OTAGO AND SOUTHLAND UNION BILL.

Southland Times, Issue 1291, 9 August 1870, Page 3

OTAGO AND SOUTHLAND UNION BILL.

(Hansard.) -. Mr Pox, in rising to move the second reading of this Bill, said that no lengthy remarks were necessary on his part, as the whole subject had been before the House in the previous session, and a Bill i "had been carried by a large majority in that branch of the Legislature, as a permissive measure, to enable the two Provinces to be reunited, but it had been rejected by the Legislative Council on the ground that the Provinces had not fceen consulted. During the recess, a most business-like course had been punned by the Government And people of the two Provinces; Commissioners were appointed by the respective Governmeats, who met at Invercargill, and arranged the terms upon which the two J¥bvinces were to be reunited. The Bill --of-whichr-fee- now proposed the second reading only ■ provided for the . effectual legislative -carrying out of those terms, : and was almost entirely of a technical character. It contained nothing whatever •*■ rbeyondthedry legal details necessary for the union of the Provinces. As to the ii merits of this act of reunion, that was a question which he thought he need not .-- dwell upon, as it had already been so fully discussed in the previous session, but no doubt there would be some variety of opinions in the minds of the people of . South upon the subject, and probably the House would hear expression given to those opinions before the debate closed. —^e'queation was one that did not affect .«; the Colony at large, excepting in so far as r^the reunion of the Provinces would ": tend, to promote the prosperity of all. -The crippled state of Southland in y . ; respect to revenue and general progress 'of late years was known to all, as also <-■ how .deeply indebted it had become to the circumstances •'■ whicnappeared .to render it almost .impossible that it should retrieve its ' position for many years to come. On the other hand, Otago had been suffering — from-the condition of Southland, because it was impossible for the Otago Govern- ■ ment;~to extend its operations to any great distance to the south, into what it looked upon as a foreign, if not almost a hostile, country. If, however, this union were effected, large public works would "*~«fidoubT»dly"in,'a few years be carried out; and the result would be the develop- ■ iment " of the resources of the whole * SBOuthern part of the Colony. That was the view he took of the matter, and was also the view which he believed all those who wished for this reunion also took. He did not believe that there had been *any ardent wooing on either side, or any ; rushing inifeo one another's arms, but the f 'whole' affair had been conducted in the ■most practical and business-like manner. 8o very strong.had been the conviction -expressed by the House last session, that _he need do nothing more now than move 'the second reading, and commit the Bill *to the consideration of the House. Mr Webster felt very timid indeed in standing up to advocate a cause which he •aw was one not much favored by the great people of the House, and in standing up for the individuality of a Province which he was sorry to see, from the facetious remarks of one honorable member and .the solemn manner of another, had generally been received as one not worthy of much attention. The subject appeared to be one of joke or pity according to the various frames of mind of honorable members who spoke upon it. He was at a loss to understand upon what principle the present Government, representing, as he believed, the provincialists, could advocate the annihilation of one of the Provinces by a kind of telescopic insertion into another Province — one tube being run into the other for the purpose of giving to that other greater strength and substance. If the policy of the Government was one of provincialism — which he understood to be a policy of encouraging local government and administration — that policy was not recognizable in the action now taken by them through the Premier. If the policy of the Government was that known as " colonial," he was at a still greater loss to understand how they could bring forward and support such a measure as the g>reseGt4 for how could the colonial party reconcile itself to the absorption of a emails community-— which, it might be admitted, was or had been in temporary finaucial, difficulties— -by a larger comminjtty? He would show, however, that Southland was now, if the matter was properly regarded, one of the most flourishing communities in New Zealand. He j cbul^npt understand how a colonial party . &cTvernment-— if the Government were sucfc— coold destroy a weak Province only i to, add to a strong one such strength as would' make it formidable to the rest of thaJColonj. He firmly believed provincial i^Jitutionf to be an evil; and without '

at all derogating from the credit due to Otago for the manner in which it had managed its affairs, he still held that it was not good policy, in the interests of the Colony, to do what it was proposed by this Bill should be done. If Otago and Southland were united, the united Province would never be got rid of except upon such terms as Otago chose to dictate. He called upon those members who had provincial proclivities— and equally upon those whose proclivities were colonial — to refuse to assent to the Bill now before the House. He would ask honorable members to remember that it was not long since the district which was now Southland cried aloud, and most piteously, against the manner in which it had been treated by the Provincial Government of Otago ; and_ the same spirit would no doubt be in existence in a year or so if this Bill were passed. It was not to be expected that a distant locality, with different interests, laws, and desires, would work harmoniously with a stronger locality. The directing power would be from the larger place, and the smaller place must feel oppressed. This fact was recognised, because, while it was proposed to do away with the name ; of Southland, it was also proposed to leave everything in the way of management separate, as though the two Provinces continued to exist. As the matter had been put before the House by the Premier, it amounted to this :t— " South land has been and is in financial difficulties; therefore it shall be annihilated, by being joined to the, richer province of Otago." He did not mean to say that the financial policy of the Government was a bad one, because to a very large extent he approved of it ; but he did say that it came with a very ill grace from a Government -bold: in their financial scheme almost to temerity, to be so weak, when it suited their purpose, as to say that because aProvince had gone into debt to the amount of £25,000, in attempting to do a great work out of its yearly income, that Province ought to be annihilated. He was not about to apeak disrespectfully of Otago. Although he had now nothing to do with that Province, yet ten years ago, before any gold field was discovered* he introduced a very large amount of capital into Otago, and had to do with one of the out-stations in that Province. He was pleased that Otago should have continued to work out its career properly and well. It had been said to him by members, in a pitying tone, to which he strongly objected — for he did not desire pity or charity from anybody, whether for ■ himself or for Southland— that Otago j would receive Southland back as a ! prodigal son, and. would treat it kindly. It appeared to him that the character of a greedy father would better suit Otago — one who fancied that his son had still a little inheritance left, which it would be well to get back, and to keep in thefamily. The Premier, as the mouthpiece of this policy of provincial annihilation, urged nothing but the wretched £25,000 debt of Southland. Why should not the same argument be applied in favor of Hawke's Bay absorbing Wellington, seeing that Wellington was in debt for the construction of the Wanganui Bridge ? He was about to state some figures to the House, and he was permitted to state that, with the consent of the Treasurer, he had gone through those figures with the AssistantTreasurer, and that they were absolutely correct in round numbers. The Government had proposed to undertake railway works for the Colony, to such an extent as made him blush for the Government when the wretched £25,000 was mentioned. What were the facts? During the last eighteen months the little Province of Southland had undertaken works involving an expenditure of £60,000 or £70,000. That was done under the sanction and encouragement of the General Government, which Govern-?-ment must have known the facts from reports supplied by Committees of the House, and which were accurate to the last degree. The Southland Government were encouraged to undertake those works out of its revenue, with the aid of such other means as it had at its disposal ; and the object of the works was to carry out, for Southland, the identical 'policy which the Colonial Treasurer proposed to carry out for the Colony. Southland completed railway works that had been standing idle for six years, and which had, to a great extent, gone to ruin through not being earlier completed. The only assistance given by the General Government towards the completion of those works, was the permission that 20,000 acres of land should be appropriated for their completion ; the whole amount of the plant, the freight, and other expenses, being attempted to be met out of the ordinary revenue of the Province. Was it not absurd to suppose that a Province with a revenue known to be only £35,000 a year, could undertake such works, and not get into debt with respect to them ? He did not know whether the encouragement was given by the present Government or by their predecessors; but that encouragement was given by. the General Government of the Colony at a time when the members of that Government must have known as certainly what would be the results, as members of the House now knew what those results had been. The Province of Southland was not to be reproached with the expenditure that had been incurred. Works that cost £400,000 had been completed by an additional expenditure of £60,000 or £70,000 ; and now that Province was told, as a punishment, " You have got into debt, and we will wipe you out of existence in consequence." He could hardly comprehend the motives which dictated the proposal. Could it be, as suggested, a sop to the larger Provinces. He for one, as a member of the community of Southland, objected most strongly to be united to their parent. They were of that age when separate establishments were necessary. It was a most emasculating process for any community to be sent back to pupilage after it had made an effort at

separate existence. It was wrong that it should be so as long as provincial institutions existed, and he objected to it in every sense, and principally in a financial sense. That was rather a^ bold assertion, but, in confirmation of it, he would let the House know exactly, the position of the affairs of the Province of Southland. Its revenue, according to last year's returns — a year of deep, depression, when there were none of the works and industries being carried ; on that at present existed there— w* as follows .— Consolid^ted. revenue, £16j05 4 ; pastoarl rents, £7,774 ; miscellaneous revenue; £5,494; average taken from the last four years' land sales, £32,325 ; making altogether a revenue of £61,617. The expenditure, according to the Government returns, was — General Government charges,. £8,06 L ; interest and other charges on loans, £26,970; s provincial appropriations as per last year's estimates; £13,000 ; making atdtal expenditure of £48,000 as against: a revenue of £61,000. That left a balcean clear to the ordinary revenue of the Province of £13,000 odd. That did tot include any yield from that large work which had lately been undertaken, and the construction of which had been the cause of the present financial difficulty. He had no hesitation in saying that .theline of railway as.it now. existed could be let at something like £5,000 a year^ the lessee keeping the railway in repair, returning it in perfectly good order j at the end of the lease. Taking that into account, it would make the ordinary revenue amount to £18,500, which, with the advantage gained by the proposed capitation grant, would nearly bring the revenue up to £20,000 & year .clear. He had no Hesitation 'in saying, that, in the Province of Southland at the present moment, there wa3, in proportion to its size and population, a larger area of good and purchasable ground in the possession of the Province . than there was in any other Province. He was not afraid of joining with Otago, except that he believed that it would be a bad thing for the country generally.. They had interests grown ; v]* unHer different laws which had been enacted during their separation, which would render it^ very difficult indeed to prevent a conflict of interests in a union with Otago. EL. feeling and disturbances would grow up between them. Southland had land laws which suited the population in every way ; they had no disputes, no ill-will, and they would be joining a Province seething with discontent of aU kind, and would inevitably be crushed in the struggle. It seemed hard that himself and others similarly situated .should have to travel from 150 to 200 miles to get some slow j ustice done them in Dunedin. Coming up strangers as they would do, it was not to be expected that they, would receive that attention which they could enforce when the law was administered under their own eyes. He thought that any honorable member who would go carefully and honestly into the accounts of the Province of Southland, would be able to deny, as distinctly and entirely as he did, the imputations cast upon that Province by the Premier. The Province of Southland was not in financial difficulties in the slightest degree any more than any other Province was, or would be, which undertook any great works without having proper provision for borrowing the money. If the Colonial Treasurer attempted to carry out his railway scheme without firet providing the proper means, _he \vould find himself in exactly the same difficulty as Southlaud was ; and if the Homa Govemmen encouraged tha Colony to enter upont greater works than her means would permit, would it? not be only fair and right that the Colony should say, " You have encouraged us to do these things, and it is only right that you should help us to borrow *he_money." He said, as a member of the Provincial Council of Southland, to the General Government 1 , " You have encouraged us to enter upon large works, and it is only fair that ,^ou should lend us the money and take as security our railway, pay yourself the interest, and hand us back the balance." Where would be the £25,000 in that case ? He >■ appealed to the members of the Government not to smother the Province of Southland. He was no provincialist ; he disliked the whole system, and it was on that ground particularly he appealed to their feelings. The Premier had Btated that it was the universal desire of the two Provinces to unite. He was sorry" again to disagree with the honorable member. Mr Fox.— l did not say it waa the universal desire. ; I said it was the wish of both Provincial Councils. Mr "Webster.— Well, it had been decided by both Provincial Councils that it was desirable that the Provinces should unite, but he begged to inform the Premier and the House thatithadnot been so decided by the majority of the people of both Provinces. The majority of the Provincial Council of Southland voted for it, but the majority of^ the people of that Province voted against it. The smaller constituencies returned a certain number of members to the Council, who voted for the union, but the larger constituencies went dead against it. The honorable member for Inyercargill, who fills the office of Superintendent of Southland, stood for a seat in the Council. At a single day's notice, in consequence of some rather indiscreet remarks of his, without canvassing ; or anything of that »ort, he (Mr Webster) went down and opposed him, and the honorable member, although he peared to be the chosen of the people, and had been asked to stand, was only returned for the Bluff by a majority of one vote. Therefore there was not a very great majority in favor of the union in that constituency. He was desirous of showing the great difference of feeling | which existed amongst the people of Southland as regarded the union with Otago. He had stood for the Bluff, but had not been returned. The following day he was asked to stand, for another

constituency, and was within five votes of the top of the poll. Not finding success there, his enthusiastic friends put him up again the following day in another place,, and he was again unsuccessful by a small minority. He wished to point out that the majorities of those elected, and who were in favor of the union, were not very large. The same night that he returned home after the last effort, a messenger arrived saying that the election for Invercar'gill was coming off, and that he must stand there. He was not a public speaker, and it was not until the occurrence of the events he had alluded to that he had taken part in local politics. At the meeting at Invereargill, which he attended on hearing that the theatre had been taken and the town placarded, announcing that it was to come off,, there were three on one side — -that on which he was — and one on the other, who was for union. The three who were against the union were put in by a large majority ; one of the others had been elected agreeably to the desire of those who were with him, because it was stated that it would be unfair not to return at least one to represent those in favor of the union. He had appealed to four constituencies, and wherever he had been rejected it had been by a very small majority. The House would therefore see that there was ! riot, as had been stated, a large majority lin favor of the union. The resolution for the union had been carried by only five votes in the Council— eleven against six. Mr Reynolds. — And the Speaker. \ I Mr "Webster was not aware- that the Speaker voted. It was a matter, however, of very little consequence. Those who were in favor of the union were returned by 5 outlying, districts,- while the more important ' constituencies were dead against it. In the small towns an impression prevailed that, in the event of a union, Otago would spend £100,000 in the locality. If there were real foundation for the rumor, and if Otago consented to do, so, he for one would have no objection to the union, but he 'had his doubts; about anything of the kind being done. • The only effect of the union would be that they would have, their own money spent in their locality if they could get it. "While they had; "their money they could spend it themselves, and though their government had not been carried on perhaps very creditably, he still preferred it to another and a distant local government. For the several reasons he had advanced he would vote against the union of the Provinces. He wished every, honorable member to consider well whether they intended to perpetuate provincialism. '^If they voted for the Bill before them, they would certainly assist in continuing the system. These Provinces were not the only ones which had .their differences, and they should not be allowed* #o weigh witH those who might have provincial proclivities. He would say to the Government, as regarded the £25,000, take the railway, and having deducted their interest, hand back the balance. Were they to allow the institutions . of the country to be broken up merely at the suggestion of a few members ? He would point out that a great many difficulties were likely to arise in the administration if the proposed union were carried out. The land laws of these Provinces totally differed. A great many laws bearing on land had been enacted which were completely at variance. There would be a difficulty in. carrying out these laws, and of course, the tendency would be that the doctrines and nostrums of the larger Province would be applied to the smaller. He did not speak in anger ; he * spoke rather in sorrow. He would protest on the part of the Province — now and when a question of much more importance came before the House; — against receiving charities in any shape or form. He might state that one of his colleagues had deserted him in the matter, and had gone over to the enemy. His reasons for doing so were that he was altogether opposed to provincialism, and bore such abhorrence to it that he would vote for even getting it removed one hundred miles away. He would conclude by expressing a hope that honorable members would not give their vote for the Bill without giving it fair and proper consideration. To he continued.