ME STAFFORD'S ADDRESS TO THE ELECTORS OF NELSON.

Southland Times, Issue 957, 25 May 1868, Page 2

ME STAFFORD'S ADDRESS TO THE ELECTORS OF NELSON.

(From the " Nelson Examiner," May 7.) The Hon E. W. Stafford met his constituents, the electors of Nelson, in the Provincial Hall, on Saturday evening last. The meeting was one of the largest ever held in Nelson, all parts of the huilding being well filled; and among the audience were a number of ladies. Mr Stafford entered the Hall at half-past seven o'clock. On the motion of Dr Ibtine, his Honor the Superintendent took the chair. The Ohaiemak, after stating the object of the meeting, said, he was quite sure the large audience would follow the customary course adopted by a Nelson audience, a course which he had frequently benefited by himself, that of giving to a speaker a fair, patient, and attentive hearing. Mr Stafford, who was received with cheers mingled with some hisses, then addressed the meeting, as follows : — Mr Chairman and Gentlemen : In taking the chair, his Honor the Superintendent referred, with honorable recognition, to the reeption which, as a public man, had been accorded to him on occasions when he addressed the electors. From none more than myself is due a full recognition of similar receptions experienced by me from the people of Nelson, extendiDg over the long period of fourteen years. (Hear, hear.) Although some hard things have been said by some of the people in my absence, yet I have always found, when the opportunity has been accorded to me of meeting you all face to face, that you have treated me fairly on receiving explanations with respect to matters not previously understood, and always accorded me a renewal of that confidence which it is a pleasure for me to think that I have bo long enjoyed. It is with particular satisfaction that I have now an opportunity of meeting the electors of this city. I have ever considered it to be not only a duty to the electors, but an advantage to their representative, that periodical interviews should take place between them ; and I am especially happy to have an opportunity of addressing you at the present moment, as I am aware that there has been a good deal of misapprehension, and, I may say, of misi epresentation also, respecting the conduct of the (Government, which I hope now to be able to explain to the satisfaction of this large meeting. (Hear, hear.) But before entering on general questions, I find myself compelled to refer to matters which are specially personal to myaelf. I had hoped that; on the present occasion I should have been able to avoid all allusion to matters of a merely personal character ; but, in view of this meeting tonight, there have appeared in both the local papers certain remarks which compel me to allude to them. I shall first refer to the * Colonist,' published yesterday. I find that the ' Colonist,* in a leading article on the past and the future — which could have no other effect than that of prejudicing the public in anticipation of any explanations which I might offer this evening — says it did not want to hear explanations of the past ; that, in fact, it was " too late " to refer to the past, and that members ought merely to state beforehand what course they intend to pursue in the future. Ido noc know whether or not it occurred to the ' Colonist' that if it were " too late" to refer to the past in terms of praise or explanation, it was surely, in justice, also " too late " to do so in terms of censnre. But lam not content to accept that position, and notwithstanding the opinion of the ' Colonist,' I shall refer to the past. The ' Colonist ' also selected a most unfortunate illustration, in instancing the Public Debts Act as one to which it was now too late to refer, and in asserting that no intimation had previously been given that it was intended to submit it to the Legislature., as this Act was specially announ ced beforehand. The ' Colonist' could net therefore have chosen a more \infortunate illus-^ tration than this Act ; for if the public was even distinctly informed as io any question more th»

Snother, it was informed that the Q-oAernmenfc intended to propose to gurantea the Provincial loans. I wrote a despatch to Mr Ward before he left for England, indicating the intentions of the Government, -which dispatch wa9 printed in the local journals, including the "Colonist." (Hear hear.) How could the Government have more clearly indicated its intention^'if I had, as suggested by he " Colonist," communicated the fact viva vcce to the electors ? It may bo said, possibly, that this dispatch did not give in detail the nature of the measure. (Hear hear.) It is impossible to anticipate the exact shape in which any measure •will pass, and in this instance the Bill was brought into the House in one shape , and passed in another. There were only two i important political measures submitted to the legislature last session, one being the bill to consolidate the Provincial debts, and the other the Lccal Government Bill. Public attention had been directed to both questions. The first had been recommended in the speech of the Governor on opening Parliament for three successive sessions ; and the other had been announced in the Governor's speech in proroguing Parliament at the close of the previous session j and three of my colleagues in the Ministry, Mr Hall. Major Richardson, and Mr Richmond, in public speeches j stated plainlyjthat the Government intended to I bring in a measure on the subject. (Hear, hear.) I could not have said anything more than was distinctly announced as to these two great questions — not a word more could have been said so far as regradcd the intentions of the Government. So much for what has been said by the Colonist. I shall now quote from the Examiner of this morning. Speaking of myself, it says : — When last elected he was regarded as the champion of economical government — the enemy of extravagance in puplic affairs in any and every form. Mr Stafford has not realised the expectations then entertained of him, and he will this evening have an opportunity of explaining what needs explanation in his conduct, and of justifying the course he has adopted. Now, although this does not directly say that I waß elected under false pretences, yet a legitimate conclusion might be drawn from these sentences that such "was the case. (Hear, hear.) That " hear, hear " is an evidence that my interpretation of the language is not incorrect. How, the •Examiner' — as are all the leading papers of the colony — isfurnishedyith the statistics, ' Gazettes,' Parliamentary journals, and all public accounts, mand, before akjng such a statement, it might have taken the trouble to refer to the volumes on its own shelves to arrive at the facts correctly. I did not intend going so far back as that statement now obliges me to do, but in self defence I must refer to documents which are open to every man in the room — printed documents to be found in every public library in the country. Special allusion has been made to a statement made by me before I last, took office, to tha effect that the Government might be carried on for some £240,000 less than was proposed by my predecessors in the session of 1865. Well, I did say so. I may have expressed a difference of opinion as between £240,000 and £280,000, but I said that I believed that £240,000 could certainly be saved. At the time I made that statement I gave no promise — as it has been termed — to such promise was required. I merely advanced an opinion, as any member might do ; and I ask the meeting to mark the time when that statement •was made in the House. It was in August, soon after the financial statement of the Colonial Treasurer, when Mr Fitzberbert proposed that £1,586,907 should be appropriated for the service of the year. I expressed that opinion before the complete estimates were brought down. Only the ordinary estimates were then laid on the table ; the estimates of the extraordinary expenditure ■were not then in the possession of the House ; but when they did come down, the gross amount asked for was less than had been originally proposed, making a total of £1,414,102. Before these estimates were voted, Mr Weld's government resigned, and I succeeded to the Government, subject to no condition ; pledged to nothing ; but urged by many members to take office and carry on the Government. This was ou the 16 th of October, after nearly four months of the financial year had expired, leaving me only about eight months of the year in which to effect any saving. The session was far advanced, there was no time to frame new estimates, and I took those of my predecessors, and altered them in accordance with what I thought would suffice for the requirements of the year. I only asked for £1,158,183, which was a reduction of £255,919, as the estimates will show. I hold in my hand the estimates of Mr Weld's and of my Government, and anyone can satisfy himself at this moment, and can refer to public documents for the figures. But beyond this there was an actual additional saving, as during the period £46,000 less was spent than ■was estimated. I thus effected the saving indicated without having made any promises at all. (Hisses.) I hear some gentleman hissing. That implies, I presume, distrust of my statement; but here are the documents, let him come and examine them. He has an opportunity now of proving the accuracy or otherwise of mj statement, and it would be far more honest and manly to do that than, by hissing, to give me the lie, for <hat is the virtual meaning of such expression' (Applause.) A Voice : What about the Stamp-duty ? Mr Stappoed : I will come to that presently. I come here to speak fully, and I am not going to let you oft. (Laughter.) As for the stamp duty, I told the electors of Nelson, when I last addressed them here, before the general election, that it was exceedingly probable that I would propose a Stamp duty and an Income tax ; that both would, in my opinion, be necessary, and no one took exception at the time. (Hear hear, some interruption, and a hiss.) I beg that I may not be interrupted. If anyone wishes to speak, or to take exception to what I say, he will have an apportunity when lam done. (Hear hear.) Any question that anyone may wish to put to me I shall be glad to reply to when I have concluded. (Hear, hear.) Notwithstanding that the Colonist thought it too late for me to refer to the Public Debts Act I mean to do it, and at some length too ; especially as I have received from the committee of the Financial Reform League a list of qi e.*ies, the first of which refers to that Act. As that subject is the most important, and will take up the longest time, I shall postpone it and notice the others first. The Financial Reform League asks — In the event of the moiety of the consolidated revenue accuring to a province (deductions made for General Government departmental exptnees). together with its territorial revenue, being insuffient to meet the charges on its debts, out of what fund will the 'deficiency be made pood ; and, in particular, will the land fund of the other provinces be liable, under the thirteenth clause of the Public Debts Act. ?" In answer to this, I have to say that the land fund of any one province is not liable for the debts of another province. By section 46 of the Public Revenues Act, it is enacted that when the ordinary revenne of any province fails to provide, amongst other things, for interest and sinking fund of its debt, the land revenue shall be impounded to meet its liabilities. But no law renders the land fund of the other provinces liable for such defaulting province. The next query is : — What amount of annual burden may fairly be expected to fall on the tax payers on account of the engagements as to penisons to which the Civil Service Act has committed the colony, and what additional liabilities would be incurred under this head, were the Provincial establishments absorbed into the General Government service ? It is impossible to answer this question with precision. Indeed, any member of the League Committee would be able to answer it as well as I can, as the same sources of calculation are open to them as to me. The sum of £1,000 was placed on the estimates of the present year for pensions ■under the Civil Service list. In a few years it may amount to £3,000 or £4,000, or perhaps to £7,000 or £8,000 a-year I do not think it is likely to exceed that sum, as officers retire after sixty years of age, and as the number of officers is being reduced, the number on the pension

list tit the same time is riot likely to bo very large. 'font is my opinion ; but, as I hare said, any member of 'the Reform Committee may answer the question for himself. The next subject referred to on the Committee's list is one respecting nnnual loans : — What probability exists of the cessation of the custom of contrncling annual loans P I think t' at question is not very creditable to the commit Ice. A League started with such pretensions and whose objects were so large and importaut, might fairly be to have made itself acquainted with facts, and with what was the actual custom. (Heai', hear.) There are no annual loans. > The loans contracted by the General Government are only three in number — one in 1856, for half-a-million, to meet old liabilities, which existed when the Constitution Act came into operation, and to raise £180,000 to extinguish the native title in the North Island, j thereby relieving the land fund of the whole colony from the liability, which the Constitution Act had imposed, of being taken to purchase native land. The next loan was in 1860, for £150,000. to provide for the cost of the Taranaki war. The last loan was in 1863, for £3,000,000, to meet the expenses incurred in the native war, which had been entered into by Imperial officers during the recess, without the Colonial Legislature having been coneulted, but the cost of which it was compelled to provide for, owing to the large engagements which the Legislature found when it next met, had been entered into. Instead, therefore, of annual loans being the custom, but three — or, at most four — if the £260,000 authorised, to enable the full amount of £3,000,000 to be received by the Treasury, is reckoned as a separate loan — have been contracted by the General Government. The Provincial loans are, nominally, twenty in number ; but on« is merely a renewal of a former Wellington loan, so that nine provinces, in fourteen years, have contracted nineteen loans, or rather eighteen, inasmuch as one is of a special character, for the purchase of the Manawatu Block, which land is hypothecated to pay it off j and the loan is not a charge on the general revenues. There are thus eighteen loans divided amongst the provinces in. fourteen years, which does not show an annual custom of borrowing. In fact, there have been but two loans since 1863, one being, as I have already stated, merely a renewal of a former loan for the same amount ; and another — the Nelson Waterworks Loan- to meet which special rates are levied. In respect to the future, it is for Parliament to say what., from time to time, shall be borrowed. At present, there is a strong feeling against additional loans ; and only the other day the present Government refused to advocate, next session, a small loan for Otago, which was asked for, to make good the damage caused by the recent large floods in that province, which is considered the richest and most important in New Zealand. (Hear, hear.) If at any time a province was justified in effecting a loan , it would be when the roads and bridges to its agricultural districts bad suffered from such a calamity as the recent flood j but the Govern ment did not think fit to anticipate the action of Parliament. While referring to the question of loans and finance I may observe that while the Government receives a great deal of censure for what are deemed its faults — often very unjustly — it but rarely receives credit for anything it may do. The present Government has voluntarily tied its hands in a way that no other Government was restricted, by the appointment of the Comptroller of the revenue. By the institution of this office the Government positively cannot spend a single shilling of the revenue without the sanction of the Comptroller, and the piiblic funds are thereby safely guarded from all misappropriation. Yet to this great fact in relation to the finances of the colony I do not remember to have seen one solitary allusion made in terms of praise except by one of the Canterbury papers ; although, if this had been law a few years ago, it would have prevented the spending of a large portion of the Thiee Million Loan, which was greatly mis-spent, and would consequently have lessened the burdens which we now bear. The next question asked by the Committee is, " Is the revenue for the current financial year (now in its fourth quarter) likely to fall short of the requirements for the same term ; if so, to what extent ; and how is it proposed to supply the deficiency ?" I am glad to be able to say that the revenue has hitherto been sufficient for our requirements. (Hear, hear.) We have paid our way, and we have handed to the provinces what was due to them ; and although the Customs receipts will possibly be from £60,000 to £80,000 under the estimated amount, yet the Government has saved so much by economising within the estimates, that we hope to be able to meet all demands, while the of the public service will be fully met. (Applause.) In the event of deficiency, there is, by the Public Revenues Act, a permanent authority to raise a a sum not exceeding £60,000 to meet sums appropriated by the Legislature ; but no such power exists to raise moneys for any expenditure not duly authorised by law. I now come to the most important question of the Committee, on a subject to which I had intended to refer at some length even if the Committee had not alluded to it, namely, the Public Debts Act : — Whether the assunption by the colony of the liability for the interest and principal of the Provincial loans, conferring a3 it did an enhanced market value on these debentures, might not have been so carried out as to yield a corresponding pecuniary advantage to the colony or the provinces, rather than to the debenture-holders ? Before I notice this question, I may remark on certain inconsistencies on the part of those who object to that Act. When the province of Southland was unable to meets its engagements, the colony undertook its liabilities. The colony well understood that it dared not let its credit be injured by permitting Southland to be a defaulter. Southland owed between £400,000 and £500,000, and its principal creditors were two foreign banks — the Bank of New South Wales and the Bank of Otago. Well, Acts were passed by the General Assembly in 1865 and 1866, which pledged the colony to pay the. debts of Southland. The action taken by the General Government and Legislature with respect to the debts of Southland received a good deal of praise from some quarters, and no objections were made to it. " Oh, but," said Mr Arthur Collins on a recent occasion, " that is a very different question, the cases are not analagous." And he was right ; the cases are not analagous, for while in the case of the Southland debts, the colony undertook to pay the debt in full next December, in cash, with six per cent interest, and as security impounded only the land revenue of that province, in the case of the other provinces all that the colony has, by the Public Debts Act, undertaken to do, is to guarantee that the interests of their debts shall be paid annually, and that the bonds, when they become due years after this, shall be taken up, and as security not only the land revenue, as in the case of Southland, but also the whole ordinary revenue of the provinces was made liable. The colony guaranteed that for every pound's worth of debentures issued, twenty shillings should be paid when they became due, which •will not happen, as to some of the debentures, for many years, in some cases upwards of thirty years. So far, b^ way of comparison between the two transactions, which although not dissimilar in spirit, have been very differently commented on. In 1866, when Southland was in difficulty, every man in New Zealand knew perfectly well that the colony coula not dare to allow the creditors of any province to suffer by its default. Neither honesty nor wisdom would have warranted such a proceeding ; and honesty and wisdom can never be dissociated in such a matter, if, indeed they ever can be. (Hear, hear.) I will notice the objections that have been made to the action taken in this matter. Amongst others, reference has been made to the United States of America ; and the Mississippi and Pennsylvanian bonds have been instanced to show that New Zealand was not liable for the debts of its provinces. There could scarcely have been a more unhappy reference than to America, for if America had not allowed Pennsylvania to repudiate, she would not recently have had to pay 36 per cent, premium for gold to

carry on her war. (Hear, hear.) Nor would sho have had to raise hor lean mainly within herself, but could have gone into the money markets of the world. (Hear, hear.) But even if America had been a successful example, which it is not, the circumstances are quite different. The several States of the United States Republic are absolutely sovereign States, raising their own revenues, and regulating their own debts, with which Congress cannot interfere in the least degree, — it has no power to do so. The interest of the debts of the individual States, is not paid out of the revenue of the United States, but from the separate revenue of the borrowing State itself over which revenue the Legislature of the United States has no control. Here, then, is the key to the solution of the whole question. The individual States of America are, in matters of finance, totally distinct sovereign powers, with separate legislatures and governments, and with distinct debts and revenues. In direct contradiction f-o the position of America, the revenue of New Zealand as a col< ny, and of the provinces, is one and the same. The residuum of the revenue of the colony, after defraying the charges imposed by the General Assembly, forms the revenue of the provinces. So much 19 this the ca-:e that there is nothing whatever to prevent the Assembly from appropriating — and no one can say that it may not soon appropriate, — the whole of the ordinary revenue of the colony to colonial purposes. ("Hear, hear," from Sir D. Monro ami Mr. Wells, and a hiss.) And not only is the portion of the revenue which is given to the provinces subject by the Constitution Act to the control and appropriation of the General Assembly, as being actually colonial revenue; but, in addition, every debt of the provinces has been contracted with the consent and by the joint action of the Government of the colony ; and the signature of the Governor, given, with the advice of his Ministers, representing the General Assembly, to each bill, which authorised the debt being incurred. This fact alone made the .provincial debts in good faith the debts of the colony. Every member of the Legislature knew that no loan of the provinces could be raised without the concurrence and joint action of the General and Provincial Governments. Refference h^s also been made to corporation debts, and it has been said the Imperial Parliament does not guarantee these. Neither has the Colonial Parliament. Take the case of the corporation of Dunedin and other corporations which, have got debts which the Assembly has not guaranteed. Corporation debts are charged on special levied rates, not on the general revenues, which are not in the least liable for any of them. They are debts with which the General Government has nothing to do, and therefore it very wisely takes no cognizance of them. Then, again, I saw a letter lately from Mr Sewell, in which, amongst other things, he refers to the bill ior securing provincial loans, brought into the House of Representatives by the Government of which he was a member, and compares it with the Public Debts Act of last session, as taking better security from the provinces. But I am not aware that the security he proposed was better or very different from that which ihePublie Debts Act provides. He talks of waste land and railways; and the Public Debts Act and the Public Revenues Act, taken together, although not mentioning railways, pledge the whole ordinary and territorial revenue of each province to meet its debts. I refer you to the 44th and 46th sections of the Public Revenues Act. Nothing could be more carefully guarded than that the whole income of each province should be liable for its debts. The colony was a party to the loans, and the colony dared not refuse to guarantee them. When people in good faith purchased bonds which promised to pay 20s in the pound, the colony was bound to guarantee that twenty shillings in tie pound should be paid when due. There is not a man of business in this room who could continue in business and retain his credit if he refused to take up his acceptance in full when that acceptance came to maturity, no matter how his signature may have been obtained, no matter how the money was appropriated ; there is the document negotiated and due, and he would not dare to refuse payment; he could not do it and remain in business. It has been advanced as a reason for not paying in full that some of the debentures wore sold below par. Well, what then ? You promise to pay so much by a certain day, and if the discount is against you, if you pay a high rate for discounting your paper, that does not lessen the amount you have promised to pay when the amounts falls due. (Hear, hear.) There has been a great deal said about the Bank of New Zealand, and the large profit which is supposed to have been made by that body. The truth is simply that the Bank of New Zealand held about one-tenth of the whole amount of the Provincial debentures. At the time of the passing of the Act the Bank held about £300,000 worth of Provincial debentures. The Bank had bought the whole of their debentures at par, and resold a portion of them soon after at 103 long before the Public Debts Act was passed. The instance of debentures purchased below par does not therefore apply to the position of the Bank of New Zealand in the matter. But it is said, "How about the men who bought up debentures in the London market at a long rate below par ?"■•■ The reply to that is — How can that affect the original acceptor who promised to pay 20s in the pound. Even if you were to propose to pay less than was promised, what rule or machinery have you got by which to fix a less price, and compel the bondholder to accept it. Debentures go up and down like a pair of scales from below par to above it, and you hate no fixed standard by which to determine even the average price amongst repeated fluctuations, even if the original promise to pay 20s in the pound was in the least affected by these fluctuations, which it is not. (Hear, hear.) It has been said, in very strong language too, that "the colony might have saved £300,000 or £260,000," but it has never been shown how this saving could have been accomplished. Strong language has great attractions for some people, and" is often, in fact, made to stand in place oj argument. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) It is very easy, too, "as easy as lying," to use strong language and to call names. It is not always so easy to refrain from such language. (Hear, hear.) I do not intend to answer such language, beyond saying that those who use it might find it difficult to show how the saving they professed to think practicable could have been made. Provincial debentures sold at all prices, from considerably below par to thiee or four per cent, above par. When they asserted that £300,000 or so might have been saved, it was a pity they did not go much further and add a iew hundred thousands more. It would have been quite as easy and quite as capable of proof. Indeed, it would hav9 been just as legal and as equitable to repudiate the whole of the debts as to say to our creditors, we shall not pay 20s in the pound, and just as honest to pass an Act for that purpose. A great deal of misconception exists as to the Act. It is perfectly voluntary on both sides whether the Provincial bonds are exchanged or not; it is perfectly optional at this moment for the General Government to refuse to exchange them. It is also perfectly optional to the agent of the Government who has gone home to consolidate the loans, to do so or not, and it is equally optional to the bondholder to exchange his Provincial bonds for those of the General Government. If no action takes place, if the bonds aie not exchanged the colony is in exactly the same position as before tho Act passed. Mr Luckxe : No. Mr Stafpobd : I repeat that if no action takes place the country is in precisely the same position as it was before the passing of the Act. Mr Lttckxe : No. Mr Staitobd : Mr Luckie says " No," and he will have an opportunity of shewing, if he can, how it is not so. At all events, as yet no action has been taken that we are as yet advised of; and before censuring the Government for what may take place, people ought to wait and see what action is taken and then administer censure if it deserves censure. (Hear, hear.) I have remarked that those who have upheld the course the Legislature took with respect to this question have failed to explain it in any satisfactory way. It has been urged as againt the measure that

because soffe of the boticU have been purchased under par, therefore we should not have undertaken to pay them in full when due. But, if this argument were worth anything, why not apply the same rule to the General Government loans ? (Hear, hear.) 3For example, the Million Loan, which Mr Eeader Wood negociated in 1864 ; the first million of the Three Million Loan was sold for about £810,000 5 that is, the colony got only about £81 for every £100 bond ; and the 6am e bonds were afterwards sold by the Company which purchased them, at the still lower rate of £70 per £100. Now, these bonds, which are 5 per cents, are now quoted at £99. If, therefore, it was not a proper thing to pay Provincial bonds in full because they sold below par, why bind ourselves to pay the Gener&l Government bonds in full ? (Hear, hear.) There was first a million of 5 per cents sold at about £81 ; a half million of 6 per cents, at from £91 to £95 ; and another half million at from £95 to £99 ; and only the last half million sold recently of the three million loan realised £104 to £106. I Now, if to pay 20s in the pound is good with respect to Provincial stock, it is equally good with respect to the General Government stock. The fact, is, the argument will not hold water. The country cannot dishonour its promise to pay. The credit of the colony is at stake, and any sacrifice of its honor now will tell severely in the future. A few years is as nothing ia the life of a country. (Hear, hear, and applause.) We might say, no doubt, we have done a very foolish thing in accepting the bill, and incurring the debt, (and I am happy to say I had nothing to do with incurring it), but having accepted it we must take its consequences. And now that I have answered — and I hope satisfactorily — the questions of the Committee of the League, I should like to ask what the League is going to do. I joined it with a great deal of pleasure, inasmuch as it w as based on two fundamental principles with which I have always sympathised. The one, economy in the expenditure, and the other, a change in the character of the taxation of the colony. On these principles I have been acting, while the Reform League has been talking. (Hear, hear, laughter.) Four members of the Committee have written four very interesting papers, which are extremely useful additions to the literature bearing on the questions which they discuss, and which I hive perused with great interest. I will say this of the Nelson "Reform League, that while other similar Leagues have contented themselves with declaiming a little, some of the members of the Nelson League have evidently studied carefully the position of the importont questions which the League seeks to deal with. But they have not done nearly enough. If they think they have advanced beyond a snail's pace by reading paper 3, they are greatly mistaken. Look at what was done by the Anti-cora-law League, how they worked for the object they sought to accomplish, and what strong lacts they brought to bear on it. (Hear, hear,) demonstrating them by careful and unceasing study and argument, If this League is to be anything more than dissapointment, (I will not say sham, because I believe that many of its m r mbers are really earnestly striving to effect some good,) but if it is to be anything more than a dissauointment, it has got to do a great deal more than it has yet accomplished ; it must do something practical; and (turning to the chairman) I believe your Honor occupies the position of President of the League, and you will therefore excuse me for apostrophising you, (Hear, hear, and laughter,) and urging on you that after all that has been talked ot" in connection with the League, something more defiuite must be done, The next session of the Assimbly is approaching and I hope to see some advance made by the League, in the direction of showing how what they desire can be accomplished. (Hear, hear.) I have said thnt while the League was talking I was acting on the two subjects which form the fundamental basis of the association, namely, the reduction of expenditure, and the changing the mode of taxmi jn ,-md in proof of this statement I will now show what has been done in the way of cutting down departments. I have a return here being a list of all the officers who have ceased to be in the employment of the General Government during the last two years ending the 30th June last. I took office on the 16th October, 1865. Between the 30th June and the 26th October, four officers of Government had ceased to be public servants ; and from the lastmentioned date to June, 1867, 829 officers had departed from the public service. The names of the men are all given. A Voick: How many new offices did you create ? Mr Staffoed : I only remember one — the office of Comptroller of Public Revenues — one of great value to the colony. When the Government reduced the departments, as it has done, you will suppose it received hearty support, and that the reductions met with acclamation. By no means j the very reveree was the fact. In truth, the people of New Zealand don't like any economy in the Government, (llear, hear.) They write about it, and talk in favor of it, but they don't like it when it takes place. (Hear, hear, laughter, and applause.) To begin with, there is scarcely a public officer who is removed from the public service who does not consider himself an injured man, and who nourishes, consequently, antagonistic feelings towards the Government ; and, if you reckon each man's connexions and personal irienda, there will be from 3000 to 4,000 people ntterly disgusted with the economical action of the Government (Hear, hear.) Of the officers whose services were dispensed with, some twenty were resident magistrates, and, with only two exceptions, the Government did not dispense with any of these magistrates without receiving strong public petitions for their restoration and continuance in office. I may mention one somewhat amusing occurrence in connection with the subject. In one of the Northern provinces a Financial Reform Lengue was established, and meetings were held and speeches made, dwelling on the necessity for reduction in the number of public officers, and especially Resident Magistrates, and the same mail which brought the account of the meeting conveyed to me an application on behalf of one of the principal speakers in favor of economy- and retrenchment, for the appointment to the office of Resident Magistrate, vacant by the death of Major Speedy (laughter.) I was unfortunately able to inform the applicant that the Government considered that the exigencies of the public service did not require the continuance of the office. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) The truth is, the Government is thoroughly unpopular and abused because of its reduction of expenditure. If we discontinue a postal service which is not deemed necessary, immediately a petition is got up to maintain it ; if a salary is cut down, or an office discontinued, the action is complained of and stigmatised as cheeseparing. Reductions of all kinds are unpopular. People like a large Government expenditure 5 so my advice is — Don't abuse your Government for extravagance ; abuse yourselves. The laws of a country are no better than the people of the country who make them. (Hear, hear.) It is not only the General Governments which are pressed to spend ; all the Governments, provincial as well as general, are so pressed. It is well known that supplementary estimates are required to be sent down because of the continual applications, beyond the sum proposed by the Government, for more money for this or that district which members represent. It is not the Government, it is the people who are extravagent. Who forced on the Panama mail route ? The people of New Zealand themselves. (Crieß of No, no.) Yes, I repeat, the people of New Zealand ; for Mr Whitaker's Government strjngly opposed Mr Ward's scheme, and the people of Canterbury and Wellington got together and agitated the subject, and the Provincial Councils of these provinces undertook that if the General Government did not provide for the service they would do so themselves. Nearly all the newspapers supported it ; the Nelson ' Colonist ' being one of the very few exceptions which opposed the scheme throughout. The ' Nekon Examiner,' the Wellineton papers, and those of other provinces, North and South, advocated the service as an absolute necessity ; and it was not till the port of call was fixed at Wellington,

that Auckland fttid Otago, which hid hoped to be made the one the inward and the other the outward port, began to throw cold water on the proposal. Look at the files of the ' Nebon Exazniner,' and you will see how it advocated the scheme. People are fond of (Government expenditure, and do not like to see it curtailed, although it is for the advantage of the country that it should be. (Hear, hear.) When I left the Government in 1861, there was one intercolonial and one inter-provincial steamer a month subsidized for the conveyance of mails When I returned to office in 1865, I found three intercolonial services and seven services between the provinces in each month. The first boat I struck off was the boat between Nelson and Sydney. The local newspapers called out at first about the injury this was to Nelson, until they found, what I expected would happen, that the boat continued to run without any subsidy. (Hear, hear.) I shortly after struck off three of the intsr-provin-cial services. These reductions saved some £24,000 a year. There might be much more saved to the colony if the people would really assist in the effort of saving, instead of opposing it. lam not going to deny the advantages of postal services, or the Panama service, or the Cook Strait oable, because I think they are all very good things in their way — great advances on the progressive road of civilisation, if we were in a position to afford them. It might, no doubt, bo a very good thing for a man about to set out on a journey, to buy a horse ; but if he has to borrow the money to piy for him, and borrow the money to feed him, it n.ay be far better if he performed the journey on foot. (Hear, hear) The state of the colony does not warrant the expenditure of so much money for such purposes. We were pressed with the burden of a civil war, entered upon by the Imperial authorities during the Parliamentary recess, when arrangements were made for establishing military settlers, some steamers bought, and others contracted for ; and the Cook Strait cable, the telegraph, and the Panama service, were all entered upon at the worst time, as far as regards the financial ability of the colony to undertake such liabilities. (Hear, hear.) And now people express dissatisfaction with me because I mußt find the money to pay for all this. There 13 no just reason for the dissatisfaction ; for in addressing the people of this place, before the last election, I told you all what you had to expect — that there would most probably be more taxes required. A Voice : What about the £240,000 saving ? Mr Stafford : If the gentleman ha 1 been in the room some time since, he would have learned that I had saved £255,000, in-tead of £240,000. I lately looked over my speeches made to tne electors of Nelson since 1863, and I confess I was surprised to find how very closely things have turned out as I anticipated. I shall read one quotation from the speech delivered in January, 1866 :— " I am not going to toll you that we can meet our present liabilities without additional burdenß. The debt! have for years been accumulating ; and we must do something to meet them ; and I think the honestost course the colony can take is to meet its liabilities, by adding a little more to the amount of its taxation than even now exists. (Hear, hear.) The Customs tariff should be revised ; and, indeed, before the closs of last session, I proposed to reviie it, but ths members were so tired with the long session, that they refused to consider it. The Customs tariff should not, however, be revised with the view of increasing the total amount of duties received, but for the purpose of adjusting its pressure. Whether the duty is levied on a bale of silk or a package of cotton, there ought to be no increase on the total of the Customs burdens. There is no doubt that the high duty on some articles is fast demoralizing the people in several parts of the colony. (Applause.) But although I do not think it would be wise to increase the gross customs, I nevertheless do believe that it will be necessary to impose some other taxation next session. I know that in saying this lam laying myself open to encounter that opposition which arises, not unaturally, from a dislike to the more frequent visitations of the tax-gatherer. I cannot help that, and it would be wrong to conceal the opinion, although for a time it might make things " more pleasant." But I shall have nothing to do with a sham Government, which, while getting deeper into difficulties, might assume that things were better than they really were. If such a Government ts that is wanted for New Zealand, then I can only say I shall have nothing to do with it. (Cheors.") I clearly indicated that there would be no reduction, but rather an increase of the burdens. As yet there has been no actual increase, because although the stamp-duties have been imposed, there has been a corresponding reduction in the Customs revenue, which makes the total taxation much about the same. I then indicated that »n income tax might be required. I always held that to be an absolutely fair tax — one of the fairest taxes in the world. While I hold this opinion, I am not opposed to a moderate revenue from Customs duties. There are two kinds of expenditure by the Government — one that may be taken as being for the preservation and protection of life, in which every one, rich and poor alike, is interested ; and the other for the protection of property, in which only classes possessing property are more immediately interested, and which is properly met by an income tax. I then deliberately — and with the intention that the country should have an opportunity of expressing its opinion on the subject — spoke in favour of an income-tax. I believed the opinions I expressed would have an effect on the speeches of candidates at the election then approaching. I narrowly watched how the question was referred to, and its influence on the elections- How many successful candidates were returned who supported an income-tax? Only one! And how many New Zealand newspapers gave a consistent support to the tax? Only two, one of which was the Nelson Colonist. The others either vehemently opposed it altogether, or else, like the Nelson Examiner, damned it with faint praise, or threw cold water on it. But things are changing now, and many newspapars are perceiving that an Income-tax may not be a bad means of raising a revenue. (Hear, near.) Many members of Assembly, who opposed it before, are now becoming favourable to it. There appears ti be a strong levulsion of feeling, which is daily more and more in favour of raising a revenue by mean» of this tax, and I shall be much disappointed if the Government next session does not see its way to propose such a measure. (Hear, hear.) I think I have referred to the greater part of those questions connnected with the past, except the Local Government Bill, which was thrown out. It wa» curious to observe the grounds of opposition to the Bill. Some would not vote for such a measure on any account ; others thought it too complicated as it had so many clauses and the truth is, that many found it too troublesome to make themselves masters of these clauses, and the alleged diffusiveness of the bill was a very ready excuse, I know that many who then voted against the bill would now vote for it, but I question if they will get the chance of exactly such another bill. There will probably be one different in detail, similar in the principle. I observe that local Government has been proposed to bo effected by means of " skeleton bills," but I do not understand what is meant by a " skeleton bill," unless it be a bill which does not provide for various contingencies that are certain to arise. (Hear, hear.) That was exactly what has been the experienced in Victoria and Canada on this subject. They had skeleton bills at first, which were found to be unworkable, and after being amended at various times, they were at last consolidated into one large measure, embodying about the same number of clauses as that, which was introduced into the Assembly, lhen there wa3 the Municipal Corporations Bill, which was passed, although objected to by some, but with fewer objections than were offered to the ether bill. lam happy to sa\ that already six or seven corporations have petitioned to be brought under the Act, which is in separate divisions, some of which I think might be beneficially introduced nto Nelson. (Hear, hear, from Sir D. Monro.) But I offer this simply as an opinion. With respect to next session, the leading questions will be finance and local self-government, both of which

questions are tit growing imporiiMdft. Al ft* supposing you can stop the demand for local •««• government, you oanr ot do it. You might as will try, with Dame Partinston, to keep out the Atlanuo •with a broom. You in Nelson do not know the circumstances which affeot and influence people of other provinces. Outside of Nelson, except the Buburban distnols of Motueks and Waimea— which are only "üburbs after all — there are ***"% no outlying districts, except the goldfields ; and these are of Buoh a Bpeoial character, that they cannot be taken into account. Mark my word* I If the table of the House of Representative! is not crowded with petitions in favor of local government next session, you may say that my political prophecies are not worth much. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) You cannot prevent the country districts froiA associating themselves for corporate purposes, any more than you can prevent towns from doing the same thing. I oan see that, if tho opposition in some quarters is not lessened— if no provision is made for local government when the provinces collapse — aa some of them must do in a very short time — in fact, I will not be surprised if the collapse came any day — then will there be no local government at all in 1 these provinces 5 no machinery except what [ the General Government may choose to Bead. This is not satisfactory, My idea, and that of my colleagues, has always been in favor of extending the principle of local self-government as fully at possible ; and I may take credit to myself for having done something in this respect. The first Ministry of which I was a member, localized the land' revenue, and delegated to the provinces a very large administration. I shall continue to do what I can to give towns and districts the opportunity of associating themselves for purposes of local self-government. The other important question which will require to be considered is that of finance, and that is one which will task to the uttermost the best powers of any Government. 1 do not mean the present Government particularly, but any Government which may be in office for the next four or five years. The conduct of the finance of the colony during that time will be attended with great difficulty. (Hear, hear.) I cannot, beyond indicating my opinion that an Income-tax bill may probabiy be introduced next session, say anything more definite. I think that an Income-tax is admirably adapted for the colony, particularly as it will reach absentees, who derive large incomes from the colony without bearing any of its burdens. (Hear, hear.) I wish to state my opinion clearly on this point, because I am now speaking to New Zealand as well as to my constituents of Nelson ; and what I say here to-night will be read all over the colony. (Hear, hear.) I should therefore wish to give the fullest explanation as to what next session the Ministry may propose to do in connection with such an important question ; and, if I could, would indicate precisely what might be the proposals of the Government for the next year. But there are always springing up various contingencies which, in a country circumstanced as this is, it is impossible to forsee ; and as yet we do not know what may be the result of the negotiations of Mr Pitzherbert in London. We do not know whether these negotiations may be successful in whole or in part, or not at all. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) With respect to the present position of some of the provinces which have been in difficulties, I am happy to say that they are now shewing signs of improvement and recovery. (Hear, hear.) Southland is steadily improving, although miking less noise than at one time, and Auckland is certainly rallying, and will soon get into that Btage of steady progress which everyone will be glad to see taking place, and which the great natural resources of that part of the colony will insure to it in future. (Hear, hear.) Most fortunately it has happened for Auckland, as it frequently happens in other parts of New Zealand, that when the gloomiest prospects were presented, something occurs to improve its position. The discovery of a gold field on the Thames has been successful in preventing that emigration from the province of Auckland, which the comparatively prostrate condition of its commerce would have rendered probable, and has found employment for those who could not have found it elsewhere in the province. (Hear, hea-.) I accompanied the Governor lately to the gold district of the Thames and I did not meet with a single discontented person, except one. I met as I walked along the beach more women and children than are usually met in towns, and I spoke to many persons, asking how they were doing ; and with t'..e single exception alluded to (and that man admitted that he had made thirty shillings the previous week) and they said they were doing well, and wore contented (Applause). The tents are disappearing, and giving place to substantial houses ; and the diggers are daily sending for their families. That goldfield has saved Auckland by preventing the loss of its population ; and population is the strength of a country. That country which has a progressive population, is a country which will be prosperous, not perhaps as compared from year to year, but in periods of five or seven years. The advancing population of New Zealand justifies a confident hope in its future. New Zealand s although not progressing at the repid rate it did Borne years ago, is still advancing. More lands are being fenced, n«w lands are being broken up by the plough, industries of many kinds are increasing, and we may look forward with confidence to a steadily improving future In addition to the measures I have mentioned, there may be a few bills introduced for further consolidating our laws, similar in character to the important Acts which consolidated the Criminal Law last session. I have now to thank you for having heard me at such length, so patiently, and also for many instances of your confidence, which I have ever highly appreciated ; and although I do not pretend to say that I have escaped censure, no person in a public career can hope to do so — yet I must say nay long association with Nelson has, as a whole, been of a most pleasant character. I have been five times elected your representative, twice in my absence, without any election committee or any exertions except the spontaneous action of a few friends. Whatever may be my future position, either in political or private life, here or elsewhere, I Bhall never forget my association for a long period with the people of Nelson, and I sincerely thank the electors tor all the kindness they have Bhewn me. In concluding, I may observe that any Government of New Zealand is entitled to forbearance from the public j that a spirit of fair play would dictate that all the circumstances which affect its action should be carefully weighed before it is condemned. That it should be remembered that owing to the configuration of the colony, and the manner in which it has been settled, the General Government has to deal with important questions requiring grave consideration, and affecting diverse and often contradictory interests, while it is isolated from many centres of population. That from the absence of a common centre there is no clear and uamistakeable expression of public opinion on the part of the colony as a whole. That from the same cause there is no colonial press, but merely local journals, whose interests require that they should chiefly treat of local questions, and but occasionally refer to those of colonial interest; and when they do allude to general questions, they seldom — I say it with regret — take the trouble to make themselves acquainted with the precise facts. It is easy to destroy the reputation of public men as individuals, or of a Government when referred to only with censure. If I were asked to define the position of a Minister in New Zealand I would re ply — He must, as a rule, isolate himself from all his friends, give up all supervision of his private affairs ; sacrifice a considerable portion of his means, and possibly his health ; encounter hard work, and constant care, in the endeavor to preserve the unity of a country peopled by communities separated from, and regarding each other with feelings of selfish jealousy ; each section in turn considering that it is debarred from some special advantage accorded to other places. And he must face this position with the knowledge that whatever he may do or not do, however he may study or toil, he need expect no public support : that whatever good deeds may be done by him, or evil deeds prevented, will but rarely receive public recognition; that, in short, he will have no one certain source of consolation except the approval of his own conscience. (Applause.)