WAR REGULATIONS

New Zealand Times, Volume XLIV, Issue 10277, 12 May 1919, Page 6

WAR REGULATIONS

REPEAL DEMANDED

800 WATEESIDERS WAIT ON CABINET MINISTERS. «&. LIVELY INTERVIEW. On Saturday morning about *BCO jraterside workers marched to Parliament House to meet members of Cabinet. The deputation demanded the repeal of the War Regulations. The proceedings were distinctly lively, there : ivas considerable plain talk, and some very interesting ground ivas broken. Mr L. Glover, president of the union, *' began the speeches. "Gentlemen and members of the Cabinet," he said, -. -you understand that there was a resolution passed at the Waterside WorKP rs' Union to ask that the members ot Vhe union should meet Cabinet to express their opinions relative to the W ar Regulations. A deDutation was nrrangEd and I have much pleasure in introducing this small deputation of work- '<" ers. We want to go into the cases of Wo of our members— Sydney Fournier • "and William Farker. The first-men-tioned has been excluded from tho Wellington wharves under a regulation . and the other has been sentenced to 12 months' imprisonment. We hold that whether the regulations were necessary or not during the war they are . riot ■ necessary now. (Loud cries of Hear, hear.) "Although thev may be arbitrary and wo believe thev are. they have been arbitrarily and vindictively put into ope- >■ ration." Take Parker! He is an old man. He cannot be far off his grave. He has been sentenced to 12 months' imprisonment. Shouts of "Brutal." "And I believe he did not know what

he was doing. We think it a crime that the old man should be in jail for ' . that. We ask for the repeal of the War Regulations. The war is over nnd vre say that the reflations are not necessary now. If they are kept in operation it Trill be in a class interest only—(hear, hear) —and not in tho interest of the members of our union or of the working class." (Hear, hear.) "WE HAVE LIBERTY TO RETAIN." "There are that many War Regulations," said Mr E. E. Canham, "that ' was ordinary working men have lost crack of them. We know, however, that certain of them arc being abolished; for instance, the Black List. We don't' ask that it should be reinstated, but we ask that the men of tho work- : ing class should be reinstated where they were before the war. We ask ; '.' that there should be no class discrimination;. There was a War Regulation which we were told was to prevent shipping from being blown tip. Under that „a, number, of men have been debarred from the wharf, among them Sydney Hugenot Fouroier. Some of them have pffven their sons in the war. I am a Britisher, and speaking as a

Britisher.. I demand the same treatment for every man on the waterfront, wherever he was born. We see • v .h© u'ai' censorship removed, hut the Z- .<sensoi3b.ip.on the utterances of-William Parker .is not removed and it should be. We don't all agree with eyerything Parker says, but we say that he should have freedom of expression. . . We in our time have been gagged. We were told it was necessary to do that to..win. the war. Well, the war has been won. It is all very well for you to say you have order to preserve. Wo have liberty _ to "retain and we are going to retain it." Loud hear, hears and cries of ar*. proval greeted the last observation. '•YOU WILL BRING ABOUT A REVOLUTION." "If you don't give freedom-to tn& /corking class, you are going to bnns about revolutionary ideas which .are gotag to place you out of business," was Mr A. A. Agnew's opening observation to the Acting-Prime Minister. "We come to you not as our masters, but as our servants." • Applause and hear, hears interrupted the speaker. "The exploiters have been allowed to go on with their profiteering and the go-slow policy. Parker, Fournier, and others have been victimised, and when it has been passed on to the State to carry on that kind of work for the employers a worse state than ever has been oreated. We claim that if oyer there was a necessity for the War Regulations, that necessity has gone by. We demand that the War Regulatipns must go in regard to industrialism.. We have only one thing to sell: that is our labour power, and to sell it we have a right to go wherever wo will. There is the coa« of Abbott. That man's character has never been cleared. Right throughout this country -the unrest is in connection with the War Regulations. In the imposition of these regulations the people nover had a aay. Parliament never had & say, and the" Government never had n, say. They were brought down by three individuals. I believe they were brought down by Allen, Massey, and Herdman. Wo know wha* harm has been done to our class ■*' ■ Tho Hon. Arthur Myers: I don't think that is a fair remark.

Mr Agnew: Well, you won't comb down to our union to address us. Cer-

tainly Mr Herdman is away now, but ■that doea not clear Mia <,l tb« onus *>t Ihis part in this. We had it in tho Press the other day that enemy firm« hare been taken oil: the black list. I don't say that anyone should t>u m, the black list, but I say that the tirao ha 3 arrived whon tho War llcgulationn ought to go. Parker is in jail for freedom of expression. Sedition has been described as a thing likely to cause dissension, or pet class against class. Parker lies in the jail, but Uutihie, who blamed the watersiders in connection with the forged bank-notes, is not, nor Is It. A. Wright, who said that there are 500 criminals out of 1500 men on the Wellington waterfront. And the "New Zealand Times" was not touched for publishing the statement of Duthie. Wo say this to show you that the War Regulations wore pnlv brought in to. try to interfere with tho worker, and not with the class to which you belong. We demand *he repeal of those regulations, which affect us industrially. (Hear, hear.) If we don't try to get them one way—well, if you try to prevent steam from coming out of .a pipe, tho cork is going to fly out. (Applause.) SELLING LIBI7RTY FOE, DAILY BREAD.

Mr T. Brindle: I think I'will be quite safe in saying that tho previous speakers have come within the pale of the War Regulations, especially those dealing with seditious tendency.' We havo many reasons for objecting to the War Regulations. Tho first is that ih''.v hamper our efforts for dealing yith our own class organisation. Then it represents the worst form of Prus-

'sianisru tvhich our men went across tho water to destroy. VCfocers.) <They de-stroy freedom of speech, and once you do that you destroy both mental and moral progress. You will realise I the difficulties we are up against, "i ou take'the case of rournier, a member of our union. Wc have tried to got information as to why ho is debarred from tho wharves. That is enough to discredit the War Regulations. Tho embargo has been taken off tho wharves, and tho guards havo been taken away. Is it not reasonable to | ask why should tho embargo not be J taken off tho men who work on tho wharves? Thus <we conio to the question of Parker, who has been imprisoned for twelve months for sedition said to have been contained in a pamphlet. Parker's is a form of propaganda which I have no time for, and it shows a form of hysteria or vindictivoness to imprison him. (Hear, hear.) ,It is hardly necessary to point nut that your administration is class administration. (Applause.) You cannot kill ideas by sending men to jail. The only way" is to put better and nobler ideas in their place. I hope you will take this point of view into consideration, and that at the earliest possible moment wo will find that our members are no victimised under what is called democracy. (Applause.) We hear a great deal about the worker, but never anything about his liberty. We are. compelled to sell our liberty to get our daily bread, and we want you to give us that liberty we think we are entitled to. Wo think you might have been actuated by the best -of motives in framing these War Regulations.

Cries of "No; no."

Mr Brindle: But the circumstances have now disappeared, and we want to commence a new era.

MAY BE GRABBED ANY MOMENT.

Amidst much applause and frequent cries of "Good old George," Mr J. GBruce, the secretary of the union, was announced. "It may seem strange," h© said, "that there is anything left, for me to say. i am in accord with what has been said. The first objection we have to the War Regulations is a very vital one. Under them the idea of British law is upset altogether. Now one has to prove his It used to bo that his guilt had to be proved. It is a harder thing for a man to prove his innocence than to defend himself when guilt has to be proved against him. Twice the watersiders were charged under the War Regulations—our case in Wellington .(the Kittawa) and the Timaru case. \Vo managed to get off in both cases, but we were mighty lucky. Take tho case of those who have been charged! Why have they not been ibrought before the court? 1 We come to you, and we are told that you have some evidence, but you never produced your evidence. You say you believe that Sydney Fournier is a dangerous man, but I don't believe he is going to. do any injury to any ship. You may be grabbed any minute under these regulations. You" can 'be grabbed for impeding the dispatch of a ship, and it js very easy to do that. Have a row with the boss, and you may impede the ship, and you are under the regulations. The regulations hamper even the Press by the .workers. Yesterday it cost the working-class Press £6O for a letter a correspondent sent in. The funny ;thing stopped handling the meat. We are here to tell you what we think, and we say that we want to have a little more freedom now that the war is over—more freedom than ever we had. (Applause.) I hope you will take notice of the men we are representing, We are only the spokesmen."

SIR JAMES ALLEN REPLIES

AND THE ATMOSPHERE GROWS WARMER.. Sir James Allen was given a good reception when he rose to reply. "Gentlemen," he said, "first of all I want to tell you that I am sorry that other members, of Cabinet are not able to bo present. Some are-out of Wellington and some are sitting on the Repatriation Board. I am glad to meet you, and I accept your challenge. The challenge is that I should come down and address you at your union meeting." (Cheers.; A voice: That is only bluff.

Voices: Put him out! Sir James Allen: I have never had ian invitation before, and I am perfectly certain you -will give me a perfectly fair hearing. ' A voice: And you need not have an escort. Another: There are enough returned soldiers to escort you. Sir James Allen: Tou speak of the casa of Abbott. Now. sometimes the i matter comes to the Government in confidence. The correspondence of the case was- shown to Mr-Bruce, the secretary of the union. Mr Bruce: No! Sir .Tames Allen: Well, then it was your president. One of the deputation: "Who was it really? Wo would like to know. Sir James Allen: You must take my word for it. Abbott was warned off the wharves and a'deputation asked mo to do what I could for him. I found him work in Government employment. That is all I have to say about Abbott. Parker has been tried by the courts of the land and has been sentenced to 12 month. 1 / imprisonment. I don't think you aro hero to do anything that is hurtful to New Zealand, and 1 nm not hero to do anything hurtful—to_ create or continue a feeling of hostility between classes of the community.

Mombers of the deputation: That is what yon aro doing. Sir James Allen: Some people want to keep alive the hostility which does exist;

Deputation!sts: No: it is the Government which Is doing that. THE JAILING OF WILLIAM PARKER.

Sir James Allen : The best interests of New Zoaland will bo served by making the conditions of employment good and satisfactory, not by creating class hostility. Parker was dealt with under the laws of the land, which wero mado by the Parliament of the land. The majority must rule, and it is i'ho of the minority to respect those laws. The laws are made by tho majority in tho interests; of th" people. Voice*: Not the War Regulations!

A mild uproar ensued. Sir Jam'js Allen: T am quite sure yon will allow mo to have my say. Cries of "Order; let bin speak." Sir James Allen: Parker was tried and convicted of distributing a leaflet of a seditious nature. Voices: Question! question!

Sir James Allen : Of courpo it was a question, and that was submitted to the court to decide. They <leeid"d that the pamphlet was of n seditious nature. I will read a portion of it to

you because I am not quite sure all of you saw it. Voices: We don't want to hear it!

.Calls of "Order"! Sir James Allen: Shall I read the lot?

Voices: Let us havo the lot! Sir James Allen proceeded to read Parker's pamphlet, and his reading was punctuated by observations from tho deputationists. Parker wrote that the most intelligent had adopted a policy of going slow, and this was applauded. A reference in the pamphlet to useless drones" brought forth more- applause, and cries of "there are lots ot them walking about now." . Sir James Allen: I am circulating this for vou, vou understand—circulating it with comment I am going to make that will rmiko it safe. A voice: Hear, hear, Jimmy. . Another: You are taking a risk. Applause and a demonstration followed the reading of a Pa ssa^/ ron > J** pamphlet referring to parasites being compelled to do useful work. Sir James Allen: You say the goslow policy may be in your interests. A voice: Never! „„?» Sir James Allen: Who says N^ er? I ~m inclined to think ho represents the bulk of nho opinion here. ... • I believe the go-slow is more ruinous to the labouring man. than to anyone olse It ia bound to increase.the cost of living and reflect more seriously on the labouring man than on anyone elsfr. I say to you, and you know it is true, that," the go-slow policy is ruinous to the labouring man and ruinous to tho country. Now, that is what Parker has been preaching- .Ho was convicted, and I am not going to promise you that the existing Government will interfere with the judgment of the courts of the land. Cries: W T e didn't expect it; and considerable noise. • Air Glover; I will ivst ask you *? give Sir James a hearing. Wo want to hear what he has to say. Sir James Allen said that the only way to deal with such oases was to set up' tribunals which would decide between the parties. FOURNIER AND THE FINDING OF WEAPONS. With regard to Fournier, the ActingPrime Minister said: "Fournier has been excluded from the wharves. You say there is no possible danger to the shipping now from the wharves Watersiders: And never was! Sir James Allen: Some say "Never was." " , A voice Not from the working class. Sir James Allen: I say there was dangei-. Voices: Nat from the wharf labourers. Sir James Allen; 1 don't say from the wharf labourers, but I say there was danger and there was actual damage co a ship. You know as well as I do that some machinery of the ship was seriously damaged and that if ahe had gone to sea there would have been serious trouble.

Voices: Not by the wharf labourers. One of the deputation: Name the ship. Sir James Allen: I don't remember it. Someone at the back: The John Ena. (Laughter.) Sir Jamo3 Allen: It was in the interests of the country that we should protect shipping. We have some suspicions about these things. A voice: We have some suspicions about the Government.

Sir James Allen: I daresay you have, but I hope that some day you will have it removed. A voice: What—the Government?

Another: Yes; I hope so

Sir James Allen: "We have some suspicions against Fournier. A watereider: What are they? Sir James Alleu: Very well, I will tell you. When he was arrested, a search of his room revealed fifty .303 cartridges. Disorder reigned for awhile, but the leaders of the deputation restored calm.

Sir James Alien: There muso bo fair play between you and. me. If you ; want, mo to speak, you must be silent, otherwise I will stop. There wero also found 115 smaller cartridges, 15 revolver cartridges, a lead-headed bludgeon, a.manifesto against conscription, an I.W.W. membership card, and a manual on field artillery, indicating thai Fournier was not satisfied to use moral suasion. A voic&: Good mant

Sir James Allen: I don't know that you have many revolutionaries here. 1 thijik you had better try to get what you want by evolutionary means, and not by destructive means. Those aro tho oases, then of Fournier and of Parker.

BOMBARDED WITH QUESTIONS. "Now you ask me for the repeal of tho War Regulations. AVhen I got your notice of this I asked Mr Bruce which ol the regulations he wanted repealed. I ask it." Voices: The lot!

Sir James Allen : That is exactly tho answer I got. I wonder if you know what the lot are. Until I know what regulations are distasteful to you 1 am unable to give you an answer. More uproar, and cries: Wo want liberty. Wo have fought for it. Sir James Allen: One of your speakers has nought to mako comparison between tho repeal of the black list and tho continuance of the War Regulations. If the black list is imposed on us, have we any power over it? I ask you as fair men] Voices: Yes.

Sir Jumes Allen: The war is not vet ended. Peace is not yet signed. A voice: Never will bo. Sir Jamcß Allen: 1 think it will. One of the crowd: You are an old twister.

Sir Jamea Alien: Wiien you said you wanted them ail repealed I know you had not properly considered tho matter,.

Voices: Every one of them. Sir James Ailen: You-don't want the regulations protecting the soldiers in case of bankruptcy repealed, do you? Some of the deputation: No.

. Others: Yes; repeal the lot. We will put through another Act to cover that.

Sir James Allen: Now, I am not going over the lot, but there are scores of the same. You let me know what you want repealed, und tho Government, who represents a majority of the people—— Laughter, and calls of "Question!" Sir James Allen: Let us hear what you want repealed, and Cabinet will consider it. You say you want the lot repealed, but is that so? Do you want to trade- with the men who killed your sons? Uproar lasting some time followed this.

Someone- asked: Do you consider that Fournier's having .30J r .itridgcs and a revolver in his room is a cause for depriving him of a living. Sir James Allen: No, and wo have not deprived him of a living. Wo havo kept him off tho wharf. A questioner: How long ago was it that the police arrested .Fournicr ant! found tln-i.c i-artridgrs on his premise.-,? Sir Jamas Allen : i nhoulJ think, as

far as I can gather, probably in January, IW7. Questioner : Is it not a fact that the revolver found in Fouruier's possession was the property of one Charles Hind, who died, but had been a member of tho Territorials. Sir James Allen: I cannot answer tho question any moro than to point out that a lead-headed bludgeon was found there. A voice: Yes, from IM3—one ot Jit Massey's. Another questioner: What reason has Sir James Allen given as to why Founder was excluded from tho wharves? What fresh reason? Sir James Alton t Ho was excluded because in the opinion of those who administer these regulations he might be dangerous on the wharves. MORE UPROAR. Mr J. J. Roberts: Will Sir James Allen answer the following: Has he made personal inquiries as to the ammunition and other things found in Fournier's place? Have his ofheers told him that the things 'belonged to Hunt, who Fournier nursed when Hunt had fever? Are they going to punisn Fournier for a thing he did twelve months for? As to the War Regulations that affect shipping and the wharves, we ask you to say definitely if -sou cannot put them off the statute book, will you make then! inoperative? , ~ , Sir James Allen: 1 can't say that I have examined the whole of Fournier's story. I know enough ot it, however, to say that tho officer who administered the regulations was justified in excluding JVourmer from the wharves. I am going to read a bit of this regulation. It provides for dtwiling with every person wfcio by any act, whether wilful or neglect, endangers tho safety of. any ship or cargo shall bo guilty or an offence, and shall be dealt with accordingly. I want to say that I think this regulation should be continued in peace time. A voice: Put a rope round his neck. Sir James Allen: lam of the opinion that you men here have got the same spirit as the seamen ot tho Old Country. ■ An interjector uaid that the protection of ships was covered by civil law. Sir James Allen: Ot course it should be civil law. . Uproar, and: It is civil law now. I Mr Bruce: Play fair with the deputation. • You have got up and read a part of this regulation. Get up and read the whole of it. Tlay fair; that is what we wane. Sir James Allen: I did not read the whole of it because it was so long. Mr Roberts: lam not working, Sir [James. I will read it. I Sir James Allen (after reading aloud): I can't see much harm in this. If you want that regulation repealed in order to make room for Germans on the wharves I am not with you. Another uproar. '

Voices: Give ns an election! Mr Bruce: It is not a fair remark again. You are trying to leave the impresson that .we have come here to get Germans back on the wharvas. We have come to get protection for our members. How many Germans are there on the wharf, anyhow? The Regulations are enforced against everyone, whether they are British or German.

A voice: Against returned soldiera, tool

Sir James Allen: lam not going to read any more to you. t The Government will give its careful consideration

A voice: And honest consideration (La-uehter.)

"PROTECT US FROM YOUR MlJxlTARY MARTINETS."

Mr Roberts: Will you take that Regulation and mako it civil law, so tiiat we will not be treated by your military? AVe want a straight answer from you. (Cheers, and "Jtlear, hear, Roberts.") We say ships havo to Do protected, but we also want protection. (More cheers.) Wo ask you to protect us from your military martinets who are driving us to the point of revolution. (Loud applause and shouts of approval). •

Sir James Allen: I resent this. 1 say the military are not driving you. .Voices: They are. Do you want a repetition of Fremantlo?

Sir James Allen: - I will take tho Regulations before Cabinet, but the Government are out to protect tho shipping and also the seamen and the men. on the waterfront. MR MYERS'S VIEWS.

The Hon. Arthur Myers also addressed tho deputation. "In the absence of the acting-leader of tho ..Liberal party," he said, "I deem it my duty to say a few words. I consider this tho beginning of a new era. I quite agree with bir James Allen as to the advisability of coming more into contact with each other to hear each other's point of view. Sometimes wo may be found to bo wrong; other times we. may find you wrong. It is dangerous in this country to try to create any class feeling. A member of the deputation: It is herel You don't need to create it I Mr Myers: New Zealand is one of the foremost democracies in the world, Loud laughter and interruptions. ■ Mr Myers: Mr Myeis: Don't prove that you are not going to allow the other man the right to the freedom of speech '»ou claim for yourselves. No class must say that they are the only ones eutitlod to that privilege. 1 believe it wo came moro together and hoard the various points of viow, we would be moro in agreement than we are now. We must hear your point of viow and you must hen* ours. The Government brought in those regulations, and it is for you to decide at tho forthcoming elections Cries from all sides: When? When?

Mr Myers: You will have an election as suro as you are standing here. Tho deputation: When? Mr Myers: Within a few months. The direct question you ask is that the War Regulations be abolished. The Peace will probably bo signed within a week or two. The more deputations you bring to us the better it will bo. Someone: We will have ono every day! Mr Myers: We will do our best to do what is right, and we will be pleased for you to come and point out what ahould be abolished. Ido tiiink that it is of tho utmost importance that wo should come in contact with each other. You invito us to your meeting, and £ assure you it will be a pleasure to acc';>t the invitation. I havo never heai-

•d to take tho workers into my confidence, and 1 have nover regretted it. We have no .right to turn any section of the community down, and *w© want to seo the greatest good to tho greatest number brought about. Don't hesitate to put your point of view or ask us to oxplaiu things..

GO SLOW AXD THE GOVERNMENT.

Mr Myers: As Minister in Oliargo of Munitions and Minister in Charge of the distribution of coal Tpronrious interruption.

Mr Myers: 1 want to know why this

interruption because I was going to associate myself with Sir James Allen in regard to tho detrimental effect on you and the whole Dominion of the goslow policy. I say it is not in your I interests. I' . A voice: Yes, it Is. Mr Myers: There are other ways of bringing" a matter before constituted j authority. We all havo to recogniso constituted authority. The Raranga is here to distribute coal, and I have allocated 1000 tons for domestic use. You nave your meeting to-day and not a ton has come out of the ship. The Government is doing everything possible to distribute coal to the best advantage. But we are three-quarters of a million tons short, and if you can show mo how we can make this shortage good without increasing the output, I will vacate ofike to-morrow and hand it over to you. Voices: AVe will tae it.

Mr Myers: AVe want to see everyone have plenty of coal, and we can only do this by increasing the production. We want to put the problems to you and gob the benefit of your advice. In conclusion, I want to say that your representations will receive every consideration at the hands of the Govenment.

Mr Glover: Wo havo placed our case before Cabinet, but before we go there is this to bo said: Sir James Allen says that he gave the information regarding Abbott to mo or to the secretary. Well, it is true that he gave it to me, but under the seal of secrecy. I gave my word concerning it, and when I do that I am not in the habit of breaking it. Someone who occupied the dais and desk formerly used by tho Speaker of the House of Representatives, interjected : "Secret diplomacy 1" Mr Glover: No.

The interrupter, with his hat cocked sideways and a cigarette behind his ear: Yes, I say secret diplomacy. Mr Glover (sarcastically): Another meeting going on at the back. Mr Glover: We thought we would be able to thank the Ministers for the information they would give us, but we are not in a position to do that. Regarding the lead-headed baton found in Fournier's place, if you come down to our office you will find another. We got in the 1913 strike, and Fournier aid the same, and whoever gets it to him it belongs. As to the War Regulations, we thank the Minister for accepting our invitation to come down and address us. Regarding the go-slow, our members havo never expressed an opinion as a union whether they favour it or not. I know that there are hundreds that do and hundreds that do not. The Government cannot accuse us of that. I Sir Jameß Allen : I don't. [ Mr Glover: The Government has no need to leave their own home for that. If anyone has gone slow, it is the present Government.

Voices: Hear, hear! Good on youl Mr Glover: The point I make about your going slow is in your not holding a general election. Still, for your going slow, I have not the power to have you arrested. I sincerely thank the mombers of Cabinet for "the hearing given us.