PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Southland Times, Issue 1074, 16 December 1868, Page 3

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON DX HODGJKmsON'S IMiIIGBATION BE3OLJJTION. Mr Peahson, in seconding the motion, gaid— l need hardly say, Mr Speaker, ihafr I cordially support ray friend Dr Hodgkinsoh's proposal. Any proposition for the introduction of population, and consequent lessening of our present burdens will meet with my earnest co-opera-tion, but I must beg my friend to limit the area for free grants of land to Stewart's Island, and the present hundreds. I cannot consent to any breach of the positive agreement entered into between the (government and Squatters, Jifi&n pttr present land regulations were -passed. The agreement was specific. They, on the one hand, consented to ' give up their old licenses, at a nominal rental, for certain privileges ; the Govern- ! ment obtaining on the other a higher rental from them, and the right of selling land at any time on any of their runs — termed free selection. Free grants of 'land will be a direct breach of this arrangement, and to this I will not consent, it would Jbe dishonest. Nor do I see that it would act as a bar to Dr r Hpdgkinson's proposition. There is plenty of land on Stewart's Island and the Hundreds to satisfy a moderate demand by free grantees, and in Victoria 1 the area in which certain exclusive privileges are granted, is restricted. „ Dr Moncxton thought the Council threatened with an inundation of immigration schemes, and wondered if there was to be a new one every session. He ' thought the two primary objects of any immigration scheme should be the introduction of capital and labor, and he feared the one before the Council was not calculated to procure that result, as ' people who would come here for the sake of a few acres of land were not likely to be .possessed of much money, and being *bound to settle on their own land they could not be looked upon as supplying the labor market. He would not, however, oppose the scheme so much had not „.,tWQ. other schemes been in progress -already. - He thought the old plan of deferred payments, far superior. Mr Johnston would support the motion. He thought it good policy to give away the land to induce settlement, He had formerly introduced a motion on the same subject, and bad also supported the resolutions subsequently introduced by Mr Pearson, as he thought too many plans for the attraction of population could scarcely be put in operation. He was -not afraid of schemes multiplying too faat, if they were all treated as the two former had been. He had been informed - that the resolutions referred to were not laid on the table of the House of Assem-. bly until the night of its prorogation, and bfileived that had they been forwarded in tune they would have produced a bill, for the South at least, some way in accordance therewith. Mr Daniel agreed with Dr Hodgkin- " son's resolution, but thought 40 acres too little, at all events for such places as Stewart's Island. In that locality he thought 80 acres should be given to each adult, and 30 to each child, the sections being laid out so as to give every one, as .far as possible, a water frontage. He was 1 sure that if the advantages possessed by ! Stewart's Island were known to the right class of persons, people in North America and the West Highlands of Scotland, they would soon come here in numbers. They should be advised of the suitable kind of vessel required for fishing or trading here, schooners of 150 tons, when they would build vessels to bring themselves over, and would then have them to commence fishing with at once. It was very tantalising to think that a 'large number of boats, from Tasmania aid elsewhere, were engaged on our ..coasts in oil fishing, when not a cent of the profits came into our hands. "With regard to the attraction of climate, he had to admit that the weather lately had been rather boisterous, but to the inhabitants of the localities mentioned even inch a season as this would be perfect summer. He felt certain that were the facilities he had alluded to — facilities for whaling, sealing, fishing, shipbuilding, &c., &c., with fine climate — made known and pointed out to these people — West Highlanders and North Americans — we l should have lots of them here right off. Mr Basstian would support the motion if the operation of the scheme were restricted to certain limits, say Stewart's Island and certain portions of the mainland. Financially, he looked upon it as the best scheme possible. The Customs revenue averaged something like £5 a head of the population, which would be equal to 12£ per cent per annum on the land given, certainly a good return on capital. He would also like to «cc female immigration encouraged in eorne way, the scarcity of good domestic servants being a constant source of complaint. He war glad to hear Dr Hodgkinson admit the Land Bill in operation, giving free selection, was bad, and had proved a failure. He had said such would be the ease long ago. The squatters were by it forced to buy up, and he had found it a bad investment; were population introduced his land might be required, and he would be very glad to ae11... He was sorry to see the German element left out, as he thought them excellent, colonists. He said a statement lately made by a correspondent to one of ! the local journals, to the effect that the introduction of Germans to Tasmania had been found a nuisance, was not in accordance with facts, the scheme was never .-tried in Tasmania. In Adelaide, however, a great proportion of the early settlers were Germans, and they had certainly succeeded in making it a great agricultural country. In Tasmania they had given land for all capital introduced, even when in the form of machinery or implements. This system was of course liable to abuse, andhad often been takenado£ He~was : certain, however, that fetit' for the inducements held out* Tas- _ '. - •■-■■■■■ i ' > i

mania would never have succeeded, as a very p;re;it proportion of the laud was under dense foivst, and very expensive to clear. He would be glad to support the scheme if made not to hurt vested interests. Ho would even propoae the reservatioa of the blocks of land adjoining those allocated for free grants. Tho Provincial Treasures, would aripp >n< t\i,* resolution had the Province been i.i the same position as the others, oi 1 if he had any hope o ' the General Government entertaining the project. He I thought that by confiuiug the scheme to a small limit there was a greater Hklihood of its being carried, and if it was possible to induce the General -Governi ment to give grants even on Stewart's Island only, it would be a gre^t advantage to the Province. It' put specially in tlii.s ' way there might be hopes of getting the General Government to acceed to ifc, otherwise, he feared not. Of course the matter would rest with the House of Representatives, but if opposed by the ministry on financial grounds the Assembly would not be likely to carry it. There w*a3 also the question of roads to be considered. If the land was to be given to the immigrants for nothing, whence was the money to come for making roads for them ; their land would be little use without the means of transit. He thought if the Land Laws were to be altered at all-, they should be made to resemble those of Victoria, where the land was nowjbeing sold on dtferred payments. The system was working well ; drawing a large population. Referring to the remarks of Mr Johnston, regarding the former resolutions not reaching Wellington till the last day of the session, he was very sorry that such a thing had occurred, aud could not account for it except on the supposition that a subordinate official had been neglectful. So far as the resolution passed at last session were concerned, he could state that they were posted the very day following their passing the Council. Whatever had delayed their reaching Wellington the Government were not to blame. Mr Armstrong thought the Council indebted to Dr Hodgkinson for the able speech with which he had introduced the resolution. He thought, however, they must confine the scheme to Stewart's Island, the Hundreds, and the 2000 acre blocks, in which there were still plenty of land to support a very large population. It was said that 40 acres was not enough, that a man could'nt live on it, but there were plenty here already who lived comfortably on less. He meant that plenty of settlers, although possessing much more, were really living on less that 40 acres ; their cultivated land not exceeding that amount. With regard to the fisheries, they had been tried already, and found not to pay, and consequently could not be considered any great inducement to people to come here; He (Mr A.) thought the law of supply and demand as applicable to population as to any other thing. There were plenty of men here idle now, and it would be, to say the least, injudicious to force population into the Province until it was prepared for its reception. He would, however, support the motion, as he thought they could not try too many plans. Mr BASSUAif, (speaking to Mr Armstrong) — I think it should be confined to certain districts to prevent its clashing with the squatters. If you take their land you know the consequences — compensation. With regard to the idle men said to be here, I can only say I have found none in the country. Mr Armstrong resumed — He considered 40 acres of good land in a settled country quite enough, as it would attract, and fix a population whose labor might be available occassonally to larger adjacent holders. His neighbors had often worked for him to their mutual advantage. Mr Basstian had found men with i small holdings of their own, which did not fully occupy their time, the most valuable assistants. It was, in fact, the best kind of labor you could get. Mr Johnston, in proposing an amendi ment — the addition of a few words relative to forwarding copies of the resolution to the representatives of the province — thought they might be able to get Stewart's Island set aside for special settlement, and, if the scheme was found workable, we might then get it applied to other places. There was plently of land in the province, which would long remain unsaleable, that might in this way be made to bring in a revenue. With regard to the grant of 40 acres being too small, he knew plenty of farmers here owning more, but living on less. Mr Gaxdeb would suggest an alteration which would probably meet both his own and Mr Basstian's views. He thought immigrants arriving from anywhere should be treated the same as those from Britain or Canada, and would delete the words after " given to immigrants," viz., from Great Britain and Ireland and the North American oolonies. He thought no class views or national tendencies should be introduced, but the scheme placed on the broadest possible basis, and its advantages offered freely to all, without regard to whence they came, on the broad but simple ground of their compliance with the conditions. Eeferring to the objections brought forward, it was easy to raise obstacles against any scheme which might be mooted, but those he had heard adduced against L this scheme were none of them solid or fundamental, they were not against ihe system itself, but rather related to circumstances connected with its introduction. They were simply j fears lest the General Government should j look at us as differing from other provinces, and treat us differently. He thought in so doing the Council were looking too much at the matter as a purely | provincial one, forgetting the wisdom of the wording of the resolution, which regarded the scheme as one calculated to restore prosperity to the colony. It was, also, but right to give the General Government the benefit of the views of the various Provincial Councils, so that out of the whole the Assembly might devise '

a colonial scheme acceptable to its several parts. There was one great obstacle to immigration at present existin?, which had been much overlooked — the war. People at home did not discriminate between the places where fighting was actually going on and those at a safe distance, they simply looked to the fact that there was war in New Zealand. This had, do doubt, a great effect in keeping back population, and was a con- . tingency which would have to be anticipated in any immigration scheme, and met by holding out inducements never effered before. The debt of the colony was very heavy, amounting to about £35 per head, deducting the floating population. This, also, was a burden which must prevent an inward flow of population unless counterbalanced by other benefits, and yet increase of population was the only means by which the burden could be lightened. "With regard to restricting the plaia to certain localities, he thought special settlements objectionable; discontent was sure to be engendered. If a man was forced to go on to a particular spot of land when he might wish to go elsewhere, he would certainly be dissatisfied. He would prefer leaving the matter to the General. Assembly, merely indicating the course the Council ! thought best. With regard to what had been said about the Southland Bill, he had had some band in framing it, and might say it was brought forward for the purpose of raising money to reduce the Provincial debt ; clauses providing for free grants had been inserted, but were disallowed by the General Government. The Bill had, however, accomplished its object, as the debt was reduced by £200.000, and Southland thereby reinstated in her position in the community of provinces. But for that act she might still have been in the helpless position of vassalage she occupied when land was £2 per acre. He was glad to observe so much unanimity on the subject, and that the fallacious idea about " injustice to the old settler,' was dying out. He hoped the House would remember that the subject was a colonial as well as a provincial one, and have that steadily in view when dealing with it. Dr HoDGKnrsoK" said he had purposely inserted the word colony to give the motion a Colonial significance, 3nd confining it to Stewart's Island or the hundreds in its application would spoil its effect and make it purely local. By leaving it open he had no fear of the squaters suffering. The small farmers likely to be attracted by the scheme would|not go so far back as the runs, and big buyers could go there already ; besides which, the squatting interest was largely represented in the Assembly, many of the ablest men in it being squatters, and they were quite capable of protecting their own interests. Mr Peassos- said he had no possible objection to the amendment. He did not think fhey could be inundated with too many schemes ; the more they dis-. cussed the better the subject would be ventilated, and they could all be condensed before nest session — which, he believed, would take place before next sitting of the Assembly — wheu one good scheme might be matured from the whole. He thought, however, Stewart's Island and the present hundreds were a sufficient area for its application. There was plenty of room on the Island alone for 3000 or 4000 immigrants, and he was certain any disposition were shown to break faith with the squatters, it would militate against the success of the measure in the General Assembly. Forty acres were quite sufficient. He knew a good living to be made off five acres by Germans on Stewarts Island ; and then there were the fisheries at their doors, for the produce of which a good market existed both here and in Dunedin. He would object to the words " Australian Colonies" being introduced, the General Government would'nt; like it, as it was bidding for immigrants from a sister colony ; he would prefer to see it left open and general, free to any who chose to come. With regard to its' effect on the Land Revenue, he thought the sooner the General Government realised the idea that the provinces would never pay their own debt 3 the better. They would find that they must utilise the Waste Lands of the Crown, without reference so much to locality, for the extinction of colonial debt. Mr Daletmple was getting more and more confused the more immigration schemes were discussed. The matter was simple enough if we dealt faithfully with those already here, who would soon bring out their friends if fairly treated. As it was now we couldn't keep those who came ; they went away, he could'nt tell why. He had no objection to Germans, and would use them, if they came, as he would anybody else, but he thought if we had any benefits to bestow Britain had a prior claim on our liberality, in consideration of her keeping up a fleet and army for our defence and protection. The hon mover had spoken about the simplicity of the scheme, he (MrD.) did'nt believe in the simplicity of giving away land (a laugh), he did'nt believe in giving away anything. After comparing the relative coat of Government here and in the United States, and quoting from Dr Adam Smith, the hon member continued — It is these things, Sir, our dear Government and enormous debt, that staggers intending immigrants, and we are getting deeper into it again. These are what tell against immigration. In spite of all our schemes population was getting less. It was the madness and folly of spending money on useless projects that was driving people away. Mr Basstiajt — " Compensation, for land, for instance ?" Mr Dalbyhple — " Compensation for land ! I'm not aware of any compensation having been given for land lately, but if there is any allusion to me in the remark I would be glad if any hon member would get up and speak straightforwardly on the matter." He believed 1 they could not give away the land j that

the night's speeches were simply lost, and that the only plan was to send home a good agent. the labor part of the question, he thought we had plenty here at present. He could always find men to work for him when he wanted them, and had money to pay them. There were some people who never could get servants, and never would, but that was not always because they were scarce. The Speaker said there was a principle involved in the resolution which hon members must not loose sight of in its discussion. The Waste Lands were the property of G-reat Britain, and a handfull of men here had no right to give those lands away to anybody and everybody, but must confine ifc. to subjects of the British Crown. He spoke from no feelings of exclusi/eness, but simply to point' out that this principle >nust not be lost sight of. (Applause in the gallery.) ] Mr Pearson further explained, refer- 1 ring to what Mr Dalrymple had said about the debt— that it was really no use longer regarding provincial distinctions i in this matter. Virtually the province had no debt, the public creditor looked to the colony, not to any prtrt of it. He thought it might also be mentioned as " an extra inducement, to intending immigrants thut there existed a probability of the Government afterwards buying back the land at £60 per acre. His friend, the hon member for Oreti could bear him out in saying this. Mr Armstrong thought the Maori war had really more to do with retarding immigration than anything else, and wondered why it had not been alluded to in the resolution. He thought it would not be out of place for the House to express an opinion that severe measures should be adopted. Dr Hodgkinson replied shortly, after which the motion, in the following amended form, was put and carried on the voices :— " That this Council being convinced of the absolute necessity of introducing population and capital as a means of restoring prosperty to the colony, is of opinion that free grants of land, at the rate of forty acres of land to each adult, and twenty acres for each child, with conditions requiring settlement thereon, should be given to immigrants paying for their own passages, such grants in the Province of Southland to be given only in the Hundreds, the 2,000 acre blocks, and Stewart's Island, and . request the representatives from Southland, in the General Assembly, to endeavor to effect the passing of an Act in accordance with this resolution ; and that copies of this resolution be forwarded to the Honorable the Colonial Secretary, and to each of the representatives for Southland in the General Assembly."