EVENING SITTING.

Southland Times, Issue 726, 20 September 1867, Page 3

EVENING SITTING.

Present, all the members, Mr Armstrong, pursuant to notice, moved a resolution affirming the desirability of the election of Superintendent directly by the electors, instead of through their representatives in the Conncil. He said that he had given notice of the motion when not a member of the Provincial Government which was not therefore identified with it. With regard to the practice introduced under the new Provinces Act he would like to have known the motives of the General Government. He supposed, at that time, there were not many electors, and by the time a Provincial Council was constituted there were few left. Taking for granted that the wisdom of the province was faithfully represented in the Council, its election of a Superintendent might be a better plan than by the electors generally— some of them being altogether ignorant, others half-educated, and led by the newspaper to which they happened to subscribe. Under all the circumstances, however, he deemed it would be better the election should not be left with the 20 members but be removed to the electors at large as a body less likely to be biassed by personal feeling. There were few persons who could hold up their heads and say they were superior to such influence, and, therefore,although without socialist feelings, he thought it would be' better to remove temptation. Of course electors were only men, but, as outsiders, it was probable they would take a calmer and more dispassionate view. He could not help thinking that a tone of bitterness and rancour prevailed, while the; Council sat, as a consequence of the struggle which almost inevitably took place at the outset, although he hoped it would not be the case this time, : as they had come to an amicable arrangement. Still, to meet the very possible contingency of there being more than two candidates, some having four or five votes, and others seven or eight, and a consequent impossibility of obtaining the absolute majority required by law, he thought it would be wiser to obtain the alteration. Certainly if the parties were conscientiously opposed, they could not combine to give an absolute majority to any one candidate without acting against their convictions. He (Mr Armstrong) thought it would be better that the Council should meet, having a Superintendent elected, and a Government ready with a policy. He must admit that he did not like the plan even then, but would rather have the Superintendents of all the provinces nominated by the Governor. Dr Monckton seconded the motion, as one calculated to do away with a very great cvil — that of making the Superintendency an election question, to the possible exclusion from the Council ot the persons best qualified to act as representatives, and carry on the business of the Council. Mr Cuthbertson fully endorsed the opinion expressed by the last speaker. He did not, however, think the question was one requiring immediate decision by the Council. The present practice had its advantages and disadvantages — one reason probably of the framers of the New Provinces Act, was to accomplish a saving of expenditure, such as was once effected in Taranaki (one of the older provinces), where the Superintendent personally fulfilled his own duties, and those of Treasurer, Secretary, and Executive generally — meeting the Council with estimates, and forcing a dissolution if they were fallen foul of. If such had been the case, and a Superintendont could be found physically adapted to perform the work Of "three single gentlemen rolled into one," a great saving might be accomplished by the adoption of such a system. He made these remarks while favorable to the election by the people, but deprecated an immediate and final decision ; preferring if the motion was pushed, to move the previous question. Mr Ross — in moving " that the House do resolve itself into Committee on the whole question,". said he would refer to the remarks of the previous speaker, on the motives of the framers of the "New Provinces Act." He (Mr Ross) was of opinion that it was for a different reason altogether. Having been in New Zealand at the time, he knew that between the Superintendents of two of the older provinces (Nelson and Wellington), and the Councils, there existed a chronic state of warfare, and that the alteration was introduced in the belief that greater harmony would be secured, : Mr Johnston; approved pf the object of the motipu, but \iTQuld support thewaaniment fop going Inta mmmitfco, ft*

the wording of the motion was not quite what he desired. Mr Armstrong, rather than the House should go into committee, would withdraw the motion -altogether. The Speaker- intimated that a Committee .. was desirable in order to obtain a full expression of opinion. The amendment having been carried, the Council went into Committee. Mr Cuthbertson in the chair. Mr Wilson spoke at some length on the subject, pointing out that, in his opinion, the resolution was # too loosely constructed to be effectual in bringing about the result aimed at. He would move as an amendment " That the present system of electing the Superintendent under the ' New Provinces Act,' is extremely pernicious, and interferes most injuriously with the free and independent election of members of Council; that the contentions introduced into the Council by consequence of the present principle of electing the Superintendent, obstruct the business of the Council, and are adverse to the general interest and public service of the Province ; that there are causes whereby it would be impossible to obtain an * absolute majority ' without members of Council compromising their independent action for the purpose of preventing a deadlock ; that the Superintendent of Southland should be chosen in the same manner as the Superintendents of.the other provinces, namely, by the direct vote of the electors of the Province." Mr Lumsden did not attach much importance to the resolution, which would probably be regarded at head-quarters as a last bubble arising from the " troubled waters" of election excitement. The question was a wide one, and there was much to say on both sides. As likely to settle the question he would move a further amendment — " That in the opinion of this Council the mode of electing Superintendents under the new Provinces Act — viz., by the Provincial Council, instead of a popular vote, is entirely unsatisfactory; and this Council would strongly urge upon the attention of the General Government . the propriety of providing for the amendment of the new Provinces Act, so as to make elections of Superintendents conform in mode to the provisions of the Constitution Act, having reference to such elections; and that this resolution be forwarded to the General Government." Mr Pearson would move another amendment — " That the consideration of the subject relative to an alteration in the election of Superintendent under the new Provinces Act, be postponed." With reference to what had been said by the hon member for Oreti about physical capacity, and what had been done in an older Province he (Mr P.) would remark that the first Superintendent did not take a seat in the Council, as it was considered his dignity would .be compromised if he were brought into collision with the Council. Physical capacity or incapacity had nothing to do with it, and indeed the assumption of the duties of .a full executive by a Superintendent had, he* believed, only occurred once. After a further discussion, Mr Pearson's amendment was put and carried. The Speaker having resumed his seat, the Chairman reported progress. Mr Armstrong moved the resolution standing in his name, affirming the desirability of completing the Oreti Railway, &c; [one of the resolutions so well known as the " Railway Resolutions."] He stated that he did so more for the purpose of testing the feeling of the Council, the personnel of which was much the same as before, when a similar resolution was rejected on the ground of informality. To be of any use the expression of the Council must be forwarded to the. General Government before the Assembly proceeded to consider the reports drawn up by committees of both Houses.' The arguments, pro and con had been already discussed at great length.— the Council had last session affirmed the principle, but differed in opinion as to the way of carrying it out. The succeeding motion on the Order Paper, that no_ action should be taken without the sanction of the Council, would relieve the minds of those hon members who were anxious about the disposal of the land when acquired. Dr Monckton, in seconding the motion, regretted that a more competent person had not done so. He thought the resolution, as an expression of opinion, should be passed in order to place their representatives in the north in possession of their views. Dr Monckton said he had almost forgot to.mention that the measure was pre-eminently a Government one, on which they were prepared to stand or fall- .'.. ' Dr Hodgklnson expressed surprise at: the apparent lack of interest in the' question. There was rio_ time to f lose. There was a chance yet, as. a letter] by Mr Stafford simply pointed out the informality of the resolution passed at the last session of Council, in that it' Mcd to. mk a speqiflo quantity <$ \wi K •

JDhc Provincial Secretary considered the completion of the Oreti line a work of absolute necessity. Its unfinished condition tended to stop immigration, as people were inclined to think that the place where an undertaking of such magnitude was unfinished could not be fit to live in. The resolution supplied the defect of the one previously passed by the Council, by specifying the quantity of land, and it was supposed that a grant might yet be secured. The objection that the land would pass out of the control of the Council had been provided against, and a preliminary contract was much more likely to be entered into when it was known that land had been set apart, than otherwise. He did not personally consider there was anything in the Waste Lands Act rendering compulsory the pre-existence of a contract to the passing of a resolution, and thought they would do the best under the circumstances by passing it in the meantime, and then have a preliminary contract, to be dealt with as the Council should determine. Mr LuaiSDEisr considered his conduct would be inconsistent if he did not again oppose the resolution on the same grounds as on a previous occasion. The mover aud seconder assumed they were correct in the manner they introduced the question to last Council, while he (Mr Lumsden) held the opinion that a prior contract or agreement to contract • must exist. By a similar motion to that before the House the Bluff line completion contract was confirmed, and in that view he feared an attempt would be made to again hoodwink the General G-overnment and get the land beyond control. He did not see why, as they had the land, works involving such large expenditure should not be entered upon as though there were i £250,000 in the Treasury coffers to be voted in the regular way instead of under the 36th clause, which embodied the principle of irresponsible expenditure. Even the expenditure of 250 acres of ••- land without a vote of the Council was objectionable, while to give that power ; over 250,000 would be dangerous, if not suicidal, on the part of the Council. He wished tb let Mr Stafford know that they ' interpreted the Act in a common-sense way. The very first line of the clause, "If the Superintendent shall contract" showed the intention. It was evidently intended to meet the case of a settler residing at a distance, placing him beyond the visits of the engineer — who wished to erect a bridge or make a piece of road through a swamp, and whom the j Superintendent might agree to pay in land. The late Superintendent did so — he went beyond the 1,000 acres j allowed for the year and spent ! the land receivable till March next. Mr Lumsden read extracts from the - correspondence in support of his view, and ultimately proposed the following amendment — " That this Council considers it inexpedient to recommend for the confirmation of the G-overnor in ■ Council a reserve of 60,000 acres of land in terms of sub-section 2, clause 36, .♦'Waste Lands Act, 1865," for the : finishing of the Oreti Railway, until a Zboaa fide and approved contractor has entered into an agreement with the Government to construct the works in accordance with the conditions submitted by the General Government." -Mr Ross seconded the amendment, at '/the sarnie time expressing his full concurrence in the opinion of the mover, that the effect of the original resolution .would be to really place the land beyond the control of the Council. The land for the completion of the Bluff line voted in the same way actually proved to be so, for the Council had really no subsequent -voice in the matter. When 25,000 acres had been dealt with in the most careless way, they had a committee of investigation, but that was a poor satisfaction for the waste caused by bungling. The late Council felt that more information was -required on the whole matter, and therefore placed a sum of money on the estimates to see whether the scheme was practicable for the sum proposed. Dr Moncktost said the G-overnment did not think it advisable to incur further expense until the Council had decidedly expressed its opinion. Mr Johnston had expected to hear a ieen discussion, and was disappointed. -He thought they must pass a special xecomendation to grant the land although ! he fully admitted that a preliminary contract must be entered into. They simply affirmed the pnncipla by the resolution. -- Mr Cuthbeetson said that if nothing "more was involved in the resolution than indicated by the last speaker he should like to see it carried, considering, as he did, that snch large unfinished works were a disgrace to the province. To the first part of the resolution he was sure they all agreed. The next, referring. to ithe gauge being the same as the Bluff line, he demurred to, on the ground that a Commission had been appointed to inquire into the subject with a view to the adoption of one system throughout the colony. One great objection also to the resolution was that motion 3tfo, §,

(requiring the sanction of the Council to any arrangement with the contractors), had been withheld. (Oh, oh, "from Mr Armstrong). The hon member's interjection might have a very comprehensive, meaning, but he (Mr Cuthbertson), strongly objected to the Oreti line being j completed as begun, with white pine, or mero, instead of black pine rails, and with gradients that, by some peculiar agency, showed the embankments everywhere lower, and the cuttings higher than provided in the specifications, (laughter) so much so that the earthwork would require to be gone over again if the line were to be made like the Bluff railway — not that the latter was much to boast of. He (Mr Cuthbertson) remembered that the last Council passed a resolution authorising the calling for conditional contracts, and also at that time a gentleman — not a member of the Council — said to him " Its no use, sir; they may advertise as much as they like; there are no contractors out of the Province will offer but the one having plant, &c, on the spot." Now he found, that no conditional contract had been made, (hear, hear,) and he wished to fix the responsibility on those gentlemen opposite, who had for three months done their best to obstruct the action proposed to enable the Province to get offers from without, and place it beyond a recurrence «pf the "compound rail," of which he unfortunately knew but too much. As to the supervision by a general government engineer, why they might have Mr Marchant. They did not appear even yet fully aware of the advantages _or otherwise of the work, and were acting too hastily in trying to push through in one evening a resolution involving so many points of difference. If convinced of the real importance of the work — even if not immediately remunerative— he would be prepared to make some sacrifice to the extent of payment in land, although he did not think it wise to insert a phrase that committed them to an expenditure of 60,000 acres, (No, from the Provincial Treasurer.) Will that gentleman explain? The Provincial Treasurer : " by-and-by.") It was inexplicable, unless he thought that he could find in this intelligent community a contractor who would offer to do the work for 55,000 acres, when 60,000 were voted. There was an offer to complete the Bluff line for 20,000 acrse, when the Council, with infinite generosity, voted 25,000 acres. That offer was immediately withdrawn, and the work refused for less than 25,000 acres.' His respect for the intelligence of that contractor was not diminished (laughter) but the fact convinced him that if they named 60,000 acres they would hot get the work done for less. Mr Patterson's estimate was 50,000 acres, why more should be asked for he did not know unless they wished, as before, to be liberal to contractors (Mr Armstrong : or runholders.) He should be glad to have 10,000 acres distributed among them, but should wish the thing done in a regular way. (Laughter.) He was not pledged to support the amendment, and would be glad to vote for a proposition affirming the principle. Another thingthey ouo-ht to be made aware of before coming to a decision was whether the Bluff line was paying, as statements were afloat that it was°losing by £3,000 per annum a large sum when compared with the revenue of the Province. If he were convinced another eighteen miles would make the Bluff line pay, he should be inconsistent if averse to the allocation of land. He would leave it to the G-overn-ment to so amend the resolution as not to be committed to the exact mode of completion or payment, or he should vote against it. The Provincial Treasurer spoke in support of the resolution, believing it correct in the shape which had been approved of by the public at large, and several gentlemen in the Council quite competent to form an opinion. The amendment was too general, and did not; specify the acreage. It appeared to him that the opponents pf the resolutions misconstrued the 36th clause, sub-section 2 which he took to mean " the personshall get a grant of land." This he took to refer to the individuals who executed the work. The arguments . of the hon. member for Oreti showed a want of confidence in the G-overnment, which had determined to stand or fall by the resolution, which gave no power to the local Government, as thei work was to be under General G-overnment supervision. Virtually, the latter _ would execute the work, but the Province, in order to have some say in the matter, would have an engineer as well. He denied that they were acting hastily on the subject, which had been for months before the public. As to the guage, there was every reason for adopting that of the Bluff line. ; The same rolling stock would do, and the present staff of employes would be sufficient. The hon. member for Oreti, in charging them with obstructing the action left to the late Execotive, forgot to mention that the latter set themselves up as judges of the capacity of an engineer, and would insist on giving charge of the woyka to a

young man, who, however clever he might be, his late employer could not be expected, from his youth, to be fitted to take charge. It would be likeputting, a sick man under a medical attendant without a diploma, and he (the Provincial Treasurer) considered the Superintendent perfectly justified in opposing — in that was the struggled He did not see that voting 60,000 acres involved its expenditure, as the works were to be advertised, and it was probable that new offers would jbe received from adjacent colonies where the payment in land was now understood. Dr Hodgkinson quite approved of the resolution and was surprised at the inconsistency of those members avowedly favorable to railways in opposing it. There would be the supervision of a General G-overnment engineer, and they had the promise of a Railway Ordinance! Nothing could be done without reference to the Council. Mr Pearson, after the exhaustive treatment the subject had received, would confine himself to a few replies to some lof the objections made. That of want of controlling power would, he thought, be met by coupling motion No 3 with the resolution. Anything '; they might recommend would be qiiito useless unless the land were allocated, and if they did not do so quickly, the opportunity would be lost. If the reserve were not made soon, it was plain they would fall back on the old style of correspondence without any result. Besides, contractors would not come over from other colonies to tender, unless the. land were allocated. The Royal Commission on guages would not, he thought, interfere with their little bit of railway. The mistakes that had occurred did not necessitate others — because £153,000 had been spent on common roads, and but very few miles made, was that an argument against making roads at all? It was in human nature to profit by experience — if a first mistake were to be fatal, few would get on in the world. He agreed with the hon member for Oreti that it would have been better to leave the bargain to be made with the contractors by the Government, instead of fixing a sum ; but after all, if there was competition, some might offer to do the work for less. Any balance there might be could be applied to properly repairing the Bluff line. In Victoria it was proved that, with the extension of the railway system, its remunerative character was increased. The Speaker intimated a wish that the House should go into Committee. Mr Cuthbertson moved accordingly. Mr Butler spoke in support of the motion. Messrs Armstrong, Monckton, and Hodgkinson having spoken in opposition, the question was put, and, at last, the numbers being, ayes 7; noes 12. Mr Calder spoke at length in reply to the objections urged by the hon mem T ber for Oreti, and charged the latter with inconsistency. ■ ' ' . [Space will not permit us to report in detail this portion of the proceedings. Considerable warmth was shown by_ Mr Cuthbertson in rebutting the assertions of the hon member for Invereargill.] The Oreti Railway resolutions were ultimately put and carried without a division, with the condition that no arrangement be made with contractors without the sanction of the Council. !