CENTRALISM v. PROVINCIALISM.

Southland Times, Issue 921, 23 March 1868, Page 2

CENTRALISM v. PROVINCIALISM.

Dshate during the January Session of the Provincial Councfl of Southland, onthe desiraiaHty of altering the present form of Government in New Zealand, by } the aboHbon of Provinces, and substitution of Connties, with Boards possessing purely Municipal powers ; all legislative functions being performed by the General Assembly. Mr PeabsOS rose and said— Mr Speaker, i>efo» moving the resolutions which stand in jay __me on the Order Paper, it wiU be necessary for me to detain the House some little time, while I explain my reasons for introducing the motion. The subject of local self-government can be viewed in two «p«h, general and locaL The fcrt as regards ihTcolony as a whole, the second as to that section of it caUed the Province of SouthW. I wUI first treat of it in ite general bearing. Most fconor^ble member* must be aware that at the farth of the colony it was found impracticable to colonize it from a common centre, the physical conformation of the two islands precluded the posribaay of such, with the meagre resources iad imperfect appliances then at the command of the General Government, internal commumction «« impossible-^that by the sea-board w» ancerfcan, fediousj and dangerous, being earned on almost entirely by small coasters. Thus Tarions settlements wereplanted at different points on the seaboard, most of them by private enterpnae Soon it became apparent that it was .necessary tohare reeouwe to some general power *ac* like aU young British communities, however WrHKor A« e « reiw of tbe P 0 " 0 " rf self : S °' maut, a clamour was raised fora constitution "Whoever has re*d the Constitution Act cannot but conclude that the intention vras to clothe the prions Provincial Governments with purely -municipal powers ; not create them sovereign and independent states, with a federation snmlar to fiat of the United States ;-if any doubt exist sm this point, it must be removed by the perusal «f the correspondence between Sir George Grey sod the Secretary for the Colonies on the subject. Unfortunately, the Constitution Act came into operation during aa M«v» Sir George Grey had left,. CoL Brown* had not amved. At -^e^rst session of the Assembly the Superintendent* cf the various provinces; most of whom i»J been returned, accompanied by an army of Jagri officials* Provincial Treasurers, &c., determined, and not unnaturally, that whatever was ifa_ spirit q£ the new Constitation, they would srro&tetv themselves as «-*h local power as possible. ARWingaetnatedbythesamefeehng, ■Tbecame a question oi «*ta>laccommodahonm other words, to use one of the woe and «w» of a canny nation, "Scratch me, and I wdl xewtchjou." And they asrat^d qpe another U such purpose, that the i&&*M <&> ■<**■*. totion was entirely contravened, This ■■wqr ex, however, ki is invariably Jhe , c«ej>rodi^ » consequence bppbsiteto Oiei^i^nt^ «od sober politicians, unwilling to;gra^ Jhe Hani for locti^^^^&S^^^^^i, feeemme jdarmed, &nice the^ Gegt^^^X A***i created. At the session of 1858 it haS assumed; an organisation which enabled it to the General, some of the most impotent powera; had been seized by t&L^ Govennnentt. ; Since then the battle ha».'.him\:9a£^A-^'.'^i'i -varying success, till I einberefy triist the victo^ in favor of Centralism will shortly be : de :; fcennined by the Assembly. Now^ .Sn-, ,'it; appears to me that the worst phase <K . _f Provincialism is this constant fettle in ii&\ Cte»erall*:gi3latare. McmV» g«> A*? %:^°| Assembly, not with the view of «ilm^aiid V^ T passionately legislating for the good », » whole, bat with tlfe avowed purpwe of seenr-, ing as much ok the loaves wad fisiwas^siffl^ ior their reVjpreetivfrprbviricei. Tbuaan Assembly h -which »ocMdl> md iritellMtuilly issupdri^anyjj legislate body in the Ansb^iVlS^np. a graced \<j the unseemly spectacle of what is termed "log rolling;" and to long as ProvindaH«n exist*, s©lw_ will tbe degradation continue. It is the xatsml consequence of the system. Every a^kr in W< Uington feel, that the eyes of his cons rts^my are fixed on him r to i*e what he wiU Zo-uoi for the general wilfare, bufc lheir indi--rid^l interests. He knows what twiatment he ia. to expect wton he returns to them. If any doubt on th» yoifat exists in his »«nd. it has been dc*rrx***& by the conduct ef the people in a proving where wcently the disgraceful exhibition of popular injo.tke was paraded a -ai»rt oroe of the ableft politicians in New Zealand, a man of undoubted integrity, nnimiv.chsWe probity. I refer to Major R.ehardson smhi* return to Otago from the last session bufc <me of the Assembly. And what was the reason ior thi* petty ebulitkra of spite? At Uiat time Oanuiaki had the honor of being represented by Mjgar Richardson in the Assembly, and because iH^ayiepwentafr* of that province, consulted

the interests of his constituency, and, at the same time, the welfare of the colony, by taking an enlarged and colonial, instead of a contracted and provincial view, he was subjected to treatment which, whUe in reality conferring honor on him, seeing from whence it came, covered the province "with disgrace; while the only excuse the people of Otago could possibly have for expressing an opinion on the Major's conduct, was the feet that he had invested considerable sums of money in the Province, and had previously devoted his time and talents to the conduct of its pubhc affairs, having filled the highest positions in its government to its great advantage. Now, although such treatment could have little effect on a man like Major Richardson, unfortunately, men of equal firmness and independence are not in the majority, and consequently such conduct on the part of a people has a demoralising tendency on its Representatives ; it turns them into political hacks to be ridden by the popular passions and vices. Therefore, I say the principle of Provinciahsm is a vicious one, and deserves to be swept away. The amount of political power presently intrusted to the hands of the provinces is too great, and is Uable to be abused by every charlatan whose sole' stake in the province consists of having a few hundred pounds of floating acceptances which he is prepared to dishonor at the first fa>orable opportunity. It exercises a vicious effect on the General Government. No premier can afford to saU the ship of state to the best advantage for the colony; if he wishes to retain office he must consult every provincial breeze, the stronger the wind the more must he deviste from the straight path. Thus, the interests of the weak are sacrificed to satisfy the cravings of the powerful, each province looking to its members to obtain : as much as possible at the expense of its neighbors. So fer from proving a band of union, each Bession of the Assembly proves it is one of discord aud separation. So far from such a system tending to make New Zealand a grwt colony, sdl experience has provijd that the reverse is sure to ensue. Teh years experience was sufficient to prove to the United States of Ameiica that to be great they must be thoroughly united, more so than they had at first contemplated, hence the Constitution Act superseded the articles of confederation. To quotci vMr Anthony TroUopes* words on this subject, in his work on Horth America—" But the Compact beftveen the different States, made by the articles of confederation, and | the mode of national procedure therein enjoined,^ were found to be inefficient for the wants, of a people, who, to be great, must be united in feet as well as name. . The theory of the most democratic among the Americans of that day was in favour of self-go ver nment carried to Seif-^overnihent was the Utopia whicli they had^ deifemecTto revise, and they. were: um*BUfag to Vd&i^ t,he reiaUty of the 'of^the nidividustl . statea by any of "power in one head, or in one „or in one* 4«t of for the iAA^ii^AS^^A^^^l '**» l7B^' "**". it AjAi& found that ?a>t»nge¥&c>^;6f^na^naUtyTT^ indispensable, if *n£ natioafil g^S^SM vt^ toYbe regarded "at^d-JaHKeW^e^^ the •«fi^s;of ciMl^<^■a<wi. , * ■ Tliey were giants :in 'tjj«j»e Says, n&t .Men who had : throwii; ' WAtine Aft** a°f l^lJ^^, P l^" 16 'nitkih ih 'tH^^il-V wh6"h^e*medVthe first lessbn :in govenmiehtj that of governing ■ "tHeiif '. owhVgissions and prejudices j 'wlio 'vfitJi ifor loleal self-govern j had the good sense M^ic^wl^e" tl^^ure and be content to n^M'tHeir rndtviduSr aggrandizement for the WtMt Wti& nlrtioh, atid; admit that the "." Uctors V^i»weire so toiig only as the bundle i^f^iHcks wm . &fn^ miited. If such men as Avmm^,^^^^ 111 ' Madison, HamUrtdti ■ aWF'rankiini le_rned from experience that the nation to be be united, and were cor.. .Ui'^wn^M. rights for the public weal, I thint we cannot do better than be guided by their opinion. There are not many statesmen in New Zealand who can be considered their superiors. And markyou, Sir, at the time of the confederation, the rights of the individual states were dearly defined, while the powers of tlie President and Congress were as distinctly marked. Here we hate a Constitution Act wliich can be and is read in a different spirit by diflerent factions. The centrliets say the proTraces never were intended to enjoy any powers greater than municipal ones ; this the provincialists deny. Thus the Assembly is the arena for » continued conflict, the one trying to repress the already exaggerated powers of the provinces, the other to obtain stiU greater. The consequanee ii im instabUity about tho Central Government which operates unfavorably commercially on every portion of the.icohwy. f Ihe

system also engenders a feeling, of! jeatay between each province ; instead of entering-" into a firm league of friendship with each other for their common defence, the security of thenliberties, and their mutual and general welfare," experience has shown that the misfortunes of apart is a subject of gratulation to the whole. When this province was in the throes of its difficulties the whole. press of NewZealand was jubilant,; even the little abortion Marlborpugh had its tiny kick at us. If such are the feelings resulting from the provincial system the idea that New Zealand will ever be the Great Britain of the South is a chimera to be indulged in by romancists. I have not introduced the subject of a eeperate government for the two Islands, simply because the present condition of the colony, its financial arrangements, preclude the possibility of a separation, and I hold that at the present Conjuncture of affairs it is of imperative importance that we should deal practically with the question. I shall be told by my hon. friend the member for Riverton, (Dr Hodgkinson), that in America a similar form of local self-government hss existed for years, that it is a cheap and effective form of administration, and that the states are very jealous of any interference with their rights on the part of the General Government. In the first placo each state started as free, independent, and sovereign within itß own dominions, with the rights and duties of the General and Local Governments clearly defined ; we -did not ; consequently I cannot Consider the analogy by any means perfect. As regards its "moral success, toagain quote Mr Trollope, "It is well known that politicians find their way into the Senate and into the Chamber of Representatives solely with a view to the loaves and fishes. The very word ' politician ' is foul and unsavoury th roughout the states, and means rather a political blackleg than a political patriot. It is useless tb blink this matter -in speaking of the politics and., policy of the United States. The corruption of the" venal politicians of the nation stinks aloud in the nostrils of all men." If such is the result of democratic institutions in America, where thoy have had a fair and lengthened trial, I, as a humble unit of the common wealth, of New' ■ Zealand, decline accepting America as my model. The America of to-day, and that of Washington's time; are as widely apart -as are the two poles asunder. And I believe itis her form of government which has compassed 80 lamentable an end to her bright day dream of 1777. And now, Sir, to treat the subject in its local phase. As I have once before remarked in this House, this province began iferotiiig career raider ; more favorable auspices' than any other province in New Zealand. The lands are fertile, its grazing , capabilities aire unsurpassed By any in New j Zealand, the natttrW <#___% -__-ttfO-- of the country aided in cheap _.<Jadmakmg, the main lines heing along flat lands.' We have had such a number of chances thrown at' our feet one woidd feel inclined to believe in the old legend, that some good fairy had presided at the birth of the province, and come to our assistance in every difficulty j but we would not. Although I have little hesitation in asserting that this province is even now in a more flourishing and stable condition than most of the provinces of New Zealand— indeed, second to none, I maintain that it ought, if properly handled, to be in an infinitely superior condition to that of any; and I believe that the system of Provincialism is the cause of ita not being so. I will first review its present financial position. I will take as my basis the Report of the Committee of the General Assembly on the subject of the construction of the Northern and Eastern lines of Railway in the province. I find it estimated that "The amount payable on Provincial -Debt is ... £27,000 " Colonial expenditure, Pro- .. •racially charged about ... 8000 £35,000 "Receivable by Colony, being half probable consolidated revenue ... ••• -620,000 "Pasturage rente ... 8000 — — 28,000 «' Probable annnal deficit, to be defrayed but of land Fund before Southland can receive any thing froni that 7000 source ••• ••• ««w This for interest of debt and General Government purposes. The expenses of provincial administration is estimated at £12,000 a-year, while the provincial revenue raised by the Council is supposed to yield £9000. Thus at least £10,000 min. accrue from land sales before a penny can be expended on roads or other public works. If the land sales progress favorably, well; if not, we must shut up the public offices and __t^*tho key to the Colonial Secretary. It is a matter for your consideration whether you concede the propo«t_M> at once, or remain to ho forced into it. While I fe»

convinced that during the present year, the land fundwiU folly realise our anticipations, I am equaUy convinced that the attempt to continue the Provincial form of Government, with an uncertain andfluctuating revenue, wiUprove afaalure. And now poUticaUy, taking a retrospect of the past, two questions present themselves. Can the Provincial CouncU do any good? Has it done harm to the community ? As to the first, the Council got alarmed at the conduct of the late Superintendent (Dr Menzies), during its sixth session in, 1864, and took its. first stand. It passed during that session an Executive Council Ordinance, curtailing and defining the powers of the Superintendent, also a Representation Ordi-' nance, for the purpose of appealing to the country, in reference to the Superintendency. This was the most important work of that session, one to which the CouncU had devoted its most earnest attention j the result being that the Superintendent took no notice of the wishes of the Couicil, further than stating that as he disagreed vith it on those questions he would not forward the Billa for the Governor's assent. At the text Bession of the Council, the Superintendent met it without an Executive. Fair, just, and Übemd overtures were made to him by the Council, lut he declined them, and determined to act independently, and in direct opposition to their wishts j which was evinced by his retaining in the pubic service officers whose salaries wera not voted ia the Appropriation Act, passed by the Counci with the view of reducing official expenditure. Thus, it would appear that a Provincial Council is powerless to do good even if it wishes it. Nor is the case of Southland peculiar. Almost every Superintendent in New Zealand ha*y at one time or other, set his CouncU at defiance. Profitless for good has it proved itself baneful for harm ? In the time oi onr greatest depression, when it seemed useless to dream of finishing the Northern line. of RaUwayi our good fairy came to our rescue. Before the Bluff Harbor and InvercargiU line was opened, we had two offers from a contractor, one to finish the Northern line for a lease of it and the Bluff Line, the other for working the latter, which offers I wUI now read. At the last sesrion but one of the late Provincial CouncU, I moved for the appointment of a Committee to enquire into these offers, to see if it waa not feasible to have constructed by private enterprise a work which the Government was unable to perform. I nominated the ablest and most efficient men in the House. To my surprise the* motion-was lost^ Tterwonderftd-oDtasene^the-astontadinglacapaeity vrhich could refose to entertain such a proposition staggers belief. It has been since stated in excuse by some of those who opposed it, that thet nwtum irda Itfcrttgtfe forward *t the end of the session. Uhe statement, Sir, is as false as the judgment which rejected the proposition. The CouncU met on the 14th of January, 1867 ; I brought forward the motion on the 17th, and the House was not prorogued titt the 2nd of February. Two or three evenings were spent twaddling about an Education Ordinance, whioh every member must have known would, if passed, prove abortive, simply because the Government had not the funds wherewith to carry out its provisions ; whUe a matter of such importance as tha construction of a great public work, at no cost to the state, was passed over as of too Uttle import Had there been no impediment in the shape of aProvincial CouncU, but an agent appointed' by the General Government, this trork, which wUI now cost 60,000. acres of land* would have been done for nothing. I ana inclined to blame the Government for not accepting the offer without consulting th» CouncU in the matter, but you have so bullied and worried your Executives with low imputations* and base insinuations, that they dare not dogood even if they have the desire. Had I been a member of the Government at the time Sat: offer was made, I would not have troubled myself with consulting you, bat have done the province a service in despise of the CoundL Well, Sir, having lost this chance, our good fairy, did. not desert us. The present Superintendent,. Mr Taylor, after a long correspondence, induced . the General Government to sanction the allocation of land for the completion of the Northern*, line of raU, and the construction of the Eastern, line to the banks of the Mataura. Again tor Provincial Conncil proved a stumbling-block ta 1 tiie onward progress and development of tha province. The few squatting members in the Council twisted the opposition round their fingers, and " email blame to fchem "* I say. They defended the interests of their elasr, and tha result was what it always wili be, feat education^ and intellect got the better of ignorance and incapacity. Thus we lost tiie opportunity of permanently opening: up our interior; «udmveitmg our lands for our own benefit instead o£' having them taken from us to* pay -the debts off. iow neighbors, ar in the case c* the province o

Auckland recently, to pay whose debt we have been mulcted to the extent of upwards of £5000. I think Sir, that as fer as we are are concerned, I have proved that a Provincial CouncU is power- j less to do good, and powerful to do harm, i Whatever may be said of the older and original provinces the new ones have proved abortions. Nature resents any attempt to develop animal life under conditions such as it had not intended. A French physiologist confined some tadpoles under water in the dark. Removed from the natural stimulus of light, they did not develop legs and arms at the proper period of their growth, and become frogs, they swelled and spread into gigantic tadpoles. As it was with the Frenchman's tadpoles, so has it happened with the new provinces j at the time when they ought to have developed into frogs they became nothing but' huge tadpoles. Commercially, the Provincial system is a curse. It engenders animosities which prove detrimental to private enterprise. I know of instances in this town where storekeepers daTe not record their votes at an election for fear of losing customers, having learnt by bitter experience, that to take part in a local election ensures a lpss in trade, SociaUy it is a curse. . It sows discord and disunion in private life, where such, would . not otherwise enter, and after all it is the apple of the Dead Sea, rotten at its core.: Lord Brougham with his usual perspicacity, in his work on the British constitution, has tersely and aptly described this prejudicial state of . feeling. He says: — "It may be doubted if the existence of a small community is of itself desirable for the improvement of society. Uudoubteily, great pubUc spirit may be expected to prevail,- and the feelings of patriotism to be excited, or 1 rather be habitual with the people, each individual of whom feels his own weight and importance, instead of being merged in the countless multitude of a larger state. But this'advantage is more than-counter-balanced by the restlesness which arises among aU the people, when each takes as much interest in the State's concerns as if they were liis own. There is thus produced both an over zeal, a turbulent demeanor, a fierce and grsping disposition hardly consistent with the.peace of the community, and also a proportionate inattention to men's private affairs inconsistent with the. dictates of prudence, as weU as a disregard of the domestic ties equaUy inconsistent with amiable character, and with the charities of private life." Under the provincial syStem-werare told we^ have' a responsible Government, this Sir: I~denj*f Of aU irresponsible despots, a Superintendent iB perhaps the most complete. For four years he can do what he pleases tp set the CouncU. and people at defiance, and both are powerless to re* dress their grievances. Superintendents have spent money withont appropriation, have misappropriated funds from their legitimate purpose, have set their Councils at defiance, and have done so with impunity ; and if they play their cards properly, just before the expiration of their term of office, they stand a good chance of being re-elected. Nor is a Provincial Executive a responsible body, simply because there are so few men in . the CouncU either capable or willing to undeatake the duties ; thus to find two Executives is almost impossible, to obtain one tolerable one sufficiently difficult, however much they may have mismanaged matters, their faults are condoned owing to the difficulty of obtaining successors. In our own case for instance, at the last session of the last CouncU the Executive was turned out of office and stigmatised as imbecUe incompetent and untrustworthy. The opposition enter office, and in three months prove themselves imbecile, in competent and untrustworthy by getting helplessly involved ; not as they state. -from having accepted the estimates of." their predecessors, but from sheer want of business capacity, which could not distinguish the difference between an appropriation and the actual possession of the money, and spent it simply because it was on the estimates. We are therefore in this position, either we have tp keep in office the present Executive, or to replace them with one which has proved itself worse. And this is responsible Government." But the most amusing part of the business is that whUe you are fuming and fretting as to who should be Provincial Treasurer, it is in reality the manager of the Bank -who decides the question. Governments, like private individuals, must have credit occasionaUy j and though you say who you want as Provincial Treasurer, if -the manager of the Bank wont, the matter is at ah end. My friend, the member for InvercargiU, Mr Lumsden, stated in extenuation of the misdeeds of the Executive of whioh he formed so brilliant a member, that they get could; no credit from the Bank. No, Sir, I should think they could not. The manager of a Bank is Bupposed to have a head upon his shoulders. Itmay be urged that thia state of things could be remedied by a dissolution, by which a fresh, batch

of men could be obtained. This I deny, and cireomstances bear me out in my assertion. Before the last dissolution, I stated that it would be useless, for that almost every member would be returned again if he chose to stand, and as Mr Merryman says iv the circus, "here we are again.' We started from a given point, we have been aU round the circle, and we have reached exactly where we started from, the same Superintendent and the same Provincial Treasurer, and here we intend to remain, Sir. I wUI now, Sir, proceed to the digestion of my resolutions. The first three require no particular comment, and have m reality been already accepted by the CouncU, when Mr Cuthbertsoh's resolutions were passed. The fourth wiU require some little explanation The Provincial system abolished, and counties subdivided into road districts substituted, I propose one Board for each county in Ueu of the present Provincial Councils, the duties of which would consist in the exercise of, and supervision over, all purely municipal matters, it would rate each road district according to a scale fixed by law, would apportion to each a proportion of any funds which might accrue to each county after the ilrtere&t for d§bt, the expenses for government and the construction of the main lines of road had been deducted, in accordance with what each district raised by local assessment, having at the same time in this supplementation a due regard to the amount of public money which had been spent in each district prior to the change in the form of government. The. Chairman of the Board would correspond with the General Government on aU subjects of internal administration requiring the attention of a central authority, such as immigration, education, &c. I propose that this Board should be elected, say for four years, in a manner simUar to that in which the Superintendents of the original provinces are, by the whole body of tho electors in the county, not by each district. By this means I think you would obtain, a better body as a whole, and there would not be any local jealousies or prejudices to warp their judgment j nor would each member feel in duty bound to obtain for the district which returned .liim as much money as possible, to the detriment of a more necessitous district, for they would be returned by the whole county. Thus all this scrambling which now takes place would be avoided. A proportion of the members tp retire annuaUy, though eUgible for re-election ; the Chairman, he who had been the largest number of votes, to retire with the last batch, and be also eUgible for reelection. Thus the people: would by the frequent changes find out who were the most capable men, and be enabled to retain their services, instead of having their hands tied for four years, as at present. The Chairman would require to be paid, as his duties would necessitate his constant attention : he would have one clerk, and a road surveyor which nee dbe the whole municipal staff. The other members of the Board would require to meet perhaps quarterly. If the chairman was competent, their work would be cut and dry for them, and the sittings would not require to occupy at most, two days, inasmuch as their time would not be fritterred away by attempting abortive legislation. They could be paid a. pound a day. This, Sirj whUe I beUeve it would, prove a more effective, would be a more economical sys-^ tern .than a -Provincial Council, Road Boards, and municipalities, with aU the paraphernalia of clerks, assessors, and surveyors. As regards the next resolution, I think few wUI deny that the poUce and gaols should be under the control of a Central Government, and removed from local pressure, if they are efficiently to perform their duty. I do not say the expense wiU be less, but I say that every poUceman in the discharge of his duty has palpably placed before him the fact that if he prove obnoxious in the discharge wliich he is sworn to perform to some person possessing local influence, or having friends in Council, very different to those of Arthur Helps, he renders himself liable either to be dismissed, or to liave his pay cut down. I cast flo reflection on pur ewn police force, wliich, I belie ye, is in as highly efficient a condition as any in the colony, but human nature is human nature. It is not long since that, in a neighboring province, the police were instructed by the local authorities to withstand and oppose the wishes of the Central Government ; * a position which, to say the least of it, is. anomalous. Besides, should a province get into difficulties, and be unable to pay the police and gaol, the forces become disorganised, the servant becomes master of the situation, not to mention the absurdity of a warrant from one province becoming valueless on crossing an imaginary line into a neighboring province. As regards the^ Land and Survey Departments, I hold that of aU Departments they should be freed from local pressure. The Waste Land Board 'should be placed in a position to stand between the Government • and the people, wliich it is difficult to obtain where the salaries are voted

locaUy by some of the very men on wLose cases the Board has to adjudicate. It places the; members of the Bo:ird in an unfair position. As to the Survey Department, most members wUI recollect the strictures and resolutions ' passed by the CouncU on the Waste Land Board, by interested persons, on the expense of the system of survey. Of course the Board stood firm, and would aUow no interference with its functions, but it was not a pleasant position to be placed in. Fortunately, it was supported iv its decision by the Secretary for Crown Lands, whose long experience enabled him to form a correct opinion on a subject about which the Council was totaUy ignorant. The Chief Surveyors . report on the amount and cheapness of the work executed ably refutes the aspersions cast by the CouncU; inasmuch as it proves that the surveys under the system inaugurated by him are by fer the cheapest in either New Zealand or the Australian Colonies, and I am certain they are quite as, if not more, efficient . This, Sir, is the sum and substance of my resolutions, and I think that were a measure brought into the Assembly, altering our present form of Government in a somewhat similar manner, providing at the same time the settlement on each province or county of its land fund, wherewith to pay its liabilities and expenses of government, any balance left being handed over to be dealt with by the County Board, we would be better and more effectively governed than unJer our present system. Individually, lam inclined to think that a mUd despotism for smaU provinces like this, would be the best form of Government, because the head that thinks, owns the hand which acts, and thus rapidity of execution — a great object, always supposing it is in the right direction — for small communities would be obtained. The tidecan then be taken at the flood, and we have had painful experience how the ebb has set in owing to delays thrown in the way by our present hybrid form of government. This, of course, Sir, is impracticable, because EngUshmen wUI have something to say and to do as. to the way they are to be governed. I suppose they would rather be governed badly their own way, than weU governed any other way. It appears to me that the Provincial Council, wlule it has proved itself powerless to do good, has shewn that it is powerful to do harm, and therefore I think it is an institution which ought to be swept away. I d> not mean to say that | this CouncU has mismanaged its affairs in a greater degree than the CouncUs of other provinces; on the contrary, I think we have done as weU as most, certainly better than Auckland. Nor wiU I mislead you by stating the expenses of government wiU be lessened by the projected change. I don't beUeve they wiU ; but I think we shall have a more effective government. FeeUng, Sir, so deeply on the subject, I conceive it to be my duty, a d"ty I owe to my constituency the country of my adoption, and myself, to do everything in my power to remedy the evUs under which we presently labor. I beg, therefore, to move "That the form of government at present existing in New Zealand, viz., by Provincial Governments controUed by a General Government, is no longer suited to the circumstances and requirements of the colony, and demands immediate modification." "That a Central Government and Legislature for the two islands would greatly conduce to the efficient performance of the functions of government, the financial credit of the colony, and the general good of the community." " That to effect such a .change the colony should be divided into counties and subdivided into road districts." " That the purely municipal administration of affairs iii each county should be vested in a Board ; the members of which should be elected. in a manner similar to that prescribed for the election of Superintendents under Clause 4 of the Constitution Act." " That the poUce, gaol, harbor, land and survey departments should be under the entire control of the General Government." "That our representatives in the General As sembly be requested to use their utmost influence for the attainment'of such a change in the present form of Government." " That a copy pf the foregoing resolution be sent to the honorable the Colonolial Secretary." Mr ABMSTBONG seconded the motion pro forma. Dr Hodgkinson rose" _ and . said —Mr Speaker, — The mover and" seconder of the motion before the CouncU having, spoken, I wiU nowj before any other members have committed themselves to the Bupport of a measure which is } in my opinion, very discreditable to any representative assembly of Englishmen, proceed to urge my reasons for deaUng with this matter with the' utmost' caution and deliberation. " About twelve months ago a motion of a simUar tendency was brought before the Council, and earned, by a large majority after very little consideration ' or

discussion, and though supported less by sound reasoning than by mere assertion and ntuperutnir — Hjuch as, " That the Provincial system is Sxrttsnf to the core, was ruining the province, Ac., Sue!" Having on that occasion been grieved to see t&*' CouncU commit itself to the support of a resolution so unworthy of any community of British colonists, I must request the House to bear witit me if on this occasion I should occupy some considerable time in an endeavor to show cause why, at the least, this motion' should not now Btf affit mcd. Indeed I much regret that the member for Oteramika (Mr Pearson) should have brought the motion before the House at all, as I consider that in any case it can lead to no practical resnlf r or if so, it can only be for evil and not for good* whilst the time now chosen is most inopportune^ for originating a discussion on the subject. Twelve months ago, when the province was in complete subjection to the General 'Jovemment, which wa* in the position of mortgagee — and the saying off the wise man is as true now as it was 3000 years ago, " The borrower is servant to the lender?*—' when aU our k»d revenue, yv»s impounded, wheat' we had no power to help ourselves — then, Sny there might be some excuse, though, I hold, na* justification for snch a proposi ion. As ths seconder of the motion has remarked, "times ww^ then dark and gloomy, and tliere was throughout the province a genejal feeling of despondency and . helplessness ;" butt now, as we all know, pair condition iB vastly -improved, for through tiie legislation of the General Assembly during th* last session, we have been placed in the same* position as the other provinces, with, the additional advantage we have probably slarger acreage of avaUable unsold lands _in proportion to our debt than any of them., tinder these favorable circumstances, and when we again hold the staff in our own hands, to bring: forward a resolution asking us to part with-it, am the member for Oteramika has done, seems to me most Ul-timed. The subject now before us bf . one of vast importance, worthy of the. mosfc studious' and careful consideration of the most experienced and matured statesmen, being*np less than an attempt to make, an organic change as the constitution of a great colony, to substitutes* a system of centralism for what is now. virtedfy a federal system. Before we endeavor to build BgF any superstructure pf reasoning or argument*-- . tion, we ought to lay a foundation both firm, aod' broad : in other words, we must be careful to reason upon facts aryl .jaot upon fallacies, and to iook.at the questiop. #9s,merely : froin a provincial ■•_.._. ... but also from a coiPnial^point of view. . Though '. our first business as Provincial CouncUlors. is to attend to' the wants and interests of. the province, yet I hold that our first allegiance or. fealty is to the colony, and even if I could .Be persuaded that some considerable— -though n^ceirsarily temporary — advantage might accrue Ut 'A A tbe province from, the proposed change, yet. I should not consider myself warranted in accepting it if it was at tiie same time injurious to the colony as a whole. That such a change would be in a high degree injurious both to* the colony and to the provinces indiridoadlly, I am -fully satisfied, as it would most surely he accompanied with unjust or inefficient government, causing discontent, ending in cries for secession by the erection of portions of these islands mto* distinct colonies, afterwards, in . the ordinary course of events, to become distinct or even rival states— a result .most deeply to be deplored. The hon. member then criticised the . SbutMtmdt Times for the action taken by that journal in advocating Centralism. As I have already said ... the subject under discussion is virtually this— Dr * federal or centralised system of government the most advantageous for New Zealand? By the Constitution Act passed by the British Parliaments a federal form of government has been etrtslKUshedj and we are now asked to abolish it in favor of Centralism. With regard to these two form* of government, it may be premised that, each » the best when in its proper place. What we haw to consider, therefore, is, that regard being had ta the peculiar geographical features of New Zealand and the peculiar mode in which it has been colonised, is a federal or a centralised system the mostt appropriate? We may first of aU briefly consider the essential attributes and advantages otiA each system. When speaking on .this subjeefr some twelve months ago, when a motion (Mir Cuthbertson' s) for a consoUdation of the five provinces of the South Island was before the House — remembering that the British' oak, had offieat , been used as a favorite emblem of the English Constitution, I said that it might also be regarded , as a suitable emblem or comparison for any strongr centralised government. This form of. government, like the tree of which it .is symbolical, may be strong, but can be strong only within certain; limits— just as Nature has Bet limitß to thegrpwtlt, of the tree, so are there. limits to. the .appfict^nu*^ : "of a- government of this kind .wtach. > f»Bms>t^he-' safely exceeded. The tree being supported 1 v ß^

I

only one stem, and drawing nourishment fr om on *et of roots, it follows that just in proportion as the superincumbent branches and foliage are developed so is the strength of its single stem severeiy tried, and the resources of its roots drawn upon for nourishment, and by so much is the dagger increased of its succumbing to the fury of the elements or the ravages of time. Now, it so happens that there is in the vegetable iingdom another tree whice may serve as a very appropriate emblem for a federal form of government, viz., the banyan or Indian fig-tree. In this remarkable tree there is one central system, giving unity to the whole tree, and around it an indefinite number of other smaUer stems, each supporting their superincumbent branches and supplying them with nourishment, and just as this tree ramifies aud grows horizontally, so are new stems developed which take root in the earth, and in their turn become so many columns of support and sources of nutritien. A federal system may therefore be compared to a large tree, overshawdowing a large part of the earth's surface, so that whole nations may find shelter under its branches. We have in our days a remarkable instance of this form of government in the Western Continent, and whatever may be thought ofthe permanency of the American Union and I do not profess to forecast the future — this much must be conceded, that under no other st stem could such an immense extent of territory have been held together, and, in the language of De TocquevUle, " have insured to the Americans aU the prosperity, good government, and happiness of a small nation, with aU the dignity and power of a great one." To use another comparison, it may be said that whilst both forms of government may be strong, yet that they are strong in different ways, and within different limits. A centra Used government may b compared to an iron bar or beam, which, though strong, is yet at the same time rigid, unyielding, and not capable of accommodating itsolf to pressure or tenison in every direction, and if extended beyond a certain length wiU break asunder even by its own weight. A federal system may be compared on the contrary to an iron chain or cable, which with aU the strength of the former, is also pliable and yielding, c-pable of resisting either pressure or tension in every direction, and of being extended over a Tery large space without suffering any solution of continuity. And next, Sir, as to wliich form is best smted for our own colony. In determining ihis we must not be guided merely by geographical extent or area in square mfles or acres, but along with this we must also take into account the very peculiar geographical configuration of New Zealand, and the very peculiar way in which it was originaUy colonised. In making our .decision we must never dissociate theso three considerations, but must fully appreciate how they mutually act and re-act upon each other. As to the peculiar geographical configuration of New Zealand, we must note that these islands extend in an oblique' direction— from N.E. to S.W. throughout thirteen degrees of latitude and fourteen degrees of longitude, — tho distance from the northern to the southern extremity being considerably over one thousand mile-* by any practicable route, either by land or water, We ought also to note the ragged and character of much of the interior country, which renders traveUing difficult, and divides the country into many districts, each having its seaport, and natural centre of population and commerce, and in the. first, instance ha. viug been the seat of a distinct colony. It wiH, in this way, be recognised that though New Zealand is not a country of enormous area, yet that it is a country of great distances. To illustrate this it may be weU to make comparisons with other countries whose vast extent is always acknowledged. Let us then imagine ourselves on a coasting voyage from Stewart's Island to the North Cape, and we shall find that the distance to be sailed over is about as great as that from the Straits of Dover to the Straits of Gibralta, or abont equal to the length of the Atlantic coast of the United States, between the most norh»ern and the most southern state ofthe Union, viz., from the most southern border of Maine to the northern frontier of Florida, or probvly exceeding the length of the coast of Indii between Madras and Calcutta. Again, let ns consider the distance between the two cities of Uew Z aland, which, in aU probability, are destined to be the largest in the islands, and we shaU find it to be abou, as great as that from London to Lisbon or from London to Florence, the capital of Italy, «rfrom Philadelphia to New Orleans, or from New York to St. Louis, or from Madras to Bombay. Again, suppose this scheme of Centralisation to be carried out, let us consider the distance thatour representatives must travel in order to reach Wellington, the seat of Government, and ■m* shaU Sad it to he ahout the same as that fre*

London to Bordeaux, or from London to Berne in Switzerland, or from Washington to Charleston, South Carolina, or from Delhi to the frontiers of Affghanistan. To come now to mere geographical area, we cannot regard New Zealand as a smaU country, its area being somewhat more than that of Great Britain and Ireland. It is true that we have a centra Used government in the United Kingdom, but I much fear it must be looked upon rather as a warning than as an example ; for admitting that it has succeeded weU as regards England and Scotland, though there is no good reason to think the other system might not have worked equaUy weU to say the least, yet as regards Ireland — the " sister kingdom" as it is called — CentraUsm has proved a most disastrous faUure. As everyone knows, Ireland has long been in a state of chronic discontent and rebellion, and a source of danger rather than of strength. I have no wish whatever to say anything which might be construed into an approval of the insurrectionary attempt of a portion of the Irish people, for no people are justified in resorting to force so long as there. is a reasonable hope of obtaining redress in a legal or constitutional way, and tliis course has always been open to the Irish people, and since the passing of the Reform BUI is more bo than ever — but as an Englishman, candour compels me to admit that Ireland has grievances which ought to be redressed, and I believe that these grievances do exist precisely because the Government of the United Kingdom is a Centralised Government. It is not on matters of Imperial poUcy that the Irish are disaffected, but upon matters of domestic concern and interest, such as the tenure of land and the existence of an aUen church establishment mposod upon them against their wiU. In br'ef, it is because the wiU of the Irish people on their own domestic matters is overruled and overridden by the Government of the United Kingdom as a whole, that they are discontented and rebeUious, and to such a degree that it only requires the contingency of a war between England and any first-class power to bring about — to say the leaßt — the mos imminent danger of a dismemberment of the I Empire by the separation or secession of Ireland. So, I much fear, though in a lesß degree, would ! it be with us in New Zealand under the proposed system. I wUI now proceed to draw comparison as to area in square mUes between the New Zealand provinces and other states or colonies having a federal system of government. In the South Island there are now five provinces, comprising an area of about fifty million acres, and if we consult the map of North America we shaU find that there are five States in New England—exclusive of the sixth and largest, the State of Maine— whose aggregate area is considerably less than our five New Zealand provinces. Again, there are in aU nine provinces in New Zealand, and I could name nine states in the American Union whose aggregate area is less than that of New Zealand. Of these states two are considerably smaUer than Southland, and yet they have been in existence as colonies and states for about two hundred years, and, I may add, each of them sends two senators to the Congress at Washington, in this respect being on an equaUty with the largest states in the Union, though not so as regards the House of Representatives, to which each state returns members in proportion to its population. Here I must allude to the grossness ofthe ideas of those who form their estimate of a country chiefly in accordance with its geographical area and the material resources. However small a state maybe, if it is weU governed, it ought always to be respected. Just as, in private life, it is not the mere possess ion of great wealth, or abUities, but the beneficial Tray in which these are employed, whether smaU or great, that should secure our esteem. As an illustration, I may mention the state of Rhode Island, the smallest — and contrast it with Virginia — the largest — of the old States. By all lovers of their ieHowrmen, who place a higher valuo on moral than on material attributes, this little state of Rhode Island wiU always be renowned for having been established by that Ulustrious Englishman, Roger WUliaras, the apostle of reUgious liberty. It was the first commonwealth in the history of the world founded on the basis of a fuU, five, and perfect equaUty, j whether civU or religious. This is a glory which can never be taken from it, and there is no reason to suppose that it hasbecome unworthy of its origin, for I re member reading not many years ago that it was expending as much money on the education of its people as was required for all other expenses of government. Contrast this with Virginia, " the old dominion," a state to which a certain class of Englishmen have been wont to accord their admiration because of the aristocratic structure of i its society. This great state, as large as England, possessed of immense resources, abounding in coal, iron, and ether useful minerals, has not only faUed

to develop its resources, and been outstripped in wealth and population by aome of the younger states which have sprung into existence since the war of independence, but in these latter times has actuaUy subjected itself to shame and reproach by neglecting the education of its white population, and even passing laws making it a penal offence, and if repeated, accompanied with bonds and imprisonment, to teach a poor negro or colored man to read. I am, however, aware that some Englishmen are so incurably prejudiced that it is scarcely possible for them to appreciate any arguments enforced by comparisons with anything appertaining to the Great RepubUc, so I wiU now proceed to our own colonies in British America. Though the area of British America is undoubtedly very , much larger than that of New Zealand, yet if we exclude the more northerly regions, which are unfit for settlement, the difference is not nearly so great as it at first appears to be. However, excluding Upper and Lower Canada, let us take the three lower or maritime provinces, viz., New Brunswick, Novia Scotia (with Cape Breton), and Prince Edward's Island, and let us compare them with the three contiguous New Zealand provinces, Canterbury, Otago, and Southland. The result of this comparison is, that we find the area of the three British American colonies to be somewhat smaUer than that of the three New Zealand provinces. Now, Sir, I appeal to reason and common sense, and ask the advocates of centralism why it is that, recognising as they are accustomed to do the propriety of the American colonies having separate governments and power to legislate for themselves, they should deny the same or simUar privileges to New Zealand provinces of equal or larger area, and of greater resources and with capabflitfes for supporting a larger population ? I must make free to teU those gentlemen who have educated themselves into a contempt for their adopted country, that they are like men looking through the wrong end of a telescope, so that they see everything dwarfed and deprived of its fair proportions. Let thens desist from this perverse use of the optic tube, make use of their own unassisted eyes, and endeavor to see the New Zealand provinces as they really are, and accord to them that amount of respect to which they are so fairly entitled. For some time past I have observed that, no doubt for want of arguments, the centralists have endeavored to throw contempt both upon the provinces and their governments. We often hear them speak of "petty provinces" and "veßtry parUaments," language which proves nothing except perhaps their own fitness to be vestrymen and their unfitness to decide upon any question of colonial importance, and from the frequency of their allusions to vestries it would real'y seem that they were themselves men of parochial minds, and men who -night weU restrict t hemselves to the consideration of parochial matters. Before leaving the British-American colonies it may be weU to note how differently people there value the privUeges of local legislation and government compared with our New Zealand Centralists. The Uttle colony of Prince Edward's Island, much smaUer in area than Southland, and which has been a separate colony for nearly one hundred years, so fer from thinking itself unable or unfit td govern its6lf, and wishing to be absorbed into soitie larger colony, has up to this time actuaUy refused to give in its adhesion to the new Confederation or "Dominion," although it would efren ih that case hiVe retained its autonomy or existence as* am indivividual member of the Confederation. I give no opinion as to' the wisdom of the course it has tak&n, but it shows how extremely jealo us ffiis little colony is of its powers of self-govere ment being in any degree compromised. The i&the feeling also has shown itself very strongly inthe larger colony of Nova Scotia for although there was a ihajoritr in fevor of joining the new Confederation yet the minority opposed to it was very powerful, and on the day of inauguration made strong outward signs of dissatisfaction, many ships in the harbour hoisting their flags half-mast high, and some of the newspapers being issued with black, lines, as though in mourning. I must here notice an argument used by the Centralists. They say that though a federal system with- local self-go-vernment may answer very weU on the American [ Continent, yet that it is bfefcfiuse the states and. colonies there are much more populous and wealthy than our New Zealand provinces are. . No doubt tbis is the case now but it #as not so years ago when they first obtained these privUeges. The hon. member, with the permission of the House, read an extract froih Bancroft's History of the United States. On the first colonisation of Connecticut, which was settled by emigrants from the older colony of Massachusetts Bay, after describing the difficulties of the founders of the; commonwealth, their wars vtith tiie red Indians of the Pequod tribe, who numbered seven hundred warriors, whilst the number of effective men

amongst the settlers was barely two hundred, andthe successful issue of the war was owing to the vigor and courage displayed by the settlers in Connecticut in this first Indian war in New England, struck terror into the savages, and secured a long succession of years of peace. Did time permit, I might also read from the same historian of the foundation of the commonwealth of Rhode Island, at about the same date, and on equaUy ju<t and Überal principles. Though weU able to frame constitutions, and to maintain good government, yet in order to secure themselves against the encroachments of the larger and more powerful colonies, the settlers of both Rhode Island and Connecticut found it expedient to obtain charters from the Crown during . the reign of Charles 11. Strange as it may seem, whrn we ' consider the the despotic reigns of the Stuart dynasty, these charters were, to the utmost degree, liberal and democratic, so much so that the people of Rhode Island were content to remain underthe provisions of their charter for about forty 'years after the delaration of American Independence. At the time their charters were granted the population of Rhode Island was only two thousand seven hundred, and that of Connecticut about the same. And now, Sir, after having shown the manly and self-reliant -spirit, and the capacity for self-government of the early settlers in America in those days when English colon-sts were MEN, I wUlput it to the members of this Council — representing a community of eight thousand British colonists — are you prepared to endorse ths resolution now before you, supported as it has been by arguments so disparaging to your character as tha representatives of a New Zealand province ? If so, I must make free to say that you wiU thereby set the seal to your own shame and your own reproach, and proclaim to the j world your unworthiness to be named as the feUow countrymen of those brave m^n, who, in the seventeenth century, went forth to found commonwealths in the western > world. I must next allude briefly to another remarkable country — Switzerland — in wl-.ich a __ federal form of government prevaUs, and has been in existence for several hundred years. Though th« area of Switzerland is only about four times that of Southland, yet it comprises no less than twenty-two separate republics or cantons, each possessing fuU powers of self-government, and aU joined together in one federation. Here we have an example proving that a federal system may, under peculiar circumstances, be very suitable for a country of very limited extent ; for if New Zealand was subdivided into as many provinces in proportion to its size as there are repubUcs in Switzerland, there would be about one hundred and seventy provinces instead of nine. About twenty years ago, the Swiss people adopted a new federal- <sonafcitution; cfis*rely resembling that-of the United States of North America, the twenty-two Utile republics or cantons retaining the same powers of local legislation and government as before. Now, if the advantages of centralism and the evUs of local legislation were so great as the advocates of the former assume to be the case, is it not re-* markable that ths Swiss should have retained a federal constitution, and is not their example strong prima fade evidence against the Centralist doctrine. I may also remark paranthetically that the framera pf this constitution had also ' the prudetfee and good sence to make provision for ato elected executive (such as I advocated in thiß Council last session), to be chosen by the Federal Assembly from amongst the whole' mttss of citizens* Now, if an elected exec'utire is preferable to the English system of government by party, in Switzerland, with its population of nearly two and a half miUions and ite Federal Assembly of one ' hundred and" sixty-four numbers, how much moreis it recfuSred in Southland, with its population of eight thousand, and its CouncU of only tventy 'members? And now, Sir, as tb the peculiar" mode in which New Zealand was originaUy colo-* nised. Instead of being one colony, there wert? 1 reaUy six distinct colonies — as has been Correctly stated in a book entitled the " Six Colonies of New Zealand," by 'Mr Fox, who,- 1 am glad td see, has just returned to New Zealand, and who, I hope may be instrumental in defeating the mischievous Centralising poUcy of the present Prime Minister—Mr Stafford. The New Zealand \ Company planted the three colonies of WeUington, Nelson, and Taranaki with settlers direct from Great Britian. Auckland was colonised by the Colonial Government of New Zealand, the settlers being for the most part immigrants from the Aus- . tralian Colonies, and it may be considered almost as an offshoot from New South Wales.' Ota^o was colonised about eight years later by settlersdirect from Scotland, attached to the Free Kirk, division of the Preabyteriaa Church. Canterbury was colonised soon afterwards under a special charter, and its settlers were for the most *oart members of the Established Church of England, and came direct from the mother country. Subsequently three other settlements have been* established, and erected into provinces, their in-, habitants ■ being a miscellaneous assemblage of people from, the neighboring provinces and colonies, and frbm the United Kingdom. It is, therefore, clear that to any candid inquirer, the distinct colonisation of these provinces, and the* differing character of tbeir first settlers, will: be" regarded as another strong reason for each having, a separate poUtical existence, with powers of local legislation and government, the whole being of course, subject to the domin ition of a federal government as regards aU matters of colonial or national, importance. By way of showing the actual necessity for local legislation, I may allude to a statement made by a" member of this Coun-' <ril (Dr Menzies) about a" year ago, viz., that before the separation of Westland from Canterbury, the ProviricU". Council 0f .., Canterbury, ha: \ found it' ifece'ssSi'y,* in- some instances to pass' double.acts on the same subjects, one for Canter bury* East.: and the othel? "foi? Canterbury West.*

Having now, Sir, briefly placed before the CouncU the most important considerations which should determine us in deciding upon the question now before us, I do not hesitate to express my conviction that our verdict should be for a federal versus a centralised constitution for New Zealand, or, in other words, for our standing by the Constitution Act, with any modification of the nature of reform— not revolution— and for our rejection of any organic change in the constitution of the colony. I may now mention a few of the many evils of centrahsm. Much has been said of the difficulty of obtaining men able and willing to act as Provincial CouncUors, but I contend that there is much less difficulty in finding twenty suitable men wUling to give up a fortnight of their time once a year, when they are within a day's journey of their homes, than there wiU be to find four men fit to represent all our interests in the General Assembly, andwilUug to leave their homes, and neglect their business, for four months ; and here I may point out one serious evU Ukely to ensue, viz., the establishment of a virtual ohgarchy through the representation of the province (and aU its interests if the centraUst scheme is established) becoming a monopoly in the hands of a few wealthy men. It is plain that no man of moderate means, and engaged in any business requiring his supervision, could afford to become a member of the General Assembly. The mere payment of his traveUing expenses, and the allowance of one pound per day, would not compensate for the neglect of his own affairs for three or four months. It must also be borne in mind that, as a rule, our colonial rich men are a very different class from those in England, and even there it is not expedient to select all the representatives from amongst their number— and how much stronger is the objection to do so in a colony, where, as everyone knows, in the acquisition of wealth, the race is not to the intellectual, or to those possessed of the highest moral attn-. butes, but rather to men who give up thenwhole heart and soul to this single object— a mode of Ufe which too often has the effect of contracting the mind and withering the heart. Under the present system the character of our representatives in the General Assembly is not so vital a question, because we, through our Provincial CouncU, have power to make laws and to govern ourselves as regards all provincial or local matters, and our representatives have only to protect those colonial interests which we share in common with other provinces ; but under the proposed system we should have to depend upon our four or five representatives at WeUington for aU the benefits we could derive by wise legislation and good government. I may also say that however much Provincial CouncUs have been disparaged by the mover of this resolution and others, it is by no means certain that on the average the men who would have to decide upon our affairs in the General Assembly are much superior to the average of our Provincial Councilors, and with the exception of Mr BeU, an old politician, I think this cannot" \>e asserted ©f-our-ihim-representatives., for Southland. But even admitting that the, Seventy members of the General Assembly are superior to the members of this CouncU, we must yet bear in mind that they are very imperfectly acquainted with our peculiar wants and condition — that it is not probable they wUI feel much interest inthem, and by no means certain that, even if knowing what we require, they would have the inclination to vote us what we are fairly entitled to, but might rather neglect our interests, and attend chiefly to the wishes of those portions of the colony were they reside, and from which they have been returned. In short, Sir, it must be apparent that under a centralised government the weaker and less populous districts of the colony, being only feebly represented in one large assembly, would have to stand outside in the cold whilst the favors and expenditure of government would be lavished on the great seats of population and wealth, each of which would, of course, return many representatives, and thereby possess much power, and be able to secure respectful treatment both from the Assembly and the Executive. Then as to the cost of the Provincial system. On a former occasion, when speaking, on Mr Cuthbertson's resolutions for the consolidation of the five provinces of this island, I showed that the proposed change in the direction of Centndism would lead to no saving. On this occasion there is no need to go over the same ground again, inasmuch as the member for Oteramika, who has moved this resolution, when speaking on the consoUdation resolution, had the candour to admit that the aboUtion of provinces would not lead to any saving whatever in the cost of government. With regard to the debts of Southland and the other provinces — without at aU justifying ■what has been done in the way of lavish expenditure, I may be aUowed to point out that the times have been very exceptional and pecuhar. Under any form of government the fictitious prosperity accompanying the gold-fever would have influenced the public mind, and led to great governmental expenditure. As a proof of this, I may refer to the colony of Victoria, where a centralised form pf government exists. The pubUc debt of that colony is about nine milUons sterUng, the whole of which has been contracted voluntarily for construction of raUways and other pubUc works.- This is no doubt a much smaUer debt in proportion to population than the aggregate of the colonial and proTincial debts of New Zealand, but if we deduct from the New Zealand debt that portion of it rendered necessary by the Maori war, and take into account only that portion contracted' for pubUc works, it wUI, I think, be found that the propensity of both colonies to get into* debt has been about the same. There- is however, a certain kind of retrenchment, though a very undesirable one, which might result from- the aboUtion of the provinces, and it is this.— when; the General Government was under the necessity of reducing expences, instead of an equitable and -comprehensive scheme of reduction, carried :__partiatty throughout the whole colony, it is

highly probable that whUst the more populous j and wealthy districts would, through their numerous representatives in the Assembly, compel the Colonial Executives to keep up their departments in a state of efficiency, the BmaUer districts such as Southland, having only a few representatives, would have their departments reduced to suck a degree as to be seriously detrimental to the puhUc interests— and thus the weakest would to to the waU. I wiU now refer to the inconsistency ofthe centralists who, whilst admitting— as the mover of this resolution does, and as the writer in the "Southland Tunes does,— the advantages of Provincial Governments in the early times, when the work of colonisation hid chiefly to be done, next proceed to urge their unsuitableness to our present circumstances, giving as their chief reason that the population Ind wealth of the provinces is still too small to admit of the requsite number of men being found to act as Provincial Councillors and members of the Executive. Now, it must be apparent to any impartial inquirer, that if the first colonists were able to carry on the business of Provincial Government, when one of the most important matters, viz., immigration, required attention more than it does now, and when their numbers could be counted only by hundreds, how much more should we, their successors, be able to govern ourselves when one of the chiet difficulties, viz., the settlement of the country has, to a great extent, been overcome, and when our numbers can now be reckoned by thousands, or tens of thousands. . Having already occupied a considerable amount of the time of the House, I wiU now proceed to notice, as briefly as possible, the arguments of my friend in support of his resolution. He admits that at first the colony could not be governed from a common centre, but asserts that the Constitution Act is so framed that it is evident the intention of it was that the Provincial Governments should be "purely municipal." Now the incorrectness of this assertion is manifest when we refer to the Constitution Act itself, which gives the provinces power to govern themselves, and to make laws on aU subjects except thirteen specially reserved to be dealt with by the General Government, and these are— l* Customs. 2. Courts of civU and criminal jurisdiction, except for offences punishable in a summary way. 3. Coinage. 4. Weights and Measures. 5. Post-office. 6. Laws relating to Bankruptcy. 7. Beacons and Lighthouses. 8. Port or Harbor Dues. 9. Marriages. 10. Crown Lands. 11. Disabihties onpersons of native race: 12. Altering criminal law, except in cases punishable in a summary way. 13. Regulating, the course of inheritance of real or personal property. It thus appears that, even with these thirteen reservations, the powers of the provinces are stiU very great, arid certainly much more than areimpUed by the term "municipal." As to the provinces having taken advantage of circumstances to obtain increased powers, this may have been the case, but the additional powers were conceded by the General Government, not as matters of constitutional right, but as boons, which it was expedient to grant, and which might be withdrawn if abused. Another charge against Provincial Governments is, that they have occasioned the very reprehensible practice of what is comnionly caUed " log-roUing." On looking into the charge, however, it wUI plainly appear that log-rolling ought to be laid to the accouiit of human nature rather than of Provincial Government. For if a centralised government was estabhshed to-morrow, the practice would stitt subsist so long as the low state of poUtical morality would admit; of it. If the provincees were abolished, the chief seats of population and wealth, such as the districts including Dunedin, Christchurch, and Auckland, would stiU remain as before ; and if the representatives from these districts had been . log-rotter '■• heretofore, they would continue so to be, because they would be as desirous as they formerly were of obtaining concessions from the General Go*, vernment, and, in order to obtain them, would make compacts with the representatives of other districts tp secure their votes in favor of such concessions, promising, on their part, to reciprocate when caUed upon to do so. Thus log-rolling would Uve though the provinces should cdie. Then, as to the aUegation + hat the provincial system destroys the independence of representatives, and makes them subserj vient to their constituents. WeU, supposing tliis to be so, how could tlie aboUtion of provinces alter the case? The districts returning members would BtiU expect them to obtain all the advantages they could for the districts they represented, and would be as much displeased as they now are if their representatives failed to do bo — even though impartiality and fair dealing required that they should oppose the wishes of their constituencies. There is another evU improperly charged upon the provincial system, and which can only cease when the political morality of both voters and representatives has attained a higher standard than at present. If the mob in any of our cities has insulted honorable or upright men— as in tlie case of Major Richardson (mentioned by the mover, Mr Pearson), — it is much to be feared that the propensity of a mob to" act in this disgraceful manner wiU not be removed by any mere change in the form of government. Another indictment against ProvinciaUsm is that the interests ; of the weaker provinces are sacrificed, to those ofthe stronger ones — a strange charge to be made by a CentraUst, for it is clear that if this evU exists how, it would be vastly increased by the proposed change. Under the present system the pecuhar and local interests of the various provinces are in safe keeping, being dealt with by the Provincial CouncUs, and the General Assembly has to deal only with such interests of the various provinces as are of a colonial nature, • such as they share in common with the other provinces, and therefore there is comparatively •little scope for partiaHty or injustice towards any particular province. Under the centralised system att this' would be changed, for then every •interest and want of every province would have to be dealt with directly by the . General Asaem-

bly. The small provinces being feebly represented, would obtain but scant justice, whUe the large provinces wou'd get the lion's share as regards attention to their general interests, patron - age, and government ■ expenditure. Next, Sir, as to the endeavor made to support the - Centralists' view by reference to the United States of America. My friend seems here to have been reading his book on America upside down. He has, in fact, stolen my precedents, and I must now require him to surrender them, for there is nothing in the constitution of the United States which favors Centralism, but, on the contrary, aU that can be found there supports the arguments in favor of Federalism. It is true, as he has read to us, that a change was made in the form of . government of the American Union some ten years after the close of the War of Independence, in order to prevent the Federation from being resolved into its original elements, and to provide for a federal government sufficiently strong to . secure domestic peace and respectful treatment from foreign nations — but the change was not in the direction of a centralised government such as that now proposed for New Zealand, but in the direction of Federalism, the individual states still retaiuing their sovereignty on aU matters except those delegated to the Federal Government, the result being the establishment of one great nationality by the unton of many : separate republics, as indicated by the American motto, " c pluribus unum." Had this new construction been faithfully adhered to by aU the states, there would have been no civil war, but the Southern States, wishing to secede for the purpose of perpetuating slavery, adopted the States Right theory or heresy, in order to justify their conduct, and, in order fo be consistent, incorporated it into the constitution of the Southern Confederacy, notwithstanding its absurdity, for it is clear that a federal bond with such reserved right of secession by individual states would be a mere rope of sand — utterly worthless. That tbis was well understood to be the case in America is placed beyond a doubt by the fact of two of the border slave states having declined to join the rebel confederacy for this amongst other reasons, for . they gave as one reason for declining that they could not commit the interests of their states to the keeping of a confederation which contained within itself the seeds of its own dissolution — alluding to the reserved right of secession by a mere vote ofthe state's legislature. I may as weU here take the opportunity of saying that in all my advocacy of provincial or state govern-, ments, it is premised that there shaU be a string federal government, all-powerful to coerce any recalcitrant or rebeUious province or state. I may here remark, as showing the tenacity with, wliich the small colonies in America have always clung to the right of self-government, and their jea'ousy of its being iti any way compromised, that the smaUest state in the Union— Khode Island— took two years to consider, and was the last to give in its adhesion to the new federal constitution. I may also again say that the area ofj,thi9 Uttle state is less, than half that of Southland, and that it sends two senators to the. Federal Congress — being in this respect on an equality with the largest states in the Union, though not so in the House of. Representatives, to which members are returned in proportion to population. The next count in this long indictment against Provincialism is that ie prevents uniformity of legislation, and we are told that we may have laws on the east side of the Mataura which are not the same as those on the west side. The short answer to this may be— WeU, what does it matter if such is the case? Even in Great Britain there are different laws north and south of the Tweed, and in the six New England states, comprising an area not much larger than this South Island, there are, no doubt, different laws in each state, and yet no inconvenience results. Whatever evUs may exist in America, the want of uniformity of legislation has not been complained of by the people of the various states. It must be remembered also, that both in New Zealand and America, though the laws may be dissimilar, yet they are not conflicting, inasmuch as they must be in accordance with the principles of English law adopted in both countries; and in New Zealand, moreover, conflicting or injurious legislation can be overruled by the General Government. Then, Sir, as to the statement that the Provincial Government of Southland cannot be continued owing to the bad financial state of the province, I must remind the member for Oteramika that he has admitted that we can govern ourselves as cheaply as the General . Government could do ; and that, as the province must be governed, money must be found to govern it with ; that this money must be provided for by taxation, except such a*> results from the sale of waste lands' ; and that the General Government is bound either to take upon itself the cost and trouble of governing vi, or to aUow us to retain such a portion of the proceeds of taxation and land sal a s as wUI enable us to govern ourselves, and that we can do this both better and cheaper than a centralised government txt WeUington could do it for us. Again, Sir, I must demur to the dictum of my friend "thatour Provincial. Government has no power to do good, but has great power to do mischief." It is true that I cannot refute his statements as to the blunders and want of judgment and the failings of our CouncU — especiaUy as regards the malting and leasing of the railways. Being a sincere lover of popular government, and having a firm faith — to use the words of Abraham Lincoln — •" that government ofthe people, by the people, and for the people, shaU never perish from the earth," at least not during this dispensation — these mistakes and other reprehensible occurrences have been a cause of much more concern, and I may say sorrow, to me, than they can have bean to him, as an ; admirer of a ** mUd despotism ;" but I must say, in .extenuation though not in justification, that such things are not unknown in other and larger legislative bodies. , For instance, the Parliament of the great centralised Colony of Victoria, is npt free from .them, nor are they altogether unknown in tha British

House of Commons. As we grow older, I. would* again hope we shall grow wiser by experienc:?, and so avoid the errors of the past. It may be true that if a General Government officer had been in sole charge of pur affairs, we woul 1 have accepted the otfer to leease and finish aad work our railways, and in this particular matter have done better th :;i our Council lias done. This, no doubt, .is one of the advantages of a " mild despotism." if an enlightened one, but the evils of it are so great ai to coutterbatanco by far any incidental advantages such as the one inontione I. If, indeed, the member for Oteramika seriously advocated a despotic form of government* whythen IJ must meet, him on that ground ; but he himself tells U3 that though he would prefer it, yet it is impracticable *" because Englishmen will have something to say and to do as to the way they are to.be governed "—so there is no necessity to argiie this matter. Tlio zoological coinpaniois of tadpoles and fro.?-, &',.. maybe amusing but d* not require seriou- oonsi ler.ktion. This is. not, however, the case vn iii :h-* next statein-'nt. ''tint provincial institutions aro dt'inoraUjiiig,..- ani a curse both socially an I e ...min rcially," . I'his i3 a. serious cliarge, but thon 3 '! i i*n:orebil by a quotation from Lord Brougham, worthy ««f all attention, it cannot, I believe, be tstahlislud. Ai to the excitement of contested elections, and evil consequences resulting therefrom— no doubt there are evUs connected with representative , institutions as with aU things human, bit I contend, apparent as these evils are, thoy are less, both ia nature and degree, than those attending a despotic government, and it must be borue in mind that some of the greatest of diem, viz., the severance of. private friendships and the intimidation or oppression of; voters by those who have the power to injure them, are due in gre it part to tbe want of that protection wliich the Ballot would afford. Also that these evils are co:uinon to all representative Governments, and are nofc peculiar to provincal . - institutions} f may add, that instead of enlarging upttf the evils of undue excitement, we ought rather , to deplore the apathy and indifference of a considerable number of the electors, who seem neither to understand the value of the suffrage nor to care to exercise it. . This is, no doubt, owing to the.fact of. their not having enjoye J the. privUego in the mother coatry, but we must hope for a change for the better, through the process of education and spread of information and knowledge* on political matters. I need not say much as to the mover's proposed plan of road boards, &c. Such, things, no doubt, wUI be very appropriate and useful when the proper time comes} ani then they can be estabUshed by our own Provincial Governments equally as well as by the General Government, and in the meantime at the best they would be but a very sorry substitute for those ample powers of local legislation which we*nowenjov. Before coneluling, I ought also topoint out the extreme inconsistency in which the. ■ mover of the resolution before the House hasin-* volved himself. After all the disparaging statements he ha 3 made against this CouncU, he end» by asking it to take action on a great constitutional question-^r-noJess than a radical, or, I may say, revolutionary j change in the form of govern-*: ment of New Zealand. Now, if he really. beheves that we, the members of this Council* are altogether incompetent to take charge of the comparatively small affairs of this smaU province,how can he, with any propriety, ask us to take the initative in the formation of a new constitution for thia great colony, a work that might well employ the wisest and most experienced statesmen? In the course of my argument lhave described the way in which the early' settlers of America framed constitutions, and carried on ther work of self-government. I may now ask how would such a proposition as the one now before* the Council have been received two hundred yeara ago in the representative assembly of Rhode Island or Connecticut? My own conviction is, that the mover of it would have been banished tlie Commonwealth. Not, Sir, that I "have any wish that my valued friend should be dealt wife in this summary manner ; on the contrary, re-" cognising, as I do, his abilities and attainments, I would much rather see him make a fuU recantation of his political heresies, and return to thetrue poUtical faith of a true Englishman, and remain here to give this CouncU the benefit of those valuable services which he is so well able to render to it. I .think, however ii voluntary and temporary absence might be beneficial, and as New Caledonia and Tahiti are nofc veiy fur off, I would suggest that he shou'd visit one.or the other, and under the rule of a satrap of the French Emperor, make a' practical acquaintance with that sort of "mUd despotism" which he now so much admires, but of which he has only a theoretical knowledge. I doubt not, sir, but that he would soon return a wiser and a more contented man, and would be ready to acknowledge that there were worse things in the world than even a Southland Provincial CounciL There are one or two other statements in my friend's speech which I must not omit to* notice. He says that under the Provincial system the executive cannot be made responsible to, the legislative body— that if aU executive. .',. is .voted out, and a new oneformed, that in a short time the old one will regaiu office. ' Now, that this has been: the case I cannot deny, but I can easUy show, as'l did whett speaking on my motion for an elected executivelast session of CouncU, that the evU complained of is not by any means inherent in the Provincial system, but is altogether an artificial difficulty or evil created by the Cjunctt itself in "endeavoring to imitate the English parliamentary mo ie of government by party— a plan suitable enough for the English House ot Commons, comprising 058 members, most of them men of good education and considerable wealth, and many of them old able politicians— but utterly unsuitable for a small councU of twenty members, few of Whom have wealth or leisure enough to admit of their giving up much time to executive duties. I may add that the CouncU can at any time remove tMs difl ficulty by making provision for the election of an

executive from amongst the qualified voters of the province generally, as is the case in Switzerland, *nd in the state governments in North America. lannßt not forget to notice the objection that the Trovindal system causes jealousies and bad feeling fotween the various provinces. This is an instance 4jf the way the Centralists have of making the Provincial system a scapegoat upon whose head to 3ay aU the evils which we endure. That such Jealonsieß have existed, and may exist now, I do smjt deny, but that they are occasioned by our present form of government, I cannot admit, for •ihey ran be easUy traced to another source, namely, the rivalry and jealousy which, as human asature is constituted, is always found to prevail snore or less betwixt neighboring cities or centres s»f population and commerce, whether under one centralised government, or under a federal governjnent, or under independent governments. The inhabitants of each district which is the na»ural focus of population, wealth, commerce, and industry, as, for instance, the districts around Christchurch, Dunedin, or WeUington, are /naturally desirous of advancing the interests and prosperity of their respective neighborhoods, and too often — are not very scrupulous as to whether _v so doing they act fairly and equitably towards „beir rivals, or, at any rate, they wiU feel f eelous of being outstripped, by them in Ihe race of prosperity. That such is ihe true solution of this evil will, I think, "be admitted by many who have lived in other colonies having a centrahsed system of go- . T«tnnient, and have seen the same feeling preTail between rival towns or districts. I myself jean recollect a remarkable instance of this in the «rilony of Victoria nearly twenty years ago, in the case of two Uttle seaport towns, in the western jdistrict, and not twenty-five mUes apart, and Ibetween which there existed a spirit of jealous more bitter and intense than anything Sh_t has been witnessed in New Zealand. I ought also lo show that, notwithstanding his denunciation of democracy, the member for Oteramika has -proposed a mode of government that would in*Titai>le lead to one of the worst evUs which the of popular government have ever (falsely »s I think) charged upon it, viz., the unfair =dominion or tyranny over the minority by the I say unfair, because, where there is a common interest — as, for instance, is the case snder our present system — when our members hare to vote on questions of a colonial and not provincial nature, in the General Assembly, •then the - majority must decide, and it is 3air that it should overrule the minority. 3sut, under the proposed ceDtrahsed go--reromenfc, all our interests, provincial and would have to be dealt with in the GeueiHl. Assembly at Wellington, in which we shonld be veiy feebly represented, and being in a minority k would not be fair that our wishes ahould be controUed on matters bf a purely pro--vintial and domestic nature, and we should then iave reason to complain of the " tyranny of the majority." In concluding, Sir, I wiU again urge aipon the Bouse the necessity for caution and deliberation, though I cannot hope to bring the aoeißbers of this CouncU to my own way of thinkiysyr, seeing that it is not twelve months since a £ivat majority of. them, without much reflection, 3 fear, voted for a simUar resolution ; yet I may jrtatonably hope to induce them to withhold their decision until next session. 1 have not been in ihe habit of paying compliments the CouncU, and indeed wish I could do so to a greater extent than in sincerity I can, but yet I cannot be considered as ; wanting in nspect to it, for when •Bril councillors, taking advantage of its troubles and despondency, have tempted it to commit political suicide, I ; have been almost the only -member who has had anything to say in its •deJenve, and who has counselled it to five and endeavored to prove that it might Uve to be both useful aud : respected.* Without, however, .quest: oning the competency of this CouncU to give an opi; ion on the great question .now before .it, 1 may be aUowed to think that it has not yet sufficiently prepared itself by careful inquiry and .reflection. 'That it is fuUy competent to deal . with ail provincial matters : I have always maintained, but as Poor .Richard says in his almanac' ** Vessels, large may venture more ' But little boats should keep near shore ;'- ----___(_, if I may make use of » nautical comparison 3 will saj that onr provincial craft isweU adapted far coasting voyages, in which, having the famUiar landmarks andj beacons always in sight, and being always on soundings, we may reasonably' hope to snake a prosperous voyage, and to arrive' safely in port. But if, Sir, we, in our present unprepared .state, &haU venture to launch our Uttle barque on the to* ni hitherto unknown and unexplored Bea of political theory and speculation, I much fear lhat we ahaU be 'at sea' indeed, and may drift -we liiciw not where— pcradventure ;on ■ to' the shoals of ignorance or the reefs of presumption, -mid lhcreby make. • shipwreck of our reputation ibx prudt-nce and good sense. I now, Sir, move my amendment, " That no vote be taken on Mr ■PvscriMin'* resolution during the present session of CbaneJL" '■' A" ' '"' ' '' ; ' Dr Mokckton, said that circumstances- alter -cases. A few months since we m : ght have been drarvus of a change, but then we were in debt hsavi-y, aud without power to obtain funds,' and Jtowt-vfer readily we might have been disposed to x»k to be relieved :rom onr responsibUity and 1 to put ou selves into leading strings then, it was a differ* iv thing now we had funds and prosperity appeared to be dawning on us. ; In physicians' practice it was sometimes necessary to administer » }■«■•_.<* and at others a tonic. Mr Pearson had »U££r*t«d counties and road districts . this is mow bring tried in Timaru and Westland. Let us *cc ih.* xe«*»lfc there. Mr Pearson had proposed to anukf the chasg» compulsory. He (Dr M) would *iy. sufficient to the day is the evil thereof. _Ar I*xabsox inquired of the Speaker what was the present position of tiie question, and was inJ,muii that there was an amendment before the Jioutfe by Dr Hodgkinson — "That no vote be token on Mr Pearson's motion during the present aesawu ofthe Provincial CouncU.'*'

Dr Monckton said in that case he should support the amendment. Mr M'Clttbb would also support the amendment. Our borrowing powers had been taken away, and we had had experience, ond ought to have gained by it. Mr Pearson lad spoken of Boards : unfortunately our experience of Boards was confined to the Town Board, and that had not vastly impressed us. He would remind the House that violent changes seldom succeed. The Commonwealth which superseded the monarchy of Charles was very shortly overturned by a return to monarchy. In his (Mr M'C.'s) own experience, he had seen changes foUowing each other in rapid succession with disastrous results. He saw no advantage in Mr Pearson's proposition, bt.t considered the subject had been already fully discussed, and would therefore Bay no more. Mr Abmstbong- had last night opposed the motion. He waited to see the result of experiments which were being tried in that direction j and he beUeved the adoption of the amendment would be advantageous. The Pbovincial ;Tbeisttbeb thought the question a grave one, but that the motion was inopportune. To attain the enjoyment of the millenium to which Mr Pearson would lead us, he, (Mr P) had suggested that we should destroy ourselves. Now he, (Mr B) decidedly objected to this. Mr Pearson had said the adoption of his plan would destroy commercial jealousy, and that in the event of our refusing to adopt it, we must only eke out a miserable existence. He, (Mrß) denied that either of these results must necessarily I foUow. Mr Pearson said we must go to the General Government lest we should hurt ourselves. This was something like recommending a strait-jacket to be placed on a lunatic. He (Mr B) knew weU enough that when money was parted with to a centre it was very difficult to get it back. The business at head-quarters was very slow in operation, and as an instance mentioned that a reply to a special communication having reference to mail tenders was three months in reaching us. Mb Johnston moved as an amendment — " That the form of Government at present existing in Southland has not completed ite useful function as a centre of colonization. That in prospect* of a revenue to expend in Immigration and PubUc Works, it is advisable to retain the Provincial System. That the existing form of Government is suited to the circumstances and requirements of Southland if economicaUy administered. That our Representatives in the General Assembly be requested to use their utmost influence to preserve the present form of Government." Dr Monckton said he would stiU^ support the amendment of Dr Hodgkinson. Mr Lumsden said Mr Pearson had reviewed Southland and especially the Councils of Southland, and had dwelt on their incapacity. Mr P. said Provincial CouncUs were incapable, and that provinces vvere not able to govern themselves. He had gone out of his way to have a fling at Dr Menzies, and had said that Superintendents had set the Council at defiance. To his mind the fact that the late CouncU had refused to sanction raUways was a proof that it was fit to take charge of the interests of the province. The hon. member had referred to log roUing in the General Assembly. If any thing could prevent this it was the provincial system. The log rolling was forthe loaves and fishes. The resources being divided between the General Government and the provinces operated materially to prevent this. Mb Peabson protested against the imputation of perßonahty. He stated that for Dr Menzies, as a private individual, he entertained a sincere respect, a respect based on bis knowledge of Dr Menzies' thorough integrity and desire to secure the public weal ; and tbis expression of opinion he (Mr P.) had invariably, both privately aud pubUcly, enunciated. That a difference of opinion on poUtical grounds had arisen was a subject totally apart from private feeling. He (Mr P.) would go further, and state he entertained for Dr Menzies a real Uking, and was only too sorry that he Could not pull in the same poUtical boat with the doctor. If he had referred to the iate Superintendent of Southland, he had referred also to the Superintendent of WeUington ; he had spent without appropriation, and the General Government had endorsed his acts. He considered the Superintendent as much a despot as the President of the United States. He (Mr Pearson) referring to Mr Lumsden's constitutional j weakness, said that he (Mr L.) had wished to ! drag him (Mr P.) into personal collision, and he felt it necessary to apply the lash to the hon. member. To Mr Lumsden might very appropriately be appUed the words of the bitterest satire which had been written in the EngUsh language : SkUled by a touch to deepen scandal's tints, By aU the kind mendacity of hints, WhUe minghng truth with falsehood, sneers with smiles ; A thread of candour with a web of wiles ; , A plain, blunt show of outward spoken seeming — He would not quote the next line in case of utterly disorganising Mr Lumsden's nervous system. Mr Lumsden had referred to a letter written by him (Mr P.) in which the word I occurred and had objected to it. He (Mr P.) would reccommend to the hon member the use o Webster's Dictionary: He coiiid say he had j wished to work harmoniously with the late Superintendent, being anxious for his good and for the good of the Province. He had wished to construct the raUway with EngUsh capital; and: then as regards the leasing of the raUways, he found fault with the Government for hot leasing them. Smyth, Hoyt and Co made a gopd offer, but the Council would not even look at it. The CouncU had been justly blamed for the delay in« the execution of railway works. If the offer of the General Government had been made to any private individual ' it would have been accepted,, and the Oreti line would have been finished by thistime. He believed the opposition of: the- hon

member, Mr Lumsden, to the Eastern line arose not from what he had Btated at the hustings, a want of confidence in the- Executive, but from the mention in Mr Dundas' s report of the desirabUity of its running into the Northern line at somewhere about the Junction — and then what of the sign of the clock? If this was not log-roUing, he would ask what was. By log-rol ing we had lost upwards of five thousand acres of land to pay Auckland's debt. . He opposed Mr. Johnston's amendment bn the ground that it was unwise ofthe CouncU to express a decided opinion. He had however no objection to Dr. Hodgkrnson's amendment. On the amendment being put, the Speaker declared for the Noes. A devision being called for resulted in — Ates, 3 ; Noes, 12 ; Mr. Johnston's motion was, therefore, lost. On the motion of Mr. Longuet, seconded by Mr Daniel, the further consideration of this question was adjourned until next evening^ Mr Peabson rose and said : — Before proceeding, Sir, to reply to my friend, Dr Hbdgkinson's . arguments, I wiU dismiss the Ught brigade. The member for Oreti has compared the expense of our form of government with that of America, and quoted Adam Smith's * Wealth of Rations' in support, in which that author states that three mUlions of people were weU governed for £6*4,700 a-year. But Adam Smith merely notices the effect, he had not time to ascertain the cause : De TocquevUle did. He ascertained from personal observation that the key to this social problem was to be found in the virtue of the people, a virtue which stimulated every man to exert himself and assist the Government in the repression and punishment of crime. He observed that whUe the poUce system was defective, and the number trifling, which was also the case with the Custom-house officers, yet that ih no country was there less smuggling, or where " crime more rarely eluded punishment." And he proceeds:— " The reason is that every one conceives himself to be interested in furnishing evidence of the act comnx'tted, and in stopping the deUnquent." Where a community is sufficiently virtuous to clearly discriminate between right and wrong, and sufficiently energetic to determine that right shaU be done ; then, and then only, wUla country be cheaply governed. I need hardly say that Adam Smith wrote a day or two ago. The "Inquiry into the nature and causes of the Wealth of Nations," was published in 1776. Erom the statistics of 1867, 1 gather that the civU expenditure alone, of the United States, for the year 1866, exclusive of the army and navy, interest on debt, Ac, amounted to £9,229,032 4s 6d, whfle the total for the year was £117,187,550 15»6d. Thus, thi pattern government, so fer as cheapness is concerned, has developed into as foul and rank a luxuriance as the most corrupt of the monarchical or despotic Governments of the old world, lt has fuUy reaUsed De TocqueviUe's prediction of many a by -gone year. " Wherever the poor direct public affairs, and dispose of the national resources, it appears certain, that as they profit by the expenditure of the State, they are apt to augment that expenditure. I conclude, therefore, without having recourse to inaccurate computations, and without hazarding a comparison which might prove incorrect, that the democratic government of the Americans' is- not a cheap government, aB is sometimes asserted. And I have no hesitation in predicting, that if the people of the United States is ever involved in serious difficulties, its taxation. wUI speedUy be increased to the rate of that which prevails in the greater part of the aristocracies and the monarchies of Europe." The present taxation in this vaunted, democracy, proves the soundness of the prediction. As to the statement that the people do not desire any change in the form of Government, I have no hesitation in giving it my most unqualified denial. The people, the bone and sinew of the Province, don't want twenty ;splbhs twaddling about what they do* not' understand. They want roads, and bridges, not abortive legislation. My friend, the member for InvercargUl (Mr Lumsden), is generaUy unfortunate in his metaphors and simUies, as is perhaps natural, but he is singularly unfortunate on the. present occasion. With that grim facetiousness which is so pleasing a feature of his character, he has Uliistrated his argument to prove that I desire to place the Province under the yoke.bf the General Government, with the story of the Highland mother, who encouraged her reluctant son to suffer himself to be hung, by saying, "gang awa' Donald and be hung, it' will please ta iSurd.'* Now, sir, it seems to me that we' have, been hung long enough- to please "'te Laird," aiid. so far as I am concerned I wiU see " ta laird" hung first,, before I wiU be hung for* him. ' We had chough of this fun. I don't beUeve in natural oheftianism myself, and it is to prevent the possibUity of such ' reclining again in so small a community that I bring forward my resolutions. He has also been good enough to Ukenme toa kingfisher, loolrihgbut for fresh fishing , grounds. The simile is not appropriate to. myself, inasmuch as I am peifectly satisfied with my present fishing grounds. I can presently obtain as much. fish as wUI satisfy my moderate requirements;' X 'think, , however)" .the analogy is very, appropriate to my friend, Mr Lumsden, he, is always fißhing ' to find a hole in somebody's coat. Indeed," l may consider him," su the "chief of the, : human family of kingfishers*. 1 lii Australia, the : laughing jjickass is, I bdieve, considered !by ornithologists the head of the feathered tnbe of kingfishers, I am justified therefore in cpncludipg that he may be classed as the head' of this. human kingfisher specie's". ' My friend Mr Lumsden, has entirely mistaken the purjitirtfof -my' fesplutipns. If there is to be a- change in our form 'of ! . nientj I maintain it should be in the direction . of simplicity. ' I do not beU<Bve\'in- the.*' Local . Government Bitt " brought /forward-, 'during the last session of the Assembly) it is' too complex ; nor do I beUeve in the " West^d Bill."; What I propose iB simpler and more constitutional. The chairman of my County Board is elected as weU as any othen member- composing, it.- I

.... 1 i merely advocate one municipaUty without legislative powers, whose duties ought to be solely executive; whose attention and time should.beconcentrated in developing the resources of the country, instead of being frittered away 'in attempting useless and abortive legislation. Loo not believe in mayors and corporations, in shire councUs, and road boards. They have been ' tried in Victoria and signally, failed. They are too expensive, the light is not worth the candle. I might, Sir, be more severe on the , member for InvercargUl, Mr Lumsden, particularly on; tiie score of consisency, but he is useful in Ms way ; he is not a bad hone on which to sharpen the edge of ones wit ; I wiU therefore, be merciful and dismiss him. And now, Sir, to answer seriatim, the arguments and objections of my friend, the -member for Biverton, Dr Hodgkinson. Hirst as to the simile of the banyan ti-ee. If "the indefinite number of smaUer stems supply with nourishment the main trunk," . well, but if, striking into stony soil, they do not, and instead, sap the parent stem? To again quote De Tocqueville, " Minor parties are on. the other hand, generaUy deficient in political faith. As they are not sustained or dignified by a lofiypurpose, they ostensibly display the ego** tism bf their character in their actions. They glow with a factitious zeal; their language, is vehement, but their conduct is timid and irresolute. The means' they employ are as wretched as the end at which they a"m. * * *, *. * Society is convulsed by great parties, by minor ones it is agitated ; it is torn by the former ; by the latter it is' degraded, and if these sometimes save it by a salutary perturbation, those inyaribjy. disturb it to m good purpose." As to the "geographical configuration " of the two Islands whatever may have been the difficulties of communi** cation with a common centre in the earlier days of colonization, the telegraph and steam fleet at the command of the General Government have overcome the impediments imposed by nature j not to mention the internal development of intercourse in the Middle Island. When Cobb's coaches can drive from InvercargUl to Nelson, I cannot but conclude that nature has been conquered. It matters not, therefore, whether the distance from Stewart's Island and the North Cape is equal to "that from the Straits '"of Dover to the Straits of Gibralter," when InvercargiU is within half an hour's haU of WeUington by telegraph. My honorable friend has instanced Ireland as an illustration of the evils resulting from centralisation. I need hardly remind him; that "the Green Isle" at one time enjoyed the blessings of Self-Government and a pretty mess she made of it. The little weakness of "potting" obnoxious parties from behind a hedge appears to have accompanied the change inthe form of Government. Had OUver CromweU Uved a few years longer I do not doubt that the Ireland, of the nineteenth century would have eventuated in a very different and more posperous realm than she is likely to be, either as a self-governed cbuntry or anintegral portion ofthe British Empire. In my opinion the best way but-of^he-^^H"|lifficulqr, would ; be to cut the painter, aiid aUovr them tb - govern themselves for say a year, at the end of which they would be in a similar position to that of the Kilkenny cats, nothing left but two tails; As to the comparison of areas in square -miles between the New Zealand Provinces and -the American States, possessing a federal form of Government, I maintain that when it ;; comes to a question of taxation the area is of very secondary importance ;it becomes a question of the number of people contained in that area.' IwiU take the smaUest State, Rhode Island; its area is 835,840 acres, but its population in 1860 amounted to 174,620. The estimated value of the property in the state was £30, 450,952 6s Od. Here we have then not only a large population out of which to choose representatives to fiU seats in their loca legislature but we have wealth to enable private citizens to devote sufficient time : to pohtics with-i out interefering with their private concerns, and we may not unnaturally presume, educations Eor' where a people is wealthy, the cultivation of the mind is more Ukely to ; be attended to than where they are poor or struggling ; where the perfection ' ofthe physical rather than the intel'ecfcual or moral powers is an object of practical ambition. ' In • tiie six- New England States in 1860 the inhabitants to the square mUe was 49*55. In the six ; middle states' 69*B3. It appears tome, therefore, that a comparison between these States and ourselves is absurd, and the. same: arguments are applicable^ to the Canadian . provinces. , It is a question of population not area. ■ f ßiit Dr Hodgkinson teUs us, and with great truth that < when .those States were, -first started r many a year ago*, the population was SmaU, ' and .yet* theyy, .managed , ito.'' govern themselves efficientljV . and with;, great ■• success. : ;Yet . he , khowa; as weU as I do that the Pilgrims Fathers js of America were an exceptional claiss;. : thafcltojqnote:; his words, " -English colon sts" were Men in those ,'dayß." The early -emigration to- America: waa ! the most wwnderfu! the world, has ever seen; or t will probably fever-. see. It was an emigration! of men who went forth- to conquer the.'vrilderness,' . not. because they, could make" two pounds, for..every one in the Fatherland ; but [because they < • were .not allowed to- worship their God according. " to", the (dictates of •■"; theieVcohscience, ini-.the hpmeof their forefethers; : Such men might well: - ofbund a state and govern it peaceably,; equitably, ■ c»hd -(profitably.. The; -primeval .forests which : ; echoed the tPuritan-hymnsV reverberated iwith the .'■ .hreath- of, stern,: determined: and^upright men; -,■;' a ;who^ worshiping their.'-Ghodi not with Up servient /. - ;oidy^ did nofctforgekthe* golden rulerto.? deal with . tlieii!feU6wnaen''.&B-J»hey; would wish to be dealt;;. wjith^-i Itoytdid not'attempt.tofgoverti by party,- . or spend their timesqnabblmg for the loaves jand. , fishes-.miserable as they might;have-been.(:Thase :men had learned the first greatlessqn.in aUugoV ■:■ 'vernment,- .to govern": themselves;, f - The:very:(.eir c j ample adduoed by my friend •of the : successful . conquest of the Pequod tribe of : Bed ; Indiaiwrby. / t a handful of the early .settlers of Connecticut, is- '' evidence of the absurdity of comparing' these men with ourselves. Here we nave a colony. • backed^ by- three- miUions* of money, with.

spic and span General, a large body of the finest troops in the world, an unknown quantity of cocked hats and gold lace, Armstrong guns, Enfield rifles, and aU the rest of it; and we can't Uck two or three hundred Maories. And last scene of all, the spec and span General, and troops, and the unknown quantity of cocked hats and gold lace, and all has gone home, and is doubtless blackguarding the colonists as an excuse for their owii imbecfllity. If the Americans had taken possession of New Zealand I ' have no doubt they would have v improved "the Maori off the face of the earth long ere this. It must be recoUected, however, that they are not irPubled with maudlin phUanthropists in the colony, and Exeter HaU old fogies at home, who seated comfortably in arm-chairs, by their own firesides, pity the poor peaceably , inchned Hau Hau Maori, but take uncommon good care not to come out here to be eaten by him. _ I must beg, however, to remind my friend, Dr Hodgkinson, that the America he speaks of, and the America of to-day, are two very different things. I cvi share his enthusiasm for Roger WiUiams, but where in all wide America wiU he find a Boger WiUiams now ? If he did he would find him shunted into a corner by the ,r loco focos," or " know nothings, or " blue nosed democrats," or " red hot repubUcans," or some other of the poUtical sects which are fast making the finest country God ever created, a pandemonium on earth. Irrespective, however, of the great moral advantage enjoyed by the early settlements in America, from the character of the first settlers, an advantage which lasted for, at any rate, three or four generations, inasmuch as the example of the Pflgrim Fathers could not but influence their chUdren, and their chfldren's chUdren. There is another reason why it is easier to govern a province during its earUer stages than afterwards, and it is that at first starting there is very Uttle money to spend. There is no taxation requisite to be provided for, no large pubUc works to J»e undertaken, not only because there are no funds wherewith to execute them, but because the first settlers spread about the sea-shore j as population increases a steady advance is made into the interior. These pioneers of civilization are generaUy content to force their way by their individual exertion, without clamoring for pubUc aid ; if any such is extended they receive it with gratitude. Thus the duties of government are simple in those early days, they require no great amount of education or capacity. Loans cannot be raised, so able finance is not a necessity in the official programme. Large and expensive public works are not constructed, so there is no occasion for great care and caution to prevent wasteful expenditure, which leads to heavy taxation. The hordes of mercantile wolves, who having no stake, further than paper, and make the province a hunting ground so long as the chase is remunerative, have not arrived to bring a pressure to bear on the Government and so. the Provincial ©oTmcil-can-fcwadcUe-.and.doze.»way withput much injury to the community. GovernmentSyJSir, are like private individuals in the management of money. If a man has only a shilling, the investment of it does not cost him much thought or consideration. He either has two nips or a feed, according to his tastes; but if he has fifty thousand pounds, he requires time, care, abUity, and grave consideration before he invests it, otherwise be is very Ukely to lose his substance. It is easier to make money than to keep it, at any rate I have found it bo. The Appropriation Acts for the year 1854, passed by the Provincial Council of Otago, amounted in aU to £5676 10s 6d ; the last passed by it amounted to £390,235 12s. Now, I would ask any man of business or common sense, whether it does not require more abUity and management to judiciously administer " the latter sum, than the former, whether the responsibUity is not greater, whether the maladministration of the one would not lead to more disastrous consequences than the mismanagement of the other. And mark you, that wliile the responsibUity is fearfuUy increased, whUe taxation is being heavily imposed, in consequence of past blunders, and is looming heavUy in the future, the social position and inteUectual calibre of the Provincial CouncUs throughout New Zealand is deteriorating. The best men either wiU not come forward, or, thanks to democracy, are not elected. At a recent election in another province, a man was returned to the CouncU who had just left the Lunatic Asylum. I presume his friends thought that, having got out of it, the best place for him was the Provincial CouncU. I believe, however, he has shown evidences of reason, as I learn that he was met in the street by a friend, with a large book under his arm. On being questioned he explained his reason for having it, as foUows : — " When a man gaes intal the Cuncil he mauna use lang-nebbit words he di6na ken the meanin' o', so I thocht I wad buy a dictionar." I think other members of CouncU in other provinces might with advantage to the pubUc weal foUow the example of my lunatic friend. As regards ourselves we have just had a dissolution. I leave honorable members to determine whether the present Council is equal to its predecessor. I think, Sir, I have successfuUy rebutted the charge of inconsistency made by my friend Dr Hodgkinson on the ground that whUe I acknowledged the Provincial system was weU adapted for the work of colonisation in the early days I deny that it is so now. My friend himself is a remarkable instance of the correctness of my deductions. He has only very recently been elected, and he talks of resigning because he cannot spare the time to attend the CouncU twice a year. Now, Sir, I need hardly say that Dr Hodgkinson is one of the best men we could have to administer pubUc affairs. BociaUy, inteUectuaUy, moraUy, he is admirably adapted to fiU a seat, not only in a Provincial CouncU, but to represent us in the higher legislature ; yet he grudges the time, and there are many of the best men ofthe samewayof thinking. Now, if all the best talent and intellect, is to be left out, the CouncU, if it is. to exist, wiU consist of men of inferior education .and inteUigence, who, however honesfrin intention,

cannot, from the circumstances of birth, early habits, and the hard struggle for bread they have fought in their morning of life's battle, efficiently perform the duties of legislators; They may be weU qualified to do justice to the position of a member of a County Board Buch as I propose. They wUI bo in their element attending to the material wants of. the various road districts, they could not minister 16 their intellectual require- j ments. If they do attempt it, they but become tools in the hands of the one or two educated men who wfll still enter the CouncU for the purpose of securing the loaveß and fishes. The member for Biverton has said that it wfll be stUl more difficult to obtain competent members to 611 , seats in the General Assembly than to get them? for a Provincial Council. I -cannot agree with him. The field is wider ; the 'honor, whether it ought or ought not to be so, is considered greater. Man's thirst for gain, and thirst for applause, can be better slacked at the large weU of the General Assembly than the smaU spring of a Provincial Council, and we shaU find educated and able men ready to fill the positions. It is so in other pro- - vinces where the population is not, as a rule, . wealthier. But it depends on the people themselves. I have no fear of not findin? candidates. We had the opportunity of electing an atle man who would have done us much good ; but you would not. Let the fault be on your own heads, don't blame the principle. As to the statement that we, "having only four members, cnn be swamped by the more powerful provinces — in the first place, I beg to remind my friend that the abolishment of provinces and substitution of counties cuts the Gbrdian knot of provincial jealousies and selfishness. The members for the county on the east bank of the Mataura wiU support us in the Assembly, as it wiU be their interest to do so. InvercargUl or the Bluff is their natural outlet, so we may count on them. The same may be said of the members for the county in the Wakatipu Lake district: this province is their natural outlet. In fact, at the present time, I understand goods are being forwarded fr> the Lake district from Dunedin via the Bluff. Thus, supposing each county has four members returned to ihe Assembly, wie have virtually twelve representatives to foster our interests. But granting we have only four : if they are capable men — men who have tongues in their heads and brains to direct their wagging — they can form a formidable phalanx which any Ministry must respect and accord attention. The New Zealand majority of one is matter of notoriety, and if a Ministry would not ÜBten to a, fair, just, equitable demand on behalf of the interests of the county, all the four members have to do is to kick them out of office — which fourmen of capacity alwayscpulddo^-as men unfit to be relied on in the honest discharge -of the important trusts to be confided in a central government. I do not mean :to Bay,that they should exercise their influence for mere miserable " log-rolling" purposes — such as constituted the disgrace of the Auckland members in the recent session of the Assembly, when the whole colony was mulcted to pay a debt whicli her own incapacity had created — but in obtaining straightforward honest justice for their county. Dr Hodgkinson sees no great evU arising from the want of uniformity of legislation. I mist again quote De TocquevUle on his (Dr H.s) pattern republic and favourite democracy : — "Moreover in politics, as weU as in philosophy and in religion, the inteUect of democratic nations is pecuharly open to simple and generaln otions. CompUcalci systems are repugnant to it, and its favorite conception is that of a great nation composed of citizens all resembling the same pattern, aud aU governed by a simple power. The very next notion to that of a sole and central power, which presents itself to the minds of men in the ages of equality, is the notion of uniformity qf legislation." Whether the laws passed by the State Legislatures of America are conflicting with the principles of EngUsh law I cannot say, aU I know is that the acts passed by the various Provincial CouncUs I are, according to the opinion of the AttorneyGeneral, very frequently so, as is only natural, seeing that they are passed by men, the majority of whom know nothing about the subject, though . they squabble enough over it. My friend has entirely mistaken me if he imagines that I said " that the Provincial Government of Southland cannot be continued, owing to the bad financial state of the Province." I said no such tiling. So far from this being the case I maintain that with the exception of Otago, no province in New Zealand is in as good a financial condition as ourselves. What I said was that the financial poUcy adopted at the last session of the Assembly precluded the possibility of our continuing our present form of Government for any length of time, simply because we are now left to carry out the expenses of government on an uncertain and fluctuating revenue. I beUeve Southland wiU be enabled to hold out longer than any other province except Otago, because she possesses a very considerable area of unsold and saleable land. I beUeve that for, at any rate two, may be three years, our land Bales wiU average £60,000 per annum, but even so itis a question of time. The " Public Revenues Act " was the last spoke in the wheel of Provincialism. My honorable friend is next jnbUant at the idea of my obtaining a practical idea of the drawbacks of Uving under a " mUd despotism," by sojourning in New Caledonia, or Tahiti. In the first place my despotism would be a thoroughly responsible one. An agent of the General Government would not dare to perpetrate the unconstitutional actions which have been practised by Superintendents and local Executives. If he acted foolishly he would be dismissed ; if unjustly he would lose his position ; and there is no fear but what he would have eyes enough on him. As we are, we enjoy as I have already explained, totally irresponsible despotism. One advantage about despotism is that a despot has got only one neck, whUe under a democracy the hydra headed mob has too many to be easUy twisted. As to settling in New Caledonia or Tahiti, if it was not that the cUmate of Southland is the finest I have expenened I would have gone there long ago. Under the rule

of a French satrap, sill one ha 3to do is to mind bis own businesand leave politics alone, and he wUlhave his life and property protected from the incursions of the natives, which is more than can be said for themild and benificent rule of Her Majesty in New Zealand. My friend next proceeds to offer a species of salve to all provincial ills, by recommending us to give up the plan hitherto pursued in [ the CouncU of governing by party, and suggests that an executive. should be found outside the Council, on a plan " similar to that pursued in the United States and Switzerland. 'As regards this latter point, I don't know how it answers in Switzerland; Jiow it acts- in the States wiU be shown by the following quotation from an unbiased and -impartial observer, Mr Trollope : — " It is the fault of the present system of Government in the United States that the President has tbo much of power and Weight. As "matters howstand; Congress has not that dignity of position which it shonld hold -and it is without it because it is not endowed with tbat control over the affairs ofthe "government which our Parliament is enabled: to exercise. -- The want of this close connection between Congress and the President's, Ministers has been so much' felt/ that it has been found necessary to create -.a^mediifmi of communication." In regard to the former- suggestion of not attempting government ■-'•'•by- party, I quite agree wi'h him as to the absurdity of this storm in a twopenny saucer. -But unless he-wUI undertake to alter the nature of the inhabitants of New Zealand I fear his recipe will prove valueless. The Swiss, like most people Uving in a mountainous country, are tolerably pure and simple in their habits nnd customs, not much given to talking " taU" off the top of a stismp. I daresay therefore that the system suggested by Dr Hodgkinson answers weU amongst thera. But so long as the members of this Council "stigmatize one another as "incapable,, imbecfle; untrustworthy, &c," so long wiU party Government continue. I always try, , Sir, tb look at things in a practical point of view. It is very well to say that "if so and so were so arid so it would be all right," but if so and so is not so and so it is all wrong. The Utopia presented to us of twenty men quietly concurring in everything the Government chooses to do is very nice in theory, in practice I think my honorable friend would find it rather different. I think I have now Sir successfully rebutted aU the objections raised" by Dr Hodgkinson to my resolutions. His stronghold appears to be America and its democratic institutions, but Uke most ardent admirers of the Americans, he takes very good care not to settle amongst them. I must again remind- hitn that the America, of his dreams, and the America of the present century are almost as different as the Garden ot Eden before =the faU of our first parents and the work a day world of 1868 And I believe its democratic institutions, entrusted, as experience has proved, to the hands of a pqople too demoralised to exercise /them judiciously, has led to the lamentable results developed. by the recen: internecine war One of these' has been expos; iin a recent number of "Blackwood," which I beg leave to quote. "At a local election iv Louisiana the other day, it was discovered that the number of blaok votes registered on the electoral lists was greater than that of the whole black population of men, women and chUdren ; that black- men registered themselves under different names at different times ; and that when the day of polling came, they did not remember the names they had assumed — or any other than their christian names of Csesar, Pompey, or Sambo, as the case might be. And this stupid, as weU as dishonest tampering with the sacred right conferred on t*iem — by bayonet thrust — by their Northern allies, ia represented as general in the ten Southern States, and as not unknown even in Tennesseo." I congratulate niy friend on his model republic, and the honest results of the ballot amongst these enlightened patriots. For my part, I do not believe in a democracy wh re the uneducated majority tyranises over theeducated minority. That tiie United States of America have developed into a great and wonderful country is owing to her extraordinary uatural resources and to the early founders of her constitution. The men of Bunker's HUI were very different in moral calibre to those of Bull's Bun. American institutions are now on their trial, and it is the toss up of a halfpenny whether the great Republic wiU not eventuate in a miUtary despotism. The next war will be with the Western States, whose growl is being already heard ; and it wiU prove a very different matter to the last, with the starved out Southern States. I cannot, Sir, admire or accept Dr Hodgkinson's American democracy as a pattrrn. I fear that toj much Americanism is being introduced into the mother country. If she suffers herself to be innoculated with the same rabid democracy the gn a British Empire wiU in a few years be crumpled up like a leaf, when the blast of the snow kiug saps the life out of it, just as the great Boman Empire was dissolved when the people became too demoralised to exercise their political functions with wisdom and moderation. The almost illimitable extent of country America enjoys wiU enable her to stave offtheresulte of her form of government for probably a hundred years. It takes a long time for the worm caUed man to deface the work of the Almighty : but there is an end to everything. When elbow room becomes scarce, tlie howl of the unlettered mob wUI astonish the Congress at' Washington. To return to ourselves : if anything could prove the absurdity of our continuing to carry out our present system of local government, last evening's sitting, when the licensing Ordinance was read a second time, demonstrated it. We went into committee to read it pro forma. The Speaker vacates his chair, and the Chairman pf Committees takes ir. The short title is read ; it is then moved that the Chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again. He vacates the chair, and the Speaker takes it. The Chairman of Committees with great gravity informs the Speaker that the BiU has been read a second time, aud that he asks leave to Bit again. The Speaker, with equal gravity, which does him great credit, informs

Tie Hon%.that.the..£lhauanan-.J^iie^r^d-. progress and asks , leaw ,tp--sit again. -The whole farce, which is one of the~most screaming possible to conceive, takes -a quarter: of an 1 * hour tb perform: with what results? iiTheV" settlers., want roads, ahd would prefer that the" '.Chairman- reported progress and asked leave never to sit again. Valuable time, is wasted with miserable results obtained ; for, after all, it is a , Licensing Act; Amendment Act, which wUI have to be again amended directly, simply" because it is considered by man who kuow nothing of the subject, and so the farce is continued from year's end to year's end. I have brought this .subject before the CouncU, not because I believe that the twenty Solons composing it would, to use the words of Dr Hodgkinson, " take the initiative in the formation of a new constitution for this great colony, a work which might weU employ the wisest and. moat er~ perienced sta.tesrn.en," or that if they did, ifc would have any materia' effect. I seek to 'address Sir, a wider au 'icne *, the people themselves,, whose interests are ilireeHy affected. If I ha/.l desired to carry my res Jutious, •knowing--: thafc you, like other chUdren of an older growth are " Please! with a rattle, Tickled j with a toy." , r I would have addressed the CouncU in ;a> veiy different and more complimentary manner. I have preferred to administer homj truths, hosvever bitter they may l>e : and I have the consolation of knowing, that my »b!e antagonist, Dr Hodgkinson, has been unable to deny or rebut a single accusation I have made. - He : can only " Itope we shall grow wiser by experience,'" and I can only leave him to the pleasures of imagination. My object has been obtained by the ample discussion of the subject ; I leave it to be determined by the people, bein^ perfectly confident that they are desirous of a change in some form I beg, therefore, the permission df the House to withdraw my resolution in favor of Dr Hodgkiztson's amendment. Permission granted, and Dr" Hodgkineon's amendment, " That no vote be taken on Mr Pearson's resolution during the present session of CouncU." was affirmed. '"♦