MONDAY, 19th MARCH, 1866.

Southland Times, Volume III, Issue 231, 21 March 1866, Page 2

MONDAY, 19th MARCH, 1866.

The Speakeb took the chair at 7.15 p.m. Tbe minutes of last meeting were read and -confirmed. Notices of motion for next meeting were given by Messrs Holmes and "Pp q "p a on ' NOTICES OE MOTION. Mr. JOHNSTON, in the absence of Mr. Stuart, moved that questions, 1, 2, 3, and 4, bt postponed till the evening of Tuesday. MINISTERIAL EXPLANATION. Mr. CTJTHBEETSON, before tbe motion of the day was put, desired to make an explanation of his position, and to state that in his endeavors to form a new Executive he had met with the greatest courtesy from all tbe gentlemen with whom be bad occasion to communicate. It must be apparent, he said to all, that an attempt at an imitation of a responsible Governmentin a Council composed of twenty members of whom at most not more than five are actually eligible for the carrying on of the Government, must be fraught with no ordinary difficulties. The materials were wanting. With all respect for the talent in the Council, there were only three or four members living near enough to the metropolis, to afford their assistance to the Superintendent. (Mr. Cuthbertson) wasnot able to offer two or three places of £500 a year, otherwise bis position might certainly have been more pleasant. The only offer at bis disposal was the Treasurership, an appointment which he thought, not an "object of desire for a gentleman who would be expected to devote the hours of from 10 till 4 every day to the work, aud have to meet all the external unpleasantness attaching to a political office. He had cast about for a gentlemen to fill tbis office. The gentleman who bad recently filled the Provincial Treasurship was not connected with the matters which lead to the passing of tbe recent vote. Its acceptance was considered by him a delicate matter, and|only after considerable persuasion was be induced to see that his duty to the Province, and tbe pubhc ought to overcome any scruples be might have in resuming bis position. With tbe advice of his friends, be assented, and (Mr. Cuthbertson) said he therefore came before the Council, with, as colleagues, Mr. Wood, and Mr. Blacklock, as Provincial Secretary and Treasurer. He looked upon Mr. Blacklock's acceptance of this office, as a concession on his part, a favor to the Province, that I must be looked upon as dictated by pure patriotism. He (Mr. Cuthbertson), although willing to serve the Province as far as it lies in his power, bad declined to occupy tbe position himself as he would thereby have subjected himself to a very considerable pecuniary loss. He was not prepared to bring forward any definite programme of policy. But with reference to the question upon which the change was instituted, that an investigation should be made into the management, not only of the Eailway, but the causes of tbe general financial embarrassment of the Province, the present Government were as one with the Council. He bad not time to consult with bis colleagues as to the best mode of procedure to be adopted in tbe investigation, but could assure the House that the investigation would be pursued with all the promptitude and vigor that it was in their power to command. He said unless some special and unforeseen circumstance should arise, he had no intention whatever to ask for any provision for the payment of any award that might be made in tbe arbitration case, wliich lately formed the subject of debate. There were still two vacancies in tbe Executive to fill up. ( He was in hopes he should be able to fill up one vacancy shortly with a gentleman who, from his well known ability, would meet with the approbation both of His Honor tbe Superintendent and tbe House. The Provincial Solicitor's place he bad made no arrangement to fill up for the present. It is in tbe Constitution that the Provincial Solicitor shaE be ex-officio a member of the Executive. It did not appear to him important to make immediate arrangements to fill up thatplace, and he had made bq attempt to do

so. He had to state, however, that his influence should be exerted to obtain for tbe Province the best legal advice, and that the appointment should be conferred irrespective of all political considerations. Tbe assistance of our late Provincial Solicitor bad been, be (Mr. Cutbbertson) said, in many ways of value to the Council, and that hon. members would bear witness to this be stated that Mr. Macdonald on being applied to bad very courteously agreed to act as be bad hitherto done, although in no way connected with tbe Government or bound to support their policy. He bad further courteously agreed to assist in drafting any bills which tbe Government might think it necessary to bring forward. His assistance was to be for tbe remainder of tbe session, purely of a legal character, and that gratuitously afforded. Sometime ago the late Provincial Solicitor announced bis intention of retiring from the Executive and tbe Council, at tbe close of tbis session. He (Mr. Cutbbertson) believed that bis intention had not been modified by recent events, although no doubt be might have preferred to resign after having successfully carried tbe Government through tbe present crisis ; still his duty to bis constituents induced him to retain bis seat till tbe close of tbis session. He (Mr. Cutbbertson) said be would have pleasure in answering the usual questions put to the Government, and hoped that the course of policy which tbey should carry out would meet tbe Councils' approval, and that policy would have regard to tbe impartial promotion of all the interests of the province, agricultural, pastoral, or commercial, and without fear or favor would investigate what bad been done by their predecessors. Whatever new appointments or provisions were made would be made strictly with a view to public convenience and utility, and with a very strict regard to economy. Tbe public were under tbe impression that tbe Government were in possession of a considerable amount of funds— fhat tbe fourth part of tbe price of tbe land accrues to the Province. This is a delusion. Tbe Government were entirely dependent on three-eighths of tbe Customs Eevenue and a few local dues, a very small sum, that any trifling addition to tbe ordinary expenditure would entirely absorb. Of money tbe Executive bad certainly very little at their command. But what means were at their disposal tbey meant to use to tbe greatest advantage. Mr. Cuthbertson then referred to the Executive Council Ordinance recently passed ; after pointing out what be considered would render its working impracticable, said it might be found necessary to submit tbis Ordinance to tbe reconsideration of. tbe present Council. Mr. JOHNSTON'S motion, that questions No. 1, 2, 3, and 4, be postponed till next Council meeting, was then seconded by Mr. Hay and carried. LOCAL IMPROVEMENT ORDINANCE 1866. Mr. PEAESON said that having bad tbe pleasure of resigning bis seat as a member of tbe Executive, be could not undertake to ask leave to bring in this Bill, but would band it over to tbe hon. member for Longwood. Mr. CCTTHBEETSON asked leave to bring in this bill, that it be now read, and that it be made an order of the day for next sitting. Seconded and carried. THE TRAMWAY TO THE MATAURA. Mr. AEMSTEONG moved that it is the opinion of tbis House that, taking the financial state of the Province into consideration, and tbe Public Works yet unfinished, that it would be unwise to increase our expenditure by the formation of a Tramway to the Mataura." He said the only argument be would adduce vras tbe one contained in the resolution. He pointed to the unfinished roads and asked in tbe face of existing circumstances whether it would be wise to subject tbe Province to a fresh draft upon its diminisbedresources. Hereferred to a petition from the settlers in the district against the proposed Tramway. The Council could hardly be prepared to say these men were misguided, and could as well point to our experience in railway matters, and show what a boon these had been to the community. If it could be shown that tbis tramway would be a great benefit, and that there was money to pay for its construction, be would withdraw his motion, if not be would press it. He wished to ascertain tbe opinion of the Council. If a company could be got to do the work at their own expense, let them do it. Mr. CLAEK seconded the motion. Mr. CTJTHBEETSON said tbe present Government entertained no idea whatever of adding to our debt of £500,000 by the formation of a tramway when the roads would be kept in an efficient state by a moderate outlay. He knew the General Government would not permit the alienation of land for such a purpose. There could be no objection to a company making a road and taking a lease of it. Mr. WOOD thought the time of the members in this discussion might be saved. No correspondence, so far as be could learn, bad lately taken place on the matter. The motion was unnecessary, and as it bound the Council when in a position to do something, it might be injurious. He would suggest that the motion be withdrawn. Mr. PEAESON stated that tbe gentlemen who had made tbe proposal to construct a tramway, was only waiting for some definite proposition from the Government to carry out their intention." Mr. Douglas was to write home two mails ago, and he would be prepared with the necessary information very shortly. The gentlemen were prepared to carry out tbe work and find the necessary funds. Mr. BLACKLOCK 'thought tbe motion hardly definite enough. Did tbe hon. member who put the motion mean that it was unwise to give land in exchange for tbe sum spent in making tbe tramway ? Mr. AEMSTEONG— Certainly, Mr, HOLMES said the company who

made the offer to construct the tramway, is prepared to carry out the proposition, and they had got the means. The original proposition was, that tbey should get land at the ordinary upset price, and tbe cost of the tramway to be the lowest that it could be constructed for. Their intentions was to open up the country in which tbey are so much interested. They own i large tracts of land, a great portion of which is valueless from want of roads. The so-called road is a quagmire during the winter, and a tramway or road was a necessity. Earmers might have any amount of produce, and find it valueless for want of a road to market. Mr. JOHNSTON thought the motion would have come with a better grace from a member living on the other side of the country. On the East Eoad the G-overnment had spent some £14,000, while on the North Eoad there bad been Bpent some £40,000, besides about £20,000 contingently spent on the same road. The sooner tbe tramway was made the better for tbe country, the farmers, and tbe Customs Eevenue. A large tract of country on the other side of tbe Mataura would be opened up which would add greatly to tbe revenue, and thus develope the resources of Southland. Mr. AEMSTEONG- said be was not desirous of pressing his motion. Mr. HAY moved that looking at tbe amount of land revenue that has been raised in the east district of tbe province, the injustice it has met with in the apportionment of public moneys, and also tbe population and tbe amount of capital that has been and is being employed in tbe improvement of land ; and seeing that there is no outlet for tbe produce of sueb land except by tbe East Eoad, this Council is of opinion that tbe formation of a road or tramway is necessary, and would conduce to the development of tbe resources of tbe district, and to the increase of tbe Customs Eevenue." Mr. HOLMES seconded. Mr. COWAN said tbe paragraph in the motion in which it is stated " injustice" bad been done bad not been proved, and be could not endorse that statement. Every road in tbe province received its j sbare of attention so far as the means of the Provincial G-overnment would go. He opposed tbe amendment because of tbis paragraph. Mr. HOLMES contended that tbe word "injustice" was perfectly correct. He thought the mere fact of the members representing constituencies on tbe East Eoad not • taking 'an interest and advocating their claims bad caused that road to be held in abeyance. £40,000 bad been spent on tbe North Eoad and afterwards a railway was constructed. On tbe Eiverton Eoad there was not a bridge or culvert wanting, and it was beautifully gravelled. Tbe district bad been well represented, and £40,000 bad' been spent on tbe North Eoad. Mr. SPEAKEE— To no purpose. Mr. HOLMES— StiII tbe money was spent. Tlie state of tbe East Eoad had done more to retard settlement in tbe province than any one could conceive, and be (Mr. Holmes) could speak on tbe point with peculiar emphasis. He eonamenced to cultivate largely in that district and could have produced 50,000 bushels of grain a-year, but be immediately found tbe district neglected and no road to convey produce to market. He therefore took bis energies to another quarter, and so tbe province loses all tbe advantages of a large expenditure in labor, and a large amount of export in grain. There was no telling the quantity of grain that could be grown in that district, and that on land available without any trouble whatever. He did not think it in good taste to bring forward gratuitously a motion asking tbe Council to prevent any change for the better in respect of roads. If -here was any money to be spent, tbe East Eoad bad the best right to it. (Hear, bear.) He supported tbe amendment. Mr. JOHNSTON supported the amendment, and tbe <word " injustice." The worst road in tbe province was tbe Ea3t Eoad, and tbe district was tbe best one in the province. £3 per ton for ten miles was the rate paid during winter for draying produce into town. The price of provisions was by tbis charge very much increased and tbe revenue lessened. Mr. AEMSTEONG- thought some of the roads bad received justice, but be was not going to make a claim for any of tbem. It was resolved at last session that no money should be spent on roads unless these could be finished substantially, and until tbe Bluff Eailway was finished no metal could be got so to finish tbe road. Dr. HODGrKINSON was not able either to deny or affirm that injustice had been done, and therefore be could not support the amendment. Mr. CTJTHBEETSON thought the discussion could not possibly yield any practical result for many years, and that Doth tbe motion and amendment should be withdrawn. Dr. MENZIES thought it undesirable to raise tbe question of one district against another. Tbe expense upon tbe North Eoad was increased in order to shorten by 40 miles the road to the goldfields, where, at the time all t_e traffic in tbe province tended. Tbe prosperity of tbe whole place depended, or was thought to depend, upon tbe making of tbis North Eoad. The East Eoad did not require a special outlet for a special purpose. Still be thought these discussions did lead to good results as opening up tbe question, and subsequently enabled the members of the Council to enter into each others views. He would vote against the amendment, and he did not think tbe original motion should be pressfed. Mr. AEMSTEONG concurred with the hon. member, and thought his discussion had been satisfactory. He would withdraw bis motion. Mr. HOLMES— Tbe necessity for some improvement on the East Eoad has been conceded. I wish that opinion expresed in tbe amendment I now bold — " That in the opinion of this Council it is desirable to make a road, or tramway tQ

the Mataura, and that the' first funds . available be devoted to that purpose." Tbe hon. member, in advocating this motion, said there were farms in that district that would be looked upon with ' admiration in any part of the world. Even in Great Britain you could see nothing like tbem. Three, or four steam ' ploughs at one establishment, and perhaps two iundred men. Tbe town and country interests were identical, and did the people of Invercargill consider their own *j. interest they would not be long in getting a road. There were on the Mataura Plains 50,000 acres of table land, every acre of which would support an adult. On the other side of the Mataura, in Otago Province, there was a large district and everything produced there would find its way to Invercnrgill were a proper road opened. Mr. HAT said he would withdraw his amendment in favor of the amendment of the hon. member for Oteramika. Mr. JOHNSTON said there never would be surplus funds, the amendment ' was altogether superfluous, and he seconded the proposal in favor of the hon. member for Invercargill, that the motion be withdrawn. Mr. PEARSON furnished some statistics confirmatory of the amounts stated as expended . on the various roads. The expenditure on the North Road had been a mistake, and the aj^cultural interest had heen neglected, the establishment of an escort had not been made in time to render the North Road expenditure of use. With? the exception always of the Wainawa district, the Mataura district had been the worst treated of any. (A laugh) that after some little expenditure was made on the Wainawa district, (as the most important district in the Province,) the Mataura road should be kept in good repair. If the General Government would grant land, it would be advisable to make the Mataura Road a first charge on the Province, next to Wainawa. Mr. BLACKLOCK concurred in the opinion that the Ea_t Road had not got its fair share of public money, but thought it would be unwise in the Council to pledge itself in the meantime. The amendment went too far. He would oppose it. Mr. WOOD said it was well known he had interested himself in the East Road, as being the road leading to the heart of the country, and the claims of the settlers should not be lost sight of' (hear, hear). A good road in that direction might by this time have lead to most important results, as for the present road what shall I call it? (Mr. Johnston — a canal). Th_ greatest amount of land had been sold in tbis district, and purchasers were deterred from coming forward, owing to the want of a road. Mr. ARMSTRONG- — it is not a question as to which is the most important Road, the question was, had the Government money to spend ? Mr. HODGKINSON moved that it is the opinion of the Council that the road from Invercargill to Mataura should be made available for traffic as soon as the financial Iposition of the Province shall warrant the outlay. Mr. COWAN seconded. Mr. HOLMES objected to leave being granted Mr. Armstrong to withdraw his motion, and asked for a division. On the amendments by Messrs Hay, Holmes, and Hodgkinson being put the original motion was lost. Mr. CUTHBERTSON said the most tender conscience might agree to the last amendment. (Dr. Hodgkinson's.) The amendment was carried. BRIDGE EOR THE ORETI. Mr. CLARK moved that the Superintendent be authorised to lease the Oreti Eerry for a term of years to any person, who would, at their own expense, construct a bridge across the Oreti River." He said, as there was no chance of getting money placed in the Estimates, he therefore thought no one could object to a system of leasing. A bridge might cost £1500. The revenue being at present three or four hundred a year would induce any one to enter into it. The punt had cost £420, and the expense for repairs last year £90, and no revenue had been derived from it. The holder got a free house and; three hundred acres of land. > Dr. HODGKLNSON suggested that an . agreement should be gone into very cautiously. A large increase in traffic might be expected. Dr. HOLMES supported the motion and suggested a pontoon bridge as suitable. ■ yMr. HAY objected to a pontoon bridge as likely to interfere with traffic on the river. The SPEAKER concurred in Mr. Hay's reMr. ARMSTRONG . said a pontoon bridge need not stop the heavy traffic, and referred as illustration to the Pontoon Bridge on the Rhine. Mr. COWAN said the impediment could be got over by a drawbridge. The motion was put, seconded by Dr. HODGKINSON, and carried. GOVERNMENT OEEICLALS. Mr. HAY moved that this Council disapproves of officials in the employment of the Provincial Government interfering in Elections otherwise than by recording their vote. He (Mr. HAY) said it had been the rule in Southland rather than the exception for officials to canvas for votes, a course of proceeding which he conceived interfered with the purity of elections. He therefore brought forward the motion. Mr. HOLMES thought the principle good, and seconded. In reply to Mr. COWAN, the hon. member (Mr. HAY) said he meant the motion to refer to elections for the House of Representatives, as well as for the Provincial Council. Mr. COWAN also thought the principle good, and would support it. Dr. HODGKINSON, while admitting the principle, thought the motion was rather too far in including elections for the General Assembly. He thought, however, that Government officials should hot use their influence as Government officials in order to influence elections. (Hear, hear.) He saw no reason why they should not attend a meeting like Mr. Bell's, or make a speech, provided they brought no undue influence^ This motion woul_ deprive a ma_ on account of his being a Government official of all his rights. (Hear, hear.) He moved an amendment thatthis Council disapprove of members of Council, or officials of Government holding appointment, making use of their official position to influenceelections. Mr. ARMSTRONG thought the Council would, deprecate anybody unduly influencing elections, (A laugh.) The SPEAKER explained there was already a a law bearing on the point which inflicted a penalty hi case of infringement. That law was disregarded by members of the Government of Southland. (Cries of order, order. — Question.) Mr. BLACKLOCK supported the amendment. The mover had asserted that on the occasion of the last election the Government offices were virtually closed. He (Mr. Blacklock) denied that these offices were closed on that day any more than on any other. The motion would be .goodin Provincial elections but on general elections every man ought to be free to. exercise his influence. He opposed the motion, even as a Government man, he would act as he thought proper, in elections of all sorts. (Cries of orderorder) — this motion should apply to officials of another description. Dr. MENZIES opposed the amendment, and advocated the original motion, as evincing more tbe desire of the Council to adhere to a constitutional spirit. " .- Mr. MACDONALD supported tiie amendment. The effect of the motion would be that from the Superintendent downwards, members -of Govern*roeut, or officials, wouWhe, deprived from taking

any part in elections, and would not even be able to become candidates. He thought the principle intended to be conveyed would be conveyed in the amendment. Mr. CUTHBERTSON concurred with Mr. Macdonald, and supported the amendment. Mr. ARMSTRONG said the country was a free one, and Government officials had a stake in the country. Still they shoud not take any conspicious part in elections, but had a right to record their votes, and as to undue influence such -an influence might be used by others, as no way connected with Government, a storekeeper by a reference to his ledger, might influence votes. The amendment was put and carried. ORDERS OF THE DAT. The Council then proceeded to consider the orders of the day. 1. The Cattle Trespass Ordinance 1866, was read a third time and passed. 2. Adjourned Committee on Sheep Ordinance, 1866, brought up their report.