PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Southland Times, Issue 943, 1 May 1868, Page 3

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

WEDNESDAY, 29th APRIL, IS&S. MORNING SITTING. The Speaker took tho chair shortly after 11 o'clock. Present : Messrs irately, Daniels, Johnston, Howell, Luinaden, Cuthbarfcson, Hodkinson, Armstrong, Ross, Clerke, Longuot, Pearson, Dalrymple, BUoklook, M'Clure, Calder. Proceedings having been opened with prayers, the minutes' of last aiee'ting were read and confirmed, NOTICES OF MOTION, Mr Daxbyml'l.E gave notice that at nest sitting he would move certain resolutions as to the manner of electing the Superintendent. Mr Daniel 3 gave notice of two motions to place sums on the Estimates for repairs on the streets of Riverton, and culverts between Otautau Eiver and Wrey's Bush. DESTITUTE CHILDREN. The Pbovinoial Tbe asubeb laid on the table a return compiled by the Commissioner of Police, aa to the number of destitute children in the town and suburbs. He moved, that it be read. But oh being informed it contained certain ,in formation which it was not desirable should be made public, it was laid on the table. Mr Caideb pointed out that it was a -public document, and sure to be copied. The Speakeb .thought that the members of Government ought to have known the contents of such a document before laying it before the House. The Pbotincial Tbeasfbsb personally had no objection ; but he thought that out of regard to the feelings of others the contents had better not be read. Mr Daxbympxe could not see why it should be withheld. .'•■■■ After some remarks from other members, The Spsakeb said he was of opinion that the document could be read, omitting the names. He apprehended the Council had nothing to do with the names of individuals, but simply with thBtate of things as they existed. Mr Clebke, after looking at the document, said he thought it might be read, leaving out the " remarks," which seemed the objectionable part ol the return. The Pbovujciax Tbeasubeb had no objection to this, and the report was read by the Clerk. The total number of neglected children was stated to be thirty-seven ; the cause chiefly assigned being intemperance on the part of one or both parents. LOYAL ADDRE3S. Mr Cuthbebtson moved—" That a committee, to consist of Messrs Calder, M'Clare, Armstrong, and the mover, be appointed to prepare a loyal address to Her Majesty on the recent happy escape of H.R.H. the Duke oi Edinburgh," and report at to-morrow morning's sitting. THE ORETI RAILWAY. Mr M'CiitTßE moved — " That - this Council deems it preferable, to complete the Oreti Railway by cash payments, in lieu of payments by land, and approves of the proposition agreed to by the General Government, of capitalising the interest of the provincial debt up to the end of 1868 for this purpose." He said that when the present Government took office, they found the Oreti line left as a legacy by their predecessors, and their great, work had been to find out how it was to be completed. .At the first session of the present Council, .a disposition was shown to complete the "wprk by payments in land, and at the next session it appeared that payments should be made in cash. In furtherance of this viaw, the Superintendent and Provincial Treasurer went to Wellington and laid certain propositions before the General Government. The hon member here summarised the proceedings from the correspondence which has already been published. He proceeded to call upon the Council to affirm the proposition laid down in. the resolution, and accept the liberal concession on the part of the General Government — a concession made for the specific purpose of completing the line, and no other object. The Council had affirmed that it should be completed by paying in land when the land was not free j he did not see how they could refuse now, when it was free, and no loss could accrue. Taking his rough estimate of the cost of the line at £50,000 ; to obtain this amount of work by paying in land, they -would require to part with 66,666 acres, as no contractor would take land at 20s per acre to give 20s worth of work for it. It would be a sacrifice of as much in amount to what one-third of the whole line would cost. The concession granted by the General Government was eqniyalent to a line at par, or upon this amount conceded by the General Government, there would be a saving of £8,333 — or acres— or an amount conceded equal to the cost of completing one-third of the- line. After referring to what had been done in other Provinces in this respect, he asked if the Proyincial Council of Southland would refuse this payment in land, or refuse to finish the work. It was a work founded on the most Bound financial principles,, and the sooner it was completed the better. If the Council would not accept the offer made in this concession, and affirm the principle that the work must be_made in cash pay-' ments, they would have to fall back on the old plan which could not fail of being a source of loss to the Province. He did not think that anyone who had the welfare of the Province at heart could refuse such a scheme. It had been the main work of the Provincial Government to substitute cash for land payments, and this was approved of by the General Government, since they had consented to aid us in the matter. He concluded by moving the motion. The Pbovdjcian Tbeasubeb (Mr Blacklock) said this question was continually cropping up. It was really the element of discord bequeathed by former Council. There it was, and to his mind it did appear a discredit that detracted from our sound appearance in the eyes of a stranger. He knew that it had deterred strangers from investing in the province. They thought it could not be in a sound position when they saw such public works unfinished. He wa» not personally bound up in the finishing of the line, in fact he might say he way a road man (hear, hear), and thought the Government had proved itself so during the last session. He would almost make a hobby of roads, and would be inclined to spend as much on them next summer bb they had done during the present. There were great gaps in the road?, and where they were not fenced-in, waggons could make tracks for themselves ; but where there were fences the works had been carried on. He would therefore be disposed to get more money for them next season. At the same time, he felt that the line should be. finished, and as soon as they could ace the way to do it, without involving the ProTince in any difficulty, the better. There was no r doubt but that it would cause the land to sell, and equaUy without doubt it would be a feeder of the: Bluff line. They are already obliged to keep up a railway staff for that line, and being in office he spoke from experience in saying that the present staff would carry on both lines. It would require yery little addition to the plant, only a few more trucks for goods, and some carriages would do, -with a little more expense for fuel. They were not rushing into a work the utility of which was problematical. He aaid, it would rather be assisting materially to pay the expenses of the Bluff line, and the work itself carried on with very little, expense to the Province. The Government thought it better to publish the correspondence in order that members might see it before coming to the Council. The proposition made by the Superintendent and himself, when in Wellington, and the one assented to, was to the effect that the General Government shall capitaii3o the current interest till the end of 1868, thereby giving fiiteen months interest on our debt. The debt, as Btated in our own Gazette, checked by theauditor.stoodthus : At the end of 1867 our liabilities were £318,34(5 12s 6d, which with interest to that, and other items, made a total of £367,285. From this there s to be deducted a credit in the Bank oi Otago of £1200, which brought our debt to JK36«,^00, in round figurei. At the end of September he made the debt £362,492, and making

allowance fa? claims made, bat which would bo written off, with other deductions, the deht amounted, in round numbers, to £36O»O0 ( V Tlie New Zealand Oa's olaim had now only fifteen years to run, and by providing each year £10^0, that debt would beoxtin^uisii^d. Taking the debt at the end of September,' 18S7, at £560,000. and the interest at sis percent. — it might bo seven per cftiii. — it ivoul 1 auiounfe to £27,000. I'h:it interest -was already i<\ a gre it put due, asd w'\et!wr t!u» m »ney was taken for railway purposes o • not, we hiJ to pay it to the General Governmi at. Up to t'n's date they could not legally retain it } hut the Provincial" Government, had asked to do so, in order that a large amount need not bo come down for at one time. It wtfuld be advisable to allow them to retain the amount if they did not cipitHlise it. He had gone into the different a ;counts whon in the- North, where ho had to whether the Superintendent went or nat, becaus3 lie found it waa essential to get the accounts in shape. FTe had them brought down to the end ot 1867, and found that in a, separate account, before the time Southland's debtcameinto existence a balance existed exclusive of interest. He had found the General Government very ready to charge interest, but when the interest was in our favor, it had not been done, and he caused it to be done. This balance amounted to £1,031 83 4d. Then in the consolidated fund at the end of the year, there was a balance shown in our favor of £848 14s Bd. The hon member then proceeded to show what means would probably be in hand for the purposes. There would be four months of tinconsolidated revenue, say £4,000 ; the balance of land revenue he would state in round figures at £5,000 at present — in February and March there was £7500 owing —the pastoral rents, say £6500, making a total of £20,348. It would not be necessary he said, to remit the whole of the money required — £19,000, he believed th.; cost of plant came to —it could bo done in the same way that a merchant could Older toods, viz., by establishing a credit with a banker, ordering the material oi 1 plant through him, and showing his agent here that the money would be ready when wanted. Say that £4000 would be sufficient to warrant them in ordering the plant they" would be savin? interest by having the other amounts to their credit. The hon. member then read a memo. furnished by Mr Paterson, engineer, from -which it appeared that the whole coat of the lino need not exceed more than £56,500. It was also considered desirable to proceed with the British contracts. - -Larger contracts for some parts of the line shoull be commenced on an early date so as to be completed before 1869. The memo, included. a schedule of the w^orks and .material required, such as iron for bridges, &c, &c. The local contracts would include tha completion of fencing, culverts, the works at Winton, with additional works at Invercargill, &c An allowance of five per cent, on the whole was made in the memo, for contingencies. After pointing out the importance of being able to make repairs on wheels and machinery here, instead of sending to Melbourne, he said that the Government would appoint a testing engineer, and on his certificate the manager in London of the .New Zealand Bank would be authorised to pay the amount to the .contractors there. The plan would be for the testing en iineei to call for tenders, if necessary have them opened in presence of the banker, and afterwards they could be sent out and laic on tbe Council table. At firßt it was thought that .merchants in the colony might wish to compete for supplying the machinery, but it had been found that owing to the fluctuations in the iron market it could not well be done. Still, if they chose they could authorise their agents at : home to do ax It would have to be done through their agents at home, in any case. As to the carrying out of local contracts, it had been a subject of debate with the Government whether to give them out in large or small contracts. The objection raised to the latter was that one might interfere with another. He granted that in some cases this might be ; but they could let the supply of sleepers as a separate contract, the earthworks as another, and so on. The ballasting, Government intended getting down, by their own staff, as it would not be desirable that any contractor should have the use of the Bluff line, where nearly all the ballast would have to be brought. He merely stated these things as he wished the Council to know what the Government thought on the matter j these things had not been decided yet. They knew of very few here who could contract for the whole, but the Government i might call for tenders as a whole, and by adding up the small contracts see' which would be the 1 cheapest. These were all matters of detail. With these remarks he would conclude, and take an opportunity of explaining anything as was wanted. Mr Dalbymple wished the Government to state how much debt there would be when they commenced to pay interest— how much in round numbers would be the debt of the Province ? The Peotxwciali Tbeasobeb — At the end of September, 1867, the debt was £360,000, and interest (which includes sinking fund) to £27,000 making the whole debt to that time, £387,000. Mr Johston moved — " That the House adjourn till half-past seven, which was seconded by Mr Dalrymple. , Mr Gaxdeb suggested^tbat in case of a further adjournment being asked for, some oiher question might be brought forward. The Spbakeb said the proper course was to move the adjournment of the debate. Mr G&ERKB asked the Provincial Treasurer where the good round sum promised for roads, was to come from ? He had not shown it. The Pbovincili Tbeasttbeb said that none of the members of the Government were gif*ed with prophetic vision, but he hoped their revenue would amount to as much as enable them to go on with both Railway and Roads. The Government were quite as anxious as auy member that roads should be gone on with. Mr Caideb submitted that the Government had not shown that roads would not be neglected. The motion to adjourn was then put and carried. Afterwards there were receieved from His Honor the Superintendent, messages inclosing "Appropriation Ordinance, No. '2, 1868," and "Oreti Ferry Leasing Ordinance, 1868." Both were read a first time, and made Orders of tho Day for the n -xt sitting. The Speakkb stated in the Council that he had received a letter from the Clerk to the House of Representatives asking for a copy of the Votes and Proceedings to place in the Assemby library. The reply was that they were riot yet printed. Also a letter from the Provincial Auditor, relative to unauthorised expenditure, amounting to a total of £773 16s sd. A number of Notices of Motion were given, ft nd the House adjourned till the evening. EVENING SITTING. The Spbakeb took the Chair at ha'f.past seven, and opened the proceedings with prayers. Mr Daniels moved — " That a respectful address be presented 'to His Honor the Superintendent, requesting the sum of one hundred and twenty pounds to be placed on the estimates for the purpose of repairing and constructing streets in Riverton." The hon. member briefly supported his motion, stating that the streets of Riverton were nearly impassible last winter. ' Mr Longubt seconded the motion, which was agreed to. Mr Danish moved — "That a "respectful address be presented to his Honor tho Superintendent requesting tho sum of two hundred pounds (£200) to be p'acjd on the estimates for t ie purpose of repairing several culverts between Otautau Hiver and Wrey's Bush." Mr Hateit seconded the motion. Mr LuMsi>EK thought this way of voting money peculiar. It would be better for the engineer to report on. the state of the roads. If money was to be voted that way he would ask not for £20 >, but for £20W for the road to tbe Lake. It would almost appear that the Government had no idea of. money. He thought the visit to Wellington had turned their heads. He would oppose the motion unless it was shown by the Road Engineer that it was wanted. After a long discussion, in which a number of hon. members took part, the motion was put and carried.

Loa?6 was given Me Dalrymplo to allow his . -motion on the Superintendenoy to stand over till to-morrow morning's sitting. Mr Pbaesok moved that an address be presented to His Honor the Superintandent, requesting him to reserve from sale socti >>v> in Inveroargill Hundred, to the extent of H9t. lr. 38p , fo!« the purpose of forming an en'lo-.vm«nt for a College. After soun remarks o:i tiiw necessity of makinsc larga en lownjeuta for auch purposes ; he said he fixed on theso reserves because they intervened between former reserves for the 9ame purpose. For the information of tho<e who hal not the map he mentionei that this reserve was oi the a^ht hand side of the railway going to the Bluff. ■ , ? . . . Dr- TTor><jKiN3ON eeoonded the motion. He hoped it would not be the last time suoh reserves would be asked from the Council. After some remarks from other members the motion was put and carried. Mr Peabson moved that an address be presented to His Honor the Superintendent, asking him to reserve a large number of sections in Campbelltown, fornvng a total of 1.541 a. 2r. 18p., for the purpose ot forming an endowment for an Athenseum. He remarked that if we were to have democratic institutions it was necessary to educate the older as well as the younger children. Dr Hodokinson seconded the motion. A place where children of larger growth could obtain such information as qualify themselves for their duties as citizens was very desirable. Mr Dalrymple thought it a large number of acres, but concurred in the objeut.desir.ed, and had pleasure in supporting the motion. Mr LttMjiden' asked if the endowment would become immediately available? He had no doubt the hon. member who moved the motion expected to be made President of that Association when it was constituted, so he (Mr L.) expected from him some information as to ita O'igin and progress. He quite agreed that such an Institution was wanted, and would gladly rank himself as a member of the grown up childrens Association, but he really thought that reserving the land at the present time would Dot serve the object. Would not a vote of £500 be much more handy ? After some further remarks- he said lie would not oppose the motion, but would like to know when they expected to have an Athenseum established under the endowment proposed ? The Provincial Treasurer was not disposed to raise objections to the raotiouj but, at-the same time, he thought a selection of this sort ought to be left to a committee of the Council. He did not think the ground in the Campbelltown Hundreds was likply to be leased ; therefore the object in view might be postponed" for an indefinite period. Mr Calder thought the land in question would very soon become valuable for lea9e, though not for purchase. Although good land, it was swampy, without shelter, and wanted draining. He apprehended that the endowment, as the name implied, must be meant for some future period, and it was a well established fact that it was the highest wisdom of our early settlers to secure endowments for educational purposes. Referring to what had been done in Otago in this wav,he said that while it was in their power it was their duty to make such reserves. He would support the motion, but would' have liked to 'see the largest set apart for the college. ■ He supposed it vras intended to have anotVer reserve for collegiate purposes. ■ Mr Abmstbong- supported the motion. Mr Peabson lauded his hon friend, Mr Lumsden, for his anxiety to avail himself of the means of education (laughter.) He (Mr Pearson) had no objection to a money grant ; but, in the meantime, thought it was better to make the reserves when they had the power. He wished to secure education, and immigration in such a way that nothing else could obtain the land. After some statements as to the quality of the land, the motion was put and carried. NEW RIVER FERRY. JMr Clebkb in accordance with notice of motion, askod the Government whether they have taken any steps to cause a schedule of the rates of charges to be erected at the Oreti-Bridge, since last session of the Council. .He had put the question last Bession, and was told that a schedule would be prepared and advertised. That had not been done, and it ought to be attended to. The PBoviNCiAirTBEABiJBER explained that the lease of the ferry had not Been sighed "at the time of .last Council sitting, and of course the schedule was not supposed to, be finally settled between the Government' and the lessee. The respective lawyers had had it between them for a long period, and it was only signed about three weeks ago. Since then the assignee of the lessee had a consultation with the Government as to altering the rates — increasing the fare to horsemen, and taking it off foot passengers. The rates, however, had not been agreed on, but if this was not done soon, the Government would direct that the scale remain as when the contract was taken. A schedule of rates would be put up when the matter was settled one way or other. ACCOMMODATION HOUSE ON THE ROAD TO SWITZBRS. Mr Lttmsuen moved — "That an address be presented to his Hon or the Superintendent, requesting him to make a reserve of land under Clause 16 of the "Southland Waste Lands Aot^ 18t55," for an accommodation house adjacent to the Otamita Creek on the road to Switzer's, or some half-way between Gore and the Mataura crossing "on the road to that Goldfield." He brought forward the motion from a conviction that such a house was much wanted. There had been one which he visited before it was burned down, when he saw a great number of people in it, who had come to enjoy its Bhelter. He had been at the Land Office, and finding there wa-i no reserve for such a house, and with the view of having one made, he brought it before the CouncD. Mr Clebke seconded the motion, which was put and carried. . INVERCARGILL CEMETERY. Mr Clebke then moved — " That a respectful address be presented to His Honor the Superintendent, to cause the sum of £250 to be placed , on the Estimates for putting into proper condition the Invercargill Cemetery." The hon member said he wns induced to move in this matter because it was work that could be proceeded with during the winter months. The Road Engineer had said that £250 would be sufficient for present purposes, with what had been' already voted. The hon. member said the state of the Cemetery was most indecent — interring their friends there was putting them into a watery grave. The Provincial .Treasurer seconded the motion. It vas a really necessary work, and as the Government hnd now the funds at their disposal it should be done. Mr Dalbtmple said that £250 might improve the Cemetery, but not put it in a proper condition. It was 'in' a sad 'state.' Mr Basstian agreed with the last remark. He would not be laid in it of his own will, and if tho £250 was not sufficient to make efficient work it would be better to remove it altogether. Mr AbMstbono coincided with these views. At preseut it was like burying our dead at sea to place them in the Cemetery. Mr Clebke had made it his business to see what would be sufficient to drain the placo effectually, or at least enough of it to last for several yoar.<", and he found that the sum named would be : sufficient. For it, six -or eight acres which wonld last for several, years, could be drained. To drain the whole would take an enormous expense. The Pbovincial Treasures stated that perhspß few were aware that when the town was laid out the surveyor neglected to lay out a Cemetery. A meeting! was held, at which it was agreed to bury near the Puni Creek, within the town boundary* 9 Ultimately the present site was chosen, from 'ts proximity to town. Some thought of the tiand-hills ; but the sand got blown away, aa might be seen at the Bluff and fiiverton. That being the case, we must have a clay soil-, and drain it. '.Now that so many interments had been made he thought it would be folly to remove. The Speaker — I think a good wide drain all iound wi 1 be sufficient, and also act as a fence.

Pboyinouii Tbbastjrse— That ia the intention; Mr Speaker. The motion waa then put and carried. TEE ORtaTI RAILWAY. M>" T^nvsTONu resumed the debate on this j qiiea:io>i by remarking that the finishing of this j !in • at tlie earii -st dato h»d been always affirmed to be a desirable ob)?ot. He would not recapitulate all the arguments advanced for it Personally he still held to the opinion that if finished it would be a graat boon to the Provinoo, particularly the settlers in the New Hiver district, and il completed it would divert a great deal of the heavy traffic from the. roads, which would make them be kept more cheaply in repair. The- land sales also would be augmented, and settlement facilitated. Farmers in selecting ground generally asked "how far is it from a market, how far from Invercargill, or a sea-port ?" and w re the railway finished, their question then would be " how far is it from- Winton ?" &o. They would then be within reach of a good port, and be able to send their produce-to some market. The finishing of the railway would also employ a deal of labor, and augment the customs revenue. The proposal of cash in lieu" of land payments must be approved of. He thought it a first rate pror posal, for which the Superintendent and Executive deserved credit. A!s to borrowing money, he considered that : the next generation, ; if snddled with the cost, would reap the benefit. It appeared to him that seeing the General Government had the power to issue debentures, it would be advisable for the Provincial Government to try if it could not be done. He thought the Government ought to see their way clearly to finishing this work without abandoning the common roads. No doubt hon members had fresh in their minds the miseries of our first railway speculations. The spirit of the community was soured and bent entirely, at the thought of them ; he liopeJ the Government would see its way clearly now, without encroaching on the fund? for roads. He was anxious to see the railway completed, but could not go into any scheme that would sacrifice the roads. Many of these will b» gooJ for some ten miles out of. town, and it was a question with him whether the Government i. should go ; further. The expense of cartage, &c, ev«n on a good road, ■ was too high —it was considered so, even in the old country which never could have been cultivated had not railways come into existence. He would therefore support the measure, if a guarantee were made that Government would not encroach on the funds for common roads, otherwise he neither could nor would support them. Mr Basstian wished to see the report by Mr Balfour on the ra lway. The Provincial Tbeastteeb said it was a neglect of his in not having it. Mr Balfour was sent by the General Government to- satisfy them on certain points, and it was to be presumed his report was favorable from the fact of the 60,000 acres being granted. Mr Dalrymple made some remarks after which, • - - ■■• — ~ . „-. The Provincial Treasurer said the question was whether to complete the railway by cash or land payments. If imformation was wanted as todetails, the engineer wasin townandwould be prepared to give it. • Mr M'Cltjre explained that one reason why the reports were not on the table was because there were many matters in them which it would be injudicious to make known at present, for instance contractors would know at what each piece of work was estimated. He would like to have a select Committee appointed. There was no desire on the part of the Government to conceal anything except where it would be injnrious to the public to let it be made known. Mr LTJM3DEN was glad there were no objections to a select committee, and proceeded to auyocate cautionary steps, as it would not -be wise to go' into an extensive work without knowing where the cash was to come from. It appeared to him they were treading on very dangerous ground. He was afraid a rash policy had been bequeathe 1 by a former Government, as well as finishing these works. It was rash to go into an affair costing £56,000 with only £29,000 in hand. He would not consent to sacrifice the whole roads for this iron one, or railway. He went over the items of expected receipts, and showed that some of them would not be available — the consolidated revenue, which was already impounded,- so it was no use in talking of recouping out of it. On the fact that certain large land sales had taken place within the last two years, Government grounded an expectation that they would continue. He denied this would be the case. The largest purchaser was one gentleman who could not be always ! buying. He denied that there wa9 much agrieulI tural operations to sustain a railway ; — the privilege of grazing was too highly valued, and the land wa3 only bought for that purpose by capitalists, and it wa3 foolish to expect an increase of population from these land sales. The population was decreasing ("No, no," from Provincial Treasurer), and the Council in these circumstances should move very cautiously. He pointed to the promptitude with which the Dunedin authorities looked to any want in the matter of roads, and thought ours should do the same, particularly to Switzer's, which was one of the best strings ; to our bow. He waa afraid if the Government went into railways they would be deprived of the necessary means for roads. The hon member concluded a long address by moving for a select cmvnittee with power to call for persons and papers. Mr Calder supported the original question. He could see no advantage in the appointment of a select committee. He had discovered four or five months ago that debt as stated by the Colonial Treasurer exceeded the actual de^t by upwards, of £40,000, and on the return of the Superintendent from Wellington it leaked out that a sum which the Province owed the General Government was charged twice, and that the Colonial Treasurer had a legal right to uso his authority in borrowing to the extent of the excess. If it ware so used, it clearly belonged to the Province, and at once he saw a way of escape from the highly objectionable plan of land payments, as formerly sanctioned by the Council. The case, he thought, had not as yet been fairly stated. The Council had already decided to complete the line by land payments, had further authorised surveys, at acostof LIOOO j or thereby, and instead, as it wore, carrying out its instructions from the Coun.il, the Governmenthad taken prompt advantage of the favorable opportunity afforded by the concession of the General Government, and paused for the assent of the House to that course.. It did wisely in', this to reconsider the plan of payment. The old proposal was to finish the whole line, so that the quesiion of tenders being submitted to the Council involved a heavy margin, which would ne'essarily be taken advantage of by colonial tenderers. The present proposal went direct to the market for material which could be arranged for either through the Governin -ut l).t : r-.;>r3, or its London agent, or both. The Gow.n.uuint did not contemplate the finishing of the. whole line.;. at once — it proposed doing one thing at a time ; therefore the present plan was the less rash. Now that the L 27,000 was given, he did not see why the balance of the excess referred to should be withheld ; and no doubt when the time came, and it was found requisite the balance would be forthcoming. If he was. correct, we would thus be getting money for this work ; judging from present quotations of Now Zealand securities at something like 5 pe r cent. It should not encroach one penny on funds available for roads, and it should be observed that before the plant could be procured, say in January or February next; the whole amount necessary for its payment, would bo accumulated. The Government need not in the manner proposed send horn c a large sum of money as many members supposed -all it had to do was to make a deposit and obt tin a credit from its hankers, arranging to pay to a special account the Interest arid sinking duo to General Government monthly aa it accruod. He did not wonder at members feeling reluctant to empty the Treasury under the idea, that the money was to be dispatched in a summary manner, but very little indeed is how requisite, aud that little now- on hand if the Governm ent did its business properly. The Government had said that the additional charges for v? orking

> the line would b© veiy. lunall, and x the House thought that it would be verj stupid indeed to throw away auoh a liber* offer. It certainly added to our debt, but thai was <rrearly to be pre^rred to giving away th< 1 be«t of our land at 15<« per aore, as was. said ' would be the case. Suwlv t^-fl nlan now before ' tha rf.-vu,,n?i was muoh to ha prefer*«d to that. Tl ' 9aemed to him the whole matter was. shall we ' oarry on the works on the former conditions, or on ' what seemed to him a mare reasonabla and coon- ' omi«*«l pla»«»P [ Mr A.BM3TKOV& thought there waa a grea< 1 dread in the minds of members that the Govern- ' ment would undertake to carry on works before they saw where th« cost w»e to come fronv H> understood that no works would be gone inte until the Government was perfectly assurod t ! \ey oould be successfully completed, as to the roa*l& it wa9 clear little ooul 1 be done till next, snmmer He thought there whs a greater probability 'of ' the money being ready for roads if the railway was contracted, than if it was not. Referring to the . ordinances pa99ed, which, if not negatived by the Superintendent, wore repealed next session, he -hooed the Council would notpersist in the peurilo game of building houseß of cards, just to throw them down again. •■...-.:■. .. - The Provincial Tbeasubbr sari that Borne hon. members seemed to be under the impression that the Government intended asking a vote this session. They forzot : that the arrangement waa made to order tne plant from Britain, and by the time it arrived, who could say they misht not be in funds* to make not merely -a railway, but the roads ? . If they took advantage of the" present confession, and "got the plant, it was all that was contemplated at present. At next session he would ask a vote for railways in conjunction with roads, or take them seperately. Then again it was not essential that the whole, line bt finishe 1 at one time. They might buy iron rails to the Muknrewa only, if they had not enough money to go further. A member had said that it .was a rash policy of the Government. The Government, he affirmed, had tried to do its best for the province ; in his opinion had succeeded in obtaining a favorable concession, and he would blame any government who got it and did not come before the Council to obtain its. opinion. That was all the Government were doing. If this scheme was declined the Government had no alternative but full back on the land payment plan. (No.no). After answering some objections, he said it would be impracticable to place the tenders for railway material, &c, before the Council, owing to the fluctuations of the markets in Britain. Their order would be a very small one to some houses, and could be shipped in a month from the date of the .order. . . The matter of freight was a difficulty which would have to be seen to. If at all practicable, it would also be contracted for— -at all events tenders would be asked for. But it was doubtful if anyone would take the whole, as there was great difficulty in getting tonnage for iron rails. Tenders for the whole might be received, but if not, their- agent would have to.be entrusted _with it. Tie "thought with an hon member, that the Engineer's estimate (L 8.250) was high, but it was intended to include all charges, and he,i believed that L6OOO would really cover it. Mr Cttthbehtson said that in bringing on a measure of such importance, it was reasonably to be supposed the Government? would give the Council all possible information. This had been done. The reason* given by the. Government for going on with these works were not satisfactory. It had been contended that the Council having affirmed the principle that railways were desirable, it was still found, under whatever alterations, to continue to do so. They seemed to forget that the scheme now was very different, from what it was before. The consent of the Council was given previously, on condition that land should be taken in payment, under the belief that it could not otherwise turn the land to acccount. He presumed the question was opened up afresh, and they were bound to consider it well. After referring to what had been said by other members, he gave it as his opinion that only the settlers in Winton, aud vicinity of the line, would reap any benefit. Those at Wallacetown would have none, because they all knew that when a team was loaded, a few miles more or less made very little difference. Ai to payr ing itself, and assisting to make the Bluff line pay, that would be a novelty. The feasibility of completing the line he thought simply hinged on the land sales during the next twelve or fifteen months. He would have been glad if the Government had come and say "we. have the wnere withal to complete this work ;"• but this was not the case. .The remarks in a certain book about the folly' of building without being able ,to finish, might in this case be remembered, and it would be better to " sit down and count the cost." He differed from the opinion that the line opened, land sales would be increased. If they imagined the squatters were going to purchase more land he would say they were grossly deceived. He could not confirm the resolution. He thoaght the Provincial Engineer should have been instructed to prepare a report on the present condition of the line, because on that depended, in a great measure, the' propriety of finishing. 'Che line- finished, would facilitate settlement it had been said. He would like to see when and where that occurred. It might, where places were inaccessible, but that was not the case- in Southland, and supposing they did so they might be paying too dear for their whistle. He concluded by supporting the amendment. Dr HpoffzrHsoN hail been waiting patiently to hear all that could be said, and he found that many were disposed to open up the whole question of railways again instead of keeping to the question before the House. That question simply was — 4s the plan now * submitted — payment by cash instead of land — one they should adopt ? After listening to what hai been said, he had come to the conclusion that the measure now brought before them wai the be3t in all the circumstances. After some further remarkß, he said that instead of depriving them of money for other public works it would create them. They had also to remember that it would iucrease the value of our present railway property. Though our debt was increased, it would not therefore bo a dead loss. I'ha railway would always be of some value, though he was not disposed to place such a 1 high figure upon it as some of its supporters. f_Want of space compels us to condense the remarks of the speakers who followed.] . ■' '* > '"■ ;■ Mr Daniels would oppose the motion if it was going to take the money from roads ; but if this was not the case, he would support the motion- '■'■' Mr Lumsdbn withdrew his amandmant. Remarks made had satisfied him that the subject would come before the 'louse again. ■'. . : ' „."t. Mr Cuthbkbtson called attention to the fact that the works done on the rail way were not deteriorating in value. „ ; Mr Pearson, in a long speech, supported the motion. Mr. Babstian thought the railway in question was to go nowhere and bring back nothing. There would be no money for roads if the measure was carried. He would oppose the motion. Mr Dalrympub opposed the motion. Mr Clerks also opposed the motion. .-■ ' Mr M'Clube replied to the objections made against railways, and the House divided with the following result — Ayes. — Messrs Lumsden, Ross, Swale, Blacklock, Daniels, Pearson, Hodgkinson, Calder, Johnstone; Hately, Armstrong, .Longuer, and M'Clure, 13. Noes. — Mfssrs Basstian, Howell, Dairy rnpld, Cuthbertsou, and Clerke, 5. The House then adjourned at 11.45 p.m.