THE BOROUGH ENGINEER.

Poverty Bay Standard, Volume I, Issue 196, 30 July 1884, Page 2

THE BOROUGH ENGINEER.

THE VALUATION QUESTION. Before Cr. Joyce’s motion with regard to the above came on last night, Cr. Townley said— I noticed in to-night’s Telephone, a statement with reference to the valuation question, Stating that the Engineer valued Messrs. Common, Shelton & Co’s, property at so much. I don’t know whether it is Cr. Joyce’s intention to bring on his resolution or not, but if so, I think that now would be the right time to put the question to the Engineer himself as to what his valuation was, and let him simply state it. A certain statement has got into a paper, therefore the Council are entitled to hear from the Engineer himself and clear the matter up. If the Council have no objection and approve of such a step, I would suggest that His Worship put the question to the Engineer, as to the value he set. upon the property. This, I think, would be the right time to put it, before the notice of motion comes on, but I merely state it more to provoke this question than anything else.

Cr. Kenny—l have not seen it. Will Cr. Townley read the paragraph ? Cr. Townley—l have not got it with me. It was in to-night’s Telephone.

Cr. Joyce—l have not seen the article, but I don’t see what it has to do with my motion, or with what is done and passed by, I, for one, suggested that the Engineer should inform me before at the Harbor Board meeting, what his valuation was. but I got no information, What is the difference whether he tells us his valuation now or not ? I don’t see what effect it can have because, as I say the mischief is already done, Of course I have not the slightest objection to the Engineer stating his valuation now, but it cannot affect his case.

Cr. Smith—This is the paragraph appearing in to-night’s Telephone “As a matter of fact, we have it on the most reliable authority that the Engineer’s valuation of Messrs. Common & Co.’s premises was most fair and equitable—viz., £750, and that the great discrepancy lies between the other two.” I intended to refer to this myself when Cr Joyce’s motion came on. Cr. Joyce says that it is too late now, and what is the use of bringing it on, but I say there are two parties to this question, and who must be cleared. It is currently reported that the Engineer’s valuation is £1,200, what the other was, I don’t know, and it is only fair to him (the Engineer), if people are putting incorrect statements about, that he should b 6 allowed an opportunity of stating personally his real valuation. It is scarcely fair that he should have to bear this street-corner talk, when as a matter of fact he is perfectly innocent of any wrong. Cr. Joyce—Whose fault is it ? Let him state that.

Cr. Smith—l wish you would not interrupt me, I don’t interrupt you when you speak. This is a matter to be taken into grave consideration. I merely say that it is currently reported that his valuation was £1,200. But I have more respect for the capacity and ability of that gentleman, than to think that he ever put such a value on the buildings, and if that is untrue he ought to be able to make a statement in self justification.

Cr. Joyce—l don’t object to the Engineer stating his valuation, but at the same time I consider that Councillors should look to the ratepayers before they look to any street corner reports in reference to the Engineer, or overseer, or anyone else connected with the Council. Those reports have nothing to do with this Council. No matter whose reputation is at stake you should look to the interests of the men whom you serve first. Cr. Smith—l rise to a point of order. Cr. Joyce—l am in order sir. I will not sit down.

The Chairman—l shall rule you out of order.

Cr- Joyce—Will you debar me from speaking ? The Chairman—The proposition before the Council is, “ That the Engineer shall be requested to state the amount of the valuation made on Messrs. Common, Shelton <t Go’s, buildings.” That is proposed by Cr. Townley and seconded by Cr. Tutchen. Now you can speak to that proposition. Cr. Joyce—l again say I have no objection whatever, to the question being put, but I want to reiterate that it has nothing to do with this Council.

The proposition was then put and carried. The Chairman (addressing the Engineer— Of course you can decline to answer the question if you like, as it is a matter of valuation and not arbitration.

The Engineer—Well, your worship, I don’t remember Cr. Joyce asking me what my valuation was, as he says he did, but if he had done so I don’t think I should have told him, because I imagined at that time, that I should have first to consult the other valuer before I revealed what my valuation was. I have now done that, and have got the consent to tell it, it was £BOO.

Cr. Tutchen—To begin with, I scarcely see that this belongs to the Borough Council—it is a Harbor Board question—(laughter) —but at any rate, since the Engineer’s statement I feel more satisfied, and have now a different opinion of the matter than previously. If I had to value that property myself it would bo very little under or above LBOO. Therefore I now think the Engineer quite clear of all blame, and it is the others that made the big mistake, and we should not have got people in the matter who knew nothing whatever about valuing. The ratepayers will lose by this because no one will bid for the property. Cr. Brown—l don’t know whether I am in order or not, but I am one of the unfortunate absentees of which so much was said at the last meeting of the Harbor Board. My absence was unavoidable, but if I had been present I should have voted against the motion, because I don’t think the Engineer guilty of anything wrong, for it might only have been an error of judgment. COUNCILLOR JOYCE’S MOTION. Cr. Joyce’s notice of motion, “ That owing to the dissatisfaction at present existing in reference to valuations, this Council request the Engineer and Valuator to resign,” now came on for discussion.

Cr. Joyce —ln bringing forward this motion, as I have already stated, I do not do so for any animus or ill-will towards the Engineer, but I consider I am doing my duty in bringing it on. Whatever the Engineer’s motive may be in keeping back what his valuation was until to-night I am not aware of, but there is evidence to show that his actions have been anything but of an open and straightforward character. He sent a closed letter here of the valuation made by himself and the other gentleman. The envelope was closed, and his price, as per advice, I suppose, written on the outside of it, which showed plainly that he had placed no faith in the Council or Board, or he would not have done so, as it is an unusual proceeding for a public servant to do such a thing to a public body. A number of you gentlemen who were present at that time expressed your disapproval of such a proceeding in strong words, and in fact censured him to a great extent. The Chairman said it was an insult to the Board, and I said it was a piece of sharp practice, and I am still of the same opinion. If the Engineer wished to make known the amount of his valuation at that time, why did he not do so fearlessly? what did he have to be frightened of ? Nothing that I see. There was nobody going to criticise it, with the exception of the enormously high value placed on it by the others. There is one thing feasible, and as plain as the nose on my face, that there has been a wrong committed on the ratepayers, and if the Engineer had no part in it, why did he stand by and see it perpetrated ? Any person would not see a wrong done to his master if he is conscientious in his duty. He should have turned round and chucked up the valuation and said he would have nothing to do with the matter. His stating that his valuation was £BOO does not exonerate him, though I don’t wish to imply anything, but the thing is quite clear enough that this wrong has been committed and the sufferers are the ratepayers. Would any upright servant stand by and see his master being defrauded ? I say, no, and the fact of his telling us his valuation only dies the thing worse, and shows his deep cunningness. I don’t speak with animous, but with determination, and what I think is true and correct. What the Engineer should have done was to point out to the Board the swindle that was being worked on them, but he did not, and therefore, I have great pleasure in moving my motion. The Chairman—At the last meeting of the Harbor Board this discussion was perfectly in order, because it was a valuation undertaken on behalf of the Board, and he gets £5O a year for it. The motion then was thrown out, and this stands in the Borough Council, and the Engineer has not committed any dissatisfaction with regard to it, therefore. it is really a question whether this motion is in order or not. Had this motion been carried at the Harbor Board meeting, the Engineer would have resigned. I just point this out, though I don’t wish to stop the discussion.

Cr. Joyce—l uphold that anything is in >rder as long as it is put in a respectful nanner.

Cr. Tutchen—l cannot see how it can be ’one on with and be considered in order, vhen there is really no charge against the Engineer, as Engineer and Valuator to the Borough Council.

Cr. Hepburn—l shall second the motion on he grounds that employing a lawyer (Mr. \ T olan) as umpire, a man who really knows lothing about valuations was wrong, and hould not have been done. That is all I lave to say on the matter.

Cr. Kenny—l had the misfortune of not being here when this question was discussed before the Harbor Board. I never imagined there would be a quorum on that night owing

to the inclement weather, and the general election going on at the same time, and that was why I did not think it worth while coming in. I should like now to express my views on this subject, quite apart from the demand that has now been made as to the actual amount of the valuations. I consider that the Engineer was absolutely free from all blame. The charges against him are two fold—first of all that ha sent in an envelope with the fees marked on the outside of it, and secondly that some of the councillors consider or think that the valuation was an excessive one. As to the first point, with regard to the fees on envelope, the Engineer explained that fully to this Board, and entirely disclaimed any intention of stealing a march on the Board or of insulting it; for what could he gain by so doing ? Such a charge as that is childish. He said he acted on advice and understood that that was the usual practice. The fees did not represent his own only, but those of the other valuator and the umpire also. After that a discussion arose as to the fees charged by the Engineer, who then said he had made an overcharge, and he could not well, having made the charge, reduce it. because that would be as much as to say that it was not a

right charge, but he refused to make any charge at all. I submit, that, in regard to the sending of that envelope, there is nothing to blame the Engineer with. Then we come to the valuation. Suppose we did not know what the valuation was, who would be to

blame ? The umpire clearly enough, and he is the individual and no one else who is to blame, and it is perfectly ridiculous to dream of calling the Engineer to account for it. Now we know what the valuation really was. The Engineer from a point of honor considered that he was not at liberty to divulge the valuation he had arrived at, finding however, that false reports were being circulated about the town at street-corners, he then says, “Well, I consider to justify my reputation, I must now tell the Board, if they are willing to hear me, what my real valuation was,” and he tells us it is £BOO. Therefore it seems that on no grounds whatever the Engineer is to be blamed. I myself think the reason why the Engineer nominated Mr. Nolan as umpire was because he was already an officer of the Council and if he (Mr. Nolan) had any bias at all it would be in favor of the Council, and Mr. Shelton told me that if he had known that Mr. Nolan was to be umpire, he should have strongly objected to it. Members—Oh loh I Aha I aha I Laughter. • Cr. Kenny—l assume that Mr. Shelton was speaking the truth, and I think myself the Engineer cannot fairly be held responsible for assenting to the appointment of Mr. Nolan. As to the duties of the Engineer, I have never heard a word of complaint against him, and he has done his duties admirably, and if the Board allows such trumpery charges of this kind to be brought against this officer, in the way in which this one has been brought, they will find it extremely difficult to get a competent man to serve them. We have in the present Engineer a man of exceptional experience and acquirements, and we are most fortunate to obtain the services of a professional man of his calibre, and but for his being independent we would not have obtained his services for such a small remuneration as L 250.

Cr. Joyce—So much the better. Cr. Tutchen—l wish to be called a turncoat. Not that any one word of Cr. Kenny’s has turned me, but after the Engineer’s statement in reference to his valuation, and I am now quite convinced that he is clear of the charges against him. I can clearly see that he has been put up to this, and there is some one else we ought to get rid of. Cr. Hepburn—The umpire. Cr. Tutchen—Yes the umpire, and the less we have to do with him the better.

Cr. Joyce—You should have thought ol that before.

Cr. Tutchen—l did not know of it before. It was right into Shelton’s hands to have Mr. Nolan as umpire. I remember at the Council when the Common and Co., question was being discussed, Captain Chrisp said in answer to me, that Mr. Nolan had no interest in Common, Shelton and Co., and was not conducting any of their cases. But what did we find at the very next Supreme Court sittings, we found that Mr. Nolan was interested with them, and was conducting two cases for them.

Cr. Joyce—That is a common thing with Chrisp. Cr. Lewis—l am now more satisfied after hearing the Engineer’s statement in voting against the proposition than I was before. There was certainly an oversight in the umpire being appointed, and the Engineer should not have agreed to him. I may say this—that the umpire told me secretly that the Engineer’s valuation was L 1,200, and the other was L 1,750. He told me that secretly, and I kept it, but now I find he has told another gentleman who is in the room and can prove what I say; therefore his doing that I think gives me liberty to make use of the information. Now we find he is wrong, for the Engineer says he valued it at LBOO. Cr. Smith—l don't wish to say much. At the last Harbor Board - meeting I refused to vote on this question as there were only a few present. The general impression appears to be that I was frightened to vote. That is not the case. The only point I think the Engineer failed in was in agreeing to the appointment of Mr. Nolan as umpire. As far as his position as Engineer for the Borough Council is concerned, nothing has ever come before us, which would justify us in passing the slightest censure on him, and I shall certainly vote against the motion. The Chairman—l think the action of the Engineer is highly commendable, in submitting to all this discussion, without even taking offence or threatening to resign, but patiently awaiting the result, trusting that all would be right in the end, His action is strongly to be recommended in not divulging his valuation on the property. I very much sympathise with the Engineer for the way in which he has acted, for we have no complaints to make against him. With regard to the valuation itself, the umpire being appointed, the Engineer could not withdraw. His valuation was £BOO, and the other was £1,600 odd, and he (the umpire) struck the medium, and being an impartial umpire he gave it as £1,200. Thus the Engineer has not, in any sense, wronged us. Councillors—Hear, hear, Cr. Joyce—No, no. Cr. Townley—l think a good deal of this bungling lias occurred through Cr. Joyce’s motion, and now he is ashamed of it. Cr. Joyce—lndeed, Sir, I am not ashamed of it, and I still stick to it.

Cr. Townley—You proposed, and backed up, that a valuator shold be appointed, and an umpire to decide between the two.

Cr. Joyce—The umpire should not be ap pointed until the valuations were made.

Cr. Townley—Cr. Joyce says the Enginee; should have stated his valuation before h( was asked.

Cr. Joyce—He was asked. I asked him. Cr. Townley—He was never asked. Hi says so.

Cr. Joyce—l say I did ask him, and is noi my word as good as his.

Cr. Townley—No, because in the excitement of debate you don’t know what yot

say. Cr. Joyce—l never get excited, and I know what I said. I only speak with determination, and don’t get excited. Cr. Townley—lt has gone forth to the public that the Board have to pay L 1,275 foi this property. Numbers of people think that is the case on reading the excited debater which take place here, when really we have not to pay a shilling fur it. Cr. Joyce—Yes wo have. Cr. Townley—Wo will have to pay considerably more for deeds, conditions of sale, etc., which might have been avoided, but we have nothing whatever to pay for this property. If these buildings were not on the foreshore the property would not be so valuable, and we would not be able to lease it.

Cr. Joyce then replied to the remarks of the various speakers, and wound up by attacking Mr. Kenny. Mr. Kenny says the charge is a trumpery one, and I consider, Cr. Kenny, that it is a very serious one.

Cr. Kenny—l object to being talked at by Cr. Joyce. I ask you, sir, to rule him out ol

Cr. Joyce—l am not out of order. I can address you if I like. The Chairman—You should not turn round and speak at Councillors, but keep your front to me.

Cr. Joyce—Well, sir, I will turn my front to you, and I hope I have got front enough to do it. This is not a trumpery charge, but a matter, as I have often repeated, which greatly affects the ratepayers to the amount

of hundreds of pounds. With regard to Cr. Lewis’s remarks that the umpire told him that the Engineer’s valuation was £1,200, and the Engineer now says it was £BOO,

which aie we to believe ? For the piesent I will take Cr. Lewis’ word, because the Engineer had nothing to be frightened of and should have told us long ago. Further discussion took place of an entirely unimportant nature, after which the Chair* man put the motion. Councillors Joyce and Hepburn voting foi*j and the rest against it. The Chairman declared it lost. Notice of Motion. The Chairman—l will table the following notice of motion “ That the conditions of the services of the Engineer to the Borough Council be amended, s<y as to be clearly distinct from any conditions of agreement of the Harbor Board.”