ARRITRATION OF THE OTAGO AND SOUTHLAND PUBLIC DEBT

Otago Daily Times, Issue 126, 11 April 1862, Page 5

ARRITRATION OF THE OTAGO AND SOUTHLAND PUBLIC DEBT

The Ccmmiss-:oi:cis-, iiessnv. F. Dillon Bell and T. B. Gillies, r.} pointed v.iu'er the Otago and Southland Public Eel;.'- -•>) pirpiiation Ait. ISO], to act as nrl.itititC'is, 1 eld il.cir fntt silting ycsltiday. Gwirp to the ncr.-airivr-lol'the Siij-frintn duit. of Southlard. Dr. Mcii7.ics, who v.ns expected, this Province- was unrepie-Fcntcd. t'n bthall of <.>ii'.jo. His Honor the SuperintciK'ent, Major Richardson ; the Commissioner of (rani Lmk's, Mr. Cutleu, and Mr. Howorih, the Provincial Solicitor, attended.

The pioceedings commenced at a few minutes nftei 11 o'clock: they ntsumed a conversational form.

Mr. Bell opened the discussion by saying, we have met now to see v.hnt is lot to be" done. In case of my receiving news compelling my departure Iron Dune'iin, it will be quite necessary for us t< prepare a case for the next trip of the Guulinii Z>t«r Mr. Gillies : If there are any points on which they require further information, they can have it from tin Otngo Government. Mr. Bell : I tec no objection to thnt course at all, unless the Provincial Government of Otago do. The Superintendent : I think it would rather prejudice the cause of this Province if we went into the case before we knew what position the Superintendent of Southland was {roing to take. Mr. Bell : The case is simply to lay a claim. Mr G:llics : Yes; to brii'g a claim, and then specify the grounds on which you purpose to substantiate "that claim; l(t Southland do the same, ant ycu have an opportunity of 1 ringing forward any evidence prair.st their claim or in favour of jour own, and they have the same. The fir.i.eiimeuc'.ent: Ar.d have they the last word '

Mr. Bell: Oh, no. Mr. Gillies: I should think there cannot be an\ last word in the matter.

|. Mr. Bell : Bv.twes.houlddealwiththccla'monbroac principles ; the Province is divided, and the debts aic to be apportioned ; say, we take half of the territorial debt, and one third of'the other debt ;on the principle that the Province of Southland, in its future development, is worth one thhd. Mr. Gillies : Just so. Mr. Cutten : We simply lay that case, and if they dispute that, why of course we will go into fuithei principles : but it is a pity that we have not seen one another on the question. Mr. Bell : 0, n vtiy great pity ! Mr. Cutten : For then we might have mutually agreed. • . Mr. Bell : Dr. Menzie-s does not even say that he is coining up The Superintendent : No : So I observe from hit letter. ...... Mr. Bell : But if you would consio'er it prejudicial to the interests which your Honor represents, to go into the matter now, peihaps Mr. Gillies will ccnsiderit; but, for my own port, when I see that then is lot the slightest disposition en the part of the arbitiators to cendnct the investigation on ttrict prinThe Superintendent: T simply state lhat when Mr. Gillies' side was opened, and they replied— Mr. Gillies (interrupting) : I ineiely said Ihr.t the re-ojening by one side or the other wculd not prejudice cither yaity. The Superintendent : Is it the intention of the arbitiators to tr.ke the evidence in writing'!

Mr. lJell: O yes, it must be in writing. The Superintendent: I would just say that if we make a .statement now, the report of it will le carried by the press, and it 'gives the opr.osite party a long time to enter into the business : and he may subsequently prepare an elaborate statement ofwhichitwill, take us a considerable time to asceitain the real bearing. Mr. Gillies: Yes.

The Superintendent: The accounts were never correctly kept by either Province. Mr. Bell: But, so far as the arbitrators are concerned, we are entirely agreed between ourselves that ye do not intend to take any rait in pointing out tc the Government of either Province the course which we wish them to take in bringing the matter before us; and it was our joint opinion that the two Provinces would, probably, during the time that has elapsed since the act was passed, have considered ihe matter, to that they might Le in a position of laying before the arbitrator their views of what would be a just division of the debt, and I think that Mr. Gillies will agree with me. The Superintendent (interrupting): I meant to say that we may be disposed to take one particular line, and the Province of Southland another; nr.cl it may be impossible for me to obtain documents to meet the pnrticuhvr line they take up. Mr. Gillies: In the first place, they have Jo make their own claim, and brii-g their own evidence'sr. support of their own claim, wholly apart frcm the other Province ; when the other Province sees, that, then they make their claim, saying that " the claim made by one Province is not fair, and we oppoEe it' -—on certain grounds. Tl.e Superintendent: Then, you see, it we go into our evidence it will give them an unfair advantage. Mr. Gillies: I do not see how far that can pc&sil:ly affect it. The Superintendent: It is the evidence in support of the claim which is the point to be taken into consideration. Vi'v may make a hael business of if, simply because we have not had Ihe same time to follow up that consecutive train of reasoning which may have enabled them to airive at their conclusions. Mr. Gillies : I dont think the arbitrators will hurry either party, especially if the claims were.' to be madeon bioari. general principles, rather tbnn upon particular statements of accounts, which are more in Hit nature of c prosit ion. The Superintene'.cnt: I have no objection to go Into a bread stitcnuiit of principles. Mr. Bell : If yew would wish to reconsider thematter be-feire poin.tr immediately into it, in confe-quc-nce of Dr. Menz'ies not buying come up to-day. I 1 five no e'oubtthat Mr. Giliies will sdjourn until to-morrow, which will give you iin oppoitunity of recensideriup the matter; but, as far ns we are concerned, we are ready to ccn mence at once. Mr Bell: I have not the least idea of what couise it is the inteniion of the Southland authoiiiies lo If,ke. I have received no communication from them muco I was apipointed: but I always understood it. was the intention of the Provincial Government of Southland to I.iylefoie the arbitrators certain accounts, showing (tie grounds' uton which they would cor.sidei that the immigration poitic.n of the debt, as to stated openly in' a variety of ways, ought not to be cbs-i'Mtl agaii.s-t Southland at all. Since I have bcei. arpminted arbitrator, I have not had any coinimuiica tfon on the subjee-t with any or.c. Ihe arbitrators, cannot avoid receiving, and considering, whatever tin pjnties may lay before them, in the making up oi th' ir case : so that, it is not possible for the arbitrate rs to say that they will limit either of the Provinces, in ia\ine the case before them, to some broad principle whie-'h would, in that event occurring, have first of ali to be (k'termii eel by the arbitrators themselves. 1 .should very much prefer, nneloubtcelly ;—and lam qv.itc ceitrfn of this, that Sir. Gillies agrees with mt o-i the point,—that, in:- tend of going into any eiuestion of account at all, the two Provinces had seei their way to making the arbitration rest entirely upon some consideration of agreed broad principles, as between them. It would have been very easy to say, for instance, between the two Provinces, that such and such principles should be oonsMeied; that tin rase should, as between the two Provinces, belaid be fore the arbitiators fir their view as to what shouh" be the per eral ae'mittcd principles to be stated. 1 believe you and I are perfectly agreed xipen that, Mr. Mr Gillies :—O. yes : The first'thing to be dor.c 1 apprehend, will be" for both Provinces to it:de the principles on which they ground their claims ; thf-i it will Ye fcr the ailitrators to spree en the pnnci pics which fhouhl guide, c.r ekciele, the claim : ant. tl-cn say,—" Now. gentlemen, we have agreed c-i finch principles, I ring forward wl:i tever evicler.ee jci ctn adduce to support ycur figures." Mr. Cutten : That covne %w.i:ld simplify aflmif very much ; sr.d. meanwhile, ye shull le wastn.'j tinTeby ascertaining facts and figures which may tot ccme iiito the aceeir.t at all.

Mr. Bell : The difliculty that the arbitrators ars in, iB this: if the arbitrators point out the principle! v.] on which tl ey coisider a \iew should be taken, they may prevent cither of the two province's pvittiiif theiV cas"e in the vay vhieh each may consider mott fatisfactrry to itfelf. I undrolfiisd this, that as.suming the ense cr, tb.e part of bt.ih of tb.e ] roviiii:cs_t( be conducted on tho j.rinciples \iliieh crdii;aril\ govern the right cenduct i.f public business, thai eoe'h provir.ee set fcrth only its own view of what fv.m of money ovght to be boine by either province ; bxit it is pv.jely en principles that the detenuii atici v.ill take place : and, if that were : sup.pt.se, ftu instance, that Ihe province of Oiago vere to say. " AYe consider that the deteiniination of this questid ought to rest upon a piirely territorial latis," and the piovinee of Southland-wtie to say, "'SYe totally cb net to that;" then, you see, the arLitratc-is vould bi in the pesitien to my, " W* hicli of these two principles, cr a modification cf tlum, is to be tekc-n '!"

Ihe Superintendent : Then, I tujicse, we sUmit to lie arbitrators the-uew we wish u> be taken, enc. Scufhter.d dees the saii,e, and the different represw.tstives will 1 c obliged to prec'uee evitler.ce. J!r. Eell: After each ef the provinces has had an opportunity of leaking a statement in what way the} consider best.

The Superintendent: Quite so, quite so; yes. Well then, I understand you to ssy that the evidence will be taken in writing ;_and, now, how are the provinces to toe represented 3

Mr. Eell : That, the provinces must determine themselves.

Iho Superintendent: Then suppose, I were to say that J ask ihe (Yn.inisrsioncr of Crown Lands and the Provincial Solicitor to aid me ; would the arbitrators "bjort to that? J!r, Gillies ar.d J.r. Bell : No. Mr. Cutttn : I think, Fofarns tracirp the account s coLccixed, that we should do better if we were to f'etf-rmine our ease, and set it but in writing : if it is tn go loan arbitration at all, the argvnients will be iost if conducted vird vcre. Mr. Bell : It is absolutely necessary that all the statements should be tnktn down in writing.

Tin; Siir.-trinteiident : Then, perhaps, it, would be as well that al! the communications shall come jthrough the Superintedent's effice.

Mr. Gillies : I think it would be well to have the claim in writing, and any objection to the other party's claim. The argument upon the two distinct claims wig-lit be rivti vocc : the arbitrators simply lakir.g such notes of the argument as might be necessary.

Mr. Bell : I see no objection to that course, if the respective goveri.merits ngiee to it.

Mr. Cutten : And I see no objection, if we can uianag* to confine the matter to strict principles. Tlitre i." no evidence required here of the peis-on who prcc'iuces a return —that is, if there is a correct return —but if it conies, for instar.ee, to this; ; if we have to (.o into matters of account, as to how much we vluuld, or should not, be charged ; for instance, for steam crnmuiiication, or for the uectien of a gaol. Where there is a matter of dov.lit, or a difference of opinion, it will bee one a subject of argument.

Mr. Bell: Of course, you know we can have no idea of what.documents, or what evidence, ycu pro)cse to uVvceintmwt ci the jciticular view that you may have.

Mr. Gillies : I i-houltl fancy it will lie in this way. For instance—in regard to one debt; tint this should be adjusted purely en a territorial basis ; or c.n the extent cf average"; an adjustment on that hat-is would give Mich a division. 5 hen, with repaid to the second debt, that must be adjusted, taking into consideration sttam ci inmniiic-ntion, and such other itnus as tl;ey miplit consider favorable to be taken into account "in adjusting the point. Then the other side: would do the same ; they might say, "it shall not hn\ territorial at all: it ought to be a population basis, or lliat simething; eho should be taken into account ;| then we have, fiitt, to deteimine between these principles, this basis of calculation, and the arbitrator:, must cccii'e en cue, either that it fhould be territorial or that- imuiigiatiou should betaken to Recount, or that Mich and such an item .'hall be taken into con.^deration, and then, in tidjusting the Recount, it will iteclvo itself into an arithmetical calculation as to the i.incunt arising out cf these different items. Mr. Bell: It is a \ery serious difficulty, Use Province of Southland not being present, in any way ; because, if they had attended to the notice, the eiicct of it would have been, that the two Superintendents, and two Provincial Goverements, wculd fhst have certainly fov.r.d it ccnvei.iint to meet Mnong themselves, and see if there, were sny particulars upon which they could agice, so as to minimise the principles brought bdorethe arbitrators. The Superintendent: 'When is it likely that this argument -wsll ccice on 1 An investigation is required into the present aspect of accounts ; ar.d, you know, there is a Provincial Council to assemble on the ICtli.

Mr. Pell : How about the Guiding Star for this trip ■ Mr. Gillies : 1 was told the will go to-morrow. Mr. Bell : lliis is wLatUr. Mci.zies says in his letter :—" The- accounts aie ready, but are not ready to start for Duncdin at a moment's notice. Seme one will go by the Guieiing Star to leek alter Southland interests ; then you must ccme down for one night;" —that is what he writes ; and I do not see from that, that Dr. Menzies? intends to come. The main question that we should now decide would be. whether we should piceced to receive the statement that may be hron/. lit I tie re us ly the Province of Otago : and, whether that statement out lit to be in w lit ing, or whither, if the Province of Otaio so dcsiie it, we should altogether adjoinn the matter until the ether Province is represented. For my iart lam in favor of going on. Mr. Gillie's : I can see no objection. Details are matter on which there can scarcely he f.ny seiiou difficulty. 11 is only the principle which will require n:ature c onsiderat ion.

The Superintcnelent: Then would you linvc any objection to have the next meeting on Saturday or Monday? You see we are hard pressed with the estimates, and one or two tilings. Mr. Bell : What I should propose, would be this:- thnt wo should adjourn to whatever day we shall agree upon, and then despatch a letter to "the Superintendent at Southland stating' the course ihnt we have taken. It will he fur f-aeh province to make its statement of the claim which they intend to advance for the settlement of the debt, and the principles upon which they desire that settlement to be based ; and, in the event of these principles not being unifoini, that we should ilun state the principles upon which we consider that the arbitration should piocecd.

The Superintendent: Yes. Not necessarily confined to either one or the other.

Mr. Bell: Yes. And then state the evidence which ■■hould be given in lespect to the tieatmcnt of those principles. Mr. O'llics : I have no objection at all. [At this stage of the conversation —for the proceiedinus as:U» d such a character, rather than that of debate—>lr. Howoith, Provincial Solicitor, entered, and toeik his scat.] Jlir- Hov.aith : I have'not seen the arbitrators, but, peihaps, I might be allowed to fuguebt that, proluibly, it will be very little use to meet, without some plan of proceeding being agreed upen : and if one party be plaintiff and another respondent, now the plaintiff would put forward his claim lo be answered by the other side: but it appeared to me that, in this cafe, the parties do not stand in those posit ons : and, therefore, .the better mode of procedure wenilel be, that each of the parties .should simultaneously 'exchangewith each other; and, de-liver to the arbitrators their scheme for the apportionment of the debts, and that either of these parties should 1 c at liberty to furnish a written answer : and that, then, the arbitrators would be hi a position to hear evidence in support of the scheme presented by each of the parties. It appeared to me .hat that is the only mode whereby to come to a public decision on the questions referred: and, then, the proceedings will be in such a stale that, if the arbitrators do "not agree, the whole matter would be in a condition to be laid before an umpire. The Superintendent: That is very much to the effect of what we have decided.

Mr. Howoith : There is no reason why one side should expound his views before the other. JVfr. GiJllies : V>*e hare just been talking of that: md, we think, that both Provinces should make a statement in writing, in the first instance, stating die principles upon which they consider the debt should ba divided The principle first : then, afterwards, when the arbitrators decide on the principle to guide them on the different items, the question of letails 'will be simple. There will be very little evidence regarding the principles, and the course, I ■rupose, will, I think, save a very great deal oi trouble in the investigation. Mr. Howarth : That is the course which I suggested to his Honor, in the Executive Council. Oi ?oui£c, the Lett way fir them to do will be, to make their objections in writing : shortly, giving the Lends. Mr. Gillies : The matter niuurt be argued between -he parties, before ihe aibitratcrs come to a decision. Mr. Ilowaith : Of course it is imrxMUe for us to know, what view the people of Southland will take in (he cate ; but 1 believe the Executive Government have coi.fci'leicd the subject, and Ihey have partly decided on the cv.tline of the plan—r.aimly, the principle v}on which each portion of the debt is to be aj.pi i tidied. The Sii] irintcndent: The oniy variance lhat Mr. Howarlh has suggested frcm our own proposals up-li.f-ais to be this : that the documents be Huuilta-

iiccusly presented to the arbitrators ; and, of course, r:<iihel- party will know what is the principle oi cither.

Mr. Gillies : Jf this were a proceeding- in a coiirtct

law, then one party niight endeavor to gain an advan'sige ever the opposite paity; and tvtry advantage could be taken ol a slip made en either side ; but, 1 il.ii.k, in the establishment of principles, there can L;e i;c thing of thi.t kind. j\ir. Ui'll : There can be no advantage, by one Province pained ovj-r the other. Suppou- you had your .•,li.tcn.u:is f.ci.t down by the Guieiii:K Star, it will be •m adv ntiigc, for it will ininimise the points cf <viiki;ce : iitfcv.iiiirt; what Sir. Gillies sj.vs, which is en iri-iv cur joint view, -without the shadow ot a diifertiKe tetvtcn uk, that, so far as we are concerned, we have r.ct the- rtnittifct itle-a of stidinj; our ei-se, and pref.tii;g Ly any ULiissien ircni the other side. Air. fiowartli: lint I do not think it would be ritht for either i city, before stating their ccEe,to aiisv.er ihe cr.te of the other side. My opinion is, tlmt e-ach i aity should deliver his own statements simultaneously to the arbiliators. The Superintendent: It is impossible to ignore the fact that there is an antagonism existing between the Lwo Provinces tn this cccasion ; and it is airaxini that 1 have always known how to appreciate, that in controversy it is necessary to ascertain the direction and strength of the enemy's fire laiigli), and, if we give any indication of a weak point, the opposite part} may take advantage it. Mr. Bell; It is not an indication of [weakness at all

The Superintendent: I should say it was an indication of strength of mind. lam simply for fair play. Let us i!o it simultaneously. Mr. Hov.arth: One advurtage from this proposal, and debated simultaneous action would be that, were it not obfciveel, one party might ptit in a scheme first, and then the other side, might have .in opportunity of revising; its plan by a change of figures, making them less. . The Superintendent: The principle, however, is °°Mr. Howarth: Each side will, of course, propose to take as little upon itself as possible; but, I think the best plan will be for each party to submit lfc respective plans simultaneously. Mr. Cutten: But the statement we make will not be delivered to them. Mr. Howarth : Hut we present it simultaneously. The Superintendent: I admit that point, if it is a document supplied to the arbitrators ; but I shall object to its communication to Southland. Mr. Cutten : Even if we did make our statement fust, it does not alter the facts of the case. Mr. Howarth : But still I think the arbitratorsshould receive the claim of each party simultaneously. | and then they will know how to appreciate it. 101; cannot ignore the fact that Mr. P.ell is appointed .L.v the people of Southland, and if he has any bias, it ism favor of Southland. The Superintendent: But he is here simply as arbitrator.

Mr. Howarth: But arbitrators are not in the portion of jtulges who have no interest in tlie matter. They are, lo a certain extent, the agents of their respective parties'. lam not going Mr. Gillies (interrupting) : So far as the principles are concerned, there cannot be any ptssible difference. Suppose the aibiti -a tors fix tins day week for the statements to lie sent in, and we agree to that, and Si.uthland does not until the last i'ay, when they cojne in with their- claim, raid say, " Here is our claim ! "V.c Vii ore bound to acreeto it !" The Superintendent: But dent ask us to agiee to what you would net imi t upon. . iMr. Dell: The arbitrators have no paver to limit either Province to any course they ruijlit wish to take. If the arbitrators now"male a statement that they will lrqniietherroviiiccsto mhkea simultaneous-statement the end of it will lie that the Province of Otago, which)!* ready with its statement by Monday, will have (xbausted its own cafe; and the Province ot Southland will ccrae in in a few days with a icw words, and resTive to itself the power of bringing- in another stsiti incut at some future time, i'hat would r.ot be productive of the slightest advantage to the Province of Otago. Assuming- what Mr. Gillies and 1 repudiate that we are acting- as apents of the Provinces, the dcire that we should have would be, to keep hr.ck to the Ins-t moment any statement that we might wish to make r.s to any pioposition which might, he hiought fbiw.rd on the part of the other Province. "We should th.en work simply as individual apents of the respective Provinces, fir.d it would not be ct any consequence whether there were any statement, nt'r.ll. What we desire to do is, to divest our selves of the character of agents for either of the Provinces', end what we wish is. to invite the Provinces to bring- foi ward their statement; and it cannot be of any ir.cmc-nt which Province brings in the statelne'nt first, or if the Provinces bring- in their mutual statements simultaneously. I with particularly to afford cvciy facility that may be in my power towards taking-such a'course as the Provincial Government of Otago may consider satisfactory. The Superintendent : The Government do not entertain any imagination or idea of the kijd. They are perfectly of opinion that you are here as arbitrators, and simply as arbitrators. As the organ of the Government, 1 simply express my opinion, and we would with perfect confidence place all the statements we have to make ie your hands. Mr. Gillies : It is not for vis to lay down any lir.c of conduct, but we simply leave it open. We sit, then, to receive from either province whatever statement they wish to make The Superintendent: Will the Court be considered open without the other party being present? Mr. Bell: 0, yes: wo have nothing else to do, under the statute. We have fixed the day on which we propose to sit, ar,d it is a matter ef indifference to us whether the Province of Southland does, or does not, attend at all ; or whether Otago mates a statement, or rite versa. If we find out that neither Province has submitted a statement, then we shall proceed to adjust the principles. I will immediately draw up a letter, stating that at a meeting to-day, it had appealed the most convenient course would be to—do so and so and receive from either Province any .statement that it may desire to make of their view of the principles upon which the determination of the debt should be guided. The Superintendent : If you think it expedient, we might give a. bonus to the " Guieling Star," to expedite her return. Mr. Bell: I think that would be of the highest importance. The Superintendent: If the arbitrators will only express a wish to. that effect, I »ill endeavour to make arrangements accordingly. The question of expense will be between the two Provinces afterwards.

Mr. Bell: 0 yes; of course. Mr. Ctitten : .They should be urged to get the matter settled as soon as possible ; for within a certain time the arbitration lapses. Mr. Bell: It must be done by the Oth September. So far as I am concerned, I wish to take this first opportunity of our meeting to f-ay that I am perfectly prepared, whether the province of Southland thinks it proper or not, on 'the receipt of any statement of either provir.ee, to go into the matter with Mr. Gillies; and 1 do not believe myself that, in a fair view of the case, there is likely to be any necessity to lapse the arbitration. Mr. Gillies : Having commenced it, we will not allow it to lapse now. It was then nrrnneeil that the next nieetim? should be held at the Superintendent's Office, on Monday forenoon, the 14th cunent, at 11, a.m. precisely, when it the province of Otago, will be prepared; to submit its statement.