PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Southland Times, Issue 620, 18 January 1867, Page 5

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

WEDNESDAY, 16xh JANUARY. ■' Evening Sitting. Present: — The Speaker, Messrs Hodgkinson, Menzies, Luinsden, Blacklock, Armstrong, Holmes, Clerke, Cowan, Johnston, Crerar, Toshack, Wood, Swal6, iTdwell, Cuthbertson. . ' Mr, Cowan, in the absence, of .Mr Cutnberfcsonj asked the Provincial Treasurer whether it ia the intention of the Government to bring the subject of the relations of the Provincial Government and the General Government under the consideration of the Council this session, i The P^ovEsrciAL Treasurer stated that the Government had done all they could by corresponding with the General Government relative fo pastoral rents ; also regarding the liabilities of the Province the Government had done all that could be done by correspondence. Any further- action would come with greater force if' taken by an individual member of Council.; .". . . ■ moveci,- "that this Councjl is of opinion that full effect should be given to a resolution passed during its previous session, viz : — For placing the Campbelltion passenger station further westward, and that in accordance with that resolutiohp and the wishes of the residents of Oampbelltown, the passenger station sliquld be erected one hundred feet westward of the site now selected." He aaid^tbat -the inhabitants of Campbelltown had not been made aware of any gj6@d reason why their petition should be refu'sea*. No engineering difficulties were in the way. The contractor was willing to make the change free of expense, and the, timber was all on the ground. The distance -arranged by Mr Paterson originally, was 263 feet, which he thought MffieSent, the inhabitants ask 440 feet, biff tHe now wishes 540. If the wishes, of petitioners could be coupled witttKer change, it would be advantageous to them, and a benefit to the place tm^- Province. j [ r |lr Lttmsdest seconded the motion with a view to elicit further discussion. He hadrmoved for the select committee at last^session, after examination that comniittee reported that it was their opinion thai/ -the wishes of petitioners should be conceded to the greatest extent possible. He thought the question should be left to a great extent to the judgment of the Railway Engineer. The Complaint he believed arose from the circumstance that the station was not to be opposite somebody's door. The demand Should be conceded only so far as consistent with the public interest, and the ipatter should be left with the Government. ;. The Prove? ciai TREASTJRERbeIieved the plans had been altered by the Engineer so far as practicable to suit the views of petitioners. The Government bowed to his decision. ;tMt Armstrong concurred. -Dr Menzies contended there were serious objections to the Engineer's plan on public grounds, inasmuch as by this plan the public would be shut out to a great extent from the Jetty and from the Custom House and Post Office unless by making a considerable detour or by crossing a line of rails. He suggested .that the Railway Engineer should reconsider the matter and endeavor in the meantime to arrest the progress of the works,, and. ascertain the full extent of the, difficulties which he sees in the way. If this were done the difficulties would disappear. ; Mr Cowan thought non-piofessional men 'would feel a difficulty -in deciding, arid He felt inclined to leave it to the decision of the Railway Engineer. .;; Mr Cuthbertsojs coincided, and would vote against the motion. Mr Johnstone saw no reason why the wishes of the petition should not be attended to. The change would benefit Campbelltown and the Province. The PBOVTffCiAii Treasurer said the government would not object to refer the matter for reconsideration, provided the contractors agreed to stop the works. •..i: Mr Wood explained away objections. The Speaker having decided for the motion, a division was called for by Mr .Cuttbertson. There voted for the motion — Messrs HodgMnson, Johnston, Menzies, Lumsden, Crerar, Wood, Swale, Clerke, -r-8 ; and against, Messrs Blacklock,. Armstrong, Holmes, Cowan, Ho well, Sfurse, Cuthbertson — 7. nThe Provincial Treasurer wished before proceeding with the orders of the day to lay "oh the table the papers (called ior _by '<Mr Lumsden) in reference to the Bluff Harbor and Invercargill Railway, rstation that being the originals they would be for the perusal of the members, they giving a receipt for them. He entered into a very lengthy explanation showing that the claim by the contractors for the sum of £4762 15s 4d exclusive of interest had been settled by the non performance of sundry parts of the work specified in the contract but stated by the Railway Engineer to be of vital importance. He concluded by Baying that after the hon. members had had an opportunity of perusing the various documents the Govern■zneht would be happy to give any further . explanations that m%ht be required. Mr Cowan moved, and Mr Cuthbertson seconded, that the correspondence relating to the lien on contract JS~o. 2 be read. Read accordingly. The Provincial Treasurer, in moving ■the second reading of the Bluff Harbor -and Invercargill Railway Leasing Ordinance, Amendment Ordinance, 1867," said that the Ordinance passed by the Council at its last sitting had been disallowed by the Governor, for reasons * given in a letter which had been laid on the table the other day. The objection was that the Ordinance did not provide that .the Governor's assent was required to the •leasing of our railways. He, the speaker, r then. read two offers which had been Received by; the Government for leasing , liotK'riailways for the purpose of showing fckat parfcie* were willing to ttfeettom up.

On receiving these offer* a letter tfaa written to the General Government, and the Colonial Secretary had replied that they approved of the general principle of the scheme. The Government therefore brought forward another Leasing Ordi- ■ nance, and the • time • proposed was 25 j years". If at any time the Government desired to take the line into their own hands, they could do so within seven years on the payment of £50,000. Some hon. members might think that it was not expedient to lease the line at all, and that it would be better for the Government to work the railways. The Government could not work the. Northern line any longer owiug to the state ,in which the rails were. They could only work the Southern line ; but he (the 1 Treasurer) was of opinion that private individuals coilld wdrk a railway much inora cheaply than the Government, as they could do with fewer officials. Seconded by Mr Armstrong. Mr Holmes did not agree with the hon. the Treasurer as to the desirability of leasing the Bluff -Harbor and Invercargill Railway. There was no data from which to estimate the amount that would be derived from working it. There was no doubt that there would be a considerable outlay for the first year, owing to the loose manner in which the line had been constructed. It was proposed to give the line on condition that the Northern line should be finished. He apprehended that a lease of the Northern line by itself ! should get it completed with the Bluff line. He thought that 25 years was too long a period to lease the railway ; and considered 7 years long enough. He believed that the colony had reached its lowest ebb, and that every year there would be great improvements. He (Mr Holmes) had no confidence in the ability or capacity of those in office for carrying on the business of the Province when they brought forward a bill of this sort; There had been a great want of forethought and management throughout in dealing with railway questions, and he was not at all satisfied with the explanations of the Provincial Treasurer. ; How could they place any confidence in 1 the gentlemen opposite, when they considered the manner in which the steamer Southland, and other important matters had been treated. He could see no reason why they should not take ample time to test what could be made out of the railways; He moved that the bill be not read a second time. Mr Cuthbertson would be glad to know before a division on the question whether the Government considered the leasing for 25 years a principle of the Bill, or whether a shorter period would not be sanctioned. The objection to leasing the line might thereby be obviated. The Treasurer replied that the Superintendent was at present empowered to lease the Bluff Harbor and Invercargill Railway, for 10 years, and the Oreti line for 14 years. That term would not satisfy contractors. The Government would not object to limiting the time to 21 years. Mr (Juthbertson, with that explanation would second the amendment. He considered that such powers should not be placed in the hands of even the shrewdest heads, for no one could tell how the next few years might turn out, and there was a possibility that it might be adverse to the future interests of the Province to alienate the railways for so long a time. He objected to the Bill being read a second time. Dr Hodgkinson was not convinced by the argument of thehon. memberfor Oteramika (Mr Holmes). He thought that his remarks had been to severe on the present Government They all knew that these gentlemen had very difficult duties to perform, it was not easy to get members to accept the responsibility. He considered that the offer for leasing the railways and getting the Northern line finished was worth being entertained, and he would therefore support the Bill. Mr Clerke, in supporting the amendment, thought it the height of madness to allow the present Government to lease railways. They had proved themselves quitejjimbecile, or they had never asked that House to draw up a budget for them, proving their incapacity. Mr Cowan thought that the motive which the Government had in bringing forward that Bill was to give effect to an offer which had been received. He was strongly of opinion that the maintenance of railways should not devolve upon any Government. From his experience he thought that a company couTd work railways much better than any Government ; but he was opposed to leasing our railways for such a long period as was proposed by this Bill. He didn't concur in the manner in which this amendment had been brought forward and supported by the mover. Mr Lumsden thought the member for Oteramika was unaware that a leasing Ordinance had been passed at a former session, when he (Mr Lumsden) was the only member who opposed it. He thought it necessary that the Government should bring forward some data for the Council to frame an estimate of its value upon. It was a matter of vital importance to the Province, and believed no business would let or lease for such a lengthened period without some data of value. Anyone tendering would be sure to leave a very wide margin for losses which might not occur, and thus be a great loss to the Province. After hearing the documents read in reference to Messrs Dalgety, Rattray's lien he would be chary in trusting any Government with railway contractors. He thought before half the time proposed in the Bill had passed the railway would be a great source of revenue. He could not endorse the idea that Government could not work as cheaply, though he > was aware that Governments generally wer9 extra vagantj but if the Legislature looked into the accounts the Government could be made -to retrench. He , was •till dj^Wtfl tb t&» ]pMfing of

tho railway b. until they had aome data to go upon, and ihottld support the amendment. " . t)r Menziea objected to the bill on the Bame grourids as the hori. member for Invercargill. Let the railway be worked for a short time, and find out whether it would pay. He thought it a fallacious argument that if the G-overnment worked the line, in a time, and it did not pay, that no one would tender for it. He ■ thought that the deep depression under Which we had beeti suffering was now past, arid that shortly we should look back and almost disbelieve' we, had been in such a state. The value of land must rise in the province. Unless the Council had some data they would be giving away an asset in utter ignorance of its real value. He agreed with the most of the remarks, of the hon. member for Ofcer- ' amika, though he had p J erha;ps expressed himseif more strongly than he would have done. He thought the terms of the bill too vague, and if it got as far as to go into Committee, he should move some amendments to it. Mr Pearson went at great length into statistics of railways in Victoria, showing in every iustauce no matte? the length or shortness of the line, the large amount of traffic in comparison with what we were likely to have, and there was always a loss in their working by Government. He was convinced that a company could much more cheaply work a line than a Government, and a private individual than a company. ■ Mr Toshack quite approved of the | railways being let or leased, but thought they should be worked a short time to be able to form an estimate of their value. The hon. member for fOteramika had 3aid in the Council some S years since that the Bluff Harbor and Invercargill Railway would some day terminate at j Nelson. ; He wished the subject to be | fully ventilated and every member to j give his views on the subject, and for that purpose would move that the debate be adjourned to the following evening. Dr Hodgkinson seconded the amendment. i Mr Cuthbertson wished to correct a statement he had made in his former remarks. The Superintendent had the power to lease the line at any time for 10 years for any amount, though at the time the Ordinance was passed the Council passed a resolution that all offers should be first submitted to the Council for approval. The leasing of the railways'was a matter for serious attention, and he would support the motion for the adjournment, as he was not prepared to give a vote that evening. If the bill was modified he might support it. The debate was then adjourned. On the motion of the Provincial Treasurer, the 2nd reading of the Oreti Railway Leasing Ordinance was postponed to the next evening. The House adjourned at 11,40 to 2 p.m. next day.