.

The Financial Debate. The debate on the Financial Statement was resumed by Mr Holmes at a quarter to 4. The speaker addressed himself to Mr Wakefield, whoso speech he characterised as a tissue of sneers, jeers, and ridicule, He asserted that when he heard Mr Wakefield rebuking the Treasurer ho felt it to be a case of Satan rebuking sin. He referred at length to tho political inconsistencies of the member for Solwyn, and twitted him with " ratting " in order to embrace a former opponent, and at the same time gratify his ambition at the cost of a sacrifice of his principles. He insinuated that Mr Wakefield was willing to tako office with his friend, Sir Julius Vogel. Mr Holmes concluded a speech of an hour and three quarters' duration by a hope that Mr Moss would withdraw his amendment, which, he paid, practically meant a vote of want of-confi-dence. The House adjourned at 530 till the evening sitting. When the Speaker took the chair at 7.30, | Mr Wakefielu was on the floor of the i Houpe anxious to make an explanation. Ho denied Mr Holmes's assertion that lie ! had been intriguing with Sir Julius Vogel, and read notes from Sir Julius Vogel upbraiding him for not calling to see him, and asking him to do so at four o'clock that aftornoon. Mr W. F. Buuklani") resumed tho debate. Ho considered that Mr Holmes's remarks had been nothing but a personal attack on Mr Wakefield, instead ot a criticism of the Statement and reviewing the proposals. He said that if all that the Government proposed to do for local industries Avas to hold exhibitions, they had better save the money. He raised a laugh by the remark that now that we were coming out as showmen, the next thing we would hear of would be a proposal to run circuses for horsobreeding. Mr Bi.vax described the Statement as one of the most intelligible that had been presented to the country tor the last five years. He icad a telegram which he claimed was from his constituents, but which Mr Hurst interjected was from the Chairman of the Westland Board of Education. This document ran: "Everyone here under-st-mds Vogel's Financial Statement. All financial statements for the last five years have been unintelligible, but all tho dense fog has at last disappeared." Mr Bryce took exception to the proposals for the reduction of the A. C. as unwise, and said he would oppose them at tho proper time. He considered that the financial proposals meant fiesh borrowing, which would be enormous, tenifying. and alaiming in its magnitude. All this had been carefully hidden in the Statement, but ho con Id show that the Statement meant borrowing at least seven millions and a-half. It was intended to borrow the third million and a million for the construction of the North Island Trunk Railway. Permission was asked to raise an additional million and a - half. There were two millions and a-half for the railway syndicate and proposals for other works meant a further expenditure of a million and a half. He asserted that the Colonial Treasurer's dislike to the property tax arosefrom the fact that under it mortgages were taxed and argued to show that it was only right that the money-lending interest in the colony should be taxed. Mr Ballance defended the policy of the Government, which, he said, they were prepared to give effect to as soon as possible. He did not say that they would be carried out this session, but would in time, and he contended that it was a policy that would develop the resources of the country and contribute to its prosperity. Respecting the proposed reduction of the A.C., he pointed out that they Avere blamed for bringing down the same estimates as their predecessors, and at the same time charged with making no reductions. He maintained thatthe natives were notinclined togoto Avar, and that conciliation would be found more effective in dealing with them than tho policy pursued by the late Nati\ r e Minister. At all events tho natives would not bacome disaffected because of the reduction of the Constabulary. Regarding the loan pro posals he submitted that the greater part of the money which they proposed to borrow Avas needed to pay off debts incurred by the Atkinson Government. Mr Rolleston defended the late Government from the charges made by them. He said that when they took office, five years ago, they found the colony in such a critical position that it was found necessary to borrow fiVe millions. They had at the same time been committed by thei* predecessors to an expenditure of tAvelve millions. He asserted that thero Avere divided counsels on the Government benches, and that while the Liberal element was represented, the money-lender and land monopolist were represented there in the person of Sir Julius Vogel Mr Montgomery criticised the Statement, and although avoAving himself to be a supporter of the Government, objected to the reduction of the education vote. He said that unless the Government consented to replace on the Estimates the Is 3d Avhieh was taken off the capitation alloAvance, he would place a motion on the Paper asking His Excellency to replace the amount. Mr Hursthouse ai'gued to show that the colony had never progressed at such a rate as during the last five years. He considered, however, that so far as railway constr uction was concerned, Aye were ahead of the times, and that while tho agricultural interests a* ere in a depressed state it Avould be better to stay our hand He expressed tho opinion that the late Government Avas no better than the present one, and the present Avas going to be no better than the late one. He attacked the Government, which professed to be Liberal, for its illiberal action in attempting to reduce the capitation grant in the Education Department. The debate was adjourned, on the motion of Col. Trimble. The House adjourned at 12.30 a.m. Wellington, Septomber 24. The House met at 2.30 p.m. yesterday.

Questions. Mr Buchanan was assured by Mr Richardson that it was not the intention of the Government to amend the Roads and Bridges Construction Act this session. Mr Macandrew asked why the recommendation of tho Committee in the petition

of VV. Robertson, of Auckland has not been complied with ; the reply from Mr Ballanoe being that it was impossible to carry out the recommendation without fresh legislation. Mr Buchanan raised the question whether the Government would ask Registrars of Electors for suggestions in the direction of improving the form of enrolment. Mr Tole replied that circulars were issued two years ago, and some information obtained. There would be no objection to issue a further circular.

Committees. The following alterations were made in the personnel of Committees :— Mr Ormond added to the Waste Lands on the motion of Mr Ballance ; Mr J. T. Thompson added to Public Petitions on the motion of Mr Turnbull ; while Messrs Hobbs and Allwright were discharged from Native Affairs and Petitions Committee respectively on their own motions. A number of unopposed returns were ordered.

Kawakawa Railway. Mr Siirimski introduced a motion for the production of the lease granted by the Government to the Kawakawa Coal Company.

I Financial Debate. The debate on the Financial Statement was resumed at 2.40 p.m. by Col. Trimble who had moved the adjournment yesterday. Ho defended the Hall Government from the charges of ransacking the telegraph office in search of political telegrams, and explained the circumstances. Copies of telegrams sent at tho public oxpense on election matters were forwarded to Mr Hall by tho officers in charge, and he examined them, setting aside any which he considered private. It was not possible for him to know which were public and which were private before he examined them. Col. Trimble proceeded to refer to the mode of raising C 500,000 which was being pursued by Sir J. Vogel, and fraid such conduct would damn a man in private life. He objected to the proposal to reduce the education capitation grant,and considered that the saving of the driblet was really a blow at the education system of the colony. He would not, he said, favour the taking away of any of tho education endowments in the South, but would support the granting of these endowments in the North. He admitted that recently matters in tho White Cliffs District had been in such a state that the reduction of Armed Constabulary was possibly consistent with safety, but that reduction had been made and the force reduced from 700 to 400 odd, and further reduction would be injudicious, and would leave the country in the same unprotected state as it was in 1579. If an emergency occurred, the £20,000 now to be saved would not meet the expenditure that would become necessary through the absence of proper protection. Mr J. S. MacKenzie followed. He objected to the raking up of old accusations and stories in the progress of the debate. So far as he could see,he felt that Colonel Trimble had not made out a good case when he denounced the method adopted by Sir J. Vogel for raising the half million. He was sorry the proposed reduction of tho Armed Constabulary is not greater than it is, and touching on the question of Public Works, urged the advantages that would accrue from the introduction of the overflowing English capital for tho development of the industries of this country. It had occurred to him, when the member for Franklyn North was comparing the proposed industrial exhibition to a travelling circus, that the hon. member was making an exhibition of himself. He quoted the eulogy oi the late Prince Consort on the .subject of exhibitions. lie did not think Sir Julius Vogel should be blamed for making the Financial Statement pleasant w hen the member for Egmont had excelled himself by making painful Statements for the last two or three years. He did not agree with all that was in the Statement, the proposal to reduce the capitation grant for schools, tor instance, not meeting with his approval, but at the same time he was not prepared to vote against a Government which shows us a method by which we can be relieved of our difficulties without doing injury to anyone. The House adjourned at .'>.3o p.m. At tho evening sitting the debate was continued. Mr Mknteitii said that the Statement contained a great deal of .stuffing, and whatever had been said to the contrary, he believed the member for Selwyn had been successful in knocking that stuffing cut of it. Mr Menteith argued to show that the pro posals of the (Government wore weak, and asserted that the member for City East in supporting the land tax was doing so in the interests of the policy of confiscation which he was always advocating. Mr Gillies deprecated the personal tone of the debate, and considered that it was wrong of members to be constantly raising a cry of the colony being on the verge oi bankruptcy. He did not see why it was we should be constantly fouling our own nests by croaking poverty and bankruptcy when we knew that the assessment of real and personal property in the colony amounted to so large a sum as L 165,000,000. It could not be too strongly borne in mind that New Zealand is in a perfectly sound condition. He did not consider the borrowing proposals of the Government were exorbitant. He denied that by any method of twisting the proposals could be understood to indicate a loan of seven millions and a-half. He held that the present Government could not be held responsible for tho expenditure to which they had been committed by their predecessors. He maintained that there were many advantages accruing from a national debt, and he hoped we would never attempt to pay ours off. Criticising the Statement, he described as pitiable and wretched the attempt to reduce the education vote, and said it was to be deplored that the first stab at our education system should come from a Liberal Government. He regretted the partial removal of the property tax, and asserted that if a poll of the electors were taken to-morrow, the result would be in favour of the property tax being made. He suggested that it should be made a local tax, payable to the local governing bodies, by whom the anomalies would be corrected. Mr McKenzie, who followed, paid the momber for Inangahua owed his election to the promises which he had made to support Sir Julius Vogel. Ho did not think our debt should be compared to that of England. The debtthero was created to carry on wars, while here it was in order to carry out productive public works. Mr Ormond thought the Treasurer should have made it clear how he proposed to take advantage of the L 244,000 which he expected to save, and which was to afford relief from the property tax and charitable aid expenditure. If ho did, his proposal would meet with the approval of the House, and the result would be a relief to the country without damaging its credit. Generally, he might be understood to agree to the esti mated revenues and its proposed mode oi expenditure, but at the same time thought provision should have been made for roads in the country and other local expenditure, and also works under tho Roads and,'

Bridges Construction Act. He deprecated the paltry reduction which was sought to be made in the education expenditure. If the Treasurer wished to alter the system, he should have brought clown a bill on the whole subject. As a whole, he believed the people of the colony were opposed to any change in the education system. He was sorry that the proposed alteration emanated from a Government which professed to be a Liberalone. Thepresent capitation grantwas not a penny too great for efficient working, and if it were diminished the country schools would be sufferers. He considered it would be better to retain the Constabulary in the present state— not for aggressive purposes — but rather than run risks of we knew not what. With these exceptions he was glad he was able to give the Government his support. He agreed that the whole system of local government required changing, and expressed an opinion that extended powers should be given them. He said the management of hospitals and asylums by the Government during the last five years was more discreditable than in any other part of the world. He advocated a land tax in preferenco to a property tax, and suggested that the money thus derived should be given as local revenue. He supported the Government on the understanding that during the recess they would develop a system of local government, and bring down a proposal for a land tax, and, if necessary, an income tax, and then if there was a difference of opinion in the Hou=>r,they would be justified in asking for an appeal to the country, and that request should be granted. (Cheers.) Mr I'yke denounced what he called the perfect confusion in which local government was for the last few years, and added that every eighth porson at present was assisting to rule the country. Mr Gr*gg attacked the loan proposals. Messrs Newman, Wi Pere, Beetham, Seddon, and Te Ao followed. Major Atkinson commenced to speak at 12.30 a.m. Referring to L 20,000 worth of debentures which had not been taken up, he asked what possible necessity there could have been for him to dishonour them when he could easily have got authority from the House. The Trustee was not in Wellington when the bonds fell due, and Mr Clark wrote a letter which had been referred to. As their payment was not immediately required, he arranged vith the Trustee on his return to continue them at the same rate of interest.