Deputation to the Hon. Mr. Rolleston.

Poverty Bay Standard, Volume X, Issue 1043, 2 March 1882, Page 2

Deputation to the Hon. Mr. Rolleston.

(Continued from our Last Issue.) As stated in our last issue, the deputation to the Hon. Mr Rolleston, the Minister of Lands, on Monday last, touched upon various other matters to which we could not allude, owing to the pressure on our columns, but we now append the remainder of the proceedings. Waste Lands. Mr J. AV. Johnson: IJwould like to ask you whether the head office for the Waste Lands of the district could be held in Gisborne ? Hon. Mr Rolleston : That is coming to a matter in my own department, and I shall be very happy to discuss the matter fully. What particular benefit do you suppose would accrue by a sitting of the Waste Lands Board here, that cannot be had now? Mr J. AY. Johnson: I imagine by having the head office here — Hon. Mr Rolleston : For what district ? For this district ? Mr J. AV. Johnson : Forthe County of Cook. There are about 700,000 acres of good land. Hon. Mr Rolleston : Scarcely that ; there are about 400,000. As far as I can understand there are some 30,000 acres more. Mr J. AV. Johnson : We would want intending settlers to see the land, and to be here on the spot. As it is the intending buyers must first come here, and then go to Napier er Auckland to the sales. Hon Mr Ttolleston : In the first place 1 have had occasion to refer to this matter this morning with the Sur-veyor-General, who has had it under his consideration. In every centre of population there are offices where the necessary information can be obtained. You can get supplied with maps; the

intending buyers can go and see the lauds, and in this way the sales of land can be conducted. These three things are done at the present time. I have thought the matter over ft good deal. You have local bodies, your County Council and Borough Council, and they can constantly make known to the Government the opinion of the district as to the manner in which the lands should be dealt with. The Government is always willing to receive suggestions from men who are representative men in the district in which they reside, and members of public bodies. Ido not quite see what additional advantages there are to be seen in what you mention, when we Consider the limited quantity of land to be dealt with here. There is no great variety of lands. They are to be dealt with on certain principles. The lands are pretty fairly classified for agricultural oi - pastoral purposes, and the division is according to fie classification. The department is always amenable to public opinion, and willing to consult public convenience with respect to the subdivision and selling of these lands. I fail to see the object of having another office established here. A very considerable increase would be caused to the department. I may say that for my own part I will take care Mr McKerrow has every facility provided for the public for getting information with respect to the sale of Crown lands. The sale of lands will be conducted here. There is another point —I am glad this subject has come up ; I will endeavor to ensure that this district will bo represented on the Waste Lands Board when the question is finally settled. I did my best to bring about a change last year in the House, and to make the treatment of the Waste Land universal. At present the laws are obstructive to settlement. For some years I have been doing my best to get a change. I hope the desired change will be effected, and shall be very glad to hear what atty of the deputation may have to say on the subject. Ido not say that I am not open to conviction. We are quite willing to receive suggestions from constituted bodies in the district as to what is to be done.

Mr Tutchen said that great injustice was done to the district in not having the Waste Lauds Board here. Mr Tutchen pointed out that in some instances the valuation placed upon Crown lands submitted for sale was absurdly high, and instanced one of the Patutahi sections. He also spoke of the urgent necessity of a Deeds Registry Office being established here.

Hon. Mr Rolleston said that it wns a great mistake having the lands administered by persons who in the main had no local knowledge of them. The proposal he. submitted to Parliament last year if carried would have provided for the representation of this district on the Napier Board. The desire of the Government was to bring this district which naturally laid together in communication with a Board that would have local knowledge of this part of the country. That he thought would meet the question fairly. AVith regard to establishing a fresh department here that was to be looked at from the score of economy. It was a question whether transastions at the present time would justify the Govnient in the expenditure necessary. Referring to Mr Tutchen’s remarks as to the great cost persons were put to for legal agency and other charges through having to employ solicitors here, and in Napier in connection with the Deeds Registry Office, and that if an office were here people could transact their own business without the aid of lawyers, Mr Rolleston said according to his own experience it was only a few persons immediately in the vicinity of the town who did their own business at the Deeds Registry Office. Country people invariably employed a solicitor. For his own part he thought in important land transactions it was better to employ professional men. In reference to the hurrying on of sales of public lands, Mr Rolleston said “ I lake it that your object would not be to force settlement, but rather for objective purposes and not for speculation. The land should pass into the hands of iotta Jlde persons desirous of settling upon it. When you talk about “pushing land sales” that really means that the lands are to go at a low price and into the hands of large buyers. If you studied what has been done by the Government you will see that our purposes have been consistently directed to promoting settlement by means of small holdings. For instance on the road to the Wairoa a village settlement will be formed where lands in small areas will be obtainable. I am very glad to have the opportunity of making these explanations. The people have not looked up these things for themselves. All these lands are being opened up by roads and shall bo thrown open for sale. The Waimata block will bo shortly thrown open for sale and will remain open until taken up. Mr Tutchen: Men could not live on 500 acres, or in some places on 1000 acres.

Mr McKerrow: Pastoral deferred payment land must bo sold by public auction. Hon. Mr Rolleston : We are dealing now with the question of the Waste Lands Board. Mr M. J. Gannon : The difficulty, sir, with regard to the Waste Lands Board seems to be this—that whether the lands of this district be adminis* tered from Auckland or from Napier, the district itself is practically deprived of any voice in the matter. As you

are aware, lands between here and the AVairoa, the road you lately travelled over, are by an arbitrary line separated—one side of the line being under the Hawkes Bay Board, and the other in the Auckland Waste Land Board district; and land of precisely the same quality is one side £1 an acre, and oa the otherss. This is surely an anomaly. Hon. Mr Rolleston: Yes it is. I endeavored to have that state of things altered in the House last session. Mr M. J. Gannon: AVhat the district really requires is a distinct AVaste Lands Board of its own, extending, if necessary, to Mohaka or Tangoiro on the Hawke’s Bay side, and to Whakatane on the other. This would include AVairoa County* and the large area of country acquired by the Government s between here and Opotiki, and along the East Coast. Also, an area of several hundreds of thousands ef acres of lands purchased by the Government. These lands, so far as this district is concerned, might just as well be under a board in AVellington as one in Napier or Auckland. Hon Mr. Rolleston : The intention last year was to have this district represented on the Board. , Mr M. J. Gannon: Yes; but whatever representation the district would have on the Napier or Auckland Board, our representatives would be always in the minority, and the interests of the two places would conflict ; besides, there are not many persons here who could really afford the time and cost of travelling backwards and forwards to attend sittings of the Board. Mr W. K. Chambers t I do not think that we should be in any better position if the Board sits in Napier or Auckland. The feeling of the public is that unless we have some direct voice in the matter, things will go on the same as they have the last ten. years. There is the Muhunga block. It was locked up for 10 years, and parts of it. not sold until last year. If a local board had had the management of the lands that state of things would not have been permitted to prevail. The land long ago Would have been thrown open for settlement, and by this time a thriving and industrious section of the community would have had their homes there. Hon. Mr Rolleston i With reference to the AVaimata and other blocks the construction of the roads will be put in hand as soon as possible. It is against my conception to sell the land until it is opened up by means of roads. It is against common sense to sell the land until there is access to it. To do otherwise would be simply to throw the land into the hands of large landspeculators, with whom I have no sympathy as against tho bona Jlde settler.

Native Land Court. Mr J. AV. Johnson: A great want the district labors under is that of a permanent sitting of the Native Land Court, There is sufficient work on hand to keep it going for the next four or five years. -A Record Office should be also established. Hon. Mr Rolleston: I will bring that matter under the notice of the Government. Mr Bryce, the Native Minister, has the subject under his consideration. It is a question that relates to the location of courts. Mr Al. J. Gannon : The great work here for the future for the Native Land Court is the subdivision of the lands. All past Courts that have sat here have been almost wholly engaged in ascertaining the tribes or sub-tribes to which large areas of land belong. The ownership is then so far ascertained that the land is awarded to ten, twenty, forty, and in some instances, to as many as two hundred persons. What is wanted, and what the Natives themselves require, is that each may know where his individual portion is situated. It would be a great thing for the district if the Native Land Court would take up specially the question of subdivision. If it were once gone into thoroughly I believe from my own experience in the matter, that it would not after all be found so difficult to deal with as often imagined. Hon. Mr Rolleston: The question was discussed largely last session, and would be again dealt with when Parliament met. PatVtahi Quabby. Mr J. AV. Johnson : Could you have the Patutahi Quarry handed over to the County Council. Hon. Mr Rolleston : Was not some application made to the Government on this subject ? Mr J. W. Johnson : Yes. Hon. Mr Rolleston: With what answer ? Mr J. W. Johnson: The answer was unfavorable. Hon. Mr Rolleston: Oh ; and now you want me to give a favorable one. The local bodies will be fairly dealt with in the matter.

Mr J. W. Johnson: The Council recognise that the metal from it would be required equally for the Borough as well as the County. Something might be made out of the place as an endowment if it were leased. AVith regard to the metal the Government fully understood that all the different local bodies in the County were entitled to receive the metal, in fact that the quarry was for the district generally. A considerable sum could be made out of the place for grazing purposes. Hon. Mr Rolleston (to Mr McKerrow) : There will be no difficulty in the Government approving of such a general arrangement as would meek with the wants of the local bodies ?

Mr MeKerrow : Not at all. Hon. Mr Rolleston: The Governtnent only wish to maintain this quarry in the interests of the local bodies. Mr MeKerrow: If the Council and other local bodies would make some arrangement as to fees chargeable. Hon. Mr Rolleston: The local bodies and those concerned should make some arrangement, and the Government would stand as arbiter. The Government will take care that the subject Will be dealt with in such a manner as to meet the interests of all the local ■bodies. Road Metal. Mr J. W. Johnson: Could the Government put anything on the estimates this year formetai. There are many roads in this district in need of metalling if the country is to be opened up. Hoti. Mr Rolleston : I think that you will find that the Government have spent a great deal of money on these roads. Mr J. W. Johnson : We wish to know whether the Government would assist the County to metal the road up the Patutahi flat. Although it would cost some little money it would enhance the value of the lands in the vicinity and contribute in a large degree to the enhancement in value of the land purchased by the Government between there and the W airoa. Hon. Mr Rolleston : Has there been mo public money spent upon that road? Mr Tutchen : The money that has been spent will be no good unless the Toad is made across the Patutahi flat. Hon. Mr Rolleston : So far as my department is concerned the duties lie more in what I term “ pioneer roading.” The question of the maintenance of these roads hereafter is one that in some form or another will Lave to be ■taken in had by the local bodies themselves. Ido not think that the General Assembly is prepared to go in for the ■maintenance of roads. Mr J. W. Johnson : This is for formations. Nothing at all has been spent upon this road yet. Hon. Mr Rolleston : I will take a note of this, and mention it to the Minister of Public Works. The question of main roads is one t hat will have to come on for consideration. The •district cannot of course expect exceptional treatment. His Worship the Mayor, Mr C. D. Bennett : I think that we are entitled to exceptional treatment. We got nothing out of the loan. * Hon. Mr Rolleston : I would like to ■explain what I mean by “exceptional -treatment.” I do not mean that a promise should be given for a particular piece of road, but that roads should be dealt with upon a general principle to be hereafter adopted. The question does not come within my department. Mr Common: Unless we can get -access to the Patutahi Quarry the ■roads cannot be metalled. It is only from there that good metal can be r ‘obtained. Hon. Mr Rolleston: Where does ’this metal come from that you now have on the roads? Mr'Common : Prom the riverbed. It is only a softof.ptya rock, that goes to powder after a little traffic has been 'upon it. Hon. Mr Rolleston: What would ■be the cost of metal ? Mr J. W. Johnson : About £3,000. Hun. Mr Rolleston : Is that without any tramway ? Mr J. W. Johnson : Yes ; the metal ■could not be got without a tramway "being laid down. Hon Mr Rolleston: What is the length of the rails you have got here ? His Worship: About 14 miles. Hon. Mr Rolleston: Would they Teach the quarry ? Mr W. K. Chambers : They are too light. Hon. Mr Rolleston: Are they too light to be serviceable ? Mr Chambers : They are not steel rails, they are only faced with steel. His Worship : I need hardly say, on account of the Borough, it would be a great service indeed if the tramway ■were laid. Mr M. J. Gannon : With reference To the tramway or railway to Patutahi, would the Government support a Bill next session for a special Act ? Hon. Mr Rolleston : Tramways can be already laid down without any special Act. Mr M. J. Gannon : Yes, but the tramways must be “flush’’with the ground, the same as the tramway that runs along Lambton Quay in Wellington. To lay such a tramway to Patutahi would entail an enormous cost; and to lay down a railway, I believe, according to the Public Works Act, special sanction of the Legislature must be first obtained. What I mean is that Parliament can give the necessary permission by passing an Act to lay down, if required, a railway to the Patutahi Quarry, running on one side ■of the main road. Mr MeKerrow to Mr Rolleston: Permission can be got to diminish the width of the main road for railway purposes. Hon. Mr Rolleston: I have taken a note of that point. Mr MeKerrow: The Government can do it. The Harbour. His Worship the Mayor, Mr C. D. Bennett: I believe it is the intention of the Government to go on with the new loan. I Hon. Mr Rolleston: On that I cannot give you any information. His Worship: The greatest inconvenience is inflicted on the district in consequence of the bad harbor accommodation. Live stock is a large export from this distoict. Only yesterday a

case occurred where 200 sheep were being sent away, they were placed on the small steamer and when out in the Bay and within a quarter of a mile of the large steamer, the latter steamed away. The sheep had to be re-lauded, and much delay and expense occurred. Could the Government see its way towards placing anything on the Estimates for harbor improvements. Hon. Mr Rolleston : Yes ; that is a question that will have to be considered generally. I do not for a moment ignore the great difficulties which you labor under. This concluded the business of the depulatien, who thanked the Hon. Minister for his courtesy and retired.