BIBLE IN SCHOOLS REJECTED

Sun (Auckland), Volume I, Issue 192, 3 November 1927, Page 15

BIBLE IN SCHOOLS REJECTED

EXCITING division in house \ —— bill postponed by margin of five (THE SUS S Parliamentary Reporter.) WELLINGTON, Wednesday. fE long-awaited trial of strength on the Religious Exercises in Schools Bill has ended in victory for the oppots 0 f the measure by the margin of five votes. The House nf Representatives this evening decided, by 36 votes to 31, to postpone the second reading of the Bill for six months. Thi g wa s done on an amendment moved by Mr. H. Atmore, Nelson, whieh proposed the postponement in order to give its nromoters an opportunity of considering the Nelson system, as recommended by the Education Committee, which heard evidence on the Bill.

,ITI things come to him who waits. : 'i Th»t j S what Mr. H. Holland, ' tir for Christchurch North, saicl *”* r ,dUed to the House of HefJSnftFves this afternoon that lie ?r V —Tltoct 15 weeks to bring: on his : & Exercises in Schools Bill, | "which a controversy has been •"L, throughout the country for the months, and whicli appeared order paper for the second patient waiting would bring Ar Hoiked the realisation of ills inthe passage of the Bill was r be decided at that moment, for K opponents qf Bible reading in ‘iLjla were fully firmed witn literate and strategy to meet the .sponsors Iftha Bill half-way in any move that !tht be made to facilitate Us proSJss to the Statute Book. absorbing comment upon the J7 ve attitude toward religious exeri was made during the afternoon, Irten Sir Apirana Ngata claimed that ! introduction of the Bible into the hools wa* a recognition of the failifj 0 f the Church to do its job, and lead to the withdrawal of all Slve children from State schools throughout the country. FIRST TACTICAL MOVE The first indication of trouble bepjme manifest as soon as the second •ending was called. Mr. P. Fraser, member for Wellington Central, raised 6 ooint of order in an endeavour to kill tiie Bill on the ground that the compilation of the hymnal by the Educam Department and the free distribution of it to native children and neces--OUd cases in the schools, would invulve an appropriation on the State, k w hich case a private- member’s Bill b not allowed to proceed. Mr, Fraser made the most of his cm, and quoted extensively from landing Orders of the New Zealand PtfUament as well as the House of Commons, and from several authorities on Standing Orders in debate. The question whether the appropriation amounted to shillings or to hundreds tf thousands of pounds was beside the point, he said. The Government made an annual grant for school books and any expenditure in this connection involved in the Bill would make an additional charge on the State. The Speaker, the Hon. Sir Charles Statijam, preferred to leave the question of whether the Bill involved an appropriation to the Chairman of Committees, and suggested that the Bill should be allowed to go to its second wading. If there was an appropriation, it was merely incidental to the measure. When the Bill appeared before < 'mniitt.ee the chairman could decide, r.d if his ruling were questioned, then he (the Speaker) would give his decision on the point.

Although he admitted that everything that was to be said for and uuain»t the Bill had been said, Mr. Holland occupied the greater portion of his allotted hour in moving the second reading. He expressed gratitude to the Prime Minister for the courtesy in giving the Bill a run; he claimed sincerity in sponsoring the Bill; he save credit to opponents for equal sincerity. The Bible appeared to be regarded in the light of a reptile, he said, but his endeavour was to convince the House that religious exercises in schools would prove to be a solution of many of the moral problems of the present day. MR. ATMORE’S AMENDMENT Mr. H. Atmore, Nelson, moved as an imendment that the Bill should be read 4 second time “this day six months” in order that its promoters might have th« opportunity of considering the application of the Nelson system, as refommended by the Education Committee. The amendment was seconded by

the Hon. Sir Apirana Ngata, Eastern Maori. The full text of the amendment was: •Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the foregoing provisions of this Act, the school committee, or other controlling authority of any school to which this Act applies, may at any time authorise the conduct of religious exercises at that school in accordance with the system commonly known as the Nelson system, and it shall not be necessary in connection with that school to perform any religious exercises in accordance with the foregoing provisions of this Act at any time while the Nelson system is effectively in operation therein.” Sir Apirana gravely warned the House of the dang era of misunderstandings that would be created among the Maori were the Bible in schools system introduced. It might, lie said, result in the withdrawal of children from the native schools. Many religious sects had adherents among the Maori —the Roman Catholics, the Church of England, the Methodists, the Itingatu, the Mormons, and latterly, the Katana movement. By many of these groups Bible reading would be misunderstood, and it might lead to serious difficulties among the Maori people. “WEAKNESS OF CHURCHES" “It is the greatest possible confession of weakness in history, on the part of the churches,” said Sir Apirana. “It shows that they are not doing their job. It seems that the pakehas of New Zealand are getting back to the state of affairs that existed in the Old Country, that caused them to migrate to New Zealand to seek their freedom here.” The Nelson system had a warm advocate in Mr. R. P. Hudson, Motueka,

who said that when the Bill reached the committee stage, he would move an amendment to provide that the Act should not apply unless the controlling authority had determined that it was not convenient or practicable to adopt the Nelson system. DEBATE DRAGS ON The debate dragged wearily on throughtout the evening. Much was heard of the Nelson system, much was said of the morality of our youth, and much was made of the relation of the State to the Church, and the attitude of the Catholic Church toward Bible reading. Mr. D. G. Sullivan, Avon, foresaw the Minister of Education becoming the high priest of the State Church and outlined what he termed the intolerance of the Catholic Church to what was regarded in the light of “emasculated Christianity.” The Hon. W. Nosworthy declared that Bible reading in schools was surely coming, and when it did, it would arrive in the form of such an avalanche that opponents would be left. Mr. H. E. Holland: Are you threatening the Prime Minister? Mr. Nosworthy: I am not threatening at all, but I say this is coming. It was 10.30 before the House was ready to vote on Mr. Atmore’s amendment and the large crowds who waited in the galleries enjoyed the satisfaction of seeing a very close division, a division of which neither side could anticipate the result.

A great deal of lobbying among members had been done by respective sides, but even in the face of this, and with a few pairs arranged, none could tell how the division would go, and intense interest prevailed as the division was called and the doors locked. Voting on the retention of the original clause was lost by 34 to 31, and then voting was taken on the insertion of Mr. Atmore’s amendment and this was carried by 36 to 31. The effect of these divisions is to kill the Bill. The division list was as follows on Mr. Atmore’s amendment: AYES—36. Armstrong. Forbes. Atmore. Fraser. Bartram. Henare. Bell. Holland, H. E. Buddo. Horn. Coates. Howard. Eliott. Potter. Hudson. Ransom. Jordan. Rolleston, F. J. Lee, J. A. Rolleston, J. C. McCombs. Savage. MeKeen. Seddon. Martin. Smith. Mason, H. G. R. Sullivan. Mason, J. Veitch. Ngata Ward. Parry. Wilford. Pomare. Field. NOES —31. Wrigrh t. Jones, D. Anderson. Luke. Bellringer. Lysnar. Kitchener. McLennan. Burnett. McLeod. Dickson, J. McC.. Macmillan. Dickson, J. S. Nash. Girling. Nosworthy. Glenn. Reid, Hamilton, A. Rhodes. Hamilton, J. R. Sidey. Harris. Stewar£. Hawken. Sykes. Hockly. Waite. Holland, H. Williams. Hunter. _ . , Pairs. —For the Bill: E. P. Lee, Linklater, Dickie. Forsyth. Against the Bill: Kyle, W. Jones, Samuel, Walter. The explanation of the difference in the figures of the two divisions is that the Prime Minister changed his vote, voting for the amendment in the second division. Mr. H. T. Armstrong, Christchurch East, did not vote in the first division, but voted for the amendment in the second division. Mr. T. W. Rhodes, Thames, did not vote in the first division, but voted against the amendment. in the second division.