THE RE-UNION DEBATE.

Southland Times, Issue 1181, 13 December 1869, Page 3

THE RE-UNION DEBATE.

* (Continued from last issue) MONDAY, 29th NOVEMBER. Mr MaCDOXALD resumed the debate on this subject. It had alrea ly occupied the House so long, he said, and the question had been so well ventilated, thit his remarks would be brief. Nothing had been adduced on the part of their opponents to throw any new light on it, since the question was first brought before the public. Oq the other hand, much had been abandoned by them. When the elections were going on, reasons were brought forward which were now aba ndoned, such as the cry of political independence, loss of liberty, and other phrases which were all expressed by the American word, " bunkum." Some of the old arguments about being an outlying district had been repeated, but he would | make little reference to them. In considering the question, it was necessary to face the difficulty o( the position, and conceal nothing of the actual facts. It was admitted that the province was in an embarrassed position, in difficulty in fact, and the difference between the two p- rfcies in the Council was, that one considered that difficulty but temporary, wbile the other considered it the reverse. That was the difference existing between the gentlemen on the other side of the House and his party ; but he thought if members would examine the statistics for the last few years, consider the condition of the province now, and the money which had beea received, they would agree with him that the difficulty was not of a temporary nature. It had been slated that provincial governments were formed for the purpose of colonising, and if so, then Southland had failed, and he would give some reasons why he arrived at that conclusion. It had been laid down as almost an axiom that the application of the money received for land sales should be on reproductive purposes, such as immigration, public works, and opening up the country. It was by this judicious expenditure of the capital of the province that a fresh power for the production of revenue muat arise. Population added to the country, the Customs and other revenues were increased. He thought that if the statistics of the last few years were examined, it would be seen that the ordinary revenue had decreased. The proi esds from the sale of land had been very considerable, yet there had been no adequate return in the shape of revenue. A large outlay had been made, yet the population had not increased, and the ordinary revenue had been decreasing year by year. Take the year 1866, and they found the ordinary revenue available for provincial purposes was £18,000, in 1868 it was only £13,000, and if hon. members would refer to the Customs revenue for the last nine months, the decrease would be still more apparent. It had been already stated that the present ordinary revenue of the ' province was insufficient to meet the necessary expenditure for carrying on the Government. The question then was, was there any probability of an increase ? Because, if there was no probability of an increase, clearly it was an unsouud Bt<ite of things for the proviice to be living on its capital — carrying ou Groverament by having recourse to the sale of its land. He submitted that the only Way to increase the revenue was to have population, which there was great improbability of the province getting, because people arriving here, and finding it deeply in debt, they would nob settle. Tbere would be uncertainty as to having the means of reaching the desired land, and the prospect of taxation would also deter them. The House then was brought face to face with this positijn — the province had not increased its revenue ; it was unable to meet its expenditure for ordinary Government, and had therefore abdicated its functioas as a Groverntnent. Hon. members on the other side might say the land revenue would increase. He did not think so, because it had risen during the last few years from exceptional circumstances, which hon. members on the other side were well aware of. There was therefore little to hope for under this head, and no other scheme had been presented by which those difficulties could be overcome. On his side of the House re-union appeared to be the only step to overcome the embarrassment. It would have the immediate result of L ssening the pressure of the debt, as ifc would be taken by Otago, and bearing on two provinces, it would be very materially different from being all borne by one. The expectation of an increase of population in the event of re-union was not unreasonable ; it had been, in fact, admitted by Dr Menzies, who said that probably immigration would follow. Dr Menzies — Not exactly. I did not expect any save when vessels came to the Bluff. Mr Macdonald, continuing, did not doubt but that the lands of Southland would be in the same way as those of Otago — open to selection to the same persons now in that province. That alone would secure an increase of population. The opinion on hia side of the House was that the terms proposed were extremely liberal, and it would be for the advantage of this province that it should take them. No one who read through those terras but would come to the conclusion that there were three material points guaranteed, — the maintenance of our present centre, Invercargill — the enlarged boundaries of that centre — and a fair representation. If this district was not only the natural, but the legal centre of a large area, it must be a great advantage. The objections against the terms were in many cases inconsistent— Dr Menzies averring they were not so liberal as those embodied in the Permissive Bill, and Mr Lumsden, on the other hand, stating that they were too liberal to be true. He understood that when Mr Xuxnsden said they" were boo liberal, he imagined they were thrown out as a bait. He (Mr Macdonald) wished the impression retained by that gentleman that

he wns " too old a bird to be caught by chaff"," but it should be remembered that if these terms were not agreed to, re-union did not lake place. As to the enlarged boundaries, Otago was committed to them. But it was said, if the principle was admitted, why not give the enlarged boundaries now ? There were two reasons against that, as part of Otago she would not object if the large tract was attached to this district as its natural centre ; but as a part of Southland they would natural!/ object. Or, was it reasonable to suppose that the settlers in the district would willingly atfc.ich themselves to a province so deep in debt? A great deal of capital had been made of the the separate account which was proposed to be kept. After explaining why it was necessary this should be, he said ih it if it ' had been left out, other objections wou'd have been found. Mr Lurasden hid made ■ great capital of the fact that if re-unim j took place, they would have only one in ! six in the representation, but they would also have a voice in the appropriation of a revenue over six times larger than th it of Southland, so that they would be very much the gainers. The next objection was that this would be an outlying district. Why, the largest portion oi' Otago consisted of nine districts, and any oue who went therd, as he had done, would find that all these districts received a large share of the revenue. It had been said these outlying districts did not always get in proportion to what they had raised — why, so long as there wants did not require it, why should they get it ? A reference had been made to Oamaru, but no evidence had been adduced that the wants of that district had not been met. The hon. member for Waiau complained that no proper effort I had been made to represent the position of tlie province to the General Government. He (Mr Macdonald) held in his hand copy of the correspondence between Dr Menzies on behalf of the Superintendent, so recently as September last, on this question. The letter was of great length, but the contents were such as to satisfy any one that there was no hope in the General Government. Mr M'JsTeill would make a few remarks on the position of the Government in reference to the question now under discussion. He thought the Government had not shown a due sense of its responsibility in the carrying forward of the motion introduced by them- They had expressed no regret at the haste with which they had expected that Council to conclude upon the question. They had assumed that re-union was the only course, and yet all the arguments they had brought forward had failed to bring conviction to his mind. He (Mr M'N.) contested the subject had not been fully or fairly discussed. He wished to have it gone into in all its bearings, and with this view, in concert with other members, he had supported a motion for a committee to obtain such information, from reliable sources, as would enable them to come to a decision. That committee had been refused, and the source whence they were to derive all the information on which their conclusion was to be based, was that of the estimates, which the Government had laid on the table. These, he need hardly say, were not all that they wanted, and although they might satisfy some, they could at best be designated as ex parte, and would hardly ba received as satisfactory by the public. The refusal of the committee was not just* to the province, to whom a full investigation was due. They were told the granting of that committee would be but waste of time. He thought it unwise on the part of the Government to have opposed it. Mr Calder, in accounting for the change which had taken place in his own views, had told the Council that i his consideration of the question of reunion had extended over a period of — he (Mr M'N.) thought — six months. Mr Caxdrb here explained that the time referred to by the speaker was but about two months and a half. Mr M'Neill— lf, then, Mr Calder took over two months to make up his I own mind^ how could he expect hon. members to make up theirs so rapidly as they had been asked to do — especially in the absence of data such as the com. i mittee would have supplied. He (Mr i M'Neill) said that, as he had been denied [ the opportunity of looking at the subject , in a strictly provincial point of view, he must treat it as a colonial question. He strongly objected to the increase of power which the proposal, if carried out, would give to Otago, He had elsewhere opportunities of judging of the ill effects of the preponderating influence of Otago in the Assembly, especially when in conjunction with Auckland ; and had no hesitation in asserting that colonial government could not be satisfactorily carried on if the influence of Otago were to be increased. It had been asserted that the elections to the Assembly would be uuinfluenced by the Government, but this was a fallacy, and it might be depended upon that whatever Otago could do, she would. The amendment proposing the postponement of the debate until after the meeting of the Otagau Council, had been rejected on the ground of discourtesy to Otago. He did not take this view. Otago had made an offer to appoint commissioners, who were to meet commissioners assembling here. This had been done, and a report had been drawn up, embracing certain conditions. We are asked to accept these conditions, | while the fact is that as yet Otago herself has not accepted them ; and we are in the 1 position that we have nothing tangible before us. The terms embodied in those conditions may never be offered. The Government had systematically opposed the course by which a calm deliberation on the whole matter could have been secured, and throughout appeared to have utterly ignored responsibility. They seemed to have been afraid lest enquiry should bring out anything unfavorable to their own view and action in the matter. , He did not wish for a moment to deny that they firmly believed all they had

stated. The document furnished by them might be in every figure true, but it was not what the Council needed. He (Mr M'N.) would make a final effort to have the matter dealt fairly with, and not hastily. He proposed to deal with the motion in a committee of the whole House. He would have the matter so represented to the Otagan Council that that body should have no doubt as to our interpretation of the report. Members of this Council had given their own interpretation, but Otago might not construe them ia this way, and to prevent the possibility of any misconstruction, he would more as an amendment, "that the resolutions be considered seriatim iv a committee of the whole Council." Mr BiLir seconded the amendment. Mr Calder would offer no objection. : The amendment was carried on the < I voices, and the House then went into • . com.nittee. ,