PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Southland Times, Issue 678, 3 June 1867, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

I THURSDAY, MAT 30, 1867. i The Council met at 7 o'clock this evening. The following members were present : — The Speaker, the* Proyincial Secretary, Messrs-Armstrong, Nurse, Clerke, Wood, Cowan, Clark, Boyd, Eoss, Lumsden, Swale, Johnston, Toshac^ Crerar, Cuthbertson, Howell, and Dra Hodgkinson and Menzies. After prayers, the minutes of the, previous meeting were read and confirmed. Notices op Motion. Mr Ross gave netice that at next 'sitting he would move that the petition of John Taylor Pope be taken into consideration by the committee now enquiring into the cost of working of the Bluff Harbor and Invercargill Railway. COST OP STJEVEYS. Mr Cowan said it would.be in the recollection of hon. members that a resolu- ! tion was passed last session regarding the system of survey in force in this province at present. It created a monopoly, and the. prices charged were exhorbitant. The resolution recommended that a a change should take place. He would the Government what action, if any, had had been taken to give effect to the resold tion regarding the system of survey in this province, passed at last session. The Pbovincial Seceetaet would lay on the table letters from the Chief Surveyor and Commissioner of Crown Lands in answer to the question, and he would move that the correspondence be read. After the letters had been read, there was nothing further said on this matter. BELATrVE COST OP TEAM, EAIL, AKD COMMO!*" EOAD. Mr Cleeke asked the Government for an estimate of the relative «ost of completing the Oreti Railway with iron rails; ditto for a horse-tramway ; and for making the present road to Winton in a permanent manner. He would not have had to ask the Government that question if they had not been kept in a state of darkness on the subject. They had neither volunteered to give any informa- , tion with regard to the cost of making a common road, nor of the^cost of a tramway. Erom information he had received, he understood that a number of the settlers; were in favor of a road, and a good many desired a tramway. The Pbovincial Secbetaby was not aware how the Government was keeping hon. members in the dark, seeing, that these matters were not before the Council. Erom the correspondence that had taken place between the General and Provincial Governments, it would be observed that they were not asked to have roads, but to have a railway. He would lay on the table a statement with regard to the relative cost of a road and a tramway. The Engineer's report as to the finishing -of the Oreti line with iron j rails had been on the table for the last six months, Mr Clabk moved, seconded by Mr Cowan, that the statements be read. Read accordingly. NEW BILLS. The Pbovincial Seceetaet asked for and obtained leave to bring in the following BiJLs, and their first reading was made an order of the day for next sitting : — " The Appropriation Ordinance, No. 2, 1867;" "The Provincial Liabilities Confirmation Ordinance, No. 2, 1867;" ■ and " The Eastern Railway Ordinance, J£67." Mr Aemsteong obtained leave to bring in a Bill intituled " The Railway Commission Ordinance, 1867," and its first reading was made an order of the day for the next sitting. ADJOTJENED DEBATE ON THE EAILWAY QUESTION. * Mr Lumsden resumed the adjourned debate on the Railway question. He said he was not prepared to put the Government in possession of such power as the resolution proposed until some tangible principle was laid before the Council. It was necessary that the Council should have some control over suck gigantic works as were now proposed. He would still suggest further delay. The Govern** ment had shown a manifest impatience in forcing that question. It was an old saying, "the more x hurry the worse speed." The delay that had already taken place had been beneficial in enabling them to devise the best means of dealing with that question. They had such little experience of past years that, inthe words of y the old adage, "burnt bairns dread the fire." Some people were very sanguine when looking at the Railway, question — more sangdine than he (Mr L.) was disposed to feel. The promises of the autocrat of the North were not so substantial as he would desire. Mr Lumsden then referred to the manner in which Mr Stafford had treated the Auckland people with regard to the promised loan of ,£250,000, and concluded by saying it was quite possible that by the time the next Assembly met, something might upset the scheme. He would oppose the motion as it itood at present.

Mr Abmstbong, with the leave of thd House, would withdraw the motion standing in his name, in order that another might be brought forward slightly modified * . . . Considerable discussion ensued on the . proposed withdrawal, but it was ultimately agreed to. The Provincial Secretary likewise obtained leave to withdraw the postponed motion on the formation of an Eastern railway. SHEEP AMENDMENT OEDINANCE. Mr Nuese asked for and obtained leave to bring in a Bill intituled " The Sheep Ordinance, 1866, Amendment Ordinance, 1867," and the first reading was made an order of the day for next sitting. THE BAILWAY QUESTION. The Provincial Secretary moved the suspension of standing order 27, to enable him to bring forward a motion without notice. He would read the resolution he intended to propose. " That this Council deeming it expedient that the unfinished public works known as the Oreti Railway on which a very large sum pf money has been already expended, should be completed to Winton as an iron line similar to the Bluff Harbor and luvercargill Railway; and being convinced of the great benefits that would be conferred directly or indirectly on the Province by the formation of a railway from thef capital to the eastern boundary thereof, recommends His Excellency the Governor in terms of sub section 2, clause 36 of the Waste Lands Act, 1865, to make grants of land for these works as follows:— viz., 60,000 acres for payment of, or compensation for the first named work, and 150,000 in payment or compensation of works last mentioned, these works to be constructed under the supervision of a Board, for the appointment of which the Government is requested to have a Bill prepared and presented to this Council.'*' Seconded by Mr Abmstbong, and passed ne?n con. The Provincial Secretary would now move that the motion as read be The Speakeb (who held the resolution in his hand) — I think it is highly desirable that 'such a motion* should be printed before it is taken into consideration. The Provincial Secretary— The motion is now before the House, and should be read by the Clerk of Council. The resolution having been handed to the Clerk, it was again read by that gentleman. The Provincial Secretary thought the Council would agree with him in saying that the motion then before the House was one of a great importance as ever the Provincial Council had to deal with. (Hear, hear.) It was well known that the climate and soil of Southland were highly esteemed both in the home country and in the Australian Colonies ; but an impression had got abroad that they were financially in a shaky condition. People at a distance can't make it out. They don't investigate for themselves ; but there 'is no doubt that impression exists. Whenever a work of the magnitude now proposed was started — when it was known that they had not only finished the works that were stopped, but were constructing other works, — in fact, constructing a railway system, confidence would at once return. It was unnecessary for him to urge the benefit of railways. It was well known that they created t a traffic for themselves." They had a line of railway more than half completed, for the work on Which, more than £100,000 had been expended. By the further expenditure of one-half that amount, they would have a line of railway from the Bluff to Winton. Some hon. members who opposed the proposition, agreed in favor of tramways. -They had not the slightest chance of getting a tramway. They must take a railway or have nothing. They had a remarkably fair offer from the General Government. They would allow us to take part of our estate and convert it into a property of another description. If hon. mempers. refused that offer they would not be acting according to the wishes of their constituents, and they ought nol to promote their individual interests in that Council. The second proposition was to form a line to "flic Eastern boundary of the province. It would act as a feeder to the line already made. That line waß more than paying working expenses ; but that did not satisfy them. -> They expected to have a revenue for making roads and other necessary expenses if the line now proposed were ,on*ce started. Some might say that an Eastern line would not pay working expenses. They were all aware of the extensive operations carried on by the Companies in that district. The trade to them alone would pay a railway. Besides, there were a large number of settlers in the district through which it was proposed to take the line. The difference between the cost of making a road and a railway was not so great as one would imagine. He had got a report from the Road Engineer whicnhe would read. (Reportread.) If metal had to be carted on the road, it was cut up\s fast as they could make it. He would therefore say, make railroads

WF.

first and roads afterwards. It was proposed to give an acre of land for every pound sterling of the cost of the work. It was a work which would have to be gone on with at some time, and the sooner the better. If they had the land fund in their possession, it was the first thins: they ought to do. In the district through which it was proposed to carry the line there was a large amount of land purchased, amounting to 180,000. acres. Purchasers under the old land regulations were led to believe that nearly all the purchase money would be expended in making roads. If they were led to believe that, aud were disappointed, here was 'money to make a railroad. -They were only asking for 150,000 acres. Connected with those large works there would be a great circulation of money. ("Hear, hear," from Mr Cuthbertson.) Everything will be advanced in price. " Yes, sir, even the price of mutton will be advanced." (Laughter.) Those districts which would derive no immediate advantage from the making of the railways as proposed would, in future sessions, be able to say to members from the Northern and Eastern districts, " You have a railway, and we demand the surplus revenue for our roads." Hon. members who represented their constituents would vote for the resolution; and for that consideration he claimed the votes of the hon. members for Aparirna and Oteramika. Every one conversant^with political events would be aware that the course now pursued tended to the obliteration of the provinces. In such a ease the extremities of the colony would but feebly feel the pulsation of the heart. If these railways were in operation they should have a heart of their own, and not remain lifeless. Everything would be changed. Trade would be revived. Fresh faces would be appearing in their midst, and generally, the province would receive such an impetus as would be felt for many years to come. He would leave the resolution in the hands of hon. members, and trusted it would receive their support. Mr Armstrong, seconded the motion. He had pointed out, two evenings ago, the necessity of completing the Northern works ; andalthough he had been twitted by the amiable and facetious member for Longwood with making a five minutes' speech, he believed the arguments then brought forward were pointed. The Eastern railway was not a new idea. It had been in contemplation for twelve months. Two sessions ago it was spoken of. He was then opposed to it, because it was proposed to give the Company a monopoly. It was a question of railways or nothing. The General Government feel confident that by allowing the expenditure of that money, they were carrying on a colonial work. It was simply taking money out of one pocket and putting it into another. A good deal had been said' on that and the previous evening about Government hurrying the matter through. The Government could not possibly supply the Council with any more information than they had done. It had been procured at the shortest notice. He (Mr A.) would give the motion his hearty support, and he hoped every hon. member would do the' same. 1 The Provincial Secretary laid on the table a report by Mr Dundas, which was read. Mr Cuthbertson felt it to be a duty to remonstrate against hurrying this matter, He believed that the House would now be in a better position to form an opinion on the merit of the scheme. It had not yet been proved to liim that it was feasible under present circumstances. He did not consider that tlie time liad yet arrived for carrying out the proposition. ' They had been told by the Provincial Secretary that new faces would appear, new industries would spring up in their midst. They might also see some 'old. faces and some old industries, in the shape of some valuable patent which had never been made feiown to the public until the other day in Dunedin ; he had been told on good authority that it would take double the amount asked to complete the railways. They should pause, then, before they commenced to build another tower which they might not be able to finish. They needn't think the General Government .wanted to increase their resources. Their policy had been to fetter the Proyinces, and overwhelm them entirely. The Provincial Secretary had spoken' of members representing the wishes of their constituents. He (Mr C.) would tell that gentleman what the people of Longwood said about the matter. They said it was a scheme brought forward for the benefit of the town of Invereargill, and they wanted to have nothing to do with it. The hon gentleman went into the question at some length, and urged that the information laid before them was crude and illconsidered, and stated that he would oppose the, resolution. Mr To shack suggested that the most judicious eoursetoadoptwouldbetoaskthe General Government to keep the matter abeyance for six months longer, contending that the present movement had taken the country by surprise, and that the Government had taken an injudicious t course in pressing the znatter to a d©-

cision. Tbey wanted information on j two -points; the first was whether the | Northern line could not be finished for a lease in the same way, as a bridge was being erected over the New River ; and secondly, as the price of land was now in a manner fixed, they wanted to know how that would affect* the sales of land, and consequent redaction of our debt. He would oppose the resol ution. Mr Ltjjisdek" said that before they could pass the motion before the House they wanted a definite plan of the proposed route for the Eastern Railway. He felt justified in supporting the delay which had already taken place, aa he was always learning, even in the report read that night from Mr Dundas. He considered that the two Bills should be brought before the Honse, and passed or rejected, as the Council thought- fit. Mr Lunisden referred to the last clause in Mr Dundas's report, in which a route across the Waikivi plain was proposed, and stated that that was directly opposed to the wishes of a majority of the inhabitants of the Province. Tf they passed that resolution, the Superintendent could take advantage of any route he pleased. Mr "Wood said as the preparations were not in s^ forward a state as was deemed by many members, he would move as an amendment — " That this debate be now adjourned, in order to give the Government time to bring forward the. bills having reference to the railways. now under discussion. Mr Clerke seconded the amendment. He confessed that he felt alarmed when he heard the last clause in Mr Dundas'B report. It was evidently intended that the 'Eastern line should join the Northern one in the Waikivi. It was therefore necessary that they should have some definite knowledge as to the course of that line. A very lengthy discussion ensued on the amendment. After a great deal of forbearance, the Speaker expressed himself as "really tired of the subject?" Dr Menzies reviewed the whole question. He agreed that we were not so badly off that .we should submit to the dictatorial treatment of the General Government. Our condition was much better than that of many of. the other Provinces, and while they enjoyed the benefit of managing their own affairs, that privilege was denied to us. He hoped the General Government would take advantage of the low rate of interest in the home money market, and float a Colonial loan of six millions for the purpose of consolidating the .debts of the various Provinces ; charging the ordinary revenue of each at the rate of 6' per cent interest. The hon gentleman concluded a very exhaustive speech (which want of space compels us to leave over) by opposing the resolution on the ground of insufficient information, and that the Province was being harshly dealt with by the General Government. Mr Armstrong said, as- it seemed to be the opinion of several members of that House that the Government had not brought proper measures before- 'the House; if the Council decided that they had taken an improper course, they were quite willing to take the usual steps on such an occasion. (Hear, hear, from Mr Blacklock.) The Government distinctly stated that they could take no further action for having plana prepared. If the Council expected to. be wiser when the Bill were brought in, they would be disappointed, as there was no time tohave the lina surveyed or plans prepared. The amendment having been put, it was declared carried. The resolution wa3 was therefore lost. ■ " The Speaker read a letter from the Hon Dr Menzies, resigning his seat on the Education Board. Several notices of motion were then given, and the House adjourned at 11 p.m. till 7 o'clock next evening. N [The reports referred to in this day's proceedings will appear in a future issue.] ■ • * FRIDAY, 31st MAY. ! The Speaker took the chair at 7 p.m. Present, all the members of Council. The Provincial Secretary presented a petition from Mr W, Eraser, of the Sawmills, praying, on the groundthat an export trade in timber which he had established, would be otherwise destroyed — for the retention of the New River Pilot service. MrCtrTHBERTSON called attention to the fact that the minutes of previous meeting had not been confirmed. The minutes were read and confirmed. Mr Ross moved — "'.That the consideration of John Taylor Pope's petition be remitted to the Bluff Harbor and Invercargill Railway Committee now sitting." Carried. Mr Boyd asked the Provincial Treasurer " whether the sum of Ll5O voted by the. Council at its last session for the Main Road between Wallacetown and Riverton, has been expended on that road ;" and received a reply in the negative — that the Government thought the residents in that district had not kept faith in the matter of some previous arrangement whereby 'they taaderfcooi to grave! <

the road after it was formed by the Government.

I On the motion of Mr Lumsden, Mr l John Ross was elected a member of the Education Board (in accordance with Clause 3 of " Education Ordinance, 1877.") in the room of Dr Menzies, resigned. The Proyincue Treasurer moved the first reading of the **' Appropriation Ordinance No 2,' ; -1867 " the " Provincial Liabilities Confirmation Ordinance No 2, 1877" and the "Eastern Bailway Ordinance, 1887" These were made an-* order of the day for second reading, at the next evening Sitting. Mr, Armstrong then moved the first reading of the "Railway Commission Ordinance, 1867." Mr. Cuthbertson the chairman of the select* committee appointed to enquire into and leport on the correspondence between His Honor and the Colonial Secretary, with reference to the salaries of certain officials in the department of Waste Lands, laid on the table a report, and moved that it be'read ; and gave notice to move that its consideration be made an order of the day for the next evening sitting. Report read. Mr. Wood without wishing to quarrel with the work of the committee, regretted that it shonld be thrown in as a kind of boombshell at that time. ADJOUTNED DEBATE ON* THE BAILWAY RESOLUTIONS. Mr. Wood hoped the Council would consider the question on its merits, without reference to party feeling, and repeated the assertion that ample checks would be provided to secure fair dealing with the land to be appropriated. He spoke of the unanimous feeling of the public in favor of railways, and reminded certain hon. members, how, on a stated occasion at Wellington, they had joined with him in endeavouring to obtain such a concession from Mr. Stafford, as that now granted. (Dr. Menzies explained that he did not then advocate the proposition of the Company.) Mr Wood went on to show that only a small section of the population — the sqdiatters — was against the proposition ; but that although they would be deprived of 200,000 acres of land, for which they were only paying 2d. per acre rental, they would get ample compensation in proportion to the time their leases had to run. father than the resolutions should not pass, he would be willing to see the present Executive ousted, or do anything —short of putting gun-powder under the Council Hall, and blowing them up altogether. (Laughter.) Dr Hodgkinson spoke in favor of the resolutions ; although he had at one time thought that the best mode of disposing of the Waste Lands was in the promotion of Immigration, he considered the" circumstances of the Province left no option but to take the advantage offered. The Provincial Treasurer now moved that the words " starting from a point south of the Invercargill Bailway Station, and proceeding up the valley of the Puni Creek," be inserted in the resolution. After discussion, leave was granted; and the debate re-opened, the Speaker ruling that the alteration was more than a formal one. Mr Toshack admitted the value of railways where a large population existed, but questioned their suitability to the circumstances of this' province: He, moreover, did not think the works proposed could be done for the money, and thought they would induce only a temporary prosperity. Mr Johnson believed the railway was the best practicable way of opening up the Province, and furthering the efforts at improvement of the settlers of the district. He advanced figures to show that the present traffic would pay considerably more than the working'expenses of the railway. Mr Holmes in an elaborate speech, condemned the proposals as unbusinesslike and vague." He did not think a substantial railway could be constructed for the money, and concluded by proposing- an amendment recommending the allocation of 100,000 acres of land for the completion of the Oreti Railway, and the formation of a tramway to the Mataura. Mr Clarke seconded the amendment, pro forma. Messrs Wood, Johnston, Armstrong, Blacklock, and Lumsden _ having spoken against the amendment, it was put and negatived without a division. The Provincial Treasures at this, stage intimated to the House the intention of the Executive to resign so soon as the resolutions were passed. Mr Clerke alluding to the difficulty of forming an Executive, regretted the position the Council was placed my. If the Executive resigned, they would simply be called on to take office again;- "Under these circumstances he saw no alternative but to propose the following amendment on the resolutions—" That this Council, while fully alive to the great advantages that may be secured to the Province by the carrying oui oi &© proposition bud*

mitted by the General Government for completing tlie Northern Railway and constructing a railway to the Mataura, consider it advisable that before proceeding with the works a preliminary survey and approximate estimate as to cost be. made and submitted to the Council, and, in the meantime, would request the General Government to reserve the land with the view of executing the works on ! the plan proposed by Dr Knight. The hon member then indicated the course he with others deemed it advisable to adopt, viz. : — To recommend a dissolution of the Council, in order to give the electors the opportunity of having their views fully represented. Mr Lttmsden seconded the amendment. He was as. much in favor of the railway as any one, but he did not see that the delay would be fatal to the plan. After a somewhat animated debate, the House divided on. the amendment, with the following result :— Ayes, 13 — Messrs Cowan, Clark, Cuthbertson, Holmes, Lumsden, Menzies, Boyd, Wood, Swale, Boss, Clerke, Ho well, Toshack., Noes, 6 — Messrs Armstrong, Crerar, Nurse, Blacklock, Hodgkinson, and Johnston. The Pbovtncial Secbetaby then moved an adjournment to the next day at II a.m., in order that — accepting the adverse vote as one of want of confidence — the Executive might tender their resignations to His Honor. . ♦ ' SATUEDAY^ JUNE 1, 1867. The Speakeb took the chair at halfpast 11 o'clock this morning. Present : — The Provincial Secretary (J. Blacklock, Esq.), Messrs Armstrong, Boyd, Crerar, Cuthbertson, Clerke, Clark, Holmes, Howell, Hodgkinson, Johnston, Lumsden, Menzies, Nurse, Eoss, Swale, and "Wood. After prayers, the minutes of the previous sitting were read and confirmed. The Pbovincial Seobetabt announced that the Executive had tendered their resignations, and that His Honor the Superintendent had accepted the same. They recommended His Honor to send for the mover of the amendment, Mr Clerke. They were quite prepared to go on with the business on the order paper if that was desired. After Mr Armstrong and Mr Cuthbertson had made some remarks, Dr Menzies suggested that the ordinary course under the circumstances, was, for the gentleman who had been sent for to explain to the Council what his intentions were. They could not go on with the business when the Government had tendered their resignation. Mr Clerke stated that he trusted to be in a position to go on with the business before the house in the evening. He would give notice that he would then propose a resolution to the following effect : — " That a respectful address be presented to His Honor the Superintendent, requesting him to recommend to His Excellency the Governor* to dissolve the Council as early as possible." Some discussion took place as to the advisability of meeting that evening, but it was ultimately agreed to. The Council then adjourned.