EVENING SITTING.

Southland Times, Issue 1069, 7 December 1868, Page 2

EVENING SITTING.

Dc Moncktos" gave Notices of Motion for next morning's sitting, for extension of telegraph wires to Eiverton, and also, relative to payment of honorarium to country members. EAST ROAD. Mr Dalbymple, in introducing the motion standing in his name, — "That this Council specially recommends, in terms of clause 36, of the 'Southland Waste Lands Act, 1665,' that a grant of land, not less than ten thousand acres (10,000 acres), be made for defraying the cost of road works in the Eastern District," — said he had brought this subject on earlier than he intended to have done, but that, as a matter of justice to the Eastern District while the land was so liberally dealt with, or rather given away, he thought it should have a share. He did not intend to say much in advocacy of the motion. The roads were in a very bad condition, as everyone knew, notwithstanding what had been done* Mr JoHNSTbiS" would second the motion pro forma. The Pboyincial Tbeasttber would ask Mr Dalrymple — seeing the vague terms of the motion — how much more than 10,000 acres of land he would like to have set apart for the purpose mdi- j cated ? Mr AuMSTBOira must oppose the motion. He thought to press the same Would be madness ; if carried, it would materially endanger our prospects of getting the land for railways. j Mr Hateey thought it had better be ! left to the Koad Engineer to give a report on the requirements of the district, and the Council could act in accordance. Mr Eoss thought the Council, in entertaining the motion, was just wasting time. He found that land could only be allocated for public works, of which the preliminary steps had been taken. Certainly this was not the case in this instance. The particular work was not even specified for which the grant was required; and there were no contracts out, so that it could not be said there was any work in progress. Mr Johnstobte suggested to thetnoyer the propriety of withdrawing the motion for the present. Mr Peabson said he was glad for once to have secured the co-operation of an energetic member like the member for Oreti. It would be remembered that he (Mr Pearson) had, in a previous session, asked for money for the Eastern Eoad, and had obtained a vote for the same ; a small instalment had been paid of the vote, and the remainder he (Mr P.) considered was a claim for all time. The £10,000 asked for, or rather the 10,000 acres were, without doubt, due to the Eastern Eoad; Mr Dalbymj?liE would withdraw his motion. WESTERN DISTRICT. Mr Daniel asked leave to withdraw his motion — " That this Council recommends, in terms of clause 36, of the ' Southland Waste Lands Act, 1865 ' that grant of land, not exceeding 10,000 acres, be made for the public works in the Western District of this Province." Leave was granted, and the Council proceeded to the Orders of the day. ORETI RAILWAY. Mr Basstian, in asking the question — " What steps the Government means to adopt with regard to the offer of Mr Patterson for the supervision of the Oreti liailway," thought it was necessary that the correspondence between the Provincial Government and the Engineer (Mr Patterson) should be read to the Council. The correspondence having been read. Mr Basstiact said the sum asked by Mr Patterson £1,200, appeared to him a very large one, and he could not understand how it could be necessary to pay such an amount as that. In reviewing the items of payments already made to Mr Patterson, he (Mr Basstian) found that £1,072 had been paid to him on account of the Winton line, and he would ask what did Mr Patterson do for this ? The answer was he had sent down a young surveyor who had been at work on the line for about three weeks, and he (Mr ! Patterson) had himself devoted three days to it. £600 had been paid for a preliminary survey of the line from Winton northward, and he (Mr B.) understood that survey was useless. He wished to know had the Government the original plans prepared by Mr Patterson, or simply copies of them, because if they had not the originals, he could not understand what the money had been paid for. He considered in the state of the line, and as there were no engineering difficulties to be overcome, our Eoad Engineer (Mr Dawson) was fully competent to undertake the supervision of the work while in_progress. . --„."./'' The Pboyhtciaii Tbeasttbeb said in reply that the Government had come to no decision on the matter. It was a subject for consideration, and if the Council decided that it was desirable to employ Mr Patterson, the amount could be provided for in the usual way when appropriation was made. The present Manager of Permanent Way, Mr Conyers had stated to him (the Provincial Treasurer) that -it would cost at least £900 for the inspection and super-

vision of the line in progress to Winton J , this would be exclusive, of the nm required by Mr Patterson. Mr Conyert thought it would be necessary to employ ■} at least three inspectors, and £300 each would not be an excessive remuneration for the work. He (Mr B.) might remark that the Colonial Secretary, on the part of the General G-overnment, might insist on the appointment of an engineer at the expense of the Province to overlook the work and to report thereon. Without giving satisfaction to the General Government any one could see it would be impossible for us properw to carry the work through \ and in w probability the (joionial Secretary wotUd be satisfied with Mr Patterson's report as he possessed the confidence of the Government. We should thus save the expense of a second man. As regarded Mr Basstian's question about the plans, the Province had not got the original plans, for the reason that it was considered that mounted copies would be more useful and durable, and Mr Dundas concurred in this opinion. As to whether the survey from Winton northward was a good survey or no, he (Mr B.) could not say, riot having travelled over tH« line. . ■■■■;: ;

Mr Caldeb wished the motion standing . in name of the Provincial Treasurer to bo now put. The Pbovectciaii Tbeasttbeb moved the suspension of standing order No; 27; " That the question as to the propriety of the employment of an Engineer on the Winton contract might be considered." Mr Abmstbokg seconded, and the motion was carried. The Pbotestcial Tbeasttbeb moved, " That a sum of £1 ,500 for inspection of railway works be appropriated at the next meeting of Council." v Mr AititSTßOira seconded. He thongbt that although the £1,20 d asked by Mi Patterson appeared large, it might not in reality be too much to pay. . He thought " 10 per cent, was actually paid on contracts. Mr Conyers had told them in addition to Mr Patterson's remuneration they would have to spend £900 more for inspection. It would be remembered that Mr Patterson received £60 per month on the Bluff Harbor and Invereargill Eailway, and the Council had voted • that. One argument for the employment:: of Mr Patterson was that he had prepared the specifications; and dpnsequeittljf . would understand more of the .work; Another was the G-eneral GJ-oyernment approved of Mr Patterson, and employed him. He thought it could be easily seen that our present officers would not be able to do the work. There was Mr Conyers — a superior man wittdut.fi; doubt— but he would have his hands full. - The arrival of plant at the Bluff would find him employment in its bestowal, and the superintendence of the smaller contract would fall on him. . ? . Mr Johnstton — Does the £,1500 include the £900 referred to ? r The Pbotdtciai. .Tbeasttbeb— Tes^ Mr Caldeb would oppose the motions If Government could not sco thouMrtragr— to the completion of a small undertaking like the one m hand without incurring the large expense in supervision which tIW motion contemplated, he thought their were unfit to deal with the matter at aIL He (Mr Calder) did not believe in envelops ing an ordinary transaction in so much o£" mystery, in conjuring tip difficulties for the sole purpose apparently of creating a necessity for an outlay. "Where were the difficulties ? They were not "even" aY great as in the construction of an ordinary road. To talk of special difficulty was^ ridiculous; Engineering as such* was not ! required, the live was laid off and con* structed. In reference to the money already spent, he (Mr C.) must ' say there was a grave responsibility resting somewhere or other — the expenditure on the Winton line had been very larger* ; and £600 paid for the Northern survey, of which it appeared the Gxnrernmenli knew actually nothing, fle must say the truth ought to have been enquired into, considering the rumours which had been afloat. Satisfaction on this point would at least have had this worth,that it would have given us some date on which to judge as' to the value and emcieney of Mr Patterson* He yhpjjedY the Council would J pause before giving . the Government power to spend money as they proposed to do. £1000 had been voted to Mr Patterson for plans, and dust had been thrown in the eyes of the people. Engineering difficulties had been made to cover all kinds of expenditure, and for the £1000 plan, we had got what was perhaps not worth Indeed rumour says the old plans were used after all with but slight alteration ; he (Mr C.) would like to know if this were so. Our own surveyor was certainly as competent to perform the work for which we i paid . £600, as the young man who did it. Indeed, it may be fairly asked whether any one else would not have done it better. "We have a Chief Surveyor. Why conld not his services have been availed of. Again the £1000 voted to Mr Patterson was to have covered all. "Why; . was the £72 tacked on? The Pbovincial Tbeasttbeb explained that the £72 was partly for Mr Patterson's travelling expenses hither, and the balance for expenses relative to the Eastern line, and on the occasion of opening the tenders. > Mr Cald'er resumed. What are the drawings in" possession of- the Government? 'They'-'Are the plans to be r signed, by „the ..contractors. J£ £1006 alreaidy 'frim/ Mr Pkfttfrsok 4 we add £1500 now proposea/we Mvb the sum of £2.400^ ( bemg 14., per pent r on the value,of the. completion, and Jthiiai ujjonjpk work of which two thirds is already done. If »ye need an engiiieer, local assistance equat't.o^he'becswion'-is: to behad/ ! or M^T Balfour's..spm whatever we might "pay Mr ' Patterson, %£. would not actually ; supervise the work.,(_ Under all the circumstances, heithought/ we ought not to pay so large^ '-wifoml'* And if the completion of the railway be a matter of so much difficulty a« to need all the supervision and engineering skill

that it had been attempted to show was necessary in such case, lie (Mr C.) could not vote for its completion. Dr Hobgkiksok rose to order. He thought the Council should have passed the vote for the land first, and until that was done, discussion on details was wasting time. It would be better to postpone the question of expenses until to-morrow, and to deal with the lami to-night; and would therefore propose, as an amendment to the Provincial Treasurer's motion — " That the fnrther consideration . be adjourned until tomorrow morning." Mi* JohsMoit seconded the amendment. Mr M'Clitee would in the meantime suggest the examination of Mr Conyers. The amendment for adjournment of the question was then put and carried. The Peothtcial Tbeasueee, in bringing before the Council the motion standing in his name, as follows : — " That this Council specially recommends, in terms of clause 36, of the ' Southland Waste Lands Act, 1865,' that a grant of land, not exceeding 25,000 acres, be made for railway works in Southland," — said the motion was in itself so explicit as to relieve him of the necessity of saying much in introducing it. (Mr Blacklock here read the correspondence between the Superintendent of Southland and the Colonial Secretary, and also, correspondence with Mr Patterson.) It would be seen that. Mr Patterson had estimated the cost of completion at £27,200, this with the allowance to cover interest would make a total of £30,000, so that it would be seem that we were in a position to complete the work at a much less cost than was anticipated. Mr Abmstbohts, in seconding the motion, said this was the only mode by which the railway could be completed. "Unless this motion was passed, he felt that the Government could not continue to hold office. The hon member for Invercargill — Mr Calder-^-had . stated they were unfit for their position. Mr Cau>eb explained. Mr Johnston regretted that nothing was said in the motion about the state of the Province. He wanted to know how the interest was to be paid ; there was no land selling, and nobody to buy. Would not the contractors put their land in the market at a less price than the Government, and thus stay the sales that might arise ? He thought the railway must be finished, but could not see his way to finishing it now. If we cannot pay our interest our condition with the General Government will be a very unpleasant one. He doubted whether the General Government could accede to the recommendation if made. He would oppose the motion. Mr Daieymple read some extracts from the proceedings of the House of Assembly, and said we were drifting to destruction. Mr Howell would not support the motion. Mr M'CLTJEj^jiojgghtjtb.a^as our laxuL was at present yielding nothing — or but 2d per acre— we could not do better with it than to finish the work. He would have hon. member's remember that £13,000 had been paid for plant ; that, and the freight thereon with interest on the same would swell up* The question had been so often gone into that all that remained for him — Mr M'Clure — to say now was that our burden would be increased if the railroad were not completed. Dr Hodgkinson said the Council having affirmed the principle of payment in land this was now the only course by which the matter, could be completed. After three years handling of this matter to shelve it now would be foolish. After the negotiations so long protracted with the General Government — refusal to complete when it is now in our power would be averyetrangecourse. The Council had sanctioned the sending for plant, and was therefore committed to finish the work. It was a pity the engineering question had been started. The Speakeb would remind the House that carrying the motion would not increase our debt, but really tend to lessen it. Mr Dasiel did not believe in factious opposition to Government measures. He would, when possible, strengthen the hands of Government. He was, it was well known, no railway man in the abstract, and in the discussion on the probable expenses of completing the line, he had lost somewhat of confidence in his idea of the propriety at present of finishing the [Railway. He would not say he- should vote against the motion, but for the present he hesitated to support it. It was always pleasanter to deal with matters which one could cordially support. Still the question must be settled. He would like to ask why had the original twenty thousand had been altered to twenty -five thousand acres? The Peovtnctali Tbeasttbeb — To include the new portion on the Bluff line. Mr Cleske said some cash would be needed at once for freight ; the Government reports were meagre. Mr Peabson said he had been reminded during the discussion of one of iEsop's fables, from which he would draw a moral, and the Councilcould make the application. The fable was that of a mouse and a frog, who on the edge of a swamp, armed with bulrushes, fell to mortal conflict. A kite hovering over the scene of action while the combatants were engaged, at one fell swoop carried off both,' .!pie moral of the faisle is 'inactions doLbr,eecl niiscbief in a State.' The application—take, bur own while we can, lest W should j be taken from us— Macauley says^'Mtitual divisions j>rbceeding : from gar% .^animosities^' ' are oft times the sjjrest precusors of foreign aggression. Mr Clarke had said we should need to make agood many cash payments before Jjh'e 31st of present Mbiith.: He (Mr P.) would' "warn that Council that If w e / had not what we wanted before the end oj weshquld veiy"likely not. get it :W^T' !i %a'M%Tg%ab&iy in the next

General Assembly the whole of the land funds of the Middle Island would be confiscated to pay war expenses. The advantages of this line are apparent not merely as opening up so much country, but as benefiting other districts. There is for instance, the bringing down of lime so much required in the Eastern D : :-:vicr, and which cannot be had without the railway. Tfai-n there are the coalfields, and it has been satisfactorily proved that the coal discovered in proximity to the line of rail is superior to Newcastle. This coal, whatever be its true value, is valueless except at the seaboard. To get it then to the sea cheap is the matter we have to consider ; this can only be done by a railroad. The line once made could be leased for a term for as much as would pay the entire official expenditure of the Province. The member for Oreti says "How about < Koads ' if we spend this on railways." Well, unless the Tailway is made the road as far as Winton cannot be completed. On a great many grounds we are bound to complete the railroad. Members of the Council now opposing the completion know well they were returned to the Council on the." Railway ticket." To have raised any other cry, or to have opposed this at' the time would have been for them to have lost their election. "Where was their consistency ? There was, however, now no possibility of avoiding the completion. The line might have been constructed by leasing long ago. He (Mr Pearson) was in a position to prove this, but the squatters opposed, and now they are ' opposing the demand of the settlers for roads, by endeavoring to destroy the only chance he has of getting the materials; j there had been blunders in railroad making in the Province, as in other things. Mr Patterson had altered specifications, and thus a demand for compensation had arisen. He (Mr P:) had that confidence in the intelligence of the members of that Council to be assured that the opportunity of executing so important a public work for so small a sum being presented it would not be allowed to slip. Mr Pratt referred to the debt of the Province and the interest. Mr Caldes said he approached the subject with a good deal of diffidence. Debt had been talked of, and with some it seemed as if they had but one idea, and that, debt. Every man must see there is no such thing as the debt of Southland, because in the session before last, the debts of the whole colony were consolidated. The public creditor knows no province, no individuality of debt. Southland, without doubt, is able to bear its quota of this debt. Something had been said about leasing the line — that is the Bluff Harbor and Invercargill line. It was well known that Mr Holmes opposed the leasing of this line, and he (Mr Holmes) instigated the appointment of a Select Committee of the Assembly to report on the condition and prospects of Southland. H& (Mr C.) need not telL them that the result wes that comparison of assets with liabilities showed Southland to be in a first rate position ; there had been extravagance, but after all, the work remained, and it was a reproductive work, and part of a colonial scheme. If an adverse vote were arrived at on this question, the Council would stultify itself, having affirmed the principle of railways, sanctioned the order of plani, and called for tenders for completion of the line. Mr Pa att moved an adjournment of the debate. Mr Joks'STOK seconded. Dr Hodgk2KSO2T opposed the adjournment ; we had no right to stultify ourselves as we should by passing the resolution for adjournment. The PEOTiNCtAL Treasurer reminded the Council that freight must be paid on the plant whether the plant was used or not. After a few words from Mr Daniel, who proposed a slight amendment of the original motion, which was agreed to by the mover, the amendment was put and lost. The original motion was then put with the following result : — Ayes, 13 — Messrs Daniel, Ross, Longuet, Hately, Pratt, Monckton, Calder, Pearson, Blacklock, Armstrong, M'Clure, Hodgkinson and Howell. Noes, 4 — Dalrymple, Basstian, Johnson and Clerke. Mr Pearson's motion, relative to amendment of Executive Ordinance, was made an Order of the Day for next sitting. The House adjourned at 12.20 p.m.