PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXIV, Issue 5822, 26 November 1879, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tho Hon. the Speaker took the chair at half-past two o'clock. GENERAL. Several petitions, papers, and committee reports were laid on the table. A number of notices of motion were given. MOTIONS. The Hon. Mr. CHAMBERLIN moved, — That this Council is of opinion that all fencing laws should be abolished in New Zealand. The hon. gentleman, in support of his motion, said the common law of England was amply sufficient. There was no need for fencing laws.—The Speaker said it was an undesirable course that amotion should be brought forward at a time when they had a Fencing Bill under discussion. It would open the way to endless discussions if such a practice became frequent. The motion lapsed, it being four o’clock.— The following other motions were postponed : —By Mr. Taiaroa,—To introduce the Southern Native Districts School Bill, 1877. —By Captain Fraser, —That there bo laid upon the table a return showing the number of coal mines worked with a single egress ; also, the length of time that each mine has beex so worked. NATIVE EXPENDITURE COMMITTEE. This committee brought up an interim report [published in the present issue], which was ordered to be printed, upon which being done. Colonel Whitmore notified he would move it should be taken into consideration. THIRD READING—COMMITTEE. The Fine Arts Copyright Act Amendment Bill was read a third time. The Council went into committee on the Qualification Bill, the discussion of which had not terminated at 5, when an adjournment was made till half-past seven. On resuming at 7.30 the consideration of the Qualification of Electors Bill in committee was resumed, the remaining clauses were disposed of, with numerous unimportant amendments. The Bill was ordered for third reading on Thursday, notice being given for its recommittal then. PROTECTION OP ANIMALS AMENDMENT BILL. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN moved the second reading of the above Bill.—The Hon. Mr. Waterhouse moved that the Bill be read a second time that day six months.—Bill thrown out on the voices. The Council rose at 9.55. house of representatives. Tuesday, November 25. The Speaker took the chair at half-past two o’clock. GENERAL. The usual routine business was gone through in the way of presenting petitions, giving notices of motion, and laying reports and papers on the table. , questions. The Hon. Mr. HALL said in consequence of the late hour at which the House adjourned, it had been found impossible to get ready the answers to the various questions on the Order Paper. He therefore moved that they be post, poned until the following day. The motion was agreed to. COMMITTEE of supply. On the motion for going into Committee of Supply, Sir G. GREY hoped the Government would not go on with the Estimates until the people had an opportunity of understanding the proposals of the Government. The Hon. JOHN HALL said tho matter had been fully discussed on the previous night, and had gone to a division. Mr. SHRIMSKI would assure the Government that there was still blood in the Opposition, and they were not going to give in yet. Mr. GEORGE would like to know if the Government intended to bring in a Representation Bill this session ?

Tho Hon. JOHN HALL replied in the negative. Mr. STEWART spoke to the same effect as Sir George Grey. Mr. LUNDON said he had a motion to move in Committee- of Supply, to the effect that the sum of 450,000 be appropriated for division among the various counties north of Auckland. ,

Captain COLBBCK seconded the motion, which was also supported by Mr. George. The Hon. Mr. OLIVER believed the districts in question had been neglected, but the way to obtain redress was not to introduce such a motion into that House, which, if carried, would only result in a scramble for public money. He hoped the hon. member for the Bay of Islands would withdraw the motion, resting assured that every district in the colony would receive justice. He believed almost every member of that House could unfold a tale of negligence in reference to his particular part of the colony. Mr. LUNDON said he should not withdraw the motion. Mr. HONE MOHI TAWHAI said he Would first address the reporters in the gallery. He had twice made a speech in the House, and each time been called Major Te Wheoro. He might say something wrong,’ and if ho did so it would be attributed to the major. He would now say something to the House. The hon. gentleman then proceeded to speak at some length strongly in favor of the motion of Mr. Lundon, stating that the districts to which reference had been made had been greatly neglected. Mr. SHKIMSKI supported the motion, and said that the only way to justly obtain such votes was by bringing forward such motions as these, and fairly discussing them, and carrying them in the House or otherwise.

Mr. SBDDON thought the resolution now before the House was scarcely the way to get justice for the north of Aucldand, or for any other part of the colony, and he should oppose the motion. In the present state of the country’s finances it would be impossible to set aside such a large sum as £59,000 for the north of Auckland without doing injustice to the other portion of the colony. Mr. TAINUI supported the motion, but at the same time he thought the money at the disposal of the. Government should be fairly distributed among all districts in the country. Mr. MAOANDREW could not support the metion, because if they agreed with it, they would have to agree to fifty others of a similar kind.

Mr. SPEIGHT was well aware of the difficulties existing in the district to the north of Auckland, which had nerer had one single penny of public money spent upon it, and if the motion had done no other good it bad called attention to a very important subject. If the hon. member pressed his motion to a division he would vote with him. Mr. TURNBULL supported the motion, as it was only just that the district in question should have some portion of the public money spent upon it. Mr. HEADER WOOD would remind the House that the district alluded to had no portion of the land fund spent upon it for the purposes of roads and bridges, and it was therefore only right that whatever funds the Government had at their disposal, a reasonable proportion ought to be given to the district north of Auckland.

Sir GEORGE GREY was surprised at the tone adopted by the Gorernment in reference to it. They had admitted that the district had been scandalously neglected, had asked his hon. friend to withdraw his motion, but had not indicated what they were prepared to do in the matter of giving justice to the district in question. He would advise his horu friend to adjourn his motion until the Public Works Statement was brought down, and then if justice were not done to the north of Auckland ho could bring it forward again. Mr. LUNDON then withdrew his motion. Mr. MOSS then moved the motion of which he had given notice, as follows, —That, in the opinion of this House, it is desirable that foreign v essels arriving in New Zealand ports should not bo allowed to engage in the coasting trade, but should be confined to the discharge of original cargo at such port or ports as they may desire, and to the loading at such port or ports of cargo for British or foreign ports. That the Coasting Trade Regulation Act, 1871, be amended accordingly.—The object of his motion was to prevent a vessel coming here from a foreign port and taking in cargo for purely coasting purposes, discharging it in other portions of the colony. What he wanted was to see foreign vessels excluded from the coasting trade. Mr. W. J. HURST seconded the motion, and spoke strongly in favor of it, stating, in the course of his remarks, that in America no European vessels were allowed to trade between one port and another, Mr. SWANSON addressed a few words to the House, and

The Hon. Major ATKINSON said the Government would take the matter into its consideration during the recess, as the matter was one of very considerable importance, which oaoht not tn lie lightly disposed of. He hoped the mover would withdraw the motion. Mr. MOSS declined to do so. Mr. GISBORNE opposed the motion, Mr. IRELAND hoped the motion would be withdrawn. The motion or going into Committee of

Supply was then put, and declared to be carried on the voices, Mr. Moss called for a divison, but did not press it. The House then went into Committee of Supply, and the Estimates were proceeded with.

Postal.—Chief offices and sub-offices. Item, £43,861. In answer to a question. The Hon. JOHN HALL said if the House affirmed the principle of lowering salaries over £2OO a year by 5 per cent., the Government would of '.course abide by such decision. Some of the salaries had been paid since the beginning of the year according to the scale set forth in the Estimates.

Mr. GISBORNE contended that no increased salaries ought to be passed by the Auditor while the House was in session, and before such salaries had been voted. Mr. RICHARDSON said that the custom had not been to pay increased salaries until the Appropriation Act was passed. The Hon. Major ATKINSON explained that the auditors had passed items where there was an increase at the recommendation of Ministers,

After some discussion, the Estimates were proceeded with, and the item passed. Item £68,510, for conveyance of mails by sea.

Mr. READER WOOD called attention to a bogus item of £2500, which was on the Estimates for a Fiji service. If that service were doubled, it might really be useful. The amount might be allowed to stand this year, and be doubled next, with the view in question. Mr. SHEPHERD moved that the vote of £4OOO for West Coast-Middle service be reduced by £IOOO, that amount being paid as a subsidy to the Maori, while the service could be very well served by public enterprise. Mr. MoLEAN did not think it would be advisable to stop the service. Mr. REID said the service was of the greatest importance to the West Coast, and he hoped the vote would not be withdrawn. Several members having spoken, and the Hon. John Hall having given an assurance that the whole thing should be looked into during the recess, The item was reduced by £250. It being now half-past 5, the House adjourned. Item, £360 ; Wellington, Kaikora, and Lyttelton service. Mr. SHRIMSKI moved that the item be struck out.

The Hon. JOHN HALL said the matter should be considered during the recess, and if the bonus could be done away with it should. They were only takingthe vote for nine mouths, and five months were already over. The motion was then withdrawn, and the item passed. Item, £l5O ; Wellington and Patea service (six months). Mr. GEORGE moved that it be reduced to £IOO.

The Hon. Mr. RICHARDSON reminded the House that most of these contracts were for a year. The item was passed. Item, £2500 ; Fiji service. The Hon. JOHN HALL said he did not think that £SOOO would pay for the service, as suggested by the hou. the member for Waitemata in the afternoon, and the Government would not feel justified in promising to place that amount on the Estimates. Mr. SPEIGHT hoped that the Premier would have acceded to the request of Mr. Wood.

Mr. ANDREWS hoped that the item would be struck out altogether, aud Mr. Gisborne moved a resolution to that effect. The Hon. JOHN HALL said he had no objection to promise that the whole matter should be taken into consideration during the recess.

After some discussion the item was struck out.

Items, £32,000, San Francisco Company’s service ; bonus for same, £2500 ; Suez service, £9OOO ; Intercolonial service, £SOOO. The Hon. JOHN HALL said the_ Government were of opinion that this service ought to be kept up, as it was of great value to the country. Neither would the people consent to have the Suez mail cut off.

Mr. MONTGOMERY wanted to know why £9OOO-was put down for the Suez service, when the amount actually expended ou that service last year was only £4577135. sd. The Hon. JOHN HALL explained that the whole of the amount would be required. The average was £9OOO a year, and it was a matter of accounts between the colonies. Mr. GISBORNE moved that the item £SOOO for intercolonial service be reduced by £2OOO.

Mr. SHRIMSKI moved that the item be struck out altogether. Mr. GISBORNE withdrew his motion. Mr. MoLBAN wished the House to know that he was the Chairman of Directors of the Union Steam Shipping Company, and proceeded to point out the great disadvantages which would arise if the subsidy were withdrawn as suggested. The items were passed as printed. Item, £1750 ; mail agents and travelling allowance. Passed without objection.

Item, £B6O ; Auckland steam service, A good deal of discussion took place on this item, which was ultimately passed. Item,£8000; Carriage of mails by railway (8 months). , Mr. J. B. FISHER suggested that the item be struck cut.

Mr. J. T. FISHER thought it was only right and fair that the Railway Department should have the credit of showing what work they did. Mr. BOWEN thought it simply led to a complexity of accounts that was quite unnecessary. Mr, KELLY moved that the item be struck out.

The Hon. Mr. RICHARDSON expressed similar views to those held by Mr. J. T. Fisher, and hoped the item would not be struck out.

After some discussion the item was passed, as well as the following one of £I6OO for mails by special trains. The following items were passed without discussion :—Conveyance of inland mails Auckland, £5250 ; Thames, £300; New Plymouth, £BOO ; Napier, £3OOO ; Wanganui, £550 ; Wellington, £4OOO ; Blenheim, £BOO ; Nelson, £SOO ; Westport, £BOO ; Greymouth, £9OO ; Hokitika, £1350 ; Christchurch, £4500 ; Timaru, £1250 ; Oamaru, £4OO ; Dunedin, £7250 ; Invercargill, £llOO. The item £SOOO, for postal contingencies, was passed without discussion. Telegraph Department, £110,668. The Hon. JOHN HALLinformed the House that only one-third of the telegraph offices of the country paid their expenses, the expenses of the small ones being paid by the large ones. He thought they had been extravagant in . this matter of the Telegraph Department, and was of opinion that stations should not be established at small places unless the public guaranteed some reasonable amount of the cost. The hon. gentleman proceeded to give a number of the details of the department.

Mr. SHBIMSKI would suggest that the telegraph estimates should he postponed until the telegraph operators’ petition had been considered.

Mr. ANDREWS drew attention to what he considered the inconsistency of the principle which regulated the payment of the various officials in the department. Some discussion took place on the subject of the establishment of a new telegraph department in connection with the railways. Mr. GEORGE moved that the whole of the item £IIO,OOO be reduced by five per cent., or by £4150 Is. , , Messrs. London and Rheves opposed the motion. Mr. MACANDREW said they might discuss the Estimates for a week, and they would not make twenty pounds difference. He would suggest that they pass them in globo. A good deal of discussion followed, The motion of Mr. George was put and lest on the voices, and the whole item carried in a block.

Item, £7350, subsidy for Australian cable. Mr. SAUNDERS drew the attention of the House to the advisability of having pigeons in connection with the telegraph system, particularly in the North Island, and suggested that the first dove-house should be at Wellington, and another at Blenheim, when if anything happened to the cable their communication would be much more perfect than it was lately on the occasion of their being a break in the cable.

Mr. REID thought a little money spent in this way would be well employed. The item was then agreed to. Education.—ltem, £263,114 6s. Bd. Mr. TURNBULL spoke very strongly on the subject of the compulsory clauses of the Act not having been brought into operation, and contended that the present system of education was not really free. The Hon. Mr, ROLLESTON made a statement regarding the educational system of the colony. He maintained that the svstem of education ought to be free, and quoted figures to show the progressive attendance at schools, 1 which had arisen ia consequence, The attend-

I once of 41,000inl877hadrisenin 1878 t 050,000. With regard to the cost of scholars per head, in London it was £2 12s. ; in Queensland, £3 15s. 4d. ; in Victoria, £3 11s. 6d.; in Massachusetts, £4 ; and in New Zealand, £4 Bs.; but there was no doubt that by-and-by this cost would be very greatly reduced. The people of Now Zealand were determined that their children should be educated, and he was sure the House would suppport them in that determination. (Hoar, hear.) The Government were only waiting for the report of the special commission to make provision for the whole of the high schools in the country. In the meantime they had brought down some special votes in this direction. There had also been a sum of £IOOO placed on the Estimates towards the establishment of an institution foi deaf and dumb, but that sum was intended for the expenses of an instructor, who was now on his way out. The Government did not think it would be wise to commence the building before the arrival of that gentleman, who was an expert in these matters. They intended to erect the building in some convenient place easily accessible from all parti of the colony. With regard to the figures as a whole, he would be very glad to give auy explanation that might be necessary. Mr. GISBORNE contended that if the present system went on it would be too much for the people to bear. They were giving too good an education at the public cost, as could be seen from the fifth and ssxth standards. Those who wanted to perfect themselves in those standards should pay for it. He advocated utilising their reserves, which at the present time were useless. He quite agreed with a free preliminary education, but if the present system went on the people would before long object to the free system altogether. Mr. JOHNSTON thought they should look the question fairly in the face, He should be very glad if the Government would endeavor in this matter to place the burdens equally upon the whole of the people in the colony, for at the present time it was well known that a considerable section of the people could not take advantage of the Education Act. Mr. REEVES hoped the Government would endeavor to bring down some scheme which would remove the injustice under which a large section of the community were suffering. Mr. STEVENS hoped the Government would make some effort to bring the provision in force in the Act having reference to compulsory education, which was now practically a dead letter. Mr. SHEPHERD briefly addressed the House, and agreed with former speakers that it was time there was some change in the educational system. Mr. BOWEN reminded the House that the country had had to take this question into their own hands, to provide a system of national educational, and that before this system came into vogue the educational system of the country was very defective. Everyone must be satisfied that the State could not give individual denominations largo sums of money to expend after the manner of their own particular crotchets. Mr. JOHNSTON again reminded the House that practically one-seventh of the people of New Zealand were not able to take advantage of the present national system of education. Mr. SPEIGHT said, as a proof that this was not correct, it was well-known that the seventh of the people referred to preferred the present rather than the past system. Mr. ROLLESTON replied to the arguments adduced, and said he could hold out no hope of bringing down a measure for the special legislation of auy one section of the community, although when a seventh was said to be the number who were debarred from taking advantage of the present system of education, he thought the case was rather over-stated. With regard to the question of the compulsory clauses in the Act, practically there would be little occasion to put them in force. Mr. TURNBULL again addressed the House, and moved that the amount be reduced by £56,000. Mr. SEDDON was in favor of the present system of education. In his small district, when the denominational schools were abolished and the present schools were established, it was fouud that the Catholic children were two standards behind the others. Mr. J. B. FISHER did not agree with the last speaker, that the system worked satisfactorily.

Mr. HISLOP reminded the House that the whole question could be discussed on the following day, when a motion would.be brought forward on the subject. Mr. GIBBS was iu favor of a purely secular system throughout the colony, and he believed the more the people knew of it the better they liked it. He did not, however, agree in the national funds being devoted to what was termed the higher system of education. The Hon. JOHN HALL sympathised with the views expressed by the hon. member for Manawatu, but he did not think the present was the proper time to disturb our national system of education. Mr. ANDREWS was strongly in favor of an education system that was free and secular, and advocated subsidising higher class education even so far as high schools and universities were concerned. Mr. LUNDON would vote with Mr. Turnbull, and said the present system of education cost ten times as much as the one which existed formerly. Mr. TAINUI spoke in favor of the present educational system, and said he hoped the Government would assist the natives to get a college or high school, so that in this respect both races might be placed on an equal footing, Mr. Turnbull’s motion was then put and lost, and the amount put down for education was agreed to. Item, £SOOO ; public library. Passed without discussion. Item, £15,399 6s, Bd. ; native schools. After some slight discussion the vote was passed. The following items were passed :—Department of Justice (for the nine months), £1095; Crown Law Office, £1620 ; Land Claims Office, £l5O ; Supreme Court, £5322 ; Districts Courts, £SBOI. Item, £34,813 ; Resident Magistrates’ and Wardens’ Courts. Some discussion took place on this item, and it was pointed out that tho department was more expensive than was absolutely necessary. Mr. HISLOP thought it was quite time that the salaries of officials iu this department should be equalised, and several members in the House drew attention to the small salaries received by magistrates’ clerks in various parts of the colony, as compared with the salaries qf similar clerks in other parts. The item was then passed without alteration.

The items Petty Sessions Court, £ll3 ; Criminal Prosecutions, £6OOO ; and Coroners, £1875, were passed. Item, £30,419 ; prisons. Mr. GEORGE asked if it was intended to equalise the salaries of gaolers and wardens throughout the colony ? The Hon. Mr. EOLLESTON replied in the affirmative. The item was then carried. Item contingencies, £3900. The Hon. Mr. ROLLBSTON explained what the contingencies were likely to be, but Mr. PYKB considered the explanation unsatisfactory. The item £2231 for miscellaneous services. Objection was taken by several hon. members to the item £B2O for a stone breaking machine at the Auckland gaol, a portion of the above item. Mr. PYKB gave the House a disquisition on the qualities and capabilities of stone breaking machines. The item was passed as printed. The House adjourned at half-past one.