LOCAL SELF-GOVERNMENT.

Southland Times, Issue 913, 9 March 1868, Page 2

LOCAL SELF-GOVERNMENT.

Wo present to our readers tihe debate which took place last Council on the question of local self-government, at the last session. Mr Pbabsoit rose and said— Mr Speaker, before moving the resolutions which stand in my name on the Order Paper, it -will be necessary for me to detain the House some little time, while 1 explain my nwoni for introducing the motion. The subject of local self-government can be viewed in two aspects, general and local. The first as tegardi the colony as a whole, the Becond as to that section of it called the Province of Southland. I will first treat of it in its general bearing. Most honorable members must be aware that at the birth of the colony it was fo'md impracticable to colonize it from a common centre, the physical conformation of the two islands precluded the possibility of bucli ; with the meagre resources and imperfect appliances then at the command of the General Government, internal conimuniction was impossible — that by the sea-board was uncertain, tedious, and dangerous, being carried on almost entirely by small coasters. Thus various settlements wereplanted at different points on the seaboard, most of them by private enterprise. Soon it became apparent that it was necessary to have recourse to some general power and like all young British communities, however unripe for the exercise of the powers of self-go* vernment, a clamour was raised, for a constitution. Whoever has read the Constitution Act cannot but conclude that the intention Was to clothe the various Provincial Governments with purely municipal powers ; not create them sovereign and independent states, with a federation similar to that of the United States ;— if any doubt exist on this point, it must be removed by the perusal of the correspondence between Sir George Grey and the Secretary for the Colonies on the subject. ■TJnfoctunately, the Constitution Act came into operation during an interregnum. Sir George Grey had left, Col. Browne had riot arrived. At the first session of the Assembly the Superintendents of the various provinces, most of whom had been returned, accompanied by an army of local officials, Provincial Treasurers, &c, determined, and not unnaturally, that whatever was the spirit of the new Constitution, they would arrogate to themselves as much local power as possible. All being actuated by the same feeling, it became a question of mutual accommodation — in other words, to use one of the wise and pithy saws of a canny nation, " Scratch me, and I will scratch you." And they scratched one another to such purpose, that the intention of the Constitution was entirely contravened. This very excess, however, as is invariably the case, produced a consequence opposite to their intention . Wisa and sober politicians, unwilling to gratify the thirst for local power at the expense of the colony, became alarmed, hence the Centralist party wa» created. At the session of 1858 it had assumed an organisation which enabled it to re-obtain for the General, some of the most important powers which had been seized by the Local Governments. Since then the battle has been carried on with varying success, till I sincerely trust the victory in favor of Centralism will shortly be determined by the Assembly. "Sow, Sir, it appears to me that the worst phase of the system of Provincialism is this constant battle in the General Legislature. Members go up to the Assembly, not with the view of calmly and dispassionately legislating for the good of the colony atj a whole, but with the avowed purpose of securing as much 01 the loaves and fishes as possible for their respective provinces. Thus an Assembly, which socially and intellectually is superior to any legislative body in the Australasian group, is disgraced by the unseemly spectacle of what is termed " log rolling ;" and so'long as Provincialism exists, so long will the degradation continue. It is the. natural consequence of the system. Every member in Wellington feels that the eyes of his constituency are fixed on him, to see what he will do — not for the general welfare, but their individual interests. He knows what treatment he has to expect when he returns to them. If- any doubt on this point exists in his mind, it has been determined by the conduct of the people in a neighboring province, where recently the disgraceful exhibition of popular injustice was paraded againßt one of the ablest politicians in New Zealand, a man of undoubted integrity, unimpeachable probity. I refer to Major Richardson on his return to Otago from the last session but one of the Assembly. And what was the reason for this petty ebulition of spite ? At that time Taranaki had the honor of being represented by Major Richardson in the Assembly, and because he, as representative of that province, consulted the interests of his constituency, and, at the same time, the welfare of the colony, by taking an enlarged and colonial, instead of a contracted and provincial view, he was subjected to treatment which, while in reality conferring honor on him, seeing from whence it came, covered the province with disgrace; while the only excuse the people of Otago could possibly have for expressing an opinion on the Major's conduct, was the fact that he had invested considerable sums of money in the Province, and had previously devoted his time and talents to the conduct of its public affairs, having filled „the highest positions in its government to its great advantage. Now, although such treatment could have little effect on a man like Major Richardson, unfortunately, men of equal firmness and independence j are not iv the majority, and consequently such conduct on the part of a people has a demoralising tendency on its Representatives ; it turns them into political hacks to be ridden by the popular passions and vices. Therefore, I say the principle of Provincialism is a vicious one, " and deserveß to be swept away. The amount of political power presently intrusted to the hands of the provinces is too great, and is liable to be abused by every charlatan whose sole stake in the province consists of having a few hundred pounds of floating acceptances which he is prepared to dishonor at the first favorable opportunity. It exercises a vicious effect on the General Government. No premier can afford to j sail the ship of state to the best advantage for ! the colony j if he wishes to retain office he must consult every provincial breeze, the stronger the wind the more must he deviate from the straight path.' Thus, the interests of the weak are sacrificed to satisfy the cravings of the powerful, each province looking to its members to obtain as much as possible at the expense of its neighbors. So for from proving a band of union, each session of the Assembly proves it is one of discord and separation. So far from such a system tending to make New Zealand a great colony all experience has proved that the reverse is sure to ensue. Ten years experience was sufficient to prove to the United States of America that to be great they must be thoroughly united, more so than they had' at first contemplated, hence the Constitution Act superseded the articles of confederation. To quote Mr Anthony TroUopes words on this Bubject, in his work on Borth America— "But the compact between the different States, made by the articles of confederation, and the mode of national procedure therein enjoined, were found to be inefficient for the wants of a people, who, to be great, must be .united in fact as weil as name. The theory of the most democratic among the Americans of .that day was in favour of self-government earned to an extreme. Self-government was the Utopia which they had determined to realise, and they were unwilling to diminish the reality of the self-government of the individual states by any centralisation of power in one head, or in one Parliament; or un>ne set of ministers for. the nation. For ten years, from 1777 to 1787, the attempt was made, but then it was found that a stronger bond of nationality was indispensable, if any national greatness was to be regarded desirable ; indeed all manner of failures had attended the mode of national action ordained by the articles of confederation. They were giants in those days, not pigmies. Men who. had thrown off the yoke of the greatest maritime nation in the world ; who had learned the first great lesson in government, that of governing themselves, their own passions and prejudices, who. with a passionate love for local eelf-govern t

meat, after a little experience had the good sense to acknowledge their failure and be content to sacrifice their individual aggrandizement fop the benefit of the nation, and admit that the lictors fasces were powerful so long only a3 the bundle Of sticks was firmly übited. If such men as Washington, Adams, Jeffers -n, Madison, Hamilton,andFranklin, learned from experience that the nation to be great must be united, and were content to waive certrin state rights for the public weal, I think we cannot do better than be guided hy their opinion. There are not many statesmen in New Zealand who can be considered their superiors. And ni irk you, Sir, at the time of the confederation, i!u- rights of the individual •tates were clearly defined, while the powers of the President and Congress wefa as distinctly marked. Here we have a Constitution Act which, can be and is read in a different spirit by diflerent factions. The centrlists say the provinces never were intended to enjoy any powers greater than municipal ones 5 this the provincialwts deny. Thus the Assembly is the arena for a continued conflict, the one trying to repress the already exaggerated powers of the provinces, the other to obtain still greater. The consequence is an instability about the Central Government which operates unfavorably commercially on every portion of the colony. The ! system also engenders a feeling of jealousy between each province ; instead of entering " into j a firm league of friendship with each other for their common defence, the security of their liberties, and their mutual and general welfare,' experience has shown that the misfortunes of a' part is a subject of gratulation to the whole. When this province was in the throes of its difficulties the whole press of New Zealand was jubilant ; even the little abortion Marlborough had its tiny kick at us. If such are the feelings resulting from the provincial system the idea that New Zealand will ever be the Great Britain of the South is a chimera 'to be indulged in by romancists. I have not introduced the subject of a seperate goTernmentfor the two Islands, simply because the present condition of the colony, its financial arrangements, preclude the possibility of a separation, and I hold that at the present conjuncture of affairs it is of imperative importance that we should deal practically with the question. I shall be told by my hon. friend the member for Kiverton, (Dr Hodgkinson), that in America a similar form of local self-government his existed for years, that it is a cheap and effective form of administration, and that the states are very jealous of any interference with, their rights on the part of the General Government. In the first place each state started as free, independent, and sovereign within its own dominions, with the rights and duties of the G-eneral and Local Governments clearly defined ; we did not ; consequently I cannot consider the analogy by any means perfect. As regards its moral success, to again quote Mr Trollope, "It is well known that politicians find their way into the Senate and into the Chamber of Representatives solely with a view to the loaves and fishes. The very word • politician ' is foul and unsavoury throughout the states, and means rather a political blackleg than a political patriot. It is useless to blink this matter in speaking of the politics and policy of the United States. The corruption of the venal politicians of the nation stinks aloud in the nostrils of all men." If such is the result of democratic institutions in America, where they have had a fair and lengthened trial, I, as a humble unit of the commonwealth of New Zealand, decline accepting America as my model. The America of today, and that of Washington's time, are as widely apart as are the two poles asunder.- And I believe it is her form of government which has compassed ao lamentable an end to her bright day dream of 1777. And now, Sir, to treat the subject in it 3 local phase. As I have once before remarked in this House, this province began its young career under more favorable auspices than any other province in New Zealand. The lands are fertile, its grazing capabilities are unsurpassed by any in New Zealand, the natural configuration of the country aided in cheap roadmaking, the main lines being along flat lands. We have had such a number of chances thrown at our feet one would feel inclined to believe in the old legend, that some good fairy had presided at the birth of the province; and come to our assistance in every difficulty but we would not. Although I have little hesitation in asserting that this province is even now in a more . flourishing and Btable condition than most of the provinces of New Zealand — indeed, second to none, I maintain that it ought, if properly handled, to be in an infinitely superior condition to that of any ; and I believe that the system of Provincialism is the cause of its not being so. I will first review its present financial position. I will take as my basis the Report of the Committee of the General Assembly on the subject of the construction of the .Northern and Eastern lines of Bailway in the province. I find it estimated that "The amount payable on Provincial Debt is ...' £27,000 " Colonial expenditure, Provincially charged about ... 8000 £35,000 "Beceivable by Colony, being half probable consolidated revenue ... ... £20,000 "Pasturage rents ... 8000 28,000 " Probable annual deficit, to be defrayed out of land Fund before Southland can receive anything from that source ... ... 7000 This for interest of debt and General Government purposes. The expenses of provincial administration is estimated at £12,000 a-y ear, while the provincial revenue raised by the Council is supposed to yield £9000. Thus at least £10,000 must accrue from land sales before a penny can be expended on roads or other public works. If the land sales progress favorably, well ; if not, we must shut up the public offices and send the key to the Colonial Secretary. It is a matter for your consideration whether you concede the proposition at once, or remain to be forced into it. While I feel convinced that during the present year, the land fund will fully realise our anticipations, I am equally convinced that the attempt to continue the Provincial form of G-overnment, with an uncertain sndfluctuatingrevenue,willproTe a failure. And now politically, taking a retrospect of the past, two questions present themselves. Can the Provincial Council do any good ? Has it done harm to the community ? As to the first, the Council got alarmed at the conduct of the late Superintendent (Dr Menzies), during its sixth session in 1864, and took its first stand. It passed during that session an Executive Council Ordinance, curtailing and denning the powers of the Superintendent, also a Ordinance, for the purpose of appealing to the country, in reference to the Snperintendency. This was the most important work of that session, one to which the Council had devoted its most earnest attention ; the result being that the Superintendent took no notice of the wishes of the Council, further than stating that as he disagreed with it on those questions he would not forward the Bills for the Governor's assent. At the next session of the Council, the Superintendent met it without an Executive. Fair, just, And liberal overtures were made to him by the Council, but he declined them, and determined to act independently, and in direct opposition to their wishes ; which was evinced by his retaining in the public service officers whose salaries were not voted in the Appropriation Act, passed by the Council with the view of reducing official expenditure. Thus, it wonld appear that a Provincial Council is powerless to do good even if it wishes it. Nor is the case of Southland peculiar. Almost every Superintendent in New Zealand has, at one time or other, set his Council at defiance Proiiiieso for good has it proved itself baneful for harm ? In the time oJ our greatest depression, when it seemed useless to dream of finishing the Northern line of iiailway, our good fairy came to our rescue. Before the .Bluff Harbor and Invercargili line was opened, we had two offers from a contractor, one to finish the Northern line for a lease of it and the Bluff Line, the other for working the latter, which offers I will now read. At the

last session but oue of the late Provincial Council, I moved for the appointment of a Com' mitte ■: to enquire into these offers, to see if it was not feasible to have constructed by private enterprise a work which the Government was unable to perform. 1 nominated the ablest and most elfi-.riont men n the House. To my surprise the motion was io-it. The wonderful obtuseness, the astounding incipaoity which could refuse to entertain su.-h a proposition staggers belief. It ha? been :>i: cj stated in. excuse by some of those wfi'j oppi) p ! 'it, that the motion was brought forward at th en d of the session. The statement, Sir, is as fa'se as the judgment which rejected the proposition. The Council met on the 14th of January, 1867 ; I brought forward the motion on the 17th, and the House was not prorogued till the 2nd oi February. Two or three evenings were spent twaddling about an Education Ordinance, which every member must have known would, if passed, prove abortive, simply because the Government had not the funds wherewith to carry out its provisions ; while a matter of such importance as tha construction of a great public work, at no cost to the state, was passed over as of too little import. Had there been no impediment in the shape of a Provincial Council, but an agent appointed Iby the General Government, this work, which will now cost 60,0u0 acres of land, would have been done for nothing. I am inclined to blame the Government for not accepting the offer without consulting the Council in the matter, but you have so bullied and worried your Executives with low imputations and base insinuations, that they dare not do good even if they have the desire, ilad I been a member of the Government at the time the offer was made, I would not hare troubled myself with consulting you, but have done the province a service in despite of the Council. Well, Sir, having lost this chance, our good fairy did not desert us. The present Superintendent, Mr Taylor, after a long correspondence, induced tho General Government to sanction the allocation of land for the completion of the Northern line of rail, and the construction of the Eastern line to the banks of the Mataura. Again the Provincial Council proved a stumbling-block to the onward progress and development of the province. The few squatting members in the Council twisted the opposition round their fingers, and " small blame to them " I say. They defended the interests of their class, and the result was what it always will be, that educationl and intellect got the better of ignorance and incapacity. Xhus we lost the opportunity of permanently opening up our interior, and investing our lands for our own benefit instead of having them taken from us to pay the debts of our neighbors, as in the case of the province of Auckland recently, to pay whose debt we have been irulcted to the extent of upwards of £5000. I think Sir, that as far as we are are concerned, I have proved that a Provincial Council is powerless to do good, and powerful to da harm. Whatever may be said of the older and original provinces the new ones have proved abortions. Nature resents any attempt to deyelop animal life under conditions such as it had not intended. A French physiologist confined some tadpoles j under water in the dark. Eemoved from the natural stimulus of light, they did not develop legs and arms at the proper period of their ! growth, and become frogs, they swelled and spread into gigantic tadpoles. As it was with the Frenchman's tadpoles, so has it happened with the new provinces ; at the time when they ought to have developed into frogs they became nothing but huge tadpoles. Commercially, the Provincial system is a curse. It engenders animosities which, prove detrimental to private enterprise. I know of instances in this town where storekeepers dare not record their votes at an election for fear of losing customers, having learnt by bitter experience, that to take part in a local election ensures a loss in trade. Socially it is a curse. It sows discord and disunion in private life, where such would not otherwise enter, and after ail it is the apple of the Dead Sea, rotten at its core. Lord Brougham with his usual perspicacity, in his work on the British constitution, has tersely and aptly described this prejud : cial state of feeling. He says : — " It may be doubted if the existence of a small community is of itself desirable for the improvement of society. Undoubtedly, great public spirit may be expected to prevail, and the i feelings of patriotism to be excited, or rather be habitual with the people, each individual of whom feels his own weight and importance, in- ! stead of being merged in the countless multitude of a larger state. But this advantage is more than counter-balanced by the restlessness which arises among all the people, when each takes as much interest in the State's concerns as if they were his own. There is thus produced both an over zeal, a turbulent demeanor, a fierce and grsping disposition hardly consistent with the peace of the community, and also a proportionate inattention to men's private affairs inconsistent with the dictates of prudence, as well as a disregard of the domestic ties equally inconsistent with amiable character, and with the charities of private life." j Under the provincial system we are told we have ! a responsible Government, this Sir I deny. Of all irresponsible despots, a Superintendent is ] perhaps the most complete. For four years he can do what he pleases to set the Council and people at defiance, and both are powerless to redress their grievances. Superintendents have spent money without appropriation, have misappropriated funds from their legitimate purpose, have set their Councils at defiance, and have done so with impunity ; and if they play their cards properly, just before the expiration of their term of office, they stand a good chance of being re-elected. Nor is a Provincial Executive a responsible body, simply because there are so few men in the Council either capable or willing to undeatake the duties ; thus to find two Executives is almost impossible, to obtain one tolerable one sufficiently difficult, however much they may have mismanaged matters, then* faults are condonedowing to the difficulty of obtaining successors. In our own case for instance, at the last session of the last Council the Executive was turned out of office and stigmatised as imbecile incompetent and untrustworthy. The opposition enter office, and in three month s prove themselves imbecile, in- } competent and untrustworthy by getting helplessly involved ; not as they state from ! having accepted the estimates of their predecessors, but from sheer want of business capacity, which could not distinguish the diHerenee between an appropriation and tho actual possession of the money, and spent it simply because it was on the estimates. We are therefore, in this position, either we have to keep in office the present Executive, or to replace them with one which has proved itself worse. And this is responsible Government. But the most amusing part of the business is that while you are fuming and fretting as to who should be Provincial Treasurer, j ! it is in reality the manager of the Bank who ! decides the question. Governments, like private ( individuals, must have credit occasionally ; and though you say who you want as Provincial Treasurer, if the manager of the Bank wont, the matter is at an end. My friend, the member for Invercargill, Mr Lumsden, stated in extenuation of the misdeedi of the Executive of which he formed so brilliant a member, that they could get no credit from the Bank. No, Sir, I shouid think they could not. The manager of a Bank is supposed to have a head upon his shoulders. It may be urged that this state of things could be remedied by a dissolution, by which a fresh batch of men could be obtained. This I deny, and circumstances bear me out in my assertion. Before the last dissolution, I stated that it would be useless, fo" that almost every member would be returned again if he chose to stand, and as Mr Merryman says in the circus, "here we are again." We started from a given point, we have been all round the circle, and we have reached exactly where we started from, the same Superintendent and the same Provincial Treasurer, and here we intend to remain, Sir. I will now, Sir, proceed to the digestion of my resolutions. The first tiiree require no particular comment, and have in reality been already accepted by the Council, when Mr Cuthbertson's resolutions were passed. The fourth will require some little explanation The Prpvincial system abolished, and counties

subdivided into road districts substituted, I propose one Board for each county in lieu of the present Provincial Councils, the duties of which ■would consist in the exercise of, and supervision oi er, all purely municipal matters, it would rate each road district according to a scale fixed by law, would apportion to each a proportion of any funds which might accrue to each county after the interest for debt, the expenses for government, and the construction of the main lines of road, in accordance with what each district raised by local assessment, having at the same lime in this supplementation a due regard to the amount of public money which had been spent in each district prior to the change in the form of government. The Chairman of the Board would correspond with the General Q-overnment on all subjects of internal administration requiring the attention of a central authority, such as immigration, education, &c. I propose that this Board should be elected, say for four years, in a manner Bimilar to that in which the Superintendents of the original provinces are, by the whole body of tho electors in the county, not by each district. By this me ins I think you would obtain a better body as a whole, and there would not be any local jealousies or prejudices to warp their judgment ; nor would ! each member feel in duty bound to obtain for the j district which returned him as much money as I possible, to the detriment of a more necessitous j district, for they would be returned by the whole i county. Thus all this scrambling which now takes place would be avoided. A proportion of the members to retire annually, though eligible for re-election ; the Chairman, he who had been returned by ihe largest number of votes, to retire with the last batch, and be also eligible for reelection. Thus the people would by the frequent changes find out who were ttie most capable men, and be enabled to retain their services, instead of having their hands tied for four years, as at present. The Chairman would require to be paid, as his duties would necessitate, his constant attention: he would have one clerk, and a road surveyor which need be the whole municipal staff. The other members of the Board would require to meet perhaps quarterly. If the chairman was competent, their work would be cut and dry for them, and the sittings would not require to occupy at most, two days, inasmuch as t'aeir time would not be fritterred away by attempting abortive legislation. They could be paid a pound a day. This, Sir, while I believe it would prove a more effective, would be a more economical system than a Provincial Council, Soad Boards, and municipalities, with all the paraphernalia of clerks, assessors, and surveyors. As regards the next resolution, I think few will deny that the police and gaols should be under the control of a Central Government, and removed from local pressure, if they are efficiently to perform their duty. I do not say the expense will be less, but I say that every policeman in the discharge of his duty has palpably placed before him the fact that if he prove obnoxious in the discharge which he is sworn to perform to some person possessing local influence, or having friends in Council, very different to those of Arthur Heii><, he renders himself liable either to be dismiss J, or to have his pay cut down. I cast noreiLction on our «wn police force, which, I believe, is in as highly efficient a condition as any in the colony, but human nature is human nature. It is not long since that, in a neighboring province, the police were instructed by the local authorities to withstand and oppose the wishes of the Central Government j a position which, to say the least of it, is anomalous. Besides, should a province get into difficulties, and be unable to pay the police and gaol, the forces become disorganised, the servant becomes master of the situation, not to mention the absurdity of a warrant from one province becoming valueless on crossing an imaginary line into a neighboring province. As regards the Land and Survey Departments, I hold that of all Departments they should be freed from local pressure. The "Waste Land Board should be placed in a position to stand between the Government and the people, which it is difficult to obtain where the salaries are voted locally by some of the very men on whose cases the Board has to adjudicate. It places the members of the Board in an unfair position. As to the Survey Department, most members will recollect the strictures and resolutions passed by the Council on the Waste Land Board, by interested persons, on the expense of the system of survey. Of course the Board stood firm, and would allow no interference with its functions, but it was not a pleasant position to be placed in. Fortunately, it was supported in its decision by the Secretary for Crown Lands, whose long experience enabled him to form a correct opinion on a subject about, which the Council was totally ignorant. The Chief Surveyors report on the amount and cheapness of the work executed ably refutes the aspersions cast by the Council; inasmuch as it proves that the surveys under the system inaugurated by him are by far the cheapest in either New Zealand or the Australian Colonies, and I am certain they are quite as, if not more, efficient. This, Sir, is the sum and substance of my resolutions, and I think that were a measure brought into the Assembly, altering our present form of Government in a somewhat similar manner, providing at the same time the settlement on each province or county of its land fund, wherewith to pay its liabilities and expenses of government, any balance left being handed over to be dealt with by the County Board, j we would be better and more effectively governed than under our present system. Individually, lam inclined to think that a mild despotism for small provinces [ like this, would be the best form of Govern- • ment, because the head that thinks, owns the hand which acts, and thus rapidity of execution — a great object, always supposing it is in the right direction — for small communities would be obtained. The tide can then be taken at the flood, and we have had painful experience how the ebb has set in owing to delays thrown in the way by our present hybrid form of government. This, of course, Sir, is impracticable, because Englishmen will have something to say and to do as to the way they are to' be governed. I suppose they would rather be governed badly their own way, than well governed any other way. It appears to me that the Provincial Council, while it has proved itself powerless to do good, has flhewn that it is powerful to do harm, and therefore I think it is an institution which ought to be swept away. I do not mean to say that this Council has mismanaged its affairs in a greater degree than the Councils of other provinces ; on the contrary, I think we have done as well as most, certainly better than Auckland. Nor will I mislead you by stating the expenses of government will be lessened by the projected change. I don't believe they will; but I think we shall have a more effective government. Feeling, Sir, so deeply on the subject, I conceive it to be my duty, a dwty I owe to my constituency, the country of my adoption, and myself, to do everything in my power to I'emedy the evils under which we presently labor. I beg, therefore, tomove "That the form of government at present existing in New Zealand, viz., by Provincial Governments controlled by a General Government, is no longer suited to the circumstances and requirements of the colony, and demands immediate modification." "That a Central Government and Legislature for the two islands would greatly conduce to the efficient performance of the functions of government, the financial credit of the colony, and the general good of the community." " That to effect such a change the colony should be divided into counties and subdivided into road districts." . . . - ; " That the purely municipal administration of affairs in each county should be vested in a Board ; the members of , which should be elected in a manner similar to that prescribed for the election , of Superintendents under Clause 4 of the Constitution Act." "That the police, gaol, harbor, land and survey departments should be under the entire .control of the General Go^ eminent." " That our representatives in the General Assembly be requested to use their utmost influence for the attainment of such a change in the present form of Government." " That a copy of the foregoing resolution be sent to tho honorable the Colonqlial Secretary."

Dr Hodgxikson made a very long apaech in reply, which we regret was not reported ; nor has it since been supplied, although it has api peared elsewhere. Under these circumstances, it is to be regretted that it cannot appear. Dr Monoktojt, said that circumstances alter cases. A few months since we might hare been desirous of a change, but then we were in debt heavily, and without power to obtain funds, and however readily we might have been disposed to ask to be relieved from our responsibility and to put ourselves into leading strings then, it was a different thing now we had fundß and prosperity appeared to be dawning on us. In physicians' practice it was sometimes necessary to administer a purge and at others a tonic. Mr Pearson had suggested counties and road districts . this is now being tried in Timaru and Westland. Let us see the result there. Mr Pearson had proposed to make the change compulsory. He (Dr M.) would say, sufficient to the day is the evil thereof. Mr Peaeson inquired of the Speaker what was the present position of the question, and was informed that there was an amendment before the House by Dr Sodgkinson — " That no vote be taken on Mr Pearson's motion during the present session of the Provincial Council." Dr Moncktok said in that case he should support the amendment. Mr M'Clttbb would also support the amendment. Our borrowing powers had been taken aw:iv, and we had had experience, and emails to have gained by it. Mr Pearson had spoken of Boards : unfortunately our experience of Boards was confined to the Town Board, and that had not vastly impressed us. He would remind the House that violent changes seldom Bucceed. TheJCommonwealth, which superseded the monarchy of Charles was very shortly overturned by a return to monarchy. In his "(Mr M'C.'s) own experience, he had seen changes following each other iv rapid succession with disastrous results. He saw no advantage in Mr Pearson's proposition, but considered the subject had been already fully discussed, and would therefore say no more. Mr AemsteonG- had last night opposed the motion. He waited to see the result of experiments which were being tried in that direction ; and he believed the adoption of the amendment would be advantageous. The Peoyinoiaii Tbeisttbeb thought the question a grave one, but that the motion was inopportune. To attain the enjoyment of the millenium to which Mr Pearson would lead us, he, (Mr P) had suggested that we should destroy 1 ourselves. Now he, (Mr B) decidedly objected to this. Mr Pearson had said the adoption of his plan would destroy commercial jealousy, and that in the event of our refusing to adopt it, we must only eke out a miserable existence. He, (Mrß) denied that either of these results must necessarily follow. Mr Pearson said we must go to the General Government lest we should hurt ourselves. This was something like recommending a strait-jacket to be placed on a lunatic. He (Mr B)' knew well enough that when money was parted with to a centre it was very difficult to get it back. The business at head-quarters was very slow in operation, and as an instance mentioned thafrareply to a special communication having reference to mail tenders was three months in reaching us. ' Dr Mokckton said he would still support the amendment of Dr ffodgkinson. Mr Ltjmsdak said Mr Pearson had reviewed Southland and especially the Councils of Southland, and had dwelt on their incapacity. Mr P. said Provincial Councils were incapable, and that provinces were not able to govern themselves. He had gone out of his way to have a fling at Dr Menzies, and had said that Superintendents had 6et the Council at defiance. To his mind the fact that the late Council had refused to sanction railways was a proof that it was fit to take charge of the interests of the province. The hon. member had referred to log rolling in the General Assembly. If any thing could prevent this it was the provincial system. The log rolling was for the loaves and fishes. The resources being divided between the General Government and the provinces operated materially to prevent this. Me PEABSOST protested against the imputation of personality. He stated that for Dr Menzies, as a private individual, he entertained a sincere respect, a respect based on his knowledge of Dr I Menzies' thorough integrity and desire to secure i the public weal ; and this expression of opinion ; he (Mr P.) had invariably, both privately and ] publicly, enunciated. That a difference of opinion on political grounds had arisen was a subject totally apart frooi private feeling. He (Mr P.) would go further, and state he entertained for Dr Menzies a real liking, and was only too sorry j that he could not pull in the same political boat with the doctor. If he had referred to the late i Superintendent of Southland, he had referred also to the Superintendent of Wellington j he had spent without appropriation, and the General Government had endorsed his acts. He considered the Superintendent as much a despot \ as the President of the United States. He (Mr Pearson) referring to Mr Lumsden's constitutional weakness, said that he (Mr L.) had wished to drag him (Mr P.) into personal collision, and he felt it necessary" to apply the laeh to the hon. member. To Mr Lumsden might very appropriately be applied the words of the bitterest satire which had been written in the English language : Skilled by a touch to deepen scandal's tints, By all the kind mendacity of hints, While mingling truth with falsehood, sneers with smiles ; A thread of candour with a web of wiles ; A plain, blunt show of outward seeming — Ho would not quote the next line in case of utterly disorganising Mr Lumsden's nervous system. Mr Lumsden had referred to a letter written by him (Mr P.) in "which the word I occurred and had objected to it. He (Mr P.) would reccommend to the hon member the use of Webster's Dictionary. He could say he had wished to work harmoniously with the late Superintendent, being anxious for his good and for the good of the Province. He had wished to construct the railway with English capital; and then as regards the leasing of the railways, he found fault with the Government for not leasing them. Smyth, Hoyt and Co made a goad offer, but the Council would not even look at it. The Council had been justly blamed for the delay in the execution of railway works. If the offer of the General Government had been made to any private individual it would have been accepted, and the.Oreti line would have been finished by this time. He believed the opposition of the hon member, Mr Lumsden, to the Eastern line arose not from what he had . stated at the hustings, a want of confideuce in the Executive, but \ from the mention in Mr Dundas's report of the desirability of its running into the Northern line at somewhere about the Junction — and then what of the sign of the clock? If this was not log-rolling, he would ask what was. By log-rolling we had lost upwards of five thousand acres of land to pay Auckland's debt. He would, however, be content with ventilating (he matter, and withdraw the resolution standing in his name, believing that the Council would affirm them at a future period. Dr Hodgkinson's amendment was then affirmed.