THE REUNION DEBATE.

Southland Times, Issue 1175, 3 December 1869, Page 3

THE REUNION DEBATE.

(jContinued from last issue.)

Mr .Tohttstott resumed the debate. The hon. member said that since the idea was first mooted, it had passed through all the stages of every great movement. He had opposed it when it was first proposed by Mr Holmes ; and r when brought by himself before the Council a second time, it had been opposed by others. Now, he could show by figures, the necessity for the proposed step ; at all events, that it was necessary to have an alteration from the present state of things. Referring to parliamentary papers, he found that the iuteresfc and sinking fund on our proportion of the consolidated debt amounted to £26,550 ; the provincial expenditure could not be brought under ,£15,000. If our outstanding liabilities were capitalised, the total annual charges would amount to ; so, to be useful as a province, we must have £50,000 per anuuni. Our share of the customs revenue, after paying General Government officers, provincially charged, according to the Colonial Treasurer's esti mate, amounts to .£4420 ; pastoral rents, .£7500 ; municipal revenue, =£4152 ; total, £16,072, exclusive of land revenue, and that could only be guessed at. He maintained that the figures shewed very clearly there was a necessity for an alteration, and he considered that the only real remedy was re-union. If, however, it could be shown that it would in any way increase the population or the wealth of the country, then its opponents had not an inch of ground to stand on. Referring to clause 9 of the Commissioners' Report (fixing the number of representatives in the united Council), he asked if anyone could believe that the proportion was not a fair one. Dr Menzies had stated that the empowering of delegates on either side was unconstitutional and illegal ; he (Mr Johnston) did not think so, though iv Otago they were appointed by the Superintendent, and in Southland by the Council, because the Superintendent " hated re-union as he hated the devil." After some remarks on how the debt of Southland had been contracted, he pointed out that certain statements of Dr Menzies' on emigration and immigration were not correct, as they only applied to arrivals and departures by sea, whereas large numbers had gone from the province overland. The population of the province was, in Mr Johnston's opinion, much less than 7000. The condition in the Eeport that the name of Southland be blotted out, he thought a good one. It was known all over the colonies as the province most deeply in debt, and its condition was known even in America, as he showed by quoting from a United States newspaper. They were blamed, he said, for speaking the truth — for crying " stinking fish " — but these were facts that could not be concealed, and there was no use in trying to blink their condition. Dr Menzies had said that clause 8 (assimilating the laws) was a curious one. In his (Mr Johnston's) opinion, it was not so curious as the remarks the honorable member had made on it. The Commissioners were perfectly aware that they had no power to deal injuriously with existing rights, but they took credit for recommending that provision be made for just claims (that would not come under the jurisdiction of the common law) and legal rights, without putting the holders of them to the trouble and expense of appealing to common law. In referring to the honorable member's remark that the two codes of land laws would clash, he pointed out that we had virtually two codes of laws, viz., the Hundreds system in one portion of the province, and free selection in the other, the only difference being in detail, which the Board could easily remedy. Dr Menzies had said that any outlay that produced rapid and easy communication could not be ruinous ; but any system that produced only 15s worth of work for 20s worth of land must be ruinous. Dr Menzies had said that the report was vague, and amounting only to good will and good wishes on the part of the Commissioners ; but the people of Southland looked upon it as something more. It was absurd to exnect them to clothe the report in technical language, and it was just possible that it might form the heads of a Bill to pass the Legislative Council, and become the law of the land. In speaking of the advantages that Otago would gain, Dr Menzies had said, two years ago, Southland's estate was valued at one million sterling. It having been worth that sum two years ago, it does not follow that it is worth so much now. The exchange value of land depends on the value of money — in point of fact, it is money that has risen in value, instead of property having fallen ; but if the honorable member means that by the sale of so much of our landed estate the value of the rest has been enhanced, I believe that idea to be utterly fallacious. I have read of merchants destroying a part of their cargo to enhance the value of the rest, but land that is sold is not destroyed — it cannot be prevented from competing with Crown lands. Strictly speaking, Government, when they sell land, buy money. The price of money depends on the demand and supply. It is absurd to suppose that agricultural land 50 miles inland will sell freely when improved properties within a few miles of town can be bought for 20 per cent, less than the improvements on them cost — bearing in mind that the latter is worth twenty times as much as the former, supposing them both to produce 40 bushels of oats per acre. So much is the value of money risen within the last four years that agricultural land has no leasing value, and only a nominal exchange value. The rent of farms that are let consists only of a small per-centage on the cost of the improvements ; so it must be evident that the value of agricultural land does not rise in proportion to the quantity of land alienated from the Crown, but in proportion to the quantity cultivated. He then observed that he and Dr Men-

] zies were, after all, fighting for the same thing— extension of the boundary of Southland ; only he wished to get it by joining at once with Otago, while Dr Menziea would have it by force from that province, and in doing so raise up an ill feeling which would not be allayed during the present generation. Passing Mr Lumsden's address to the electors under review, he found that he considered the advocates of re-union were blind because they did not see things in the same light as he saw them, and cowards for not stirring to restore prosperity to the country in the way he wished to bring it about. Statements in Mr Lumsden's address were a libel on the advocates of re union and the institution of Otago. Any member making such statements must either be without information on the subject, or presume largely on the supposed ignorance of others. Self-government meant simply i | that we are to manage our own affairs ; We huve not had the uiauageraent of our | affairs ; we could not entertain any project of utility without appealing to the General Government. He would defy the honorable members who had rushed so bravely to the front to stem the re-union tide to move one single step to raise the province from her prostrate position, without an appeal to the General Government. Otago had perfect liberty to manage her affairs for her own interest. In addition to fair representation in the General Assembly, she had the Provincial Council municipalities, road boards, education board, and school committees — all chosen by the electors and ratepayers ; and he would like Mr Lumsden to point out any other country that enjoyed the privilege of local government to the same extent. He also promised to deal with our financial situation. He seems, however, to have thought better of it ; for, in the next breath, he states it would be presumption in him to attempt to show how our pressing liabilities could be met — a nice way of getting over such a tremendous rasper. He would not take up the time of the Council by following thehon. member through the rest of his address ; and he would only add that he entirely differed with the conclusion that the hon. member arrived at, that the new item — forty miles of railway, coupled with" our own "efforts, and the value of our estate --would provide, to some extent, for the resumption of immigration and district road works. Mr Lumsden did not wish to deal with the criticisms with which hon. members had honored him with, but would notice some other points. Mr Johnston had commenced,, like Mr Calder, by eating up words used on former occasions ; but, though they could do so, the words remained, and as he happened to have them by him, it was perhaps as well to remind them of what they had said. It was quite possible to disavow what had been said 1 efore, but what was formerly freely uttered did not perish— matters of fact still lived. He found that when Mr Johnston brought forward his motion for annexation at a former session, Mr Calder used these words : " The motion would be spurned by the Council, and, if carried, before twelve months were over there would be a call for separation again, &c, &c" Mr Calder, in explanation, remarked that he had stated the previous evening that the information he had received on the occasion referred to was incorrect ; and as to separation again, he must have been misreported, because it was well known he was in favor of a moderate centralism. Mr Lumsden then pi-oceeded to quote certain expressions of Mr Wood, to the effect that in the event of re-union, Southland would soon become a mere outlying district of Otago, and consequently he would not vote for annexation unless our circumstances were desperate. (Hear, hear.) Mr Johnston was next quoted to the same effect. He continued by observing that Mr Calder had charged them with undervaluing their opinions. "Well, he could not but doubt the value of opinions that changed, and possibly the garment which fitted them now might be discarded, and the article worn a few years ago be put on again. Returning to the question at issue, he would confine himself to it as nearly as he could. The present embarrassment of the province was, no doubt, the cause of this cry for re- union. The difficulty had been brought about no doubt by the diversion of a large portion of their cash for completing the Oreti Railway— thus crippling the Government in its operations in other directions — and but for which it would have been in an easy position. But, seeing this was not going to be a permanent depressing influence against them, he thought himself justified in hoping that, with this 40 miles of railway completed, and a fertile tract of country thus opened up, tl c province was in a position to recover without throwing itself into the hands of Otago. Mr Calder seemed totally to misapprehend the action which ariti- unionists took. He seemed to think that they assumed, in opposing annexation, that they were a kind of independent, free state, ready to be absorbed by \ another, much in the same way as Scotlaud at the time of the union. Now, he thought Scotland did right at that time — it was a good move, and if the position of this province had been that of an independent nation, he would say that the best course was to annex with a strong neighboring power. But that was, not their position. They were united with Otago already, in common with the other provinces, and no degradation was felt. Absorption, though, or annexation, was another matter, and he could not come to the conclusion that it was going to alter affairs in this province. If such things as road boards, and other institutions that had been talked of, were to exist at all, they must exist out of their own resources — if they were to be brought into operation, it must be at their expense. Mr Caldee — "Where is the money to come from ?

Mr Lumsden — Where is Otago to find the money ? He admitted that it might be said there was no degradation in the absorption, as they were all part of New Zealand. Indeed he would like to see more Hew Zealand, and provincial institutions entirely swept away — Otago, alike with themselves, divested of provincial powers ; but he did not see how annexation with it was going to promote that. Certainly, as one of the corporate bodies into which New Zealand was divided, they would not lose any national privileges by annexation, but they would lose the municipal ones. That was the backward step he complained of, and notwithstanding what Mr Johnston had said, he was astonished the gentlemen on the other side did not see it in this light. Then, united with Otago, their political influence would be neutralised or lost, because their vote would only have a sixth value. Now, when they considered the peculiar position of Southland geographically, it would be seen that it really had no community of interest with Otago proper. There was, therefore, the greater reason why Southland should maintain her own independent political action, and have the entire management of her own affairs. The Commissioners admitted that by opening up parts of Southland, some parto of Otago would be better met in their requirements, and that necessary works were kept back in these border districts because this province would realise the profit of such industrial pursuits as would be promoted in them. That was admitting advantages this province possessed — something to be gained by Otago. As to the moral and material requirements to which the Commissioners referred, it was admitted that Invercargill was the centre ; and considering this, it was most desirable that that House should maintain their rights and privileges in commanding the affairs of Government within the province. Did anyone suppose that it would be otherwise than for the interest of Otago to effect annexation? [A voice: "Yes."] Well, they were utterly mistaken. The jealousy of Dunedin was so great that it would not allow the development of any industry in this town, and giving cases in point, he drew the natural conclusion that the centre to which merchants drew was the one where they were best served in trade. But,it was said, could they not get the connection carried out, and still maintain possession of their own revenue; or, if Otago got the revenue, was it certain that it would be spent here ? Why, not a penny of it but would be voted by the United Council, and would it not be guided by its own judgment, voting the money just as it pleased. For a few weeks, perhaps months, some consideration might be shewn, but that would soon pass away, and no attempt would afterwards be made to foster any independent effort here. It was our interest to foster independent trade, and not the interest of Otago to encourage it among us. This was why we should keep our own independent priveleges and possessions. Mr Calder seemed now to think that the idea of the preponderating power of Otago was quite a mistake. That gentleman thought differently in February 1864 ; when he expressed himself as being glad that a Bill to give Otago only three additional members was lost in the House of Representatives. He (Mr Lumsden) quite agreed with these remarks, especially as he desired to see those provincial jealousies put a stop to altogether. It was no use though to say that being separate the districts would be all the same as independent ; because it would be found that, if the members from this part of the province voted against the wish of the other Otago members, the Provincial Council would be sure to punish the district very heavily for it. Referring to the question of education, he thought Mr Cald ;r had not much right to complain - he having given so little assistance to it. At the election in 1864, both he and Mr Macdonald expressed their dislike to the then existing Ordinance, and it was allowed to lapse altogether. Yet they found Mr Johnston in favor of the Otago system, though it involved taxation. Mr Johnston— The Otago people nave not been taxed for these last four years. Mr Lumsden — Then in that case the Otago system is the same as our own. Bu^he would remark, Mr Calder had no reason to complain, because it was in his power to remedy it. Another matter was the leasing of the railway, and he (Mr Lumsden) complained of the way in which it had been placed before the Council— it had been made to appear in a much worse position than it really was ; because, if the cost had been dealt with as in other railways, a large amount would have been placed to the capital account, and not to the working eipenses. The loss in 1867 and 1868 had been stated at £4220, or £2110 per annum. He (Mr Lumsden) had been for a short time in the Government, and duriog the time he held oflice, a note was appended to the statement of expenditure on the railway, stating that, as the Government had not a capital account, all charges had been set down to working, and included such charges as repairs and removal of Post Oflice and Telegraph Station, and other "capital" charges, reducing the loss on working to £258 19s 8d — the fair way to represent the matter was to do as a commercial company would, and charge the respective amounts under their separate headings. Mr Kinross seemed to think they should have mouths to eat, and backs to we%r, all the country could produce ; but, in his (Mr Lumsden's) opinion, if they did not export, they could not live — they must export to become rich. No doubt they had a consuming population outside of them ; but would ifc not be better to have them inside, and then they could be producers as well as consumers ? The more exports were encouraged, the more wealthy they would grow ; it was, in fact — next to population — the great object of colonising. Mr Kinross had expressed a great ab--1 horrence of railways ; he (Mr Lumsden)

wondered if that gentleman had come across the fact that at the present time the Superintendent of Otago was about to launch a railway scheme which would cost — where the morieyiwlw to come from was another- question.' 'Probably, if Southland was annexed, they might then get the milch cow which would supply the capital. The Otago Daily Times of November 22 refers to a difference of opinion between His Honor of Ot >go and his advisers :— ".His Honor thinks that the formation of a joint-stock company of seven gentlemen, with a nominal capital of .£400,000 is the most practicable method of securing the immeuiate construction of the railway, while the Executive Council is of opinion that the work should be thrown open to competition in this and .the neighboring colonies." If, then, a joint-stock .company with nominal capital be able to accomplish what His Honor of Otago allots to it, on the same principle 1 we might gee no difficulty! whatever in getting rid of Southland's debt in the same way! In conclusion, he (Mr L.) would say that all the arguments which had been used had failed, to convince him of Southland's inability to manage her own affairs.