ME STAFFORD'S ADDERSS TO THE ELECTORS OF NELSON.

Southland Times, Issue 955, 22 May 1868, Page 2

ME STAFFORD'S ADDERSS TO THE ELECTORS OF NELSON.

(From the " Nelson Examiner," May 7.) The Hon E. W. Stafford met his constituent*, the electors of Nelson, in the Provincial Hall, on Saturday evening last. The meeting was one of the largest ever held in Nelson, all parts of the building being well filled; and among the audience were a number of ladies. Mr Stafford entered the Hall at half-past seven o'clock. On the motion of Dp Ibvinh, his Honor the Superintendent took the chair. The Chatemak, after stating the object of the meeting, said, he was quite sure the large audience would follow the customary coarse adopted by a Nelson audience, a course which he had frequently benefited by himself, that of giving to a speaker a fair, patient, and attentive hearing. Mr Stafpobd, who was received with cheer* mingled with some hisses, then addressed the meeting, as follows: — Mr Chairman and Gentlemen : In taking the chair, his Honor the Superintendent referred, with honorable recognition, to the reeption which, as a public man, had been accorded to him on occasions when he addressed the electors. Prom none more than myself is due a full recognition of similar receptions experienced by me from the people of Nelson, extending over the long period of fourteen yean. (Hear, hear.) Although Borne hard things iare been said by some of the people in my absence, yet I have always found, when the opportunity has been accorded to me of meeting you all face to face, that you have treated me fairly on receiving explanations with respect to matters not previously understood, and always accorded^ me a renewal of that confidence which it is s> pleasure for me to think that I have to long enjoyed. It is with particular satisfaction that I have now an opportunity of meeting the electors of this city. I hare ever considered it to be not only a duty to the electors, but an advantage to their representative, that periodical interviews should take place between them ; and I am especially happy to have an opportunity of addressing you at the present moment, as I am aware that there has been a good deal of misapprehension, and, I may say, of misrepresentation also, respecting the conduct of the Government, which I hope now to be able to explain to the satisfaction of this large meeting. (Hear, hear.) But before entering on general questions, I. find myself compelled to refer to matters which are specially personal to myself. I had hoped that on the present occasion I should have been able to avoid all allusion to matters of a merely personal character j but, in view of this meeting tonight, there have appeared ia both the local papers certain remarks which compel me to allude to them. I shall first refer to the • Colonist,' published yesterday. I find that the ' Colonist,* in a leading article on the past and the future— which could have no other effect than that of prejudicing the public in anticipation of any explanations which I might offer this avening — says it did not want to hear explanations of the past ; that, in fact, it was " too late " to refer to the past, and that members ought merely to state beforehand what course they intend to pursue in the future. Ido not know whether or not it occurred to the ' Colonist' that if it were " too late" to refer to the past in terms of praise or explanation, it was surely, in justice, also "too late" to do so in terms of censure. But lam not content to accept that position, and notwithstanding the opinion of the • Colonist,' I shall refer to the past. The ' Colonist ' also selected a most unfortunate illustration, in instancing the Public Debts Act as one to which it was now too late to refer, and in asserting that no intimation had previously been given that it was intended to submit it to the Legislature, as this Act was specially announced beforehand. The 'Colonist' could net therefore have chosen a more unfortunate illustration than this Act ; for if the public was ever distinctly informed as io any question more than another, it was informed that the Government intended to propose to gurantee the Provincial loans. I wrote a despatch to Mr Ward before he left for England, indicating the intentions of the Government, which dispatch was printed in the local journals, including the "Colonist." (Hear hear.) How could the Government hare more clearly indicated its intentions, if I had, as suggested by he "Colonist," communicated the fact viva vece to the electors ? It may be said, possibly, that this dispatch did not give in detail the nature of the measure. (Hear hear.) It is impossible to anticipate the exact shape in which any measure will pass, and in this instance the Bill was brought into the House in one shape and passed in another. There were only two important political measures submitted to - the Legislature last session, one being the bill to consolidate the Provincial debts, and the other the Local Government Bill. Public attention had been directed to both questions. The first had been recommended in tbe speech of the Governor on opening Parliament for three successive sessions ; and the other had been announced in the Governor's speech in proroguing Parliament at the close, of the previous session ; and three of 'my colleagues in the Ministry, Mr Hall. Major Bichardson, and Mr Richmond, in public speeches stated plainly that the Government intended to bring in a measure on the subject. (Hear, hear.) I could not have said anything more than was distinctly announced as to these two great questions — not a word more could have been said so far ai regradcd the intentions of the Government. So much for what has been said by the Colonist. I shall now quote from the Examiner of this morning. Speaking of myself, it says : — . . ■ When last elected he was regarded as the champion of economical government — the enemy of extravagance in puplic affairs in any and every form. Mr Stafford has not realised the expectations then entertained of him, and he will this evening have an opportunity of explaining what needs explanation in his conduct, and of justifying the course he has adopted. Now, although this does not directly say that I was elected under false pretences, yet a legitimate conclusion might be drawn from these sentences that such was the case. (Hear, hear.) That " hear, hear " is an evidence that my interpretation of the language is not incorrect. Now, the ' Examiner' — as are all the leading papers of the colony — is furnished with the statistics, ' Gazettes/ Parliamentary journals, and all public accounts, mand, before aking such a statement, it might have taken the trouble to refer to the volumes on its own shelves to arrive at the facts correctly. I did not intend going so far back as that statement now obliges me to do, but in self defence I must refer to documents which are open to every man in the room — printed documents to be found in every public library in the country. Special allusion has been made to a statement made by me before I last took office, to the effect that the Government might be carried oh for some £240,000 less than was proposed by my predecessors in the session of 1865. Well, I did say so. I may have expressed a difference of opinion as between £240,000 j and £280,000, but I said that I believed that £240,000 could certainly be saved. At the time I made that statement I gave no promise — as it has been termed— no such promise was required. I merely advanced an opinion, as any member might do ; and I ask the meeting to mark the time when that statement was made in the House. It was in August, soon after the financial statement of the Colonial Treasurer, when Mr Rtzherbert proposed that £1,586,907 should be appropriated for the service of the year. ' I expressed that opinion before the' complete estimates were brought down. Only the ordinary estimates were then laid on the table ; the estimates of the extraordinary expenditure

Waw toot then in the possession of the Houa« ; but when they did come down, the gross amount asked for was less than had been originally proposed, mating a total of £1,414,102. Before these estimates were voted, Mr Weld's government resigned, and I sueoeeied to the Government, subject to no condition ; pledged to nothing ; but urged by many members to take office and carry on the Government. This was on the 16th of October, after nearly four months of the financial year had expired, leaving me only about eiijht months of the year in which to effect any saving. The session was far advanced, there was no time to frame new estimates, and I took those of my predecessors, and altered them in accordance with what I thought would suffice for the requirements of the year. I only asked for £1,158,183, which was a reduction of £255,919, as the estimates will •W. I hold in my hand the estimates of Mr Weld's and of my Government, and anyone can oatisfy himself at this moment, and can refer to publio documents for the figures. But beyond this there was an actual additional BaviDg, as during the period £46,000 leBS was spent than waslftimated. I thus effected the saving indioated without having made any promises at all. (Hisses.) I hear some gentleman hissing, lhat implies, I presume, distrust of my statement ; but hero are the documents, let him come and examine them. He has an opportunity now of proving the accuracy or otherwise of my statement, and it would be far more honest and manly to do that than, by hissing, to give me the lie, for that is the virtual meaning of such expression' (Applause.) A Voice : "What about the Stamp-duty ? Mr Staiiobd : I will come to that presently. I come here to speak fully, and I am not going to let you oft. (Laughter.) As for the stamp duty, I told the electors of Nelson, when I last addressed them here, before the general election, that it was exceedingly probable that I would propose a Stamp duty and an Income tax ; that both would, in my opinion, be necessary, and no one took exception at the time. (Hear hear, some interruption, and a hiss.) I beg that I may not be interrupted. If anyone wishes to speak, or to take exception to what I say, he will have an apportunity when lam done. (Hear hear.) Any question that anyone may wish to put to me I shall be glad to reply to when I have concluded. (Hear, hear.) Notwithstanding that the Colonist thought it too late for me to refer to the Public Debts Act I mean to do it, and at some length too; especially as I have received from the committee of the Financial Rsform League a list of qve ies, the first of which refers to that Act. As that subject is the most important, and will take up the longest time, I shall postpone it and notice the others first. The Financial Reform League asks — In the event of the moiety of the consolidated revenue accuring to a province (deductions made for General Government departmental expences). together with its territorial revenue, being insuffient to meet the charges on its debts, out of what fund will the "deficiency be made good ; and, in particular, will the land fund of the other provinces be liable, under the thirteenth clause of the Public Debts Act. ?" In answer to this, I have to cay that the land fund of any one province is not liable for the debts of another province. By section 46 of the Public Bevenues Act, it is enacted that when the ordinary revenue of any province fails to provide, amongat other things, for interest and sinking fund of its debt, th» land revenue shall be impounded to meet its liabilities. But no law renders the land fund of the other provinces liable for such defaulting province. The next query is : — What amount of annual burden may fairly be expected to fall on the tax payers on account of the engagements as to penisons to which the Civil Service Act has committed the colony, and what additional liabilities would be incurred under this head, were the Provincial establishments absorbed into the General Government service ? It is impossible to answer this question with precision. Indeed, any member of the League Committee would be able to answer it as well as I can, as the same sources of calculation are open to them as' to me. The sum of £1,000 was placed on the estimates of the present year for pensions under the Civil Service list. In a few years it may amount to £3,000 or £4,000, or perhaps to £7,000 or £8,000 a-year I do not think i$ is likely to exceed that sum, as officers retire after sixty years of age, and as the number of officers is being reduced, the number on the pension list at the same time is not likely to be very large. That is my opinion ; but, as I have said, any member of the Eeform Committee may answer the question for himself. The next subject referred to on the Committee's list is one respecting annual loans : — What probability exists of the cessation of the cußtom of contracting annual loans ? I think that question is not very creditable to the committee. A League started with such pretensions, and whose objects were so large and important, might fairly be presumed to have made itself acquainted with, facts, and with what was the actual custom. (Hear, hear.) There are no annual loans. The loans contracted by the General Government are only three in number — one in 1856, for half-a-million, to meet old liabilities, which existed when the Constitution Act came into operation, and to raise £180,000 to extinguish the native title in the North Island, thereby relieving the land fund of the whole colony from the liability, which the Constitution Act had imposed, of being taken to purchase native land. The next loan was in 1860, for £150,000, to provide for the cost of the TaranaM war. The last loan was in 1863, for £3,000,000, to meet the expenses incurred in the native war, which had been entered into by Imperial officers during the recess, without the Colonial Legislature having been consulted, but the cost of which it was compelled to provide for, owing to the large engagements which the Legislature found when it next met, had been entered into. Instead, therefore, of annual loans being the custom, but three — or, at most four — if tile £260,000 authorised, to enable the full amount of £3,000,000 to be received by the Treasury, is reckoned as a separate loan — have been contracted by the General Government. The Provincial loans are, nominally, twenty in number; but one is merely a renewal of a former Wellington loan, so that nine provinces, in fourteen years, have contracted nineteen loans, or rather eighteen, inasmuch as one is of a special character, for the purchase of the Manawatu Block, which land is hypothecated to pay it off; and the loan is not a charge on the general revenues. There are thus eighteen loans divided amongst the provinces in fourteen years, which does not show an annual custom of borrowing. In fact, there have been but two loans since j 1863, one being, as I have already stated, merely a renewal of a former loan for the same amount ; and another — the Nelson Waterworks Loan— to meet which special rates are levied. In respect to the future, it is for Parliament to say what, from time to time, shall be borrowed. At present, there is a strong feeling against additional loans ; and only the other day the present Government refused to advocate, next session, a small loan for Otago, which was asked for, to make good the damage caused by the recent large floods in that province, which is considered the richest and moßt important in New Zealand. (Hear, hear.) If at any time a province was justified in effecting a loan, it would be when the roads and bridges to its agricultural districts had suffered from such a°calamity as the recent flood ; but the Govern ment did not think fit to anticipate the action of Parliament. While referring to the question of loans and finance I may observe that while the Government receives a great deal of cenaure for what are deemed it« faults — often very unjustly — it but rarely receives credit for anything it may do. The present Government has voluntarily tied its hands in a way that no other Government was restricted, by the appointment of the Comptroller of the revenue. By the institution of this office the Government positively cannot spend a single shilling of the revenue without the sanction oi the Comptroller, and the public funds are thereby safely guarded from all misappropriation. Yet to this great fact in relation to the finances of the colony I do not remember to have

seen one solitary allusion made in tenxiß of praise except by one of the Cauterbury papers ; although, if this had been law a few jears ago, it w..uU have prevented the spending of a large portion of the Three Million Loan, which wai greatly mis-spent, and would consequently have lessened the burdens whih we now bear. The next question asked by the Committee is, "Is the revenue for the current financial yeai (now in its fourth quarter) likely to fall short o: the requirements for the same term ; if so, tc what extent ; and how ia it proposed to supply the deficiency ?" I am glad to be abl9 to say that the revenue has hitherto been sufficient for our requirements. (Hear, hear.) We have paid oui way, and we have handed to the provinces what was due to them ; and although the Customs receipts will possibly be from £60,000 to £80,000 under the estimated amount, yet the Government has saved bo much by economising within the estimates, that we hope to be able to meet all demands, while the of the public Bervice will be fully met. (Applause.) In the event of deficiency, there is, by the Public Revenues Act, a permanent authority to raise a | a sum not exceeding £60,000 to meet sums appropriated by the Legislature ; but no such power exists to raise moneys for any expenditure not duly authorised by law. I now come to the most important question of the Committee, on a subject to which I had intended to refer at some length even if the Committee had not alluded to it, namely, the Public Debts Act : — Whetlier the assunption by the colony of the liability for the interest and principal of the Provincial loans, conferring as it did an enhanced market value on these debentures, might not have been so carried out as to yield a corresponding pecuniary advantage to the colony or the provinces, rather than to the d«benture-holdera ? Before I notice this question, I may remark on i certain inconsistencies on the part of those who object to that Act. When the province of Southland was unable to meets its engagements, the colony undertook its liabilities. Th« colony well understood that it dared not let its credit be injured by permitting Southland to be a defaulter. Southland owed between £400,000 and £500,000, and its principal creditors were two foreign banks — the Bank of New South Wales and the Bank of Otago. Well, Acts were passed by the General Assembly in 1865 and 1866, which pledged the colony to pay the debts of Southland. The action taken by the Q-eneral Government and Legislature with respect to the. debts of Southland received a good deal of praise from some quarters, and no objections were made to it. " Oh, but," said Mr Arthur Collins on a recent occasion, " that is a very different question, the cases are not analagous." And he was right j the cases are not analagous, for while in the case of the Southland debts, the colony undertook to pay the debt in full next December, in cash, with tix per cent interest, and as security impounded only the land revenue of that province, in the case of the ' other provinces all that the colony has, by the Public Debts Act, undertaken to do, is to guarantee that the interests of their debts shall be paid annually, and that the bonds, when they become due years after this, shall be taken up, and as security not only the land revenue, as in the case of Southland, but also the whole ordinary revenue of the provinces was made liable. The colony guaranteed that for every pound's worth of debentures issued, twenty shillings should be paid when they became due, -which will not happen, as to some of the debentures, for many years, in some cases upwards of thirty years. So far, by way of comparison between the two transactions, which although not dissimilar in spirit, have been very differently commented on. In 1866, when Southland was in difficulty, every man in New Zealand knew perfectly well that the colony could not dare to allow the creditors of any province to suffer by its de r ault. Neither honesty nor wisdom would have warranted such a proceeding ; and honesty and wisdom can never be dissociated in such a matter, if, indeed they ever can be. (Hear, hear.) I will notice the objections that have been made to the action taken in this matter. Amongst others, reference has been made to the United States of America ; and the Mississippi and Pennsylvanian bonds have been instanced to show that New Zealand was not liable j for the debts of its provinces. There could scarcely have been a more unhappy reference than to America, for if America had not allowed Pennsylvania to repudiate, she would not recently have had to pay 36 per cent, premium for gold to cany on her war. (Hear, hear.) Nor would ehe have bad to raise her loan mainly within herself, but could have gone into the money markets of the world. (Hear, hear.) But even if America had been a successful example, which it is not. the circumstances are quite different. The several State* of the United States Bepublic are absolutely sovereign States, raising their own revenues, and regulating their own debts, with which Congress cannot interfere in the least degree,— it has no power to do so. The interest of the debts of the individual States, is not paid out of the revenue of the United States, but from the separate revenue of the borrowing State itself over which revenue the Legislature of the United Statet has no control. Here, then, is the key to the solution of the whole question. The individual States of America are, in matters of finance, totally distinct sovereign powers, with separate legislatures and governments, and with distinct debts and revenues. In direct contradiction to the position of America, the revenue of New Zealand as a colony, and of the provinces, is one and the Bame. The residuum of the revenua of the colony, after defraying the charges imposed by the General Assembly, forms the revenue of the provinces. So much is this the case that there is nothing whatever to prevent the Assembly from appropriating — and no one can say that it may not soon appropriate, — the whole of the ordinary revenue of the colony to colonial purposes. ("Hear, hear," from Sir D. Monro and Mr. Wells, and ft hiss.) And not only is the portion of the revenue which is given to the provinces subjeot by the Constitution Act to the control and appropriation of the General Assembly, as being actually colonial revenues but, in addition, every debt of the provinces ha» been contracted with the consent and by the joint action of the Government of the colony ; and the signature of the Governor, given, with the advice of his Ministers, representing the General Assembly, to each bul, which authorised the debt being incurred. This fact alone made the provincial debts in good faith the debts of the colony. Every member of the Legislature knew that no loan of the provinces could be raised without the concurrence and joint action of the General and Provincial Governments. Befference has also been made to corporation debts, and it has been said the Imperial Parliament does not guarantee these. Neither has the Colonial Parliament. Take the case of the corporation of Dunedin and other corporations which have got debts which the Assembly has not guaranteed. Corporation debts are charged on special levied rates, not on the general revenues, which are not in the least liable for any of them. They are debts with which the General Government has nothing to do, and therefore it very wisely takes no cognizance of them. Then, again, I saw a letter lately from Mr Sewell, in which, amongst other things, he refers to the bill for securing provincial loans, brought into the House of Bepresentatives by the Government of which he was a member, and compares it with the Publio Debts Act of last sesiion, as taking better securiiy from the provinces. But I am not aware that the security ho proposed was better or very different from that which thePublie Debts Act provides. He talks of waste land and railways ; and the Public Debts Act and the Public Revenues Act, taken together, although not mentioning railways, pledge the whole ordinary and territorial revenue of each province to meet its debts. I refer you to the 44th and 46th sections of the Public Revenues Act. Nothing could be more" carefully guarded than that the whole income of each province should be liable for its debts. The colony was a party to the loans, and the. colony dared not refuse to guarantee them. When people in good faith purchased bonds which, promised to pay 20s in the pound, the

colonj was bound to guarantee that twenty shillings in the pound should bo paid when due There is not a man of business in this room wh< could continue in business and retain bis credii if he refused to take up his acoeptance in ful when that acceptance came to maturity, no mattei how his signature may have been obtained, n< matter how the money was appropriated ; then is the document negotiated and due, and he woulc not dare to refuse payment; he could not d« it and remain in business. It has been ad vanced as a reason for not paying in full thai some of the debentures were soli below p»" Well, what then? You promise to pay sc much by_ a_certain_day,- *aud .. if. jtha-disoount is against you, if you pay a high rate for dis counting your paper, that does not lessen the amount you have promised to pay -when the amounts falls due. (Hear, hear.) There has been a great deal said about the Bank of Neis Zealand, and the large profit which is Bupposed to have been made by that body. Tnt truth is simply that the Bank of New Zealand held about one-tenth of the whole amount of the Provincial debentures. At the time of the passing of the Act the Bank held about £300,000 worth of Provincial debentures. The Bant had bough! the whole of their debentures at par, and resold a portion of them soon after at 103 long before the Public Debts Act was passed. The instance oi debentures purchased below par does not therefore apply to the position of the Bank of New Zealand in the matter. But it is said, "How about the men who bought up debentures in the I London market at a long rate below par ?" The reply to that is — How can that affect the original acceptor who promised to pay 20s in the pound. Even if you were to propose to pay less than was promised, what rule or machinery have you got by which to fix a less price, and compel the bondholder to accept it. Debentures go up and down like a pair of scales from below par to above it, and you ha\e no fixed standard by which to determine even the average price amongst repeated fluctuations, even if the original promise to pay 20s in the pound was in the least affected by these fluctuations, which it is not. (Hear, hear.) It has been said, in very strong language too, that "the colony might have saved £300,000 or £260,000," but it has never been shown how this saving could have been accomplished. Strong language has great attractions for some people, and is often, in fact, made to stand in place of argument. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) It h very easy, too, "as easy as lying," to use strong language and to call names. It is not always so easy to refrain from such language. (Hear, hear.) I do not intend to answer such language, beyond saying that those who use it might find it difficult to show how the saving they professed to think practicable could have been made. Provincial debentures sold at all prices, from considerably below par to thiee or four per cent, above par. When they asserted that £300,000 or so might have been saved, it was a pity they. did not go much further and add a iew hundred thousands more. It would have been quite as easy and quite as capable of proof. Indeed, it would hava been just as legal and as equitable to repudiate the whole of the debts as to say to our creditors, we shall not pay 20s in the pound, and just as honest to pass an Act for that purpose. A great deal of misconception exists as to the Act. It is perfectly voluntary on both sides whether the Provincial bonds are exchanged or not; it is perfectly optional at this moment for the General Government to refuse to exchange them. It is also perfectly optional to the agent of the Government who has gone home to consolidate the loans, to do so or not, and it is equally optional to the bondholder to exchange his Provincial bonds for those of the General Government. If no action takes place, if the bonds ai c not exchanged the colony is in exactly the same position as before tha Act passed. (To le continued)