THE REUNION DEBATE.

Southland Times, Issue 1174, 1 December 1869, Page 2

THE REUNION DEBATE.

We now commence to fulfil our promise of publishing a full report of this debate, which will be continued until it is completed. Mr C alder. — Mr Speaker, — This Housq is at last brought face to fnce with the main object for which it was brought into existence. 1 may preface the remarks I am about to make by saying that when an individual sra'e-s his opinion for or against a thing — if then he tails to make due allowance for tlie views of his opponent-, he commits a fatal mistake. Such an one has been, in my opinion, made by the opponents of re-union — they have undervalued the opinions and statements of the other side. I may say also that a good deal of abuse has fallen on the heads of the re-unionists, who have been characterised as persons whose views and arguments were entitled to but little attention. Their opponents may yet find themselves grossly deceived in this particular. The most depreciatory expressions have been marie use of by some lion, members — one, for instance, has said that " he held the arguments of the re-unionists in utter contempt — that they were a mere tissue of assertions and nothing more." But, sir, I have heard nothing i'tom the opposition that would bear the leas" insj e -lion. So much has this been the case, that tho*e in favor of re-union have had to remain inactive, and thus we see the <ne party calm, quiet, and selfpossessed — the ot'ier excited, riotous, and given to making statements that will not hold water. Jt is indeed a vain effort — a thrashing of grainlesa straw — to attempt to get am thing tangible out of the opponents of union. One of their stock arguments relates to myself — that eight months ago I expressed views opposed to re-union. Granted that I did so ; it was ( n the spur of the moment — the motion was brought forward hastily on the eve of the formation of a new government — and without sufficient information. Supposing I had then plenty of time to consider, and supposing me to have acted inconsistently— what follows? It does- not. affect the question of re-uni -n. But, sir, I had good reasons to al'er my opinions — I could tiud no hope but in re-union, or the absolute realis ition of the land at whatever price it would fetch in the market. The resolutions I have to move embody the adoption of the Report as a whole— we do not iutend to alter it in any way, for although it is not perfect, the defects are not of a serious nature. There may be a little extra verbiage, and some repetitions, but there is nothing contrary to the best interests of the province, if ; the terms therein contained are accepted. i do no 1 " intend at this time to enter on an analysis, but simply sny that I think, wiihin its four corners, the Eeport compiises conditions of a just nature to both provinces. We have no wish to press the question to a hasty iss-ue, but des'ie to give hon. members plenty of time to inform themselves fully as to the pos tion of the province, aud verify the statements of the Government. Of course, if it can be found that anything has been incorrectly described, it will tell by so much against re-union. For myself, I cannot but take this view — our position is a serious one, affording the gravest reasons for anxiety. At auy moment the most important services of the province might cease to exist for want of funds. Therefore, I say, that a serious responsibility lies at the door of those gentlemen wbo opposed the passage of the Permissive Bdi. If it had been passed we might now be in a pot-ition to say, " here is a mode of relicf — htre is a source whence to derive funds to carry on the government of the distrirt." 1 s.\y that if anything untuward happens— if disaster prevails between this time and the 1 ext meeting of the General Assembly, 1 hold that they will be responsible. Sir, in opposing that bill in the Upper House, hon. members used certain arguments to .•iL-complish their purpose that seine 1 .sa.isfi.cfory to the Legislative Council, but that, 1 fear, if u>ed here, would fail to satisfy more than two or three members of this House. The Hon. Dr Menzies sal I—X1 — X am quoting from Hansard — "lie did not admit that Southland required any other Piovince to iiterpose in order to relieve her from her debt. The large debt she had incurred had been expended ia thj formation of reproductive works, which would bear, at no distant date, the full \-& ] \ie of every sixpence she hid spent upon them. In a few months, about Christina-, a contract which was now in operation, would complete oue line of railway, when she would possess a railway forty miles in extent. He had no doubt th.-.t arrangements could be in.vie whereby that railway could be sold for an amount quite equal to the debt ; but even supposing it did not quite reach that sum, would any one tell him that Southland could not redeem a large portion of the debt ?" This statement that our railways are equ il to our debt was the leading argument of the leveling exponent of the views of those oppose 1 to re-union — that they may be sold or otherwise us d to produce the" result of relieving the province from its difficulties. We are asked .to accept this assumption ; on this meagre idea we are told to rest our hopes. I now come to the question of the right of the people of the two provinces to unite, although it seems to me almost a waste of time t,> combat the opposite opinion. If they had a right to separate on the ex parte statement of people in this district — before the body of the people of Otago I had time to organise machinery to oppose it (the New Provinces Act provided that on the petition of a certain number a district might separate) — surely re-union may be effected by the consent of both. I may -remark in passing that the hugest blunder we ever committed was to effect separation. It meant nothing less than running a race with the province of Otago; and it required but little forebight to tell who would come to the ground. Our race was a brief — I can scarcely say, a happy one. "We spent much money in the construction of cer-

tainly not finished, bub unfinished works, and when all was done, gained nothing. Ota<ro, by the slow process of roadmaking, crept in, took from v-< the trade we had striven for by means of railways, and now she has so surrounded us that, as an hon. member has told us, she can supply the Mat aura with goods to greater advantage" than Invercargill. That hon. member (Dr v:v Menzie-), attributes the fact -to the greater" spirit and energy of the people, but I think it was wiser government. One. great cause of Southland's decline was the too implicit belief in the -D.rst' leader entertained by a majority of "the people. Soon after separation it became evident that although upright and honorable, and of the most gentlemanly bearing, he yet lacked the qualities requisite to success in the undertaking he had entered upon. I say that j he of all men should be the last to hold the arguments of re-unionists in contempt, when in the year ISGi lie had already become completely confused. (Dr Menzies : No.) Who went North for relief at that time? How can he turn round # now to sneer at their weakness, when, with greater command over the resources of the Province— which are now completely tied vp — he failed to extricate it from its difficulties ? I have no desire to go back on the past, but the hon. member in question almost compelled me, and certainly, if he continues to use the same language iv relation to his opponents, I shall have to show by reference to his past career how small his title is to use it. (Dr Menzies : "Do not be restrained by feelings of delicacy from statiug anything that may throw light on the subject.") I hold, I sir, that the hi tory of the past five years has been s'mply that of a series of attempts to maintain' the separate existence that was so much coveted. When the hon. member (Dr Menzies), ceased to govern theprovince, thedebt exceeded the present liabilities, it came near £600,000. The province ought then to have come to the conclusion that it would be imp6ssible !to retain its independence. The Land Act that we have was passed to stave off collapse, but our career since then has not been an independent one. I hold that we should have shown truer independence if we had refused to deal with the difficulties — that to have done- so wonld have been wisdom and not cowardice. , It. would have been the most honorable course. Well, itia now admitted on all hands that the province cannot be continued as it now stands— that with some- £2000 per month going on for interest— with public unpaid, and debt accumulating, it must somehow come to an end. Even if urgent public works are undertaken, there is only the land to pay for them:' "Note" the effect of this. VVe first of all only obtain about half the value of the land in work, and thus sacrifice the public estate. If that were all — if settlement were secured — it would not be of so much importance ; but actually settlement ia driven buck, because contractors who receive payment in land will not. seek small buyers. I say that illegitimate means are put in operation to dispose of the land — that it is sold a.fc less than its market value — that certain arrangements are put in force to secure distant buyers. It matters little that they get no good by these means. They will see that for themselves by-and-bye. The effect is to lock' up the lands of the province, and stop legitimate land sales.; consequently there will be no land revenue. I have, on a previous occasion, stated the effect of giviug land in payment for public works j how that, in four months, less than ,£I2OO had been received as land revenue. There is another scheme to relieve the province. It was mooted" by Ino less an authority than a Colonia) Treasurer under the Stafford Government, who said if we were " hard up," and could not carry on, that we might tax; ourselves. I do not, however, think we need discuss that idea of relief; we are sufficiently taxed already. I allude to the pressure of the debt, which we have [ been told is no tax afc all — that we nave not been subjected to greater pressure than other communities. To make such a statement — having regard to the present debt of. the province, that requires no less a sum than <£34.000 per annum to meet the interest on it, and the cost of General Government services provincially charged, before one periny can be touched for improvements — is simply absurd. The direct effect of this pressure is that no roads can be considered, which, in some districts, amounts to stoppage of cultivation and other works — probably the worst form of taxation. We hay then, the appeal to the General Government. It was .applied to last session, but no satisfactory reply was received, or we should have heard of it. - In March last, however, Mr StaffoFti--point blank refused to entertain the idea of rendering further assistance. Subsequently, Mr Fox, and the next Colonial Treasurer (whatever value may be attached to their statements ; not much, I know, in the minds of some people) — said we must sell the land or re-unite with Otago. The Assembly closed with nothing beyondthis, although our inability/ to carry on without assistance was patent to all within the province. The reason for not relieving us, I did not divine at first ; my present information leads me to believe that it was due to the constant reiteration of the " glorious future and vast resources of the province" that blinded the Assembly to the fact of our immediate and overwhelming necessities — I have no other hypothesis. I believe an hon. member (Dr Menzies) has had some correspondence with the Colonial Secretary on behalf of the province ; that he has repeated all about the railway, &c, and that the only reply made was that the province might overdraw its account at the bank for a limited sum. But that resource has been forestalled — that door is shut --the overdraft is already in existence. There is but very little hope in my mind of the General Government doing anything to assist us 1 without prospect of repayment, unless by seizure of the land fund. I repeat we are brought face to face with the difficulty,

out of which, only one 1 , feasible opening — and an honorable one also — presents itself. Ido not iutend tocompare the positions of the two provinces — it hiis been dove often enough already ; but I would , say that, in seeking to unite with j Qtago, we do not go as beggars. We say, "out debt is large, it is true, but:we-have , resources jnore-than equal \o our debt. We do not say the estate is without value, but simply that we cannot utilise it ourselves, while your wealth and enter-^ prise can do so to the benefit offboth." - One strong reason why Otagb desires union is that self-preservation requires it. The extent of her contribution to colonial disbursements is such that if Southland collapsed — if the colony were saddled with the whole of the debt— Ofcago would perforce have to bear the greatest portion r of the burden. It is, therefore, a perfectly legitimate view on her part to take the responsibility before the , resources are altogether frittered away. The chief grounds of objection. : to reunion are two — first, . the sacrifice of provincial independence, and, next, what is called with great pomp the " colonial view "of the question. With regard to the first, we have been told that union would be an .act pf political suicide or self-degradatid4i. riistjory b.as been ransacked— Scbtl'dnd,; lreland, the Irish Church, the , privileges and. liberties our fore lathers fought and bled for, have all been drawn upon; for -illustration, although such comparisons are entirely irrelevant, seeing that we are asked to unite, not as separate states, but as districts of the same" colony. The mere statement of our ■ liabilities;^ is worth 50 cartloads of such ar^vimentk. '.Why, Sir, ., one of the leading opponents of, rp-, union..,, has stated that helwAuld cut down our institutions to those of a mere municipality, that we might' "settle bur little quarrels at . home. -Union actually does this., It gives us municipal institutions instead of provincial. In speaking of political de'gradati6lirnSa^7^i^4lP^^ t^^' " clined to think- tha^ X>tagin» are an inferior race — Chinese Hindoos — but they are our equals in intelligence, and our superiors in prosperity; "t% How it can be degradation to receive /rom them the assistance * denied by ttie colony is utterly, incomprehensible /to. me; i'lti imy: opinion it is real_ degradation to remain as we are, not paying bur' iVay. Speaking of losing our libertiesi>y-«e-union, I would recall to the mind of the hop. member for ' Invercargiil ■'- a ■'sta'teriVerit 'once'J made— that in leaving home we left our * liberties behind vs 5 — "Political liberties I .said,",], .and, bad . here to begin to build ' them' up 'anew, * J I " 'hold tha^ we. should not |lo^er any liberties, but really gain' "that position of independence that I r,eedpm ; from mpnef q tary embarrassment gives. As to the " colonial " ; aspect ; of ' the' ''question, divested of the cloud of vwordsy in which it is usually enveloped, X take the meaning to be that OtagOj by union with Southland, would obtaih uudue prepou r derance, and thus that the " balance of power " in the Assembly would be destroyed. I hold,, in opposition to this view, that the same members, r holding the. same views, would be returhed~tnen as now. From a higher authority than r any in this House I am prepared to prove" tbatr tbe~ question— has not~this' ■ bearing. Mr Stafford has said that '• he did not think there was a united provincial interest in the Assembly ;" _. ( a nioat. r conclusive reply to those yhVjtalk of / undue preponderance. This view was supported by Mr Gisborne — perhaps not quite, so high an authority as f tb.e. late. Premier— at all events, showing t ' /that ' i two good referees "were directly pp-. posed to the views of those honorable members who opposed re r union r " colonial " grounds. ; It; was ; only* in' ,' fact, a covert way of opposing; a thing. "; I have already stated that we require „£33,000 op .£34,000 before one penny, is^ available for general purposes. If any- / one can say that we are entitled to look for £40,000 or more of re.enue over a term of years, he will be a bold man. I say that we have no hope at all of being „ able to fulfil the purposes for : which, the, r province was created— the settlement of . an industrious population; nay, I say more, that the province Las \ already abdicated its functians,. and. ceased to perform it 5 ? duties. ■; The first Superintendent (Drftlenzies), in his opening address^ to the Oouncil, said :— " To promote im-. migration is clearly one of the most ira- > portant duties of a Provincial Government, and the Province of Southland especially would be open 1 to" reproach if it neglected its' duty as i a cplpnizing centre. _ a , duty, the . more' effective ful"filment of which, was . one of the Objects, for , which, the newr -provinces were called into existence." * I say we bave ceased to promote "that object, and that it is right the province should cease to exist. By re-union, we should be relieved from "the pressure of / our debt— that it would be spread over a ' larger population. The debt of the united province would' amount to- ■ .£1,250,000, or .£22 per head of the population — taking that of ■*• Otago at : 50,000, and Southland at 7500. L Our - debt at present amounts to ,£6O per head — the interest on tKat is the pressure from which we suffer, n and that renders it impossible to— progress; — The~argument - that re-union would Restore is ■- more assailable, but I believe it would do 3 so without delay— rthat ijb must, cojnmunicate some of that spring and ; energy so apparent in Otago, and of which we are so deficient. AH the benefit^ enjoyed there ' would at" onice flowto us ; their educational institutions • would, extend to us ; thfe province would be benefittedi L and, instead of^being the worst educated, would take its stand with the first on the list. , ,Our present educational system is a disgrace^the teachers are unpaid— their patienoejui^der the circumstances is; a .jwondei r .tp Vpsj~~? state of things that cannot continue without the loss of self-respect by the community as a whole. .< As to immigration^ Otago must promote it, for it is only by this means that she can hope to develop

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our resources and recoup herself. It is not proposed to raise revenue by extra ordinary means, but under the law at present existing — a guarantee that Otago must encourage settlement. There will be, disadvantages no cloubt — there are always two sides to a question ; one of these would be that representation might be impaired, because of the difficulty of finding representatives willing to go so faraway. Another — not so apparent — would be that, in colonial arrangements, Otago might not be able to stand out in every instance for two ports of call. These two evils — the* difficulty oF representation and the possible slight neglect of our main port by Otago, not alwa} r s securing for the Bluff the same advantages as Port Chalmers— do not, in my estimation, countervail the advantages. Although not bearing on this question, I cannot ignore the fact that vast changes are looming in the distance ; that the experience of years shows that the connection of the colonies with the home country is not to be depended on, and that in a reasonable time a confederation of the colonies must take place. I make this reference to a large subject to impress the importance of taking our position with 'a large and powerful province in order to gain those advantages th;ifc, as a struggling and obscure community, we should' not- 'have the slightest chance of gaining for ourselves. Probably, I have already sufficiently wearied the" House, and' will, therefore,' reserve' any further remarks for my reply. .(Applause.) Mr Kinross had been called on, without notice, tp-;secp,ucj the adoption of the report. The subject was a mos 1 : importan.t one ;■: it had been considered so by the representatives of the whole colony in granting a general election. A quest"ioa~o£-this~ nature -should be- heard dispassionately and calmly, and fairly placed before the constituencies ; but he was sorry to say that, during the recent elections, this was not. the case. For, those . opposed to reunion, instead of proposing any :plan for saving the province, had confined themselves to depreciating the men and motives of the re-uniotf party. After characterising certain } langaage -' . used at the town electioii as "colonial bounce," he said that m every constituency there were men who cbaM : ;iiofc"ju73ge~ between "volubility and sense'. tr-— '(" Question.") MrI'KJKBOSs-:- This is_ the question. The question is Mr JEUsstian : It is not the question. Mr "BJiNito'ss: It is. It proved the other party had no arguments. His party* bad- been charged with having, no other ideas save re-union, but, so far as ; he was concerned, he begged; to give that statement his most unqualified., contradiction. He had seriously thought over this question for many .months- prior- to bis election for Invercargill. At that time he saw the province in a desperate state, and thought much over the most feasible plan for its relief. The ideas he formed then he! would state without reserve. Of course there were only the two modes of raising revenue — the Customs duties and fclie land sales; and to aid the lutter, he had drawn up- resolutions, proposing that all land lying idle in the Hundreds should be reduced' to 10s an acre. That - would bring in revenue, and tend to populate the country. In addition, he -asked that all rural lands should be soli on deferred payments to bona-fids settlers — say in ten instalments. At the present time, when land was bought, the settler had to fence in at once, or his cattle would be impounded, so that he had not the means to carry on; whereas, if he paid only 2s 6d an acre, he would have the capital to mnke improvements with. However, the Council was not called together at tb.e time he expected, and in the interim the question of reunion with Otago assumed prominence, so that when the Council met he did not bring those resolutions forward. He thought, however, that his plan would bear comparison with any other offered by those gentlemen who talked so contemptuously of them.

Mr Basstian considered it unfair to refer to anything said during the elections. Besides, when the hon. member talked of being attacked by people, he should name them.

Mr Kinross had done so. He had mentioned Mr Webster; but the hon. member who had spoken need not put on -the cap if ifc did not fit him. l?e---turning to the question, he said they had been called cowards and cravens for forfeiting their independence. They did not,do so. They were forfeiting nothing by re-union. The only difference, was one. of finance, and he would say that the province which was best off in that respect was the most independent. The functipna of Provincial Governments were to colonise the different provinces, and open them up for settlement. Now he maintained the province of Southland was not fulfilling those functions, and in asking another province to perform them, the members of that House were doing their duty to their constituents. He held that their present embarrassed state was brought about by pursuing an entirely wrorig system of colonisation, at least ever since he came into the province. The proper object of the land fund was expenditure for the benefit of the. settlers by the Government, whom he looked on as trustees ; but this had never been done in Southland. The whole revenue had been spent on public works which' only benentted a few. The result of the recent elections proved that the settlers of the Eastern and Western districts knew they had been robbed of the laridjund. That was the reason those districts . had returned re-union men. As a 1 representative of the agricultural interest, he was sorry to say it had not received. the attention which it deserved. After referring to the early history of the province, he laid a great deal of the blame for the unsatisfactory state of matters on one' of the members for Invercargill (Dr Menzies). . He _(Mr Kinross) did not imagine "that . gentleman pursued the coursV he did frbm.motives of self-interest,

I but from mistaken ideas — the result being that there were no funds, and the settlers in the outlying districts could not get justice done them. The Government committed a great mistake in studying the interests of those who distributed wealth in preference to those who made wealth. He was not one who would always run to the General Government. He wished, as he showed by extracts from his address to the electors at different times, that they would rely" on themselves. He had tried measures for reducing our debt and ojsening up the country ; but he had nob been properly supported, and now, when he found they were in a desperate state, the country settlers disheartened, the people leaving the province, he was of opinion, after reading the report of the Commissioners, and seriously thinking over the matter, that re-union was the beat course that could be followed. It appeared that our population was decreasing — how could it be otherwise? What was wanted was a home market. The Australian colonies did not require our products ; indeed, it was impossible to compete with them ; but he expected a home market by re-union with Otaj;o. He had a Guzotte containing a statement of the revenue of Ota^o ; and he found from it that last year upwards of 1 =£157,000 was spent on public works; and he also found that it was fairly distributed ovt-r the province. He con- j eluded that something like that sum would continue to be spent this year. He certainly had heard a complaint from Oamaru that it was not receiving justice, but he only wished that any district in Southland. could show the. same sort of injustice. Jb'cr one thing they had a good road all the way from Dunedin to Oamaru. It had been questioned what guarantee had they that the conditions approved of by the Commissioners would be carried out? He relied on the ground of self-iuterest. . 3t was pretty evident that the Central and fcbe Provincial parties were very equally balanced in the Assembly, and Otago, anxious to support the former, would be bound to do us justice for her own interest. Eeferring to a circular issued during the elections, showing the number- in the Otago Provincial Council for and. against, re-union, be characterised it as a " disgraceful dodge." He was sure that if the terms were agreed on by the House they would receive the favorable consideration of the Otago Council, and also the House of Assembly. They had been told that the questi >n should be viewed, from a colo nial aspect. That might be, but they were sent there to visw it from a provincial one also, and he meant to assert that if the members would do their duty faithfully the province and the whole colony would be prosperous. He then referred to the position of the runholders, showing that it would be improved by re-union, and concluded some general remarks by urging on members the duty of supporting that object as a means of opening up a brilliant future to the country. The motion was then formally put to the House. The Hon. Dr Mevzies said that the addre.-s of the Superintendent gave an official aspect to a paper previously got together in an irregular manuer. The action taken by thele.iderso-'tbe opposite party was a most unconstitutional proceeding, an usurpation of Executive function by t ! .e legislative body without precedent except in cUys of a revolution. It wa3 not only contrary to constitutional procedure, but it was <tlso irreg d.ir, and therefore invalid. He thought it wrong of G ;vernrnent to resist the appointment of a committee of finance ; it was as if they desire.! to suppress information on the subject. It was their duty to give every facility, to put the Council in possession of every information, financial and otherwise. T;iere were many points on which information was required before the question could be decided. He would just allude to some points in Mr Calder's address then, lesl they might be overlooked . before it was too'late. It was the duty of the opposite party to give proofs of the superiority of their position — the onus of proof lay with the re-unionists, who, affirming the proposition, should prove their case, claarly explain everything, and not seek to induce .others to adopt their measures without clear evidence that they were the best. They h:id heard that night of contempt manifested by hi 3 si l " fox ~ tla ~ arguments used by unionists ; if that was so it had been followed by a si nilar display on the part of those who were so loudly deprecating, its vs j . Mr Cal>!cr said that they had. a right to re-unite. That was never disputed, i':'both provinces agreed to it. The same gentleman als > eaid thab Otago people bad had no time to organise much opposition when separation was effected, but this was not the case, as Mr Macandrew, the Superintendent of Otago for the time being, came down to oppose it in March 1800, and the separation was effected in March ISGL In this interval there was certainly ample time to organise any opposition which the opponents of separation might have thought advisable. The hon. member, after apologising for the imperfect notes he h.id of the remarks made then, went into the general aspect of the question. The flow of capital which would come into this part of the country on re-unon being accomplished, was, he said, mere assertion. Capital was not restricted by any political boundaries, and would find its way wherever it could be profitably used in spite of them. Immigration would flow in, no doubt, but he maintained that the conduct of Ota^o two years before separation did not justify the view that this portion of the province would be benefited. The promise was made them that an occasional immigrant ship would come to tliß Bluff, but no immigrants came. It promised now to "subsidise roads and public works, but they would find that beyond perhaps a bonus or two granted in the happy days of the honeymoon, but

liltle, if anything, in that shape would reach hove. Besides, it should be observed that such tilings were merely conrenv.'latid, n>t promised. It was stited i > i the report that tie revenue and expendihire of eu-h d Vri:t would be kept separata fin I di. j tinc", ns a matter of treamrv account. "W"!iy, they wero only justt>ld that as a province they had no revenue — no surplus rjvenue — and _ if that was the cas*, ho.v did re-union better tlieir c -Midi tio:\? They would in the meantime hwJ to p;ivo up entire control of any poss'ble surplus revenue, for it wa* by no means certain that they should n>>t have more revenue than he (Mr Calder) esti-na^cd. Ila (Dr Menzies) would show that for four or five years there had been a mach larger revenue than was anticipated, though he feared little credit was dm to the government- in its administration. Mr j Calder had, he sa ; cl, tried for four years to retrieve the poai ion of the province, and as he had great influence, he (Dr Menzios) could not go f.ir wron^ in imputing misinani^ement to him. He found that in IS'ii tha total debt of the province, inelud'ng that of the Town Board and David's claim, was £o')3,000 ; in 1865 it was £170.0 )0 ; and in ISCSG, ■£■181,007. By the last statement 1-u'd on i the table in the House of Assembly, he j found that the <lc l )t of the province at 30th June was £U2.30). That was all Add to tint the fresh debt of £31,000, and they h.-ul the total debt. £177,000 he made it, with the corrections male byMr Calder. Now, Mr Cal.ler had till them a few days ago that, under his direction., Grovernuvjnt had paid off fro:n this £200/300. Mr Calder observed that he said £180,000. Dr Mexztes asked him how ib came to pass then that the debt to-day was nearly as much as it was five years ago ? Mr Calder — The interest and other items briiifr it up to that amount. Dr M.EXZTES thought it strange that a fresh debt should have been contracted in the face of the large revenue which had been accruing in the meantime; that additional debt was about £1.30,000. In the four-and-a half years, from January, 18G5, to June, 1569, they had a revenue very nearly equal to the amount of the debt ; a revenue made tin. from ordinary, lan 1, and miscellaneous revenues. N"ow, he said, there mus,t have been very gross intstr.anagem^nt in dealing with a large revenue of over £100,000 a-yeir, when in the f ice o p that this large additional debt of about £1.80,000 had been contracted, He did not wonder in the least at those gentlemen who were in the Execute, failing in the management of these su-ns, now feeling that it would be infinitely better to hand over the conduct of them to another community — entrust them with matters they could not manage. Mr Calder had told them that they had been singularly favored by the G-eneral Government all along. He nl-o instanced the first occasion when he (DrMenzies) went North as a precedent and example for asking assistance. It wis nothing of the kind. The main object he went for was to obtain the assent of the Government to a loan, which was disallowed, obfa'n a reconsideration of tbi* decision, and ascertain if in any other shape it could be got. The loan w.is not reconsidered, but the Government d:d give assistance in another way. That was very different from asking assistnn^e on ail occasions. FTo was £lad to fiurl Lhafc his colleague (Mr CaMer) had found the Uenpral Groverament so extremely courteous, although he could remember some \voi\t3 uttered by him not loni; ago which would lead to a different conclusion. He (Mr Calder) said publicly not long ago, in tilking rather contempt u"mly of a proposal made to form a roid or light railway to Woodlands, that the Go'ier'itl Government would not as.-u^t the scheme. He said that he held in his hanl the clearest proof that there was no intention to relas: in our favor the general law unless in the event of re-uniou. So strong were these proofs, Mr Calder siid, " that if Dr Menzies was here he would sac the futility of asking assistance from the General Government." lie (Or "M-nzies) would like to see thos^ proofs, seeing this wa* c mlra licted so sign all v but a few diys afterwards by the agent of the General Government agreeing to proposals for doing this work. He trusted that Mr Calder would now give the Council an opportunity of deciding whether his judgment wa^ sound in stating so or not. After soiqo t'artlaer r.un irks on this point, the non. member sai.l the advocates of re-mvon were in raptures at this report of the Commissioners. His colleague (Mr Calder) never expected such a boundary as that recommend lie contended, however, that the Province would not have been so much embarrassed it" the boundary had been recognised poonor. Was it too late to press for that yet ? Was it too late t i say, " why not give us the boundary we wanted some years ago." Mr Calde"R — They would say" join us." Dr Menzeics, continuing his comments on the report, referred to the two sets of land laws, and anticipated some embarrassment, in their working or assimil ition, a. point which had not escaped the notle s of several writers in Otaco. Mr C.ilder had told them that settlement was beiug held back and obstructed by the two Provinces continuing separate, the inference of course being that it would be promoted by union. Now, in Otigo a contrary opiiron had been expressed, as he (Dr Menzu-s) showed by a lengthy quotation from U recent Olago newspaper. Tne report having settled the point Lhat alliaws except the land laws were to be abolished by the act of union, it went on to say, " Laws to be: as>imiluted by the United Council as soon as possible." Now, if all laws wera to be abolished none remained to be assimilated (except the land laws). Tlie truth was, that the desire for immediate assistance was the main cause why the gentlemen occupying the treasury benches wished for re- union.

Mr Caldeb — No ; it is the pressure of the general dobt.

Dr Mexzies continuing, sai 1 that his colleague had fallen into unither curious b!uudjr, such as would lead men to wonder if h's knowledge of figures was such as might be expected fro-n a ] merchant in town. He had told the public that the Otigo d<-bt was £781,000, but tuat tVv)in this cama to be deducted £to,0:)i) repaid by the sinking fund, d£LOO,OJO invested in harbor and other really productive works, from which returns equal to the amount of interest was .-(erivrvl. leaving a debt of £ f 533,00\ or only dGLG3,'JOJ 'more than this Province owi'd. Nov, the dubt was £7S I ,O")0 as stated, bit the, whole of tne rest of fchid statement of fi zii"es was utterly without found itio'i. Mr Calder, as a commercial !inm, ought to have known better th in ere lit the £45,0)0 as an asse*-, dinini.shing the debt in any way. If he had only looked into it, he would have seen that the money was to be paid into the treasury of the different provinces for appropri ition by the Provincial Council, and thit if there was £LOO,OOO invested in really productive w >rks, the debt still remained — it wis in ni way diminished. But he (Dr M.mzies) had been informed on very go >d authority in Dunedin, that these harbor wo'k-s alone cost a givat deal more than £LO(),OOJ. and it was very doubtful if their effect had not been most mischievous, because the alterations an 1 silting in th'i h \rbor now taking place are suppossd by so ne practical person* to be owing to those operations. That,, however, was not the point. If Mr Calder had said that £200,000 had been invested in tht-si works, he would probably have been nearer the truth — and then there wa* the facb that thesi works were yielding no return afc all. It appeared that the Southland commissioners made a special point of the land district, and he | found that the whole of this country was to be governed by a Crown Land-* Commissioner, as he apprehended, subject to the Otngo Commissioner. But that arrangement would soon fall to the 1 «;rouud, as the auomily of two land Luvs in one district would soon leal to the abolition of one — the old story of " two Kings in Brentford." Judging from the past, he should say that the cost of Government would not be materially lessened by re-union. It would, perhaps, be increased, inasmuch as. the experience of the past has shown in what ratio an outlying district is charged with the cost of Government. On two different occasions he had opportunities to know the view taken by the Otago Government of the cost of districts ; first in this, and more recently in another district. Tne am mnt see ned perfectly enormous ; the cost in an outlying district bein? in every case very much in excess of what the Government could be carried on for on the spot. The Conrnissioners referred t > education, and the success of the Otngo sc'ieme ; surely it wa3 not on that account they should join it. If the community in Southland had appreciated a system very much like that of Otago, and been willing to do what they must do after the unionrate themselves to support the schools — they might have had the sa:ne system in principle ia full operation at this time. Very much the same might be siid in regard to the roads. But hon. members of that Council had scouted the idea of levying rates for roads, and would the same objections urgel before not bj made now? If they were to be taxed at all, clearly it was much more manly to do it for themselves than allow it to be done by Others. deferring to that portion of) the report on iminigrati >n, he expressed an opiuion thab the Council had rather neglected its duty in this respect- -in not attending to its opportunities of assisting the commercial community by carrj r ing on a sysieui of immigration. Such a Btep would most unques L ionably have enabled the merchants here to compete successfully with those of other towns. A kindred subject was the fact of Otago holding back enouragement from her own border districts, knowing that the benefit commercially would be derived by Invercirgill. Could they not take advantage of that hint ? That poition of the country was increasing in population largely, and the supply of its requirements could not be secured by Otago ; but it would be easy for this province, not by road, but by a railway to the Mataura. Touching the colonial aspect of the question in reference to the greater politic, il power which Otago would g.iin by re-u.iion, Mr Calder had quote 1 so:ne remarks mala by Mr SrsifforJ ail'i Mr airborne. lie (pr Menzies) knew very well, about as well as these gent'e-uen, what was the action done in the Mouse of Kepresentatativcs in this matter — the block vote of Auckland long sustained Mr Stafford in office. There w.is no doub*. that some disunion did take place with the Otago members of taut House, and be had occasion to know how, in consequence, certain of its representatives on stepping ashore at Dunedin w.*re hustbd and hooted in the streets. That was one way in wiiich uninimous action was secured in Otago, a way which he trusted would never be seen here. Ota^o would gain by re-union in an >ther way, as she looked forward to absorbing the whole Southern Island. But that was almost impossible. The repulsion between her and Canterbury was so great that there was not the slightest chance of then uniting, and the other provinces had no desire to unite w.th each other, much lesi with her. Tt was recently proposed to unite Marlborough and Nelson. Marlborough (by the way, deeply in debt) knew nothing of this intention on the part of the Government till they learned it by telegraph, and immediately assambling, they sent up by the fh\st mail a memorial against the measure. He did not believe that the union of Southland and Otago would be a step in bringiug about a united Southern Island, except in so far as it increased the power of Otago. It certainly might gaiu a much larger popu^ition, which would add a little to the revenue, and make it rank as possessing the largest settled population — not the largest industrial, for he believed that Auckland at

present held that posiim. Sti'l better, the material wj.ilth in the 1 mdeJ estate which Otig> wo ild get, and the r.iihvivs — Hie litter he held hiving a very, high value, which woul I go on , in 'reasing as s-'ttienvnfc extended and branches from the main line were f <m id — -,h".se assets, the large amount of unsold linJ, valued some two years ago at more thai a million sterling, exclusive of Stewart's Island, and even though the railway had, according to Mr Gilder, only a" fleeing" value, rendered it not only a safe bargain on the part of Otago, but so safe thit he had no do.ibfc some contractor could be found who would pny all the debts of the province provided he got all the assets. Joined to Ota 40 that province would gain s )mething else besides — it would gain what was described in the Provincial Council of Otago as the heart of the province, more than one speaker clearly pointing to Southland as the garden of Otago. Then, she absorbed a most dangerous rival to her own trade ; a very great advantage. There was no doubt that when re union took place, this district would occupy but a secondary place, and should the Government desire it, influence could be exercised to lessen our trade in many ways. A3 the chief tovvn of an independent province, Invercargill could, if circumstances were flourishing, prove a dangerous rival to Dunedin, and he did not see how the merchants here could not export to other places, as Auckland had done, in some instances be-itinar out the merchants on the ground. Otago then, he said, could n>t lose in any way, but he did not see s > clearly what Southland was to gain. Sic gaiued, perhaps, immediate relief— but that; was doubtful, j Then, supposing both Councils agreed to ' the union, that did not conclude it. Ik ha Ito be ratified by an Act of the General Assembly ; and what in the meantime takes place?. Ofcago had no security to make advances on, indeed he did not think that any assistance from Otago could be relied on. The prothotersof the union had no ground whatever" for supposing that a subsidy would be given. Tne Commissioners', it wis true, recommended it, but he feared they would *find thit the recommendation was worth no more than the paper it was written on, and even supposing it was agreed to by the Otago Council, they, had no guarantee as to what fclie General Assembly might do, and in the meantime should anything occur to prevent the union, vSouthland would suffer from the.' paralysis which would certainly follow a vote of the House, in favor of re-union. Joined to Otigo, he pointed . out that Southland lost control of the local expenditure. Ifc would be controlled by: ! a Council about 40 in number, sitting in Dunedin, to which we contributed parhaps five or six, or as Mr Lumsden pointed out, their voice would be as one in eight. This w.is certainly a matter which' should be taken into grave consideration, more particularly as they were on the verge of national changes in the constitution of the government of the colony, changes in which, in common with every other community, the inhabitants of this province would have to take a part, and in which it would be infinitely wiser to have a voice as an independent province, than as only a district of one. The hon. member then alluded to the costly races run. with Otigo— as, for, instance, the escort— which was not very profitable, it being no doubt foolish, he said, to spend large sums in making : roads to a goldfield. but ifc was a mistake uearlv every community made ; Canterbury "had done exactly the same thing. After replying to some remarks of Mr Calder's, the hon. member apologised for detaining the House so long, and continued by observing that it had been said the General Government would assist in the event of re-uuion, and not otherwise. He would like to see the proof or authority for that statement. After referring to sonia matters of minor importance, he said he might exfceud his remarks to a considerable length, but the hour was so late, he would withhold them for the present. He held, however, that it had not been shown that the province was in such a state that good management could not redeem its-position. He did not espect much good, though, from gentlemen who took office with a foregone conclusion. The province had resources which, fairly directed, under judicious management, would enable her to surmount the difficulties of the hour, but it seemed to him that the present Crovernineat, haviap; entire control, would only show the facility with which they could be " destructive,'" and as sucli they would be hereafter remembered. ..

iKVBECAEGHtr,. Yards. 300 400 500 Total. Sergfc. Dunlop 11 J 3 2 26 „ C. Brown 15 13 5 33 „ A. Brown 18 12 14 44 Corpl. Campbell 14 15 10 39 Private Kee3e 17 17 12 46 „ Hulfadine 11 13 16 40 M'Conechy 12 12 8 32 „ J. M' Arthur 15 10 2 27 Millar 14 15 4 33 „ Johnston 15 9 4 28 112 129 77 348