PARLIAMENT

New Zealand Times, Volume XLII, Issue 9788, 11 October 1917, Page 3

PARLIAMENT

YESTERDAY’S SITTING LEGISLATIVE COUSCIL • SEVERAL LOCAL BILLS DEALT WITH. THREE WELLINGTON BILLS PASSED. The Legislative Council met last night as 8 o’clock, the Acting Speaker (the Hon. W. C. F. Carncross) in tho shair. LEAVE OF ABSENCE. I.rn.vo of absence for the remainder of the session was granted to tiio Hon. J. Fisher (Auckland) on account of illness in his family. THE LATE HON. J. D. ORMOND. Sir Francis Bell gave notice of his intention to move the following day a motion in respect to the death of the late Hon. J, i>. Ormond. LOCAL DILLS. Tho Hon. O. Samuel moved tho second rending of the Manawatu County Loan and Empowering Rill. - Tho Bill was put through all its stages and passed. The Tauranga Harbour Amendment and Foreshore Bill passed its second reading on the motion of the Hon. 'Major Harris. Tho Bill was put through its third and final reading. The Hen. J T. Paul moved the second reading of the Western Taieri Land Drainage Bill. The Bill was put through its final stages. WELLINGTON BILLS. The Hon. J. G. W. Aitken moved the second reading of the Day's Bay Sanitation and Water Supply Bill, the Wellington City Emppwering Bill and the Wellington City . Trading Departments Reserve and Renewal Fund.s Bill. The three Bills were put through all their stages and finally carried. At 9 p.m. tho Council adjourned until 2.30 p.m. to-day. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES WAR PENSIONS BILL LIVELY DEBATE ON THIRD READING. STRONG SPEECH BY SIR JOSEPH WARD. ECHOES OP THE CAUCUS MEETINGS.

The House of Representatives met at 2.30 p.m. yesterday, the'Speaker (Sir F. W. Lang) in the chair. The time till the dinner hour adjournment was occupied by questions, with and without notice, and by tho discussion of committee reports and of printed answers to questions, all of which are x'eported elsewhere.

On the House resuming at 7.30 p.m., the War Revisions Amendment Bill was reported with amendments. "SURPRISED AT VOLTE FACE.”

Speaking on t tho third reading of tho measure, Mr J! T. M. Hornsby (Wairarapa) expressed surprise at the volte face executed by many members with respect to the bill. Ho supposed that that was the result of something that had been said to them at the caucus meetings held the previous day. The Prime Minister had told the members of tho Second Division that the Government would regard as wards of the State the children of the men who went to' fight for their country. Yet how little was being done for their wives and children under the bill 1 Messrs Wilford, Forbes, and Guthrie, bad gone as a deputation from the House to a meeting of the executive of the Second Division League, and they acquitted themstdves so well that when they left the executive sang, "For they are jolly good fellows,” evidently believing that they bad got all they asked for. Yet, what was actually being done? It was said that the Dominion could not afford it, but the banking returns, published in Monday’s "Tiroes.” showed that there was abundance of money in the country, millions and millions being on deposit. The people were ready and willing to find the money. If they needed more revenue, why not reimposo the mortgage tax?

A member: "The mortgagees are taxed on tho income now.”

Another member: “The mortgagor now pays on the mortgage.”

Mu Hornsby suggested that money could be saved by ceasing to buy native lauds till tho war was over. They could also stop the territorial training for the same period, thus releasing a number of men for tho front as well. The Finance Minister had objected to a suggestion that the death duties should be increased, thaKjio revenue would bo available for two years. But, would not the money bo needed then? Why this hesitancy to touch the sources of real wealth ? Further, why not go on with the graduation of the land tax beyond the present terminal point? That would bring in a great deal of revenue. The reinforcements should be cut down. They had mot too many men. He regretted that there had been only seven men in the House who would vote for tho increased pensions—the two guineas a week—to the wives of the soldiers. "BE A 'SPORT.”*

Mr J. Vigor Brown (Napier): “Be a ‘sport’; don’t put it that way." Mr Hornsby: “I shall put it that way, because I know it to be the fact.” Mr G. J. Anderson (Mataura): "You are an arrant humbug.” (Laughter.) Mr G. Witty (Ricearton): "Anybody who did not know tho hon. member for Wairarapa would think he was quite sincere in what he has just said: hut wo know him too well.” (Laughter.) The bill, ho contended, was a generous bill. He. for one, would do all for the Second Division and their dependents that could bo done, but the country could not do the impossible. The seven men who had voted for the full demands of the league were the seven who had pot been at the joint caucus. Mr P. C. Webb (Grey): “Why weren’t they there? They didn’t get the chance.”

Mr Wittv declared that the hon. member for TWiirarapa had attended one of tho caucuses and ho had just given a wav much of what had happened at that caucus, and had given out as his <vwn ideas the .suggestions of other people. He agreed, however, that the country had sent too many men. If they made the taxes too heavy they would not got the revenue. That must be remembered. What would they tax? Would thev tax land? Mr J Payne (Grey Lynn); “Incomes over a thousand,’ 7 Mr Witty: “Yes. I would agree to that. I wish I had a thousand. A man with ovA‘ a thousand Pan well afford to 03 v.” (Laughter.) Mr G. W. Forbes (Hnrunui) said that all the amendments of the night before could do was to indicate to tho Gov-

ernment the feeling of the House that as much as was possible should be done for the Second Division and their dependents. That members had indicated verv strongly in the two caucuses that had been held. The Labour members had not had the opportunity of indicating it to the Government, and ho did not quarrel with them for taking tho course they had. But at tho caucuses tho Government had placed the whole finanoiail position of the Dominion before them and had ’ stained that they could not. in view of that position, see their wav to go further than the 10s a week to the children; and. as against that, what could the House do? The whole House, he was sure, would like to see the full demands of the Second Division granted —(hoar. hear) —and so would the' Government—(hear, hear)— hut the finances of tho Dominion would not permit it. There would be another Rwwr.n of Panfliacnont before hose , pro-, visions came into operation to any great extent and if the financial outlook were then better, as he hoped it would be. thev could make increases. He thought that thev could face the billedldon of alllowarccs with more freedom than that of pensions; as the allow, ances would only continue for the period of the war, and when the time came he would do what he could to get them increased.

Mr D. H. Guthrie (Orouia) spoke in a similar strain.

AN AMFjNDMENT MOVED. Mr Vigor Brown deprecated the attitude taken up by the member for ■Wairanapa, who seemed to wish to make out that he had done something .wonderful, and that other members had voted against their principles. But it members hlad voted for tno reduction of fid a week as an indication that the .wives should get two guineas a week, and had carried it, that would have reduced their pensions by 26s a year, which was a. considerable sum to many people. As to the financial position, he thought that the money could bo found. The Finance Minister was one of tho most able financiers now in pr| tics, and though the Minister might not like the added responsibility, he, for one, would not hesitate to put it on his shoulders. They were dealing in millions, and should not get in a panic, or be frightened about it. Britain, which was spending many more •millions, was not getting into a panto’ •He moved as an amendment, ’ That this House is of opinion that the pensions for widows of soldiers, as provided for (by this bill, are inadequate.” .. • Mr T. M. Wilford (Ilutt) asked tho Speaker whether, if the amendment was lost or carried, the bill would not ■pass without further debate. Mr Massey said that the amendment was not relevant to the motion, which was “that the bill be now road a third time.” He . had never heard of such an amendment being moved to the third reading of a Finance Bill. It was usual to move that it bo road six months hence. The Speaker said that he had never heard of an amendment of that kind; (but it was quite competent to move an amendment at that stage. He would look into the matter in the meantime, FINANCE MINISTER’S SPEECH.

Sir Joseph Ward said that there was ■nobody in the House or the country who was not willing to do all that could bo done in the way of pensions for the soldiers and their dependents. But members who had any sense of res sponsibility must’not allow their hearts to run away with their heads. They, must have a sense of proportion, and they must have regard to the very heavy obligations of the country in regard to the war, and tho fact that none of them could say how long the war would yet continue. They must’ not sot up a pensions system so costly that they could not keep it up, both, during and after the war. If they did sot up such a system, the pensioners would suffer. Next session the war, might bo over, and then they could reconsider the position and see whlat more they could do. (Hear, hear.)

EIGHT MILLIONS OR MORE WANTED.

But they had to borrow that tour (•million,- move ait once. Noil; .iia-.v they would have to borrow at least ■four millions more; anl'if the war went on, they would' have to raise ■ very; much more. Did tho hon. members realise that by comparison with the, Mother Country, with its 45 million (people. Now Zealand’s borrowings were equal to 2000 millions sterling? Fob they were blowing away millions and millions right and left, without- regard to the financial position in tho country. ■The Mother Country was very much better able to bear tho strain than a young country like Now Zealand. Who would suffer most if after the 1 war tha Dominion was not able to get ready! for the commercial war and industrial, war that must follow the present;-.war?-

Mr Payne -. “What are you doing to got ready for it? 1 ' Sir Joseph Ward : “We are doing' all that we can—all that can be done; and the hon. member could clone more. All he can do is to criticise those who are doing tho work.” (Hear, near.) WHO WOULD SUFFER MOST?

After the war, he added, they would have to commence on a now plane to carry on the country in tho general intercuts of ail classes, amid rflfco man who would feel the pinch worst of all if they could not do that would be tho small wage-earner—the man earning under Ai a week. They were reducing the capital value of the men with more than A 4 a week, and in reducing the capital worth of that largo section of tho community, they wbuld interfere wtfch their ability to meet the new conditions after tho war. Unless they were in the position of easing off the heavy taxation after the war, they were going to have a strong stream working against the development of trade and industry, and the workers would suffer most in that case. The men of the slenderest means, dependent upon their bone and sinew to make a livelihood for themselves, their wives and children, were bound to be hit the hardest. (Hear, hear.) It was hardly prudent of members when, the country was approaching a total of fifty millions of borrowed money fay ask tho Government to borrow another million to grant tho requests of tho Second Division League. Tho House had the most liberal system of pensions and allowances in the world, yet they wanted more. The interest the Dominion had to pay was A 6,650,090 a year, an .increase of A 3,700,000 a year since the war commenced. It was time that members stopped theorising and helped the Government to lighten tho burden. No one knew when the war would end,, so :it was only wise to make provision for another year. Anyone must be next door to in•sano to suggest fun’ther heavy financial obligations for the country to bear. On the score of popularity some members were advocating something like this. If people pressed the Government to go otter the border (then members must get up and say the Government wonld not do it. .

On the House resuming tho Speaker ruled that Mr Vigor Brown’s amendment was in order. Mr L. M. Isitt (Christchurch North) very strongly stigmatised. tho speech made bv the member for Wairarapa. Messrs Wilford. Forbes, and Guthrie had been ceaseless in their efforts for the members of the Second Division and their dependents, yet the hon. member had unfairly attacked them in tho fashion he had. MISERABLE NONSENSE. Mr Isitt considered. Mr Hornsby’s remarks as miserable nonsense. Mr Hornsby hud said that unless the Government was prepaired to pay those men Mr Hornsby: "That is entirely wrong.” Jtr Isitt; “You said that unless we

are prepared to pay these men we have no right tA send them.” Mr Hornsby: “I never said anything of the kind.”

Mr Isitt: ”1 have them written down.” Mr Hornsby ; “I did not say that.” Mr Isitt; "Wo will see by ’HanSard.' ”

It was impossible, added Mr Isitt. to make for these men the provision they deserved. All member® bad to do was to trust in the National Government.

Mr Hornsbv quoted from his “Hansa.rd” proof to the effect that he bad said fflwit the men should be paid before thev were sent.

Mir J. Payne said be was surprised to fee Mr Isitt grovelling at the feet of the National Government. Mr Hornsby bad spoken a® a man who thought for himself, so it was, not surprising that be h.vi been opposed by members who allowed the National Government .to thitik for them . The Government in power was one of vested interests, and that was Whv it wee not maki’’g ■ quate provision for soldiers and their dependents. STRONG WORDS. Mr A. H. Hindma-rsh said ho would ask the Prime Minister a question. Was not a family ftiiat had receaved injury through their father being forced to go to ,tine front to receive compensation to ■tihe uttermost? A.'family might be caused untold misery by their father being forced to go. Should not this family be compensated to the full? If a groat of •prosperity were to be taken, from the richest naan in the House he would be 'compensated. Tlhis was class legislation, The time would come when there would be no more class legislation. There were members in the House who were licfiier than when tho mar edmmcneed. This was not fail. . There should be an ' immediate census of wealth in New Zealand. The Government chon Id say to the man who Was monopolising the land, “Wo are- net asking you to contribute your life, but you rmsst give all that; is -possible to end the war.” But the Government •Would not do this; there was only to be class legislation. Ho appealed to tho Prime Minister to make not only the polar people pay far the war. but to make tho neb qeople pay. The Hon. D. Buddo supported the bill as it stood. Though it did not dp. all (that he wontd like to do for tho soldiers, ;he thought it did aill they could under ithe oircumstanoea. He hoped theft next Crea.r, the finanoiail position would bo (such that they could do more, and that • the House. would then eMtetrid the scope ;0f the bill to cover the cases of the (Now Zealanders who had gone Home to enlist. (Hear, hear.) Mr P. C. Webb (Grey) said that the (Labour members had been deliberately shut out of the joint conference; but (he contended tha't nob only had every •member of the House a right to know (the whole of'the faata. but the country (bad a right to know them as well. They ■were taking men from their hemes to (fight without proper compensation. (Thev eonsontoted men, but they would not conscript land and wealth. They (deified wealth. Tho majority of .the [people wore in favour of higher pemaions, and they should be given. THE JOINT CAUCUS ~ /'A FLAGRANT INSULT TO LABOUR MEMBERS.” Mr TV. A. Vcitcli (Wanganui) declared that the joint, caucus meeting of ithe Supporters of tho Nation-ail Government held the previous afternoon was a flagrant insuffe to the Labour members of the House. It created , tlhe aissugnption • that the men who represenitdd Labour in tho House were not fit to be Itrueted with the ordinary responsi■bilitiios of government. Dt was honestly impossible for them to attend the conference, yat now they were blamed because they had not acted, upon infortomtion. which, not having been at tho conference, they had not received. That conference, he held, removal the' last claim of the Government to be a National Government. He would be dcflrgllvted to follow a real National Government .but this Government had failed to do its duty to the wage-ear acre of Now Zealand. (Hear, hear.) They fluid told the workers of New Zealand that they should go to Parliaiment for the redress of tiheir/grievances, but the 'Government gave them no redress, mid then they wondered at a revolutbitolnuiry een/tinrebt arising in the country. (Hear, heat.) The Go.reT.nme.nlt said that they (had no money to increase the pensions, (yet in the past few years the land raluca of the country had increased by far more than tho total cost of the war. .They , talked about the last shilling. Amt in regard to tlrait they fln;*d hardily Come to the first shilling yet. (Hear, (hear.) ■' Mr Massey said the plain trvSth was thalt’eenhain members had been onconiLged from certaiin quoaitcte to harass the Govern me lift ns mudh as possible. This had been erMent in tho recebt tjauous. • The understanding arrived at (between members and the Government 'on tjhalt Oocmion was entirely na'tisfactory. ! Mr Wilford said he always intended (to help the National Government, and /would do this noit only witSh his agreement but by helpful criticism. He would 'divide tho House whenever possible on tur<y important n flitter on which he disagreed w|th the Government. It was (the Autv of members to help the National Government imj cr.-E»ry way possible. Mr C, E. Statbam (Dunedin Central) and Mr TV. T. Jennings (Taumarunui) also suppefted the Government. Mb- J McCombs (LyllteMon) ridiculed (the idea that the country could not affofld a more generous pension sdhenie. In 1902 the unimproved land values of Ithe country were AM,009.000, whereas in 1915 they were 230 millions, an in-> crease of 135 millions, or at the rate of 10J- millions a year. Uf pailt of the amount was the Maine of Grown lands, but ho had the Ahthoilty of a well-informed Govorn■merit official for saying that at least eight millions a year of that commun-ity-created increase in value went into the pockets of private individuals. Yet thev could n-St afford, batter pensions! DEFENCE MINISTER IN REPLY, Sir James Allen said that a deputation of four members of the Second Division League had agreed to support clause 4 of the bill as it stood, but the league (not the membetrn) alf’crwards went back on that agreement. The two guineas a week for a widow was morel than the Second Division League themselves asked for; and it was, he contended, a breach for members of tha House to demand two guineas a week. Mr Wilford dissented. Referring to the .hon. member for Lyttelton, Sir James Allen declared that he hod been opposed to all that had been done by New Zealand to win tho war. He was opposed to the Military Service Act, and the Minister said that he had reason to believe that tho hon. member had, behind the scenes, endeavoured to bring about industrial strife to prevent the Act being brought into force. The hon. member was an iconoclast of the worst type. It was said that the bill was not generous, but the bill allowed AS for a disabled soldierwith a wife, while the Second DivisionLeague had askod for only A 3 Is 3il a week for them. The bill, he claimed,’ Was as liberal as it_ was possible to . moke it in the financial position of the Dominion.

Mr Vigor Brown withdrew his amend-’ men*, in case it might jeopardise the bill; and the third reading was carriedon the voices.

. At'1.4.5 p.m. the House adjourned till 2.30 this afternoon.