MR BELL AT THE THEATRE ROYAL.

Southland Times, Issue 660, 22 April 1867, Page 2

MR BELL AT THE THEATRE ROYAL.

On the invitation of Mr F. Dillon Bell, a meeting of the Mataura District Electors, and the general public, took place in the Theatre Eoyal, on Tuesday evening, the 10th inst. Dr Menzies having been called to the chair, briefly introduced Mr Bell, who was received with applause, and said he had in the first place to thank the gentlemen present, for the kindly way in which he had just been received, a reception which, he felt had been given him by his Southland friends on more than one occasion, and for ■ which, he would always feel extremely grateful. He regretted that he had not been able to meet them at an earlier time, and this for many reasons. •He had thought it would be very desirable, immediately after the session had terminated, that he should have come down and given them some earlier account of the proceedings at that session. However, they were all, in their ways, busy men, and he lately happened to be engaged in transactions which occupied a great deal of his time, and compelled him to make careful division of the little leisure left him. He was prevented coming at the time he had contemplated — sometime before Christmas last. Circumstances had also happened to make his visit a little later now than it would otherwise have been. He had made some unsuccessful attempts, had been pitched out of a coach, and when he had tried the sea, got wrecked, (laughter.) He was now with them,- however, and with their good will, would address to them some few observations upon political matters, which had engaged most of the public attention, and he hoped they w6uld consider it " better late than never." (Hear hear.) lie would first allude to a circumstance which gave him somewhat of a surprise. On landing at the Bluff the previous day, he found that a gentleman, an elector, and he hoped an elector of his (Ma« taura) District, had said that it would be very convenient, if during the time Mr Bell was with the electors, he were to give some explanation of the course he had taken in the Assembly, for there was no fact on record that he had carried out any of the promises he had made at his last meeting. He hoped that his friend who signed that letter was present, and would do him the favor in the course of the evening, to state the points iv which he : had in anyway broken his pledge. (Hear hear.) He invited, him to do that, because it was of the. utmost importance in New Zealand, that the character of public men should not be maligned without just cause; and, if on the other hand, it should be found that any public man had so. far forgotten the duty he owed to himself and his constituency, as to neglect or fail in the performance of those engagements which he had entered into at the time he sought their suffrages, it would only be right that that man should meet with the condemnation which he deserved. (CheersJ But he had had the curiosity, in reading that letter, to do a thirig which he very seldom did, and which he was sure those in the habit of speaking as often as he did, would feel a< he did, a disinclination to do, namely, to read one of their old speeches. He could assure them it was bad enough to have to make such a number of speeches as lie had, without having to read them again. (Laughter.) After reading the speech he was satisfied in his own mind that the charge brought against him was 'really without foundation. However theie might be circumstances which might have led the gentleman to consider that he (Mr Bell), had fajled jn his duty to his constituents ; if. so, nothing Mould afford him greater gratification than the opportunity of giving any explanation which it might be in his power to give, and should the charge not be established, that the writer of the letter should have the courage and generosity to withdraw the charge. (Hear hear.) When he looked to the statements he had made en his previous visit, and reviewed the results of the session of the Assembly, which took place almost immediately afterwards, he felt in his. conscience that there was no efl'ort which he had left unused for-'she purpose of promoting the int.rest and welfare of the ejectors who had honored him in m.aking him their representative. He had done all in his ppwer, but he knew that in the iaee of great diijieultjes, and supported by the kindly feeling and support pf the gentlemen who rep» eaeated other districts of Southland, he had been unable to do as much as he had hoped for the promotion of those things which he had engaged to devote his attention to. He would endeavor to illustrate this in as few words and in as homely a way as he possibly could. It would be remembered that at the time last year when he was seeking to be re-elected, the grout question was whether any steps should be taken to plnce the alTair3 of teouthiauii in their relation to the Colonial Government on a better footing than had been placed by the 'Act passed in the previous session. The question was under consideration then jvhcj.Ji.er jf would be possible to obtain any alteration of jtlis .Clause hi "The Southland Debt Act," which gave i.o the General Government power to alter the price at which land Bhould be eolu. And also whether any steps could be taken hy the Colonial Government to undertake to rcahe go d those liabilities "whi' h • tUe I'r.gvjnee \jw u»4ov to the Batiks who had j

lent money to it. In both of these case* he said he would use every endeavor to get matters put on a better footing. It could not. be said of the General Government that they refused to give attention to those points. Wherever an estate is mortgaged for any large sum, il ia necessary that the mortgagee should hold in his power the right to sell and to realise in case there should come to be any pressure that would oblige him to produce tho money. In ordinary busiuess transactions we should never object to the mortgagee requiring tho power to deal with the estate m case that the interest was not duly paid. He remembered pointing out to the electors that as regarded the representatives fit other settlements in- New Zealand', it was riot to be '•. expected that they would undertake the whole liability which there was in connexion with Southland's debts,- unless they were placed in a position to prevent the Provinces which they represented from being subjected to pecuniary loss. At the Bame time ha had said that although that power would necessaiily be retained by the General Assembly, it would not be used to the detriment' of this Province. The opinion then expressed had been he thought amply verified, because although the power is still retained in the General Government, and necssarily so to save the colony from ultiirate pecuniary loss, it has been- found, that no alteration has yet been made. And he would repeat that he did riot believe any alteration would be made that would materially affect the Province. What the Colonial Government did last session was quite different from anything harsh: It bound itself to take up the whole liabilities of ihe Province at a certain time (it these liabilities had not previously been «-xtinguisned) and make them a colonial charge. He could not conceive of .any one present interested in property, and having a good i will to the prosperity of the Province in the future looking upon the undertaking these liabiliI ties by the Colonial Government otherwise than as a generous act. It would be familiar to many present, as to the members of the Assembly, that the other Provinces are. not in the possession of great wealth and money power, so that they could afford to give away a large sum of money. At the present moment many of them were iv a position which, compared to the Province of ! Southland, is a great deal worse than any position the Province of Southland had ever yet been in. In the Province" of Marlborough, although: it did not figure very largely in the debates, and al- ' though no great attention is drawn to it, it was a curious fact that their share of ordinary revenue last year was something less than nothing ! (Laughter.) They received absolutely nothing. Again, in tho Province of Auckland, r containing 50,000 people — where the country- has great natural advantages — blessed with extraordinary fertility, with fine interior water communication, good land, and a eoust line studded with settlements, everything calculated, iv short, to make it prosperous, the Province was in that position, that the Superintendent,- in a message which he addressed to the Provincial Council, declared that' there was no money whatever available for public works, and that the ' interest of their debt, and public liabilities, which they had already entered into and which they _were bound to meet tvere more than enough to swallow up ■ the whole of their share of the ordinary revenue. These were facts which did not strike ..- the attention of men at a distance, and required to be brought occasionally to the remembrance of electors to account for a great many things that took place in the Assembly. The electors could not be surprised if they found that the Representatives of Provinces like Marlborough and Auckland, looked with considerable jealousy to the proposal that they should undertake to be liable, v* respect to their share, for the whole of the debt, which had been already incurred in the Province of Southland. We could not therefore look upon it otherwise than with gratification that the course was ultimately taken which was taken of passing tha act which put an end to auy doubt as to the redemption of the whole liabilities of this Province. On general politics he hardly knew what subjects of interest there were which could justify him in occupying much of the time of the meeting. There was one question however upon which a great deal of misunderstanding had taken place, and upon which it was really desirable, (particularly if it should happen tha^ he should be- charged - with direliction of duty) that - the facts of the case should be more thoroughly understood than they have been in the manner they had already been presented to the electors. He meant the question brought forward at an early part of the session, with respect to the political Separation of the Islands. He thought the meeting would perhaps wish him to dwell upon that point, because the facts as they then occurred were full of instruct! jn, and ought to be weighed with great care by the Electors throughout the the Provinces, with a view to understand the difficulties in the treatment of the - subject whenever it came before the Assembly. He would preface this information with one or two remarks which he thought had made the matter very clear to the Electors at their last meeting. Readmg his speech then made, he failed to perceive how he could make his meaning more clear t)*an in the language which he then used. Early in the session representatives from the southern Provinces had been given to understand that the Auckland party— that phalanx of 15 members, ied by one of the most able and sagacious men in politics in New Zealand — were prepared with a plan to produce . a solution of those difficulties which for so many years had puzzled our polititicians, and had been the causp of dissentions. . which had up till that time arisen. He. need hardly say that the members therefore looked with great curiosity to the proposition to be made by Mr Whitaker, particularly tiose members who had been acquainnted with him in previous years ; who knew his worth as a politician, his -powers among the Auckland people, aud knew that he was a man who whenever he brought forward any scheme at all, had that winch has been so often wanting in political schemes, a clear and definite aim. The general body of the members therefore looked with greatcuriosity to the proposal " which he should make. Ip was with' a feeling of disappointment at least equal to the curiosity that they saw the proposal as placed on the notice paper. Because every one that was at all cognisant with the relations, between the North and Middle Islands saw at once that the proposal contained within itself the seeds of its own disolution, that it carried an impossibility upon the face of it. He proposed that there, should be an entirely separate Government established fo; 4 the North and South Islands. That the province of Auckland should reserve the whole of i s pwn revenue, and that the whole colony in return, fas he said, for, the benefits of the engagement, that fche lan.d fund of the Middle Island was to be held sacred,) should agree that a large subsidy should be given to Auckland, to eiiable it to maintain its independence. None of the other members were prepared for that proposition. Many of them had been wondering how it was that Auckland with failing Customs Revenue, the immediate removal of troops, and general bad trade could legitimately undertake the entire control of its own affahsi They were Hot prepared to hear that while Auckland claimed an entire exemption from tho public burdens . of the colony, it was to be enabled to take that course by a subsidy from the rest of the colony. The amount of this subsidy was not stated up" on the resolution which Mr Whittaker proposed, and it was - not - possible to obtain anything like a definite statement of what the member^ for Auckland would reully require. But in a private i way, and aTfer some considerable difficulty, itwas ascertained that the amount which was required..t o.b e contributed for the support of the Auckland Consiitution, — for . the maintenance Oi the complete -independence of Auckland, -wassomething like £Bu,ooo ii year. That was to say. that the rest of the colony was to make- Auckland ' independent ; by contributing £30,0( ( o a year. The other members di<J not see that-this was a Jhipg from which the rest of the colony would obtain any advantage whatever; but Aucklan would obtain a Municipal Government ireo from .those troubles which hung over Jhc other provinces, and those provinces wero to pay for this, '" Well, before tha m-ttar crcuo to ft disc.ua: ion, the

member* of Assembly declined to entertain tho proposition at all. This quickly came to the ears of the Auckland members. They soon found that it would be rejected. While' the Assembly was not at all unwilling to listen patiently and give favourable consideration to any demands Auckland might fairly claim to put forward, the rest of the provinces would absolutely decline to pay, as the price of that "severance of Auckland from the r-'sfc oi the provinces, &. subsidy of the amount referred to. When this camo to be known, what is commonly called in hunting phraseology " dragging the' red herring.!' . thereupon took place. The Superintendent of Otago, Mr iDick, proposed a series of resolutions,- apparently antagonistic to those of Mr Whittaker, ' and^yet couched Jn language which at^rst sight did not appear tcf be suclTas wouH"be altogether obj ectionable to- the Auckland people. • The theory of these resolutions proposed by Mr Dick, was an extension of provincial powers.- Not a political separation, but an extension of the Provincial powers. The Assembly was equally inclined not to listen to "that. The consequence was, that when the resolution which: had been proposed by Mr Whittaker came to be taken to the vote, it was met' by Mr' Dick's amendment, and Mr Whittaker, contrary to all expectations, which had been .presumed of him as a politician of very high rank, himself voted against the first rosolutibri, arid voted for the amendment. But the end of it was that b-th were thrown out. And so pften aB resolutions of that kind are brought forward, so often are they certain to be throwu'out. ' He (Mr. Bell) said he would presently refer to the question of separation, because it ha.l excited great attention here as well as in other parts of the colony. (Hear hear.) He would show the meeting two reasons why those propositions had already failed, and were certain +o fail in the future. It would bo sufficient ipv his present purpose to say that' the proposition" which had been made by ; both these sections fell to the ground. He would ask them to endeavour to realize what it was' that was proposed by the various sections that take the word " separation," inscribe it on their banmer, and make it their fighting cry ? When last here he (Mr Beli) had told the electors, and if they had been taking notice of tho speeches which ho had made — but they could hardly have done that as the newspapers in Wellington had quarrelled with him and excluded ' what he said from the papers — (laughter) — there was one idea which he had ,had entertained for a long time, and which nright yet be productive of good in the future Government of New Zealand. He had not seen any reason why the Middle Island,' which is not subject to any of those difficulties in the North Island, should not be governed without any Provincial system at all. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) That had been his idea for the past three or four years. When the Separation question was first mooted in the Province of Otago, this was distinctly proposed by those who first started the matter there. At that time he (Mr Bell) had just come down from Auckland and rather wished to avoid public life. It was then proposed that the cumbrous and expensivo system of Provincial Governments should be abolished, and that one Government 'should be established for the Middle Island with ample local Government and the use of the land fund in those districts which contributed it. (Cheer*.) That was the theory to which he had always beeriTavdrableT" (Renewed cheers:) - "But Southland electors must remember that they were not guides of the opinions which existed in other portions of the Middle Island. He might hold views which we might consider enlightened, and which we might also consider would be productive of good, but if those opinions were not shared in by the other inhabitants of the Middle Island, of what use is it that we should hold theni [ ourselves. (Hear.) Now the feeling of at- ' tachrnent to existing institutions in Otago and i Canterbury, so far a3 he could be a judge, had gained ground. Instead of there being any desire in the communities of Otago and Canterbury to see the present institutions done away with, the feeling of attachment was increasing. Even in the Province of Nelson the desire of the [ people is to establish and strengthen the Provin- ! cial system as it already exists. When therefore in the General Assembly any question brought forward is based upon the term Separation, it must not cause surprise if it be found that those who are. the most earnest in objecting to the plan are in the Middle Island, Should the people of Southland think Separation would be a practical benefit, they must not be surprised that the other Provinces which are more powerful in numbers, in wealth, and in independent resources, and at any rate have the command of quite a sufficient number of votes in the Assembly should prevent any alteration in the system which already exists. The choice hitherto has been between the extension of the powers of the central Government and the extension of the powera <f the Provincial Governments. In Auckland they want an independent Provincial Government of their own. They decline, so far as they may decline, any control on the part of the General Government at all, and seek to be absosolutely independent. Canterbury does not desire that. Mr Moorehouse (Superintendent of Canterbury) in a remarkable speech, said that he was not at all desirous to see the powers of the Provincial Governments extended to the detriment of the General Government. But in Otago the desire for the extension of the Provincial power has been very largo and wiJely spread, and he (Mr Bell) thought that desire was spreading every day. For his own part, seeing the difficulties which lay in the way of carryiqg out . the plan, that he thought would be the most pro- ' ductive of good to the settlement of the Muldle Island, lie was in favor of letting tilings continue as they were for a considerable time to come. He did not want to see the powers of the Provincial Government extended in a way to fetter the action of the General Government, because he believed in the independent action of members brought together from the various parts of the colony, and that therefore in this way there was the greatest possible chance of securing impartiality at their hands. He believed that in the General Assembly lay the salvation of the colony and the true means of doing justice to the w}wjl c of the interests concerned. He did not want to see the action of ths General Assembly paralysed and limited as in some settler < ment6 ifc is desired it should be. The large population in Canterbury and Otago which are contented with the state of things as they are, and are desirous to maintain the provincial system as at present, and carry out that mission of provincial institutions which was meant to be achieved, namely the colonisation of the different Provinces by means of local self-governments. He (Mr Beli) was willing to extend to the various settle- ; merits tjie right to exercise their own judgment — J to see tliem carrying out the form of Government, which they consider \voujd mosp advance their own interest. THere wag no reason why we should fetter or endeavor to force upon the communities of other parts of New Zealand things distasteful to them. With respect to the absorption of the smaller provinces no doubt there is a considerable feeling on the part of some of the larger provinces to absorb the smaller. This is especially the caso in regard to Taranaki. The opinion of a large seciion of the Assembly is that Taranaki is incapable of self-government — of meeting its own difficulties, an.l fulfilling the duties which it was the intention of the Constitution Act it should fulfil But whenever it is proposed to force Taranaki against the will oi its representatives, and the peopie that constitute that settlement, whenever that is proposed ifc Jails to the ground, because there 'has always been this general fcoibjg — we. will not swamp the enull provinces at the will of the larger. (Applause.) Oh the other hand the people in Southland are strictly interested in the maintenance of the power ofi the smaller provinces. Wlri:e the Southland peopie ou^ht to take ihei- proper share in politics und uxt'ttristt their influence mid power, they, must iakc care that they do not throw themselves, into sonic political section, the effect of which wouid be to control the will of other provinces besides their own. Each province, should endeavor to allow the others to work out their own mission. Apply this visc^ to the question o{ Separation, anu it would fee s«!u thftt U it should happen tiiat the

Prorinees of Canterbury, Nelson, and Marl-J borough should remain in future : as' they, hitherto have been, antagonistic, the policy just referred to is the .worst policy which a small province like Southland " could pursue. It was obviously a bad- policy for Southland to endeavor to' force' ujkhv tho3e other Provinces a course which according to their view is injurious to them. When-tee t ilk of Separation it is a political Separation between tho North and Middle Islands. But in order to gain this you must have the population of the North and Middle Islands willing to have the Separation take place. At any rate if you are disposed to say it is not neces-^ sary to have the consent of the population of the North Island, that consent you have never yet got and'l'donot see thatthereis any prospect of its being given. He (Mr Bell) had been particularly struck with the candidature of Mr Reeves, who had succeeded Mr Crosby Ward, a man wiiose loss was very greviously felt in the Assembly. Mr Ward was an entire Separatibnist, and made the best exposition of the principles of Separation, *' which 'he (Mr Bell) had ever heard. Mr Reeves, the candidate, was apolitical ally — had been his partner, and yet after feeling his way in the. maze, of difficulties which there was before him,. frankly admitted that he did m ot see that there; wa9 any prospect of Separation l being carried out. When therefore he (Mr Bell) heard the doctrine of Separation — political Separ-. ation — preached as often as it was, he was constantly reminded riot merely of the inherent difficulties of the case, which relates to the questions between the two Islands, but -much more of the I difficulties which there has hitherto been of- gefci ting any united feeling between the settlers at the Middle Island; themselves to that object. What is the cause of this? when we cannot refrain. from our- own-^yes and - seeeing-4iie -difficulties which there are we should endeavor to seek a cause for thoso difficulties, and see whether that cause is one which political action maj remove or whether it is inherent id the nature of the .case. He had tried to find that cause, and he knew rit was very unlikely that any one cause should produce so prominent; an effect. There was one reason at any. rate which weighed largely in the consideration of the people who inhabit the Northern Provinces. They^ahnot but see that in the present condition of things political separation between the Northern and Middle Islands means to begin, with " the abandonment 'of the whole of the question relating to native matters to the Government and Province of the North Is'and." That is the thing which all of us are desirous to do. There be "no" serioiis^diffcrence upon thatpbint If it were o.ily practicable to make the people of the North Island see it in the same light. But the Northern people say, it is all the blame of you, Southlanders — your meddling— that have, brought all the difficulties upon us. Innumerable reproaches have been cast upon those who have helped the North Island, as if these helpers were the people who really stood in the way of that which is the wish of the North people themselves. But the people of the North Island did not .agree amongst themselves. They say openly,. "If you mean to have Separation, you must understand that you do not.have it without a settlement of the assets of the .firm. When we made the arrangement with yon in '56, we agreed that you in the Middle Island should> have the whole use of your land fund, and that we should not interfere with it. We are in the position of partners who have agreed that sonie-' of the partners should enjoy the rents of a principal portion of the estate ; that these partners should have the usafruct of the land so. long as we are partners. • Just as in a private firm ail arrangement might be made ' for one partner to receive the whole proceeds of a particular estate so long as the partnership continued." "But (to borrow Mr Fitzhei-bert's language, and in this he expresses the Wellington feeling, but far more the Auckland feeling)-re-lnerubsr, gentlemen, if j>ou break the partnership, you don't run away with the capital. It is tho land that is the source of wealth which there is to the partnership. We have no land except a little bit purchased from the natives. Practically, therefbee, we have got no land fund, and therefore when you come to talk of separation, remember you don't run away with the capital.'' Well he (Mr Bell) would just ask his hearers whether the moment the Joregoing argument is used there is not augend to the assumption that Separation can be had without a struggle. Mr Whittaker, when bringing forward his scheme, said, if you want us to continue to you the use of the land fund, you must gne us a subsidy. Mr Eitzhcrbert immediately turned upon him with the argument I have used. The reply was "no, we told you in 1860, that we did not want these things to be done. ■ There was Dr Featherstone was dead against the Maori War, Mr Williamson was against it." They said "We don't choose to be parties to -it, and protest against it. Now you want to separate without protecting us against the results of these things — against which these men have protested — that is not fair." This is not the only difficulty. If there wa3 only the difficulty of settlements of accounts, there would not be a real difficulty in the way, because if it only lay there, the question of the Middle Island future liability might be adjusted without any serious quarrel. But the difficulty does not lie there, but in the settlement of the North Islands themselves. Mr Bell said he would illustrate this by the relative positions of Hawkes Bay and Auckland, in a "mutter in which the Middle Island is powerless to affect a settlement, yet which is important in any division of the Island^ There "is a portion of the territory of Auckland which lies ' immediately adjacent to the settled part of Hawkes Bay territory, and the native tribes which inhabit that part of the Province of Auckland, are the tribes, and the only tribes, which are dangerous to the peace of the Hawkes Bay people. The natives which are settled within the boundary of the Hawkes Bay territory are not dangerous. They can not only manage themselves, but those tribes possess amongst theni chiefs who owa vast estates, with vast incomes. The estates of one chief yield £1500 a year rent. He has naturally got a desire to maintain the pease and welfare of the European settlement in which he happens to live. But the tribes which are dangerous, are the tribes which live upon the southern portion of the province of Auckland. Now Mr M'Lean, who is the Superintejicleijt of Hawkcs Bay — a man whomhswishedinore members equalledin capacity — says to the General Assembly, "It is all quite right that you should say that we should manage our own native affairs, and I am content to manage them, provided you will give me the government of that part of the "Island in which those tribes live which are dangerous to the peace of the settlement of which I am Superintendent. Will you do that ? " When we say "we want you to manage your own affairs, but it is obviously necessary that we should, to enable you to do it, give you the control of that part of the Province of Auckland, pud bring it into the Province of Hawkes Bay." "^No no,' 1 says Auckland, "we won't consent to that." Well then the members of 'the General Assembly say — "But gentlemen you are perpetually saying you want to manage all your own affairs, is not it notorious that these tribes do not affect v your property in Auckland, and they do affect the peace of Hawkes Bay. Is it not nonsense to talk of handing over -to you tho control of your own native affairs, when you can't manage them, and refuse the management to those that can ?" "We don't care," says Auckland. "We won't lose any part of our territory." " Well," says the superintendent of il&wkes Hay, "you. may pass aJI tho resolutions you please about the* North Islam! managing Us own atfars, buI won't take them," The truth of Mr M 'Lean's argument was proved w thin a month alter the discussion rela'ivc to the placing of ihat portion of' Auckland uner the control of Hawkes Hay. These very tribes came down an;t madi war upoa Hawkes Bay, planted themselves, and said •' lat us take possession bf the country." Mr M'Li-an said "1 cannot haggle about I ' terms with the General Assembly, here is a question of life and dt.ath, J must dislodge those, fellows." So he goes ani gathers .his people, takes the ! people that have conic, lurna thero out, wad • kills about * hßadjQd of %hrn, (Appkuie.) i -■.-■—■.■ ' r !

But he did it in spi.e of the theory that the territory -'vru- / n6t his. Hie did it merely by the force of thV.will of a man who was able; to do it. (Applause.) "Whereupon the Auckland people are excessively pleased — a lot of fellows thrashed -no expense td- them. (Laughter.) Nobody paid^a' farthing but. the- people of Hawkes .Bay/ Now, (continued Mr Bell), "L ask you, will you be so good as to tell me how I am to decide — how I. am t » vote ? Am Ito take the territory from Auckland ? Then the Auckland fifteen would say, "We shall vote against you." The consequence was that when the question came forward it was found impossible to decide, because .the- Assembly won't have the courage to say, " You shall give up this territory." He (Mr Bell) proposed that they should give up that territory. He knew these tribes, their dispositions — and dangerous people they, are. When he was asked, wjhenthe Stafford G-overnment fir stwentout, to move the resolution which turned him out, he saidr'--2fc>r thank you." — He-was-asked at that time to go into office, but declined, as he wished to look after his own private affairs, and, as a repreaentatiyfi,Ao_dolJ)js_bfist _fpr liis .constituents.. Then, to refer to Taranaki, perpetually threatened by the Ngatiruanui natives,' people talked of the way the settlers in the north had gained by the war.;Jb.ut v mth_feh'.e.excepliQli .pf.ajew contractors, the wjirjiad produped ruin and destruction such as would grieve any one who heard him if he had seen it. In TarauaM their fortunes were perfectly roinedj-and to this day the settlers find themselves absolutely incapable of taking control of their native" affairs.. They have' neither the population nor ; the i money by which - they can control those turbulent people, who set them at defiance. It was an easy task, to march into Waikato and subdue the heads of the rebellion there,, but we had never been able to say we have been safe on Tiie~cbiFt^F"the"Ngaturahui. " ' Tavariaki therefore says "We cannot take charge of our (Ma affairs." Must they be made to take them-? Mr MlLean says plainly ."I won't." -Taranaki people say "We can't take charge of our own territory." It is easy to make fine speeches about Separation, but when you see that it is not only a question of the difficulties that exists between the North.and Middle Islands, but also of -the difficulties inherent in the North Island settlements themselves, you cannot expect any representative to : do that which these sensational orators require, when they say wo ought to be made to vote and speak in favor of Reparation. I told you last year, (Mr Bell continued), that it was my earnest desire to withdraw from political life. I have liad my share of work and disap-pointmemy..and-also_my .share of generousjbreatment, but I never will stand in the position to sacrifice my knowledge *of the subject and the views of common sense to any opinion that may be formed by those" who are not responsible for their actions in the General Assembly. You must therefore excuse, me- in a matter like this, which involves questions of intricacy. You must trust to the judgment and good faith of yotir representatives, and believe that in their hands the matter will be' fairly treated, or say at once to them " you are no longer fit to be our representative." For my part I earnestly desire, and ho man can more earnestly than I do, to retain the confidence of those who have treated meso generously as you have, but T cannot pursue any different course in the future than I have: in the past. I cannot pledge myself to go blindfold in favor of some general proposition which seeks merely the accomplishment of some particular idea; and 'evades 'and *will : not fairly recognise^, .those .lifficulties which stare us in the face. In the same way with respect to the struggle which I know to be impending between the Central and . Provincial party. You must continue to place the same confidence in the members .who represent yon. You mast place that confidence in us which will "enable us to be guided by circumstances, as they .arise, without attempting -■■- to force '""those Provinces which are more powerful in wealth and population into a course which is distasteful to ".them. For my. part,. I believe that there is a course which might.be. taken in the settlement of the difficulties of the North Island which would really meet the views of the North Island people themselves, and I will give to you an illustration of the manner in which I would like this to be gone about. The supposed grievance of Auckland is, that their interests are neglected, and that, although they have fifteen yores, they have not a sufficiently large influence in the direction of the policy to be pursued. Last session I pro-posed,--to the satisfaction of the principal members of Auckland, Wellington, and Hawkes Bay, that there should be a legislation founded specially for the Province of Auckland,- upon their request, just as in the Imperial Parliament legislation is specially made for Ireland and Scotland. TJ^e legislation of the Imperial Parliament is first with-respect to the general laws — with respect to those things common to to the whole kingdom ; and second, with respect to that portion for which there" was needed sbecial legislation, which, was not- to -have equal effect in other parts of the kingdom. Nothing would now be easier than ..to make laws which Aucklanders say are required by them, provided that they themselves were actuated by the feelings which they demand-froin the other members of the Assembly, and not by feelings of utter selfishness merely.- In the discussions in the Assembly, he (Mr Bell) had not seen any proposition emanating from Auckland which was not entirely founded upon the supposed injuries ~ which that settlement had raceived at the hands of the colony, whereas the representatives of the other parts never acknowledge that they have inflicted any injury upon Auckland at all. These representatives say " show us' a policy which', is applicable to the interest of your own Province of Auckland, and which is not necessarily applicable to the other parts of the colony, and we will lefc you have it." If you wan{; a Lieutenant-Goycnor, with silver lacs, to occupy the grand house pu the hill, you shall have him, only don't say because you are to have these things you are to deny to tl^e people of Hawkes Bay tuat safety which they require. "It is no use your saying 'we won't consent' to this, tli it, and the other thing being done, when it is demanded that those very things should be done as necessary for your neighbor's security." Well, (said Mr Bell,) you must leave to a great extent, in our liands the treatment of these matters. So far as the interests of Southland are concerned, I have never neglected them, but have done the basfc I possibly could under the circumstances of' difficulty in which Ye were placed (applause). But I cannot see thatany constituency have any right to demand from a representative the sacrifice of liis own convictions, when he has done according to the best of his ability— the best that he could for their interests. (Renewed applause). There was one important matter upon whici he wished to see some opinion from the meeting, in which he would ask for some guidance or statement of the views of the electors, because he said, he believed that we have -come to that poittt Syhen the consiituGncie§u|shq'ul4 s&engtlicn the hands gf their representative? such an expression. Hitherto the fatal policy which has prevemt'd any reibf to the Middle Island, and thrown obstacles in the way of "deciding the financial relations betwetn it and the North, rendering -impracticable anything like a settlement of accounts, has been that up to the present time, we have never been ablo to get *tbe settlements of the Middle Island at all to work together. Session after 6essinn we have seen the Otago and Auckland members united in on allianco which immediately produced a counter alliance between Car;tt?rbury and W«.llinpton v The time of the Assembly was thus frittered away by useless proposisions. Knowing as he (Mr Bell) did th* ditiicultius wlijch there .are", and knowing the great obstacles which' there are to any union or any solution' of them, he would slih say that a solu'ion was possible, that there' should be some agreement come to, between, these various sections, and some end or faruiina* tion put to these obstacles which prevented- the ! representation of the Middle Island meeting to* nether. If therefore, (Mr Bell said) a»y cxpres* *ion could bY made by which you could induce the politicians of Otago to see that their cQui cc ought not to lie in an alliance with Auckia d, it would be npisiWe to tea |oxae cud to fee au%i4«

ties under- which wo labor. I say this, because you cannot conceive the- difficulties- with which your representatives have had to contend with by reason of the great financial difficulties in which this Province has been placed. We have been looked upon (apart from any personal feeling) as representing- a Province going a begging to the General Assembly. We have never been able to hold that power which wo should hold if we were part of a united Wi Idle Island confederacy, in which the i»t ivsts of the Middle Island should have the first placo. We can, if we will only work together, put an end for the future to a renewal of those difficulties and liabilities which hapjiily yre can see the end of now, by the real termination of the native war. The rebellion is now practically crushed, no doubt now, and for some time to come there will be difficulties in various psrtsrtf the island, with murders heie and there, just as there always havebeen between savage and i-ivili/.ed men when the latter v ere niarehing on to /acquisition of territory. These things cannot be avoided, but now that the native war is over, and how that the struggles of the past have been practically terminated, we can see our way if we work unitedly to a settlement of the account -which at the present moment seems growing worse than ever. Ido not expect any • immediate results from the action taken by you this evening. Some attention will, however, be " drawn to the point, and some discussion will take place so as ultimately to produce some effect. In 1863 when turned out of office I vainly tried to get the confiscated lands made of some use to recoup the immense expenditure. I brought before the House of Representatives a aeries of resolutions to the effect that out of the three million acres; of land which had been confiscated there did exist a fund out of which a large portion of the money expended ought to be repaid. I could not get that done, but I gob what was the next thing to it — an engagement that it should be tried. In the course of the discussion which took place upon that question, I pointed out. the injurious comparison that there was. between the manner in which the Government had treated - Auckland and Southland respectively. That the {Jeneral Government had dealt hardly with Southland and its requirements in having demanded the last right of the mortgagee and refused to allow us a great many things which your representatives had tried to.get. I poiuted out that at the very time it was giving away £100,000 to colonise these confiscated lands, and agreeing to guarantee the loan of £250,000 to colonise that portion of the country, the General Government had lavishly handed over to the Province of Auckland the same sum which they had refused to Southland, while Southland had valuable assets, and the Province of Auckland had none. (Hear, hear.) I pressed this with the more earnestness, because a great injustice was done. I felt then, and feel now that when the General Government handed over that large sum of money for the colonisation of these confiscated lands without taking any means of telling them, at the same time it was refusing to the Province of Southland any assistance to the making good those works for which this Province had resources to answer far larger than can be given by any, except, perhaps, Canterbury and Otago, I felt there was great injustice being After the Assembly was over, an attempt was made to sell some of those confiscated lands 1 thought that the regulations were such as fairly would meet the demand. I had great expectations that the result sought, for would, to a certain extent, be fulfilled; but I soon found that doubts had been thi'own upon the title of those lands; and that it was of no use waiting for & perfect title, and getting the money back. That argument had failed, and then the people of Auckland were themselves casting doubts upon the title of the knd, and so discouraging the purchase of this property— and not without reason. I am not desirous of casting any mputation upon neighbours, or wish to say that any sinister motives were at work. So far as Mr Whittaker wa3 concerned, I may say there was none. No man could have acted more straightforwardly. All kinds of doubts were cast upon the sale, and, as a consequence, very little land was sold. When I saw, the other day, the regulations pf the confiscated lauds, I saw that at last the extinguisher had been put upon any hope that this territory would be made the source of any returns to, us. In Taranaki, where the most valuable land is — the richest that there is in the colony ; far richer than anything we have got in the Miidle Island — it was proposed that people should occupy the land, merely keeping it with the provision that, if the' land was sold that any improvements which had been put upon it were to be put up at auction, any in- coming purchaser to pay the value of tfyem. He did not grudge the settlers of Taranaki any result of their labours and toils. But tne land will be kept without us ever seeing a shilling of it. Thk will be carried through, I expect, just like the £100,000 paid to Auckland. We got a fine statement of the money being spent. ' The money was gone, and there was an end of it. There has now arisen, in my judgment, the time when we may fairly say, " The hour is now come when it is the right oF the Middle Island to demand that there should be a settlement of liabilities ; but for that purpose we 'f, must agree to give up jealousy, and see if it is possible for Canterbury, Otago, and Southland to work together in the General Assembly, earnestly to ask the Ofcago members to assist the members for Canterbury and for Southland, instead of allowing themselves to go to the Auckland parjy, which, alliance has always resulted in its being impossible to carry any Middle Island measures at aIL I have preached' this doctrine and for "preaching them 1 have been rejected a seat in the Provincial Council of Otago. I know fheae views are not popular now, but they will be yet. Ido not think I have much more to say in iegatid" to the general questions coining before the ' My belief is that we must not precipitate niafter3 between the two authorities. We have gpt a' certain amount of work to do still in these Prpvinpial Governments. We cannot give up to the General Government the oonduct of -the Government works. They would make a mess of it, just as they have made a mess with the Electric Telegraph. Thej do not make a mess of everything they do, but whenever th<*y come to deal with questions like the Electric Telegraph, a thing you iright suppose would be subject to common rules of management, it is surprising to see what a mess they do make. give an instance, at the of the South Australian, a fellow passenger "ill 'anil telegraphed to Dunedin for beclies. $H.e telegram was not not delivered for 5 hours. I telegraphed to my wife, who I knew would be under the greatest alarm, end the telegram did not reach for 5 hours. I intend to ' make a row ' about it, as the saying is in the House; your municipal matters, public works, &c, therefore cannot be managed by the General Government. If you could only get the assent of the people of New Zea'cnd that you should have the legislative, and administrative funstions maintained absolutely for municipal objects, it wou.ld b'p unnecegsaj-y to. biirden the statute " book wish. tHe^awa which they pass, limiting the legislative authority, and extending the local administrative powers. This would be a benefit. But you must let these alone for a time, and allow the other Provinces to have their way as wi-ll as yourselves, and leaving to your representatives a good deal oi discretionary power. It is my -wish now to be tatechised. (Cheers.) Captain Btjdd said — I will ask ore question. I believe I am the oldtet European inhabitant Upon this island. IVia 37 years since I first landed, and what we wish is not political, but financial separation. Let us ha« Separation from the iNorfcii Island. We are tired panng Ifor them, (f-aughtej* and coufu-ion.) C&nf a* financial separation liofc te made ? Mr Bsi<Ci : Do you mean you can have one CroverriHient and one House of Representative^ ftml one eyetenvo. laws? CatltaiN JBtDD t (after some hesitation anc Amid some laughter) — These are truebins (Laughter.) I say it advisedly, (Laughter.] Une contractor >n:i<io £2 ,0 ' : > in Auc*la»v.l Mftde it. in the Maori- w*r in Waikaio. an ■■ v ts Very hard for us it-ilows (confu.itin; duwn ho«<, X via ttU what it is, (UttgHter.)

The Chaibman : Do you not observe that you disturb the meeting? . - . Captain Bttdd was understood to apologise. Mr Bell said Mr Wood, the member for Invercargill, had just reminded him of a matter <hat had escaped his memory — namely, the question of the petition for an investigation into t!io railway management. It was only justice to say that while he (Mr Bell) presented that petition to which honor the momoer ior invereargiil was entitled, it was only justice to say that lie did his best to press the members to lisfento the proposition. . Several members had said to him, (Mr Bell) "Well, the Provincial Council don't want to have the investigation ior they have not voted the money. We have made ourselves liable for it. It is spilt miik.' ; Wedon't want to go into details." You must not blame Mr Wood, because he did his best. I did not myself consider there was any chance of the Assembly giving any investigation into the. matter. . . Mr REYNOLDS : I wish to learn your opinion with reference to the party known a3 centralists, a party, as I take it to be, who advouaife one central Government in Wellington, fo>,tke whole of K'evr Zealand, the abolition of Proves, and the •establishment of municipalities, thftl is to say, a form of local self-governraenjj, to a greater degree than at present. How would you vote on that question ? Mr Bell : I have been of opinion that the best form of Government would be one. Government for the Middle Islands, with, legislative powers to constitute it into a large l&avince, with large local municipal self-governnaent in the various districts. (Hear hear.) But there is not the most remote chance of obtaining the assent of Canterbury and Otago to tftjaifc view, and nothing can be done without uuani#ite. ■ / ■ j Mr -Reynolds: But lij^%6t Otago and Can- j terbury already pronounced in favor of Separation ? ' '■ " „ "''"'"-"' ■■■"'.; Mr Bbll: What you cannot get is the Province of Canterbury and Otago to surrender. They say we are able to manage our own affairs. The Provinces must work together. It is one great feature in the General Assembly that all the members come up independently from the various Provinces without any previous consent of opinion. ThU is one of the great features of Representative Government, that you cannot get any Province to ibrce any other Pepvrace to do anything which they do not like. 'Take as an instance the annexation of Southland to Otago. Suppose the members of the latter passed an act to a annex Southland ? And mind you that has been proposed by an influential member on the hustings. Mr Reynolds : Assuming that the Provincial system is continued, will you vote for the appropriation of the three-eighths Customs to the Provinces. Mr Bell: That is a most important question. I am very glad you put that question. The maintenance of the £ th Customs is one of tha most essential things that can be thought of' We have got no other means of continuing the small provision which must be made for public works. But there is a thing .looming in the distance, which I am glad this question lias called up, which may make the §■ th Customs a perfect impossibility. East year a statement was presented by the Treasurer to the Assembly. It was found that at that time there was owing to the General Government by the various provinces, £98,500. We saw that the whole question of taxation wa3 subordinate to the alarming condition of the provinces in relation to the General Government. But we made an estimate of the manner in which the provinces would come out this year, and we found that alter making all kinds of allowances it was probable that the total debt which would be found to be due by the Provincial Governmedfcon the Ist July next would be £25u,000. Well all the appivpriation had been passed in the Assembly, and after the money questions had been disposed of, a clause was inserted, (read by Mr Bell) by the Treasurer to the effect that the debt due to the General Government was to be collected from the Provinces as the three-eighth CustomsffUdue. Had I been there, I should have divided the House on the point. But few members appeared to notice it, with the exception of Mr Yogel, of Otago, and Mr Ward, of Canterbury. It may not be known to most people that it is now law that the suras due to General Government by Provinces shall be charged against these Provinces at the first of July next. So that it may be impossible thatthe three-eighths Customs can be allowed nextsession. We must hope that the elasticity of the taxes will avert this calamity. Some idea of this must have actuated Mr Fitzgerald lately, when he spoke of the downfall of the Provinces. X can make no promise upon that account, because the law may make it absolutely impossible to grant the full three-eighths. Mr Reynolds : One more question. Will you be prepared to modify the present tariff so as to make the articles in general consumption lower than at present ? I may instance the staple articles in use among the great mass of the people, such aa tea, sugar, &c. (Applause.) • Mr Bell: Most certainly, I am obliged to you for asking this question, because it enables me to say it was the hope and certainty in my mind that the imposition of the Stamp Duty would enable us to modify the tariff that got my vote, and th.c vote of a great many in the Assembly last year, to the passing of the Stamp Act. A great many have long'b'tfen of opinion that the tariff pressed unduly upon the necessaries of life,, aud which are therefore matters of consumption by the greater part of the population. We felt some step mu3t be taken to restore our credit, and so to- restore it, as not again to make any further imposition neqeasary' upon matters of necessity. I know thY recent imposition of the Stamp. Duty will enable the promise to be fulfilled immediately on' its' realising a certain s\iw. An effort should be made to reduce taxation. (Applause.) A great number of members will press for this reduction of taxation on the necessaries of life. (Choer3.) Mr Refolds : There is a clause in the Waste Lands Act of Southland, which states chat only 1000 acres per annum can be alienated for the prosecution of public works, &c. I understand the General Government have decline. l to ascei-? to any further alienation, than that laid down in the Act j of course'l do iiqt aliuae to any special undertakings. Jfow assuming that any public work should be required — such as the making of roads, &c, would you be disposed to endeavor to have that restriction removed soasto have a greater amount of laud available for the making of roads, so necessary to the devalopaient of a young country. Mr Bell: I joined with the other representatives of Southland in endeavoring to induce the ; General Government, and they have expressed a willingness to lay aside a certain portion of land to complete certain specific public wqrks. It would be impossibb for me to make a general pledge to any particular proposal. Generally, i am in '{ fiivor it* a well considered plan is" brought forward f to make public works which will be useful to ,- this Province. I think some provision should b 8 > made. (Applause.) MrOsBOESB: Would you be in favor of im- • . posing a tax on wool ? \ Mr Bell : Such a proposal was on the paper but not; p'ufc. It would have been rejected if it had been moved in the Assembly. Squat era ought not ' to bear any special tax, and it would 1 b« unjust, and impolitic to. make such a tax. The ' proposal would not, be listened to for a moment 'Squatters should bear their iair share of taxation 1 but no more.*- The re venue should nut be raised on our articles of export, suah as vtoA aud gold 1 which go to pay for imports. In addition to this, squatters pay large sums for labor in the ilidd:e > Island, " ( CAftAIK CALurtfr: The squatter should be asomething extra as the occupier 'of large portions [ of the publit; lands, and whose profits aro large. Mr Bell: Well he pays his rent. Here it is | 2d per acre, in Canterbury 3i, in Otago 7 |i«mI -lieey. i iio iwo itiusi p •■auba' .irhcio .in ihe . ' «..-rJ*i uiv nhijis !H»<i s!v.-*-p-- (L*u b n> i r.) 15 U , | tiu'so are aiso Urn tfuugs iv wUiuU tiieira ia tuost jwfc, ■'■■ • '•'■■." : ' : : ■

Mr Crouch : Is not the" same objection■'applicable to-a tax on gold? J Mr Bell : Yes. Gold is not taxed. Tale duty is hot imposed upon the production* of the article, but to cover the coat of that Bp|cial ex-" pense incurred for preserving the ortter and p?ace of the people that raise the article."] I have beeji of opiniou that the 2a 6d duty is excessive. At last session I exprrssed my willingness to vote in favor of a reduction. Mr CROUCH : Did Mr Stafford pffer to make a reduction in taxation to the araouut of £30,000 per annum? „ Mr Bstl. : It was understood he had made such Jfc^JS&anent, but Mr Stafford dttnied this wbaa^qiKisrtioned on the subject/ • ; - Br-OBOUCH: Would you be in $oir ot- rote -ballot? . V--- A Bell: I should most certainly vote against it as often as it was brought forward. (Hisses and cheers.). I am sorry t<> hear hisses. I do not think it is quite reasonable that my opinion being contrary to yours, I should -therefore be blamed for it. The best and wisest plan I consider is to -Vote openly as a man would give his opinion. It is the most manly course. (Cheors.) lam against vote by ballot because it would not {jai.i the object desired. When the ballot prevails the legislators are not free, and the/electors? are not free from those same errors and disturbances which are attributed to the present systeni of open voting. You cannot make & law to alter human nature. • ! Mr Cbouch : What style of voting do you call the present — open? ■ Mr Belt.: Notexactly. It is a kind of hybrid. Mr Crouch t Are you acquainted with Torrence's Act, and ypuld you vjßfce for ifc ? Mr Bell: l r es, I tried to get it introduced when Mr Torrence was over hero. There is something like it even-now in.New Zea'and. Mr Reynolds : I propose a vote of confidence in Mr Bell's straightforward explanations this evening. (Loud and continued cheering.) I must say that Ids explanation^ have been very fair, and his answers have been all we could reasonably desire in a representative. (Loud cheers.) i The Chairman said that the njecting had carried the vote with acclamation fhe would,, however, put ifc as a motter^of form. Mr Bell said lie was nojMniite prepared for the generous way in whicifTie had been treated. He referred to the trials of the colony, the high position in which it stood with the home country. No colony stood at all in the same favorable position as the colony of New Zealand. The people had sui'inounfced almost unparalelled difficulties, ami had fought their way to honor and comparative independence. As a politician, he felt proud at the reception he had just received from his constituents, a reception which contrasted strongly with the reception lately ' accorded to other independent men who had met their constituents and had been hissed and received with every mark of eontuouly; such a mark of confidence and generous support was. therefore to him most gratifying. He thanked the electors sincerely, and said he would not fail in the future to do his duty to them as they had done to him. (Loud cheers.) A vote of thanks to the Chairman terminated the proceedings.