EVENING SITTING.

Southland Times, Volume III, Issue 43, 15 February 1864, Page 5

EVENING SITTING.

The Speaker took the Chair at a quarterpast six, when the following members were prejcnt: — Messrs. Calder, Cowan, Howell, Tarlton, and Rogers. No notices of motion being given Mr. STUAUT was called to move that the Committee appointed to prepare a reply . to His 'Honor the Superintendent's address, bring up tlieir report. Mr. CALDER said that, as Mr. Stuart and . other members were not in their places, there must be some 'misunderstanding as to ' the hour of .meeting. 'He thought the motion changing-- the hour had not been explicit enough. ' • j . I 6 Mr. TARLTON, and Mr. COWAN, the . mo*»er and seconder of the adjournment at the morning- s'sittings, replied that the motion was made ill definite terms. After some consultation, * Mr._CAIiDER_mQV.ed " That the House adjourn till seven o'clock."

' ""Vliv HOWELL seconded the'motiori, which was agreed to. ; "aa:: ; Ad jottexed Sitting. ;■ Y* ■r. - . - rrt>The Speaker took the Chair at seven o'clock, whon i nearly' all "the ' members were preseut. The .-remainder arrived shortly afterwards. ■ A ; S, Notices of MotiqV '.'**' Mr. COWAN gave notice, "That atYnext niorning' s : sittings he would ask leave to bring in a BiUj intitiUed ' The Debentures Bill, No, 1,.1864.'" ''A'-. : ■■':.■<: A.: • Mr. M'KAY gave notice, "That at n^xfc i morning's sitting he .would ask leave to. bring . in. a, bul, intituled 'The Appropriation" Bill, •': ■ yy i ; Y His^Ho^oßAND'Titi! Executive. ■''*"' s : m. 'CHALMERS -said tliat 1 ," befoija the motion was inade, he would make tho following.* explanations :■■]■—?■ Questions: of import arose, out of what, at iirst -sight, Yappeared to. bo of very small „ moment, .and what the ultimate effects might be; it was YclifFi-" cult to foresee. Last session the' estimates passed, prowled "for ' "what ""had been previously the Engineer's department, hut whicli was now two departments, Eoads. and Bridgos, .and , Public. Works. Some , time bofpre. His Honor the Superintendent loft for Auckland the question was under discussion in tho Executive '.Council as to who should bo appointed to fill the oflloo of Engineer to tho Roads and Bridges Department, Ono gentle, man's *naino was mentioned, when several objections wove raised against his appointment, .'and various reasons assigned— sueh as Ida youth 7 , inexperience, &e,, and the matter j ended by His 'Honor' -intimating that he had' as good a3 given the appointment to another party. Very much surprise was felt by the. members of tho Executive, and it was* solely because His Honor was going to Auckland and tho fear of disarranging business, that tho members did not resign at once. However, it was arranged that the gentleman wlio had the appointment offered to him shoidd be, written to, and told to come down at once, or the H2AA6 vrcv.lr> not bo kept open, and he would have to take his' cir ncc with tho other candidates. His Honor also arranged to write liim of this in Dunedin. No special time was fixed limiting his appearance. After His Honor had left, it was agreed between Mr. Stuart and himself that tliey should wait about ten days for the gentleman to arrive, and if he did not come then to write to the firm who had acted a* agents iu such cases before — Messrs. Gillies and Street — requesting them to advertise for a suitable person, he (Mr. Chalmers) also asking Mr. Street if he knew of such a man to send him down, and the person offered tho appointment was also written to, tliat unless ho was down by a certain time they would require to get another. He did not come by the time stated. The applications were to be sent here by the 21th (Tuesday), and on the morning of thatday none had been put in. He was not aware at the time that the mail from Dunedin did not come till next-day, and on that morning he found a letter from DunediiK stating that the gentleman was coming down. His Honor, before going away, left for the person ii letter, containing his appointment from the 2nd November. Seeing no application had come by post he felt hardly justified in saying anything on the matter, as tlie appointment did not come from him, so he merely intimated to tlie gentleman that he should be appointed. That was the first cause of misunderstanding, but ou considering tlie matter over he saw tw .*> or three other points which had arisen beforehand. His Honor had apparently acted in small matters, not in great, without consulting (he Executive. As sueh did tliey view this appointment, aud therefore the members of the Provincial Council sent the docuriicnt before them, simply stating they would not accept offiee in the Executive, unless liis Honor would act with the Executive Council. When His Honor returned it was laid before him. and he was puzzled to know whether it was an expression of the Council or merely of the Executive. Mr. Stuart had now sent in his resignation and it was accepted. His Honor then wrote the memorandum and submitted it to the remaining members, and so dissatisfied were they with its contents that they sent in their rc-si-niations at once. He (Mr. Chalmers) was asked to retain his seat for one month, which expired that day. He need not say that he did not agree with the memorandum. Tt was generally understood that the Provincial Council Ordinance No. 3 was a sort of compact or understanding between the Superintendent of a Province and those gentlemen whom he might appoint his Executive, that in all matters connected with the welfare and prosperity of the Province they should be consulted. If the Executive were to bring forward measures and support these in Council they must have some voice — be au Executive iu the strict sense of the word. The Superintendent certainly possessed some powers which were mentioned in various Acts. That he might or might not legally use them ; that he might or might not use them independently was the opinion of the Executive. And still ho was morally bound by the opinion of the majority; the minority, as in all such cases, giving way. One point not stated was the fact, that even if the majority concurred,' in opinion on matters foreign to the special affairs of 1 the Province, such as the importation of cattle, the Superintendent had the power of veto. In that case it stultified the opinion of the Executive. Tliis assertion of His Honor that they were only a consultative body in matters external to Provincial legislation ; that they were an Executive only in matters of Provincial legislation; and that still he had the power of veto, let! them to say what is the use of an Executive at all, if he thought proper to veto their decisions ? Such wore the simple facts, and it was impossible for the Executive io do anything else than resign. Mr. COWAN remarked that the starting point for the members of the Executive, was the fact that a certain Ordinance makes it neeessary that an Executive shoidd existThat same Ordinance prescribed and laid down the mode of procedure in the affairs of the Council. The spirit of it was that the Superintendent shoidd act with the advice and consent of the Executive. They were all perfectly well aware that His Honor possessed delegated powers from the Governor, with which they, as a Provincial Council, had nothing to do, but so long as such an Ordinance was in existence, it must be their guide wltile it was law. So long as His Honor acted in accordance with that Ordinance he must act with an Executive, and the responsibility must rest with the members of it. If they did evil in matters of public importance they could be blamedj and if otherwise, praise | could be accorded. Mr., STUAET A sa id L the explanations of.the geritleman who had just spoken : (Mr.. Chalmers) were substantially liis own, Yand he would only add a few words to bring j out more prominently ' the cause which led | him, personally, to resign his seat. When the Council last rose he had just a few days previously accepted a scat in the Executive, and for, a week previous to Dr. Menzie's departure for Auckland he attended regularly' the sit 1 tings. Things went on smootldy till one day Hfe Honor brought forward the subject of appointing an Engineer of -Roads by Stating that- he ' had sent to Melbourne, ,'tojthe, agents there, foi* the purpose ? -of endeavoring to procure a suitable person. TJie A answer he received . was tliat with that ; distance, the time*" at -their disposal; and . •smlallness ■' of the : salary, offered* it" would be impossible to -procure;.. a Suitable persouj and any -expectation of , obtaining an Engineer from '"Victona w-as out of the question. His Honor then stated; that he ; had an' application "'from a* gentleman in' Dunedin— the present Engineer Yof Roads and Bridges-^-and added, " I suppose We may^^pqinthipa." , Ho (Mr,' Stuart) asietl to see hie* testimonials, and,

regarding rthem, he would only say- they were hot Satisfactory to his mind. After discussing tho subject half an hour Dr. Menzios said again, " I suppose .we shall consider the appointment made ; " but he (Mr Stuart) objected, atid. a^ his request the mat-, ter was deferred till the next meeting of" tlie "' Executive, Nothing more was said on the matter, but, before leaving, His Honor instructed the Executive that if the gentleman did .-not come in a t reasonable time; thoy, shouid advertise, hi; Dunedin for another. They, did wait for a reasonable time; two "niails arrived ' ahd there was no appeararice. Accordingly they wrote to Dunedin instructing that- advertisements be inserted in- the; newspapers, the applications to. he made i'hot later than a, certain day. Oii. the morning of that day Mr'Y'Buiicta^ turned lip, land a letter loft for him by Dr. Monzies was handed 'to 1 , him. It • was • dated - threo days" before the Doctor •left,- and contained Mr. D.ttnt das's ; 'appointment. . ; The opinion ho , always hold regarding tho duties of tho Executive and' Superintehctent wa3, very sirnplo and plain . He considor'ed that whatever responsibility tho Superintendent had previous to thd passing of tho Provincial Oovernment Ordinance, tliafc Ordinanco, which was in one sense an agreement between tho Superintendent and Provincial Oounoil, took away what responsibility ho had and placed it on tho shoulders of tho Executive. Ho also oon» sidered. that if the Executive had all the responsibility it must havo nil tho control, and holding thoso opinions, considering it his duty to his constituents to remain no longer where he was of no Service. Thk Reply to the Address. Mr. CHALMERS moved that tho reply be read. Mr. STUART seconded the motion, which being agced to, he read as follows : — " Provincial Council Chambers, " February, 1861 "Sir, — Wc havo received with interest your Honor's address, and regret that His Excellency has seen fit to disallow the AppropriationOrdinance, 1863, which provided for the expenditure of the current year. " It is to be very greatly regretted that the . expenditure (namely — upon roads) should' have so far exceeded the estimated revenue ; we trust, however, that the anticipated Land Sales may meet, in a great measure, the exigencies of the expenditure for the remainder of the financial year. " The Loan Ordinance, to provide funds for replacing the sums hitherto advanced by the banks for the expenditure already incurred, shall have our careful attention. The Loan Ordinanco, to provide for the cost of extensions of the Bluff Harbor and Invercargill railway, shall meet with the same consideration. *' We notice that your Honor reports the passing of tlie New Land Ae( for Southland at the last sitting of the General Assembly. We regret, however, that in violation of the principle — that legislation on this most important matter should not take place unless on the recommendation of the Provincial Councils, the Assembly thought proper to pass the Act iu its present shape. " We greatly regret that the members for Soutliland were unsuccessful in obtaining a representation in the General Assembly adequate to the wants of this important Province, but trust that at the next session their efforts may prove successful. " Wo also regret the appearance of pleuropneumonia witlun the limits of the Province, and will give, this matter tlie earnest consideration it needs. " The Town Board Loan Bill will have the necessary attention. " Your Honor meets the Council without an Executive. " Of course we are aware ofthe causes which have led immediately to the resignation ofthe late Executive, and to the resolution come to by the gentlemen whose names are signed to the note laid before you on your return from Auckland. " Your Honor's reply to that note we have attentively considered, but can gather from itno reasons for altering our opinion as expressed in that note. "You correctly interpret the moaning of that note when you state that substantially it amounts to an aflirmation that the administrative powers of the Superintendent are derived from the legislation of the Provincial . Council, anl that consequently they can be exercised only under the conditions prescribed by the Ordinance referred to. " Your Honor simply states ' that it appears such an opinion is erroneous,' but your memorandum docs nbtr-makc it appear. " Your Honor's reply, containing nothing further than a simple expression of an opinion contrary to ours, calls for no detailed remark further than we are not aware what the various powers are whieh you state are vested iu the Superintendent by the Constitution Act, (further than the power, in conjunction with the Council, of making Ordinauces). " As regards administration, the Constitution Aet is silent. That matter, as will be seen by reference to Sir John Pakington's despatch accompanying the Act, was intended to be left to the Superintendent and Council to regulate by Ordinance. " This was done by the Provincial Government Ordinance, to which your Honor was a party. '•* That Ordinance provides for the Administration of the Provincial Executive Government by the Superintendent, ' who shall act with the advice and consent of an Executive Council.' (Clause 2.) ' : Now, the Superintendent and first Council coidd not have done otherwise than they did in inaugurating a responsible form of government by that Ordinance, for it is inherent in the i*iature of representative institutions that the dominant party in- the people's assembly should superintend the administration of the laws they make. "As regards delegated powers and the other occasional powers you allude to, we may remark that, while of course the General Assembly can authorise the Governor to delegate a power to a Superintendent unless, at the same time it is distinctly stated that it is to be exercised without the advice and consent of an Executive, there is nothing to hinder the Superintendent and Provincial Council to agree between themselves, that whenever he does exercise this delegated power, he shall first take the advice and consent of liis Executive. This agreement, we think, was made when your Honor assented to the Provincial Government Ordinance. " The powers which you assume can be exercised by the Superintendent independently of an Executive admitting that they can , be so exercised, are, from your own showing — exI ccptions, and the suggestion of them implies the admission of the rule to the contrary, " Whatever responsibility your Honor had previous to the passing of the Provincial Government Ordinance, that Ordinance removed from you and placed on tho shoulders of your Executive. "An- Executive if it is to have the responsibility, must also have the control. . "if the Superintendent will not carry out tho measures of the Executive, that Executive must resign, and he must get another — if he cannot form another, as it is. very certain he cannot act without oiie, ho must appeal to the people. • " " I'liat is the view which wo take of the powers "'■ .and duties of Superintendent -and Executive, and will sufficiently explain the resignation of ,the late Executive, and pur re-solution-hot to take office iu a new one until your. Honor agrees with our opinion. ';''' "We iiavc to express ouj anxious"'willirig-nesß"to-proceed with the important business for which iwe have been , called, together, but as representatives ofthe people -of -this. Province; : . it is our duty to require first from yqiif Honor.

the distinct recognition of the principles and duties of responsible government;" : Mr. CHALMERS moved that the reply "be ■ received. Mr. STUART seconded the motionAgreed to. : . Mr, CHALMERS . moved : thai, tho House go into Committee tp discuss the reply.' > Mr. SCOTT seconded tho motion. .." * After some remarks from . several members, Mr. Chalmers withdrew his motion. ; THE 'StiKEBIXTEXDENT'S YIDDHESS. : Mi*. TILTON, in raying that the' address . bf His Honor the Superintendent* be taken into consideration, said he felt very diffident to say any thing; on, tho subject because he felt * that other -.members were bettor qualified to I deal with it, He, thought it desirable they ■ should hear the reply boforo going into this qiiejtionj and if h o should trouble them with any statements that, might appear tedious, he hoped they would attribute it to this— either , that ho wa3 jncapivhlo of treating it otherwise, or that tho nature of the subject compelled him,' to have reference to doctunonts which might appear tedious. Ho would nofc go on seriatim, through tho addross, but tako up moro particularly tlie memorandum, and in any remark ho woidd havo occasion to mako ho trusted ho would not givo expression to anything disrespectful to any gentleman who might hold the office of -Superintendent,* as ho intended it sololy and exclusively -to apply to tlio office itself. This ho wishod distinctly understood, and if ho' did ttttor anything, in the warmth and haste of tho moment, he hoped Mr. Speaker would reprove him, bocanso he thought that any gentleman who held the office of Superintendent should bo treated with every respect. With these remarks he would first note this great fact. What did they look upon as tho groat tendency of modern civilisation ? To give the people at largo an increase of power, aud recognise their resjionsibility. He looked upon this not as a tendency, but as a great law of nature, which nothing could resist. It was to that law tho improvement of modern society was due. Indeed, it did this thing-— distinctly to lift the great mass of mankind, invest that mass with increased power,' and recognise its rights of directly interfering in all 'the affairs of Grovernment. He held that as "a principle ; and he held farther, that the man who attempted to fall back on individual, or irresponsible government, distinctly ignored the tendency of modern civil::::!''' mi, and was fighting over again the battle which lic-Y been fought many a time before. In referring fo siich laws as the Provincial Council Ordinance, the Constitution Act, and the laws of the General Assembly, they would see they must be treated iu a diflerent way. Wliatevcr power the Superintendent might hold by virtue of the Constitution Aet, or from the General Assembly, they could not interfere with. But what could they do ? He would endeavor to show what was originally contemplated by the Imperial Legislation when it gave that Constitution, and in doing so. would refer to the documents they possessed in the correspondence of Sir George Grey, Earl Grey, and Sir John Pakingtou. Whenever they attempted to interpret any law, the proper mode of proceeding was to examine the mischief that law was intended to remedy, and so to interpret it as to remove the mischief. That was the principle he would apply in the various documents he might read. First, Sir George Grey distinctly stated, thatthe arrangements he wished to make were of sueh a nature that they would be in accordance with Parliamentary usages. He said, " but I thought it- rather my duty to act so far as the circumstances oi* iho country would permit, in perfect harmony with the system Parliament would pursue." Sir George thou considers it notdesirablc that Governors shoidd appoint an Executive, because, he rightly argued, the time must come when ihey must organise more liberal institutions, and he abandoned tlie idea of a paid Executive, appointed, by the Governor. (Mr. Tarlton here quoted at length from Sir Geo. Grey's letters on the Constitution Act in support of tho above, aud pointing; out that the Executive was to be elected by Ilk; Council.) Mr. Tarlton continued — That was what Sir George recommended the Imperial Government to do, so that when they came to read the clause iu the Constitution Act, they would understand the meaning of theso words. (Auother clause quoted showed the nature of the Superintendent's powers, and that he coidd not actwithout an Executive.) Tliat was all he (Mr. Tarlton) had to quote from Sir George Grey's letters, and the Council would see this iu them. For at all to be in accordance with parliamentary forms, and particularly in accordance with the views ofthe Home Government, and also that it was thought more desirable that the Executive should be appointed by tho Provincial Council than appointed by the House of Assembly and paid. It was also distinctly declared that the Provincial Council arc to regulate the action of the Executive and Superintendent. After qifoting Sir John Pakington, he said they would see whether the Provincial Council was to act with tho authority of the Superintendent, or not, because what is stated in that Act, they must abide by. What ! did not clause 18 say that the Provincial Council had power to make all laws such as are not repugnant to the laws of England, and others which were referred to. But it seems they shall have fidl and ample authority to regulate the peace and good order of the plaee in which they live. The Provincial Government Ordinance ~No. 3 says that the Executive shall be vested in the Superintendent. This was a positive relinquishment of power. Every reader of history would bear in mind that in Greece individuals governed alone. Sometimes they were good men, and sometimes they were bad men, but * they were alway called tyrants. That did not mean what we attach to the word ; it simply meant, governed by one man ; but in the i course of two thousand j'ears the word had ! changed its signification, and now what did it mean? Could they say, "he is a good j tyrant?" It would be a contradiction of terms. It has grown into the -present meaning because the experience of the world had learned this — that it was not desirable to entrust uncontrolled power to one individual. The two cases were scarcely parallel, but they agreed upon an appointed Executive simply because of the belief in tho breast of every Briton that it was not desirable one man should have all the power. Why ? Because they knew it was liable to abuse — because it; might become tyranny, and because it might be used for either good or evil purposes. Because no man, though he possessed the wisdom of Solomon, was able to overlook tho world, or even be in two different parts of a Province ; because of a belief in the old proverb — not that one head was better than two, but that two heads were better than one. So he always felt that several individuals should fake counsel together, and so tho Ordinance went on to say that the Executiveshallconsistof not less than three nor more than five members. After drawing attention to the words used in fie Constitution Act, in reference to the office cf Superintendent, Mr. Tarlton - continued — In thoir Ordinance it is said it shall be lawful for him to act only with the advice and consent of the Executive Council. What did that mean except that His Honor could do nothing against their advico or without thoir consent? Ho asked if the Superintendent could make any now law for the Province, or if the Council refused to pass a law could he make it? and he had as' much right to pass a law as act without his Executive, By propoar ing this measure, by recommending _ thismcasure,.he was bound to carry out its provisions—that lio wonld clo nothing except by advice of liis Executive, y ■■■But this was 'what he. said hi the memorandum:— ; - ,( Am I -to be controlled in, thopowors vested hi. mo hy the Imperial .Governmen't.and jGI-eneral Assembly ?" 'Tfieiy -coiild "not do so,' but; they could "do what

the reply said.; They might have no 'right to^ control those powe'i'3, bitt; nevertheless^ according to this Ordinance, ho was bound to ; consult* them and.; do nothing without: their consent. He (Mr. Tarlton) gloried that he was a Briton, and lived under a -Grovernment exercising such a thoughtful care and liberality in the most remote parts of the Empire. "I an a Roman," was a man's proudest boast in olden times, and they knew. Paul made the Governor tremble when he used the words. So we, in the present day, are Englishmen— and when he said Englishmen he meant an Irishman, Scotchman; Englishman, orany other man [Applause, which > • was ;■■ suppressed ;by tlie iSpeaker, in the gallery]--, might equally be proud of theright, when .in tho most distant,, parts of the world, his country defends' her children, wherever they may hfe, "and has left them to * embody in . their ■. ow-iy constitution what thoy have seen work so .well, at, home. ; She had not done what other countries had done— given thom a constitution. Y No, she recognised every one as a* man who could 1 recognise what was most suited for tho.Provineo wherein ho might be placed. * Therefore' sho heg&iii in the first place, by limiting, the ; powe? of tho Superintendent by an Executive -—not by giving him absolute,, authority.. To him thoro was open tho consultation of faithful friends— -not the declaration of a superior power. In such' a spirit was it to advise what was besfc for the .welfare of. the Province. And so the .. Act went on to say that-certain offices should bo appointed 1 with' the'oohsont of the Executive. The • Superintendent had the power of dismissed, but not of appointment 5 that could not be done, unless by consent of at, least four men. After some farther remarks he, concluded by saying if the Superintendent, coidd not work harmonionsly with any one ; Executive, he must dismiss the members and find others. . - Mr. WILSOjST seconded the motion. He had nothing to say except endorse the statements made to the House by the hon. mem-' bers who had spoken. "While thousands and tens of thousands were fighting in ; Europe and America, for the privileges winch; they enjoyed, it ought to be their first care to preserve them. They shoidd allow iro individual or interest to deprive them of thos6 privileges. It had been considered by some people that they were getting into a strangefix, but he thought the thanks of the Council and Province were due to the Executive Council for resigning, and he would exact a pledge from them not to accept office again unless the Superintendent promised to act by •,'hoir advice and counsel. Tbe motion was then put and carried nem. con. Mr. CALDER* remarked that the memorandum bad received a luniinous description, but several points in the address had been overlooked, and he would briefly refer -to one or two of them. First, there was the liability, of £100,000, which was very large for a small place like this, and larger than in any of the past years. It would be apparent that a debt of £100,000 now bore a very different aspect from that debt, supposing the Province had been in tlie same state some six or seven months ap-o. In his opinion the situation of the Province. w;is entirely altered, and only to quote a simple remark that fell from a friend of bis in speaking ofthe state of the Province, he just said that before long one-half of the population would have possession of Her .Majesty's gaol. So far then he (Mr. Calder) looked on the liability of £100,000 as a very serious matter. It was proposed to borrow this £100,000 on security of the land, and it was very satisfactory fo know that with this security they could get .tlie money, to pay off what is a just debt owing by the Province, and no other way of settling it than tliat proposed in the address. As he agreed entirely with the view His Honor took of it, he only regretted tlieir circumstances were such as not to give a- more favorable turn to the whole affair. But, further on it was stated that sueh public works as roads, which entail this large outlay, were fairly chargeable on the land fund. "Necessity required- it ; but he thought the purely legitimate end of the land fund was to secure population. This was the principle carried into effect hi all the Colonies in this hemisphere, viz., the introduction of population, and he found only the small sum of £1000 for emigration on the Estimat es. Another question was the increased sum for the Bluff Railway. It was a pity they should bo called on for a further sum for the completion of a work, which for want of population would prove very unsuccessful. It was his opinion that the portion of the railway uot yet commenced should be stopped before larger sums were spent on it, till they knew whether the state of the Province would warrant it. If the works and contracts already going on amounted only to a small sum, he thought it would be wisdom on the part of the Council to stop short. Intimately connected with the trade of- the Prpvince, and feeling its pulse in that respect, it appeared to him absolutely necessary that the expenditure should be brought down to the very lowest degree, save for what was absolutely necessary. Any work for a prospective trade he would set aside till they had some ground, something to show that the trade would spring up. If the trade of the Province decreased as it had done during tlie last few months, he was afraid that when the railways were constructed thore would be very very little traffic for them. lie would much rather, therefore—; if ir coidd be called shame— bear the shame". .of; stopping the works commenced. In regard to the Land Aet, touched upon by His Honor, he was inclined to believe that what His Honor stated was the case. He thought, however, the Bill should have been withdrawn altogether, or sent back. That was not done. It was said that the members from Southland had recommended that advance. Who were the members from Southland? Without stretching the interpretation, he thought it could be only Dr. Menzies, and the way he had acted was altogether objectionable. The Doctor also proposed to give them three additional members, and an increase of nine to Otago. This was certainly a very comprehensive view, to give such an increase to a neighboring and rival Province. He heartily rejoiced the Bill was set aside. He contended for more members in the Assembly, otherwise in the war of interests, Southland would have but a poor chance. So long as their representation was small, so loug would their interests suffer. After noticing other points in the address, he fully concurred in what the previous speakers had said on the memorandum. Mr. CHALMERS would say a few words on tho hon. members remarks, not in a contradictory spirit, but from the way Mr. Calder had put it about the Loan, people outside, and even the public inside, would not clearly understand it. It was provided for by an Act of the Ocncral Assembly, that before loans could be contracted in future, a tract of land should be set aside, equal in value to the loan raised. There was nothing in the Acfc that obliged them to sell that land ; so soon as it was set aside. When it was surveyed, then the money must go to the reduction' of the liability. " But if the revenues of the Province was in such a state that they could see their way clearly to defer expenditure thercwas.no Act obliging them to do the contrary. If Government ..wished, to raise money; and saw no other way but by the sale of- land, thoy anay survey and .; sell it, reduce tbe loan, and thou say they had dono so to a certain amount. Ho quite ',. 'agreed with the .remarks ; about emigration- Regarding the ,p.ebciitures'.Yßill, it was a. mistake made by a great many people, that Debentures" burdened the present, generation. It did nothing of tho kind Y Thoy left *to another generation tho paying off o f the Debentures by , distributing themY'ovorl -thirty, forty, or sixty years, the only burden at present being the interest and sinking fund. The stopping, of " yrorks which ( were paid for out of a revenue raised ky -Be- '-

beritur'es; whilst 1 relieving them only from the annual inieresty would - have a Very dainaging effect on the interests of the Province, j It was not the shame, but the commercial repute of. the. place they should consider. To stop works whicli every man aeknowled to be of great importance— -though 1 hbw soon theymight pay, people differed— woidd -not do ; for his own part he went with those who had experience at/ homo . and elsewhere, that, it always created traffic. He believed that wherever a railway was made it woiild ; make a population* there. Ylf they made fifty . miles up ; into the countiy,* what was the effect ?; .The ; farmer, at the end of the line coidd; send,. his produce, to market easier, perhaps, than' the , oiie onlythree miles feom town, ahd as these facilitieswere seen, a 'population' would settle along the line. - It was rather 'a small illustration, -hut ;he had often seen . .waggon . loads of cabbages coming by rail from London, to Brighton,;, though there were; plenty of market gar dens round.the latterpla'ce." - If they stopped these'; works therefore^ they would reap no advantage; - except that they might sbve the interest .in the ■ sinking fund, though they would: hardly save that either, because a portion of tlie; -•iand might be soid to redeem that .amount' ' The ' -Roads ; they must go on with. ; The only matter for regret was the vast sums of money, ■that had been thrown away ■ like ; water on ; them. That had been tho; experience of eyery colony in New Zealand, and would be the case till the wholo \vks merged in ono G-ehera! Grovernment. No single Province had thefunds to make a good permanent road, and that was one reason why he always advocated, railways. , The Engineer stated that one portion of the North Road would cost £200 per mile for the next eight miles. In making that road he (Mr. Chalmers) was afraid to say how much money had gone out of sight, so if: they, could make; a railway it was much the cheapest. . He; quite agreed with tho hoii. member as to the Waste Lands Act, thougli'lie might differ with him as to the price. Mr. WILSON, in a few remarks, charac*"-"* terised '. the Waste La,nd Act 'as ■ tho most injudicious ever perpetrated. It would have jthe effect of frightening away population, and ; where were the railways with no population ? Mr... TARLTON, as mover , of the motion, would give a few words in reply, simply 'noticing one particular point. It was all very weir for a gentleman 'to be talking of the j pleasures of debt, but he felt no such sensa- ! tions. If he died, he thougt there would be | found written on his heart, the utmost horror against increasing the expenditure beyond the means. What troubled him. was, not simply 1 that a portion of the Province had been mortgaged for the purpose of bringing in money, but that men should stand up and propose to mortgage more. The proper course was to curtail the expenditure to the revenue. He said last session, that men would \ist be deluded with such statements as were rqad. "YP.eople understood, well, the more they borrowed, Ahs. nearer bankruptcy they were. Therefore, when he iQund that they were to borrow £100,000,— mortgage- fer. it ; £40,000, — mortgage for it; £25,000, — mortgage* for it ; aud an item £28,000, which mystified him; he could not understand it, unless it was that because they were in debt already, they must go on. Alas, he said, if that be the case, they were going down au incline and would soon get to the bottom. He did uot believe in tho prosperity of tliis. or any Province, when debt and difficulty went on increasing at such a rate. Mr. CHALMERS moved that, the House go into Committee on His Honor's Address. Mr. SCOTT seconded the motion. Mr. TARLTON moved that the House adjourn, as there was only the M.S. copy of j the reply. It was a subject the members should have time to think over. Mr. CHALMERS withdrew his motion, and moved that the reply be printed. Mr. WILSON seconded the motion, wliich was agreed to. It Avas arranged that Messrs Cowan and M'Kay's motions be brought upon Monday forenoon, and the consideration of the Address j, in the evening. The House then adjourned thl Monday forenoon.