Tuesday, 14th May.

Southland Times, Issue 1581, 21 May 1872, Page 3

Tuesday, 14th May.

Mr Maeflps^y asked the Provincial Solicitor ""Whether the words ' readirg the Bible, 1 in the 40th clause of the * Education Ordinance, 1564,' implied that the Bible should he read without rote or comment; and whether the words 'such instruction' meant reading only ?" Mr Bathgate said: I nm of opinion that the words " the Holy Scriptures shall be read daily," mean that the Bible shall be read daily without note or comment, and the words " such instruction" refer to such reading only. In order to arrive at the meaning of the words "such instruction" it is necessary to refer back for an explanation of the word "such." An answer is found in r the beginning of the section in the phrase " such reading," which, again refers to the antecedent requirement that the Holy Scriptures shall be read. Where words are not technical, the presumption is that they were used by the Legislature in their ordinary, popular, or general signification. The ordinary meaning of the term " instruction," is the act of teaching; or imparting information, and the act of " reading" is sufficiently within such a definition as to warrant me in saying that, in my opinion, the words " such instruction," taken in the context, refer to the act of reading only. This conclusion to which I have come is strengthened by the consideration of the Education Ordinance, 1862, which was repealed by the existing Ordinance. In the Ordinance which was repealed not only was the reading of the Scriptures duly prescribed, but also " such religious instruction" as the School Committee should appoint—not at variance " with what are commonly known as Evangelical Doctrines." The omission of such a specific provision in the existing Ordinance must have been intentional; and it seems to me to be clear that the will and purpose of the Legislature were to limit religious instruction to the simple reading of the Bible as commanded. I may state that the interpretation which I have given is that which is put on the Ordinance by the Education Board. The Hon. Dr Menzies asked the Provincial Secretary what progress had been made in printing the records of the Southland Provincial Council. Mr Reid replied that, as the honorable member had explained, the proceedings of the last Council of Southland had already been printed. Upon enquiry, he found that a great portion of the proceedings of the previous Councils was prepared for printing; but it would require a vote of this Council to enable those proceedings to be printed. Last year there were no funds to cover the expenditure ; a vote was now required, and that would be asked for. Mr Basstian aaked the Provincial Secretary if he could give any information as to the contract entered into with the General Government for the supply of Telegraph Posts throughout the Province, and the cost of tbe same ? Mr Eeid regretted to say that he could not publish the information. The Provincial Government had no control of the matter, nor had they any information in regard to the contracts. The Invercargill Reserves Management Bill, and the Southland Education Reserve Exchange Bill, were read a third time and passed. The Hospitals Ordinance (Southland) Repeal Bill was read a second time, committed, and its third reading made an order of the day for next sitting day. The Cemeteries Ordinance (Southland) Repeal Bill, and the Invercargill Athenaeum Reserve Management Ordinance Amendment Bill, were read a second time, considered in Committee, read a third time, and passed. Mr M'Dermid moved, " That an Address be presented to His Honor the Superintendent, recommending him to reserve and set apart 500,000 acres pastoral land as a further endowment for the ordinary schools of the Province." Mr Reid said it really appeared that some Honorable members looked upon the lands as inexhaustible. The country was pretty well tied up with reserves, when they took into consideration lands that had to be retained for agricultural purposes, and forest and mineral lands. They had a revenue of upwards of £7000 per annum for Educational Reserves, and all things considered, he thought they had gone quite far enough in making reserves. Mr Reynolds moved the previous question, with the view of postponing the matter uutil the Committee had brought up their report. If the previous question were carried, the hon. member would not be debarred from bringing forward his motion again during the present session. Mr Hutcheson supported the original motion. He would never be satisfied until the elementary schools were placed in a position equal to that of the University. The original motion was carried. Mr Macassey moved " (1.) That this Council recognises the right of the Roman Catholic body to participate in the annual grant for educational purposes. (2.) That the Government be requested to bring in a Bill to amend the Education Ordinances, with a view to provide for the distribution among Roman Catholic Schools of a just and fair proportion of the Education Grant." He said that it was important for the Council to consider whether it could afford to ignore the manifested feelings not merely of tbe Roman Catholic population that numbered 7400, but also the opinions of a very important section of the community, namely, the Church of England; and he thought he could succeed in producing in the minds of honorable members a conviction that in the main the views held by the members of the Church of England entirely coincided with the views of the Roman Catholic population. Honorable members would no doubt admit that their educational institutions were supported partly by contributions to the Provincial

revenue made by the Roman Catholics. He believed honorable members would therefore admit the riffht of the Roman Catholifs to enjoy a fair portion of tho teaching system, and he had no doubt mothers would go further and admit this: That not merelv were the Catholics entitled to educate their children, and be aided, but that they wero also entitled to be represented in the governing bodies of the educational establishment. Let him ask if honorable members could conscientiously asaert that the Catholics enjoyed those advantages which honorable members would admit their right to enjoy? As an example, there was not a single Roman Catholic in the Council of the Otago University, nor in the Education Board. The Roman Catholic body were in a minority in every electoral district, the appointment of School Committees depended upon i" the voices of those whose faith was i not that of the Roman Catholics. I Referring to the argument that if the I claims of the Catholics were recognised, claims of other Churches for a separate system of education would have to be met, Mr Macassey said he thought that although members of the Church of England held views in regard to the system of education corresponding with those of Catholics, yet it did not at all follow that because the Catholic claims were sanctioned, they would be called upon immediately afterwards to sanction the claims of the Church of England. After all, he would ask, was there not at the bottom of this controversy existing unconsciously a lurking prejudice against Catholicism ? He would ask hon. members not to be led away by a passing sentiment in this Province, but to turn to the important lessons history taught them, and endeavor to cull from them principles which would guide them in the determination of this question. After alluding to the granting of Catholic emancipation, and the passing of the Act disestablishing the Irish Church, in spite of a feoling somewhat similar to that which perhaps existed at present in this Province, as examples worthy of being followed, Mr Macassey s.iid he would ask honorable members, before the Colonial Legislature met, if they were anxious to retain this Educational system, to adopt a healing conciliatory policy, and to concede to the Roman Catholics those just claims which he so feebly advocated on their behalf. (The honorable gentleman was -warmly applauded on resuming his seat). The resolutions were seconded by Mr Armstrong, who said he thought it would be only dealing fairly towards the Roman Catholics to carry the resolutions. If his memory served him right, the Scriptures said " Religion is the salt of the earth." Would hon. members allow it to be settled that the rising generation should be fed without salt all the week, and have nothing but salt on Sundays. — (Loud laughter). Mr Bathgate then addressed the Council, delivering a very forcible speech against the resolutions, and while advocating strongly his views in opposition to denominational education, declared himself to be actuated by no feelings other than those of the warmest regard for his Roman Catholic fellow-colonists. Mr Mervyn moved as an amendment — " That this Council recognises the right of all classes of the community being placed upon an equal footing, and to participate equally in the advantages of our Educational system. 2nd. That the Grovernment be requested to bring in a Bill to amend the Education Ordinances, so as to remove all just cause of complaint on the part of the Catholic portion of the community, and to make the system purely secular." Mr Lumsden could not see why this discussion had been got up, except for giving the honorable member for Waikari an opportunity of ventilating his views on the question. As the matter was about to be dealt with by the Assembly, he did not see the object of discussing it. Had the discussion been on the aided, clauses, then he could see a reason for its being brought on, and would have voted for their suppression. He argued that to provide national education here, and to ensure national harmony, a purely secular system must be established. Mr Reid, while he admired Mr Macassey's speech as an effort, considered that he fell very short in dealing with the subject in a logical and proper manner. In reply to him, he would say that ministers of religion and school teachers had their civil rights, and he did not see why they should be debarred from using them, or from exercising their free right of judgment. He should like to see Roman Catholics exercising their influence in School Boards in proportion to their numbers, but they would not secure that influence under the Aided Schools clauses. Under the Denominational system majorities would, especially in small districts, place the minorities under a domination far more intolerable than anything that might be in the province at the present time. If the Roman Catholics got their schools sanctioned, every other denomination would, in self defence, require its own aided school. He would have met them with a secular system, but knew that it would not have their concurrence. To his mind the logical deduction from Mr Macassey's argument was that the system of education should be secular. The question could be beet disposed of by relegating it to the Assembly. The Hon. Dr Menzies considered that the Council should arrive at no decision on the matter, but let it be taken up by the Assembly. He was opposed to denominational education, and would have the Bible used in schools. Those parents who objected to their children reading the Bible, could have them withdrawn during the time allotted for reading it. He moved as an amendment, " That inasmuch as the Colonial G-overnment has undertaken to bring forward a measure to provide for education in the Colony, this Council does not think it expedient

at present to disturb the existing Provincial Ordinance." The Hon. M> M'Lean spoko strongly, and at considerable length, in favor of a national system of education. The Hot,. Mr Hell moved the adjournment of the dehate. The lion. Mr Holmes seconded the 1 motion pro forma, mainly with the view of enabling him to give notice of hia I intention (o move the following amendment at the proper time:— "That this Council recognises the v\A\\. of all classes in the community to participate in the grant for educational purposes, and the Council is of opinion that this eau be secured only by the adoption of a purely national, unsectarian system of education." The motion to adjourn the debate was carried.