PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXIV, Issue 5821, 25 November 1879, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES. Monday, November 21. The Speaker took the chair at half-past 2 ° °The usual notices of motion were given, and other routine business transacted. QUESTIONS. Mr. HAMLIN asked tho Government, —If they will introduce, and pass through all its stages, an Act to indemnify Georgo Buckland Worgan for any evidence be may give before the Native Affairs Committee tending to criminate himself, if advised by the Law Officers of the Crown that such a course is necessary for Worgan’s protection ? The Hon. JOHN HALL replied that the Government could not answer the question until the case came before it, Mr. REID asked the Premier, —•Whether it is the intention of the Government to take steps to place the Civil Service of the colony on a more satisfactory basis, in regard to increases of salaries, in order that the present power in the hands of Under-Secretaries and heads of deportments may be somewhat curtailed ?

The Hon. Mr. HALL was understood to say that the Government would look into the matter, and that full justice would be done to the civil servants by the Government. Mr. HUTCHISON asked the Government, Whether they will bo prepared to call for tenders from local tradesmen for the supply of the saddlery required by the mounted division of the Armed Constabulary ? The Hon. Mr. HALL replied that the amount of saddlery was so small that it would not he worth while tendering for it. Mr. J. B. FISHER asked the Government, Jf they will make inquiry during the recess as to the desirability of their acquiring the Wellington and Westport Colliery Company’s extensions of the Westport and Ngakawhau railway ? The Hoa. Mr. OLIVER replied iu the affirmative.

Mr. REEVES asked the Government, —If they will cause immediate action to bo taken in order to have tho fire extinguished which has been burning for some years past in a coal seam near Point Elizabeth, West Coast, Middle Island ? The Hon. Mr. OLIVER replied that the Government would cause inquiries to be made, and if possible cause the fire to be extinguished. In answer to a question by Mr. Sheehan, — Whether tho Te Aroha Block would be opened for settlement—Mr. Rolleston said a large proportion of the block would be open as soou as the drainage works were completed. In answer to a question by Mr. SHEEHAN, the Hon. John Mall said a sum of money ■would be placed upon tho Estimates for the Thames High Schools. In answer to a question by Mr. Moorhodse, the Government replied that they quite recognised the importance of constructing the Oxford and Sheffield line, but whether they could have the work done was another thing.

In answer to a question by Mr. Shanks, the Hon. John Hall said that the old Volunteer companies would have a priority of claim in the matter of arms and ammunition. In answer to questions by hon. members, the Government promised to lay certain returns in connection with the land tax on the table. NEW BILLS. The following Bills wero introduced and read a first time :—A Bill to amend the Appeals from Justices Act, 1867 (Mr. Finn); the Married Women’s Property Bill (Mr. Finn); a Bill to amend the Inch Clutha Act, 1878 (Mr. Thomson). 011DEH3 OF THE DAY. The Debtors and Creditors Act, 1876, Amendment Bill was read a second time, and ordered to bo committed next day. The Hon. JOHN HALL moved the second reading of the Members of General Assembly Expenses Bill. Mr. KELLY thought that both branches of the Legislature should be consulted in the matter of this Bill.

Mr. SPEIGHT expressed similar views. Mr. DICK thought the Lower House alone should deal with this matter, and then send up their BUI for acceptance or rejection. The Hon. JOHN HALL having replied, The motion was put and agreed to, and the Bill ordered to be committed next day. The House then went into committee on the Regulation of Electors Bill. Considerable discussion took place on clause 29 in reference to plural voting. The House divided several times, and ultimately clause 28 was carried as printed. A long discussion also took place on clause 33, and Mr. Hislop moved that no elector should vote at more than three places. A division was taken, with the following result-.—Ayes, 26 ; noes,_27. The clause was accordingly carried as printed. The debate was interrupted by the hour of adjournment. WANT OF CONITDENOE.

On resuming’, Major Atkinson moved that the Speaker do leave the chair, in order That the House do go into Committee o£ Supply. ~ , Mr. MAC ANDREW rose and said he desired to express his dissatisfaction with the Financial Statement, and before sitting down he should move that the proposals of the Government on the financial question were unsatisfactory. According to those proposals, there was a deficiency of £BOO,OOO. It had been stated that the late Government had entered into contracts of over two millions of money, which, it was also stated, must be met by June next. As a matter of fact, the whole of the outstanding contracts were something over £600,000. He regretted the sensational Statement of the Colonial Treasurer. What would be the effect of that upon the public mind in England ? It must be very prejudicial to the colony. It was like Nero fiddling while Rome was burning. Whether the amount of deficiency stated by the Colonial Treasurer was correct or not, they might take it that there was a very large deficiency. It was stated that things were now to be equalised, and according to the Treasurer this was exceedingly simple. All they had to do was to increase the taxation, and so solve this apparently difficult problem. Eor his own part, he would like to have heard something like a proposal to diminish the expenditure. Rut nothing of the kind was done—on the contrary, there was an increase. It mi"ht be said that the Estimates were those of the last Government, but as a matter of fact this was not so. He held that the present taxation of the country was quite as much, if not more, than they could bear. He bad no objection to changing the incidence of taxation, but under no circumstances were they justified in increasing the taxation unless it were to meet their engagements with the public creditor. He would not agree to one sixpence extra of taxation to keep up an already overgrown set of departments. They had already overgrown their position. This was not a position of the creation of yesterday. He had frequently anticipated this, and called attention to it, but they might as well talk to a deaf adder as talk to that House till the shoe absolutely pinched them. Nothing could place them in a proper position but a revolution in their financial matters. They must rely more upon the pruning-knife than upon the tax-gatherer. The principal instrument they would require to use would be the pruning-knife. He was quite aware that this was a most difficult matter to deal with, and he could not conceive a Inore ungracious thing for any Government to have to do than this ; but still it was absolutely necessary that it must be done. In Otago they had got into the same position, and the expenses of the Government had to be cut down by £15,000, and for a period of six months if any man ever lived in purgatory, that man was their humble servant. They did not reduce the salaries with the exception of the Superintendent, but they did away with a good many offices and amalgamated a good many, others. Nothing but a financial resolution could save them from an enormous financial difficulty. His own feeling was that they should find the money first and vote the services afterwards. The same principle which guided a private individual should guide the State, and they should cut their coat according to their cloth. No financial proposals would be satistactory which did not have this result in view. Hardship or no hardship, it must be done, unless they went in to impose taxation such as the country could not bear. No doubt individual hardships would ensue, but they might result in individual blessings. If they got rid of two or three hundred employes, he did not see why they should not give them free grants of land of from fifty to a hundred acres. Necessity knew no law, and it was absolutely necessary that some change should be made. He should localise the functions of Government as much as possible, which would effect a very great saving in the matters of police, education, &c. They hat! made a great mistake in their edi.c:. ioual policy, which ought not to have been made a charge on the Consolidated Revenue. What he meant by a financial revolution was that those who raised the money should spend it, and vice versa. This would remove enormous difficulties. If a general line such as he bad referred to were

adopted, colonial taxation would be very much decreased. He regretted that they had not the public works proposals before them ; for these proposals might make the state of things doubly unsatisfactory. He did not blame this Government or any particular Government the blame should be on the Continuous Ministry. They had made two very serious blunders, one of which was in insisting on the PuM c Works Policy b-ing differently administ red from what it was intended when promulgated by Sir Julius Vogel. The other blunder was that the House had wantonly destroyed their best system of local self-government. They were now called upon to pay for both those blunders, and it was difficult to see what the upshot of it would be. Be would not occupy their time any longer, but conclude by moving, —-That in the opinion of this House the financial proposals of the Government are unsatisfactory. Mr. MONTGOMERY seconded the motion. The Hon. Mr. OLIVER admitted that the proposals were unsatisfactory to the Government itsc'f, hut there was nothing else for them to do but impose this additional taxation They had been accused of placing grinding taxation on poor people, and taking it off the rich. Their proposals, however, proved that this was not so. They had endeavored so to equalise tho taxation of the country as to make it be equally borne by all classes of the commu. nity. (Hear, hear.) They had made the only honest attempt to raise the taxes of the property owners of the country. They had, too, had to accept the Estimates of their predecessors. They had not had time to consider the position of the Estimates properly, hut they took them as they found them. The present Government had given notice to public servants that they need not expect to get any additions to their salaries. They must, in mercy to tho people and to themselves, try to administer the public departments of the colony at a cheaper cost in the future than they had been administered in the past. With regard to the statement rc contracts and liabilities they might depend upon it that his colleague's Statement was correct, and that it would be fully borne out in a statement which would yet have to come before tbeHonse. Therecouldbe uodoubtabout it that the amount was £2,200,000, and not the £OOO,OOO as stated by the hon. member for Port Chalmers. The hon. the Minister for Public Works proceeded to give the items which made up the sum in question. As a matter of fact, nearly the whole of the five millions was absorbed. If the late Government had stayed in office six months longer they would have to have resorted to a policy of repudiation. (Laughter, and cries of hear, hear.) When the history of the country came to be known, it would judge between the present and the late Government. With regard to their education policy, he believed they had been too extravagant. He appealed to the House in. asking them to approve of their proposals, and so to show that if the Government were in difficulties they had the courage to face them. (Hear, hear.) In conclusion, he had only to say that he could not oit in his place and hear such statements made without rising to protest against them. (Applause.) Mr. MONTGOMERY proceeded to contradict various statements made by. the last speaker, andmade certain explanationsof his own conduct when a member of the Ministry. He wonld endeavor to show how they had got into their present condition, and who was to blame for it. In the falling off of the land sale l there was a very important lesson to learn, and he proceeded to show the reasons for this. There was a large charge upon the land fund of the colony to meet the current expenses, and he said that in consequence of that system £430,000 had been added to the national debt by means of Treasury bills. It was not fair to say now that their present difficulties had been brought about within the last two years. Whatever might have been the failures of the Government which had just gone out of office, and he did not say they had been economical, they would not have had this deficiency of £BOO,OOO, which was now shown to be the case. The mode in which the Government proposed to meet that deficiency was not at all satisfactory. Had the land fund kept up they would still have appeared to be sailing along in a satisfactory manner. With regard to the Estimates now before the House he wished to say a few words. He felt that the time had come when they should have economy, instead of the Estimates being larger than they ever were before. He could not for a moment see why a Government who had been in office six weeks could not bring down a setof Estimates of their own. It had been said that their oovdd be no departmental saving, but he was quite sure the thing could he done if the Government was willing. The hon; gentleman criticised some of the items on the Estimates, on which he said he was quite certain a saving could be effected. The proposed taxation was excessive, and would do a very great amount of harm to the country. They were going to tax property and improvements of all kinds. There was a very large property, viz, the runholders’, which wonld not be very largely touched by the proposed tax. A runholder did not have to pay anything like as much in proportion as the small farmer would have to do. The country would say, and say very rightly, that such a system of taxation was not a fair system. With regard to the duties which were about to be put on many articles, he agreed with them, inasmuch as they were a protection to local industries, but with some of the proposed taxes he could not agree at all ; but taking the whole of the Statement into consideration he should vote for the amendment of the hon. member for Port Chalmers.

Colonel TRIMBLE thought the speech of the last speaker was of very little interest to them, dealing as it did with what had taken place in 1877, and saying so very little about what was being done in 1879. They had been told that the news when it got Home would do the country a great deal of harm, but he would ask them were they to send Home a truthful or an untruthful statement. One side said they ought to slur over the deficiency, while the other said they must meet it boldly. His own opinion was that the real state of things going Home, with a knowledge of the attempt being made to meet them, would do good rather than harm. The statements made by the hon. member for Port Chalmers and the hon. member for Akaroa had been very different. He considered the charge made against the Government with regard to the distinctive character of the payment of departments and the question of revenue, was not in accord with facts. He hoped that some hon. member who followed him would make it a little more clear to the House what was meant by a grant of land to officials ? Whether the police and education departments were paid by the General Government or by local means was of very little consequence, as the money would still have to be paid by the people at large. It came with a very bad grace from the late Government speaking about the condition of the Estimates, seeing that they themselves had framed them. He should support the Government for the bold way in which they had come forward and told the truth, with an evident desire to meet and override the difficulty. (Applause.) Mr. THOMSON hoped that when the history of New Zealand during the last two months came to be written, the little episode of the Government and the four Auckland members would not be forgotten, for that episode was still a mystery to him. There was no doubt that New Zealand had been drifting into difficulties for years past without a captain, and the House bad looked on, powerless to act. Their debt would shortly be nearly thirty millions, and they would have to meet this to pay for interest and sinking fund something like upwards of a million and a half. When he joined the House some years ago the debt was seven millions and the interest half a million. What had they been doing since then ? Why, he believed in another two years they would be spending not one but two millions a year. It might be said that the whole of their Customs was swallowed up in paying their interest and sinking fund. It was not fair to blame the present Government for this state of things, which was anticipated by Sir Julius Vogel himself. By the ad valorem system they had increased their revenue by £200,000, and then they had got the land revenue of the provinces. And two years ago this fund amounted to over a million and a half, while last year it was £BOO,OOO, and this year, £-100,000. Eor his own part he had always been a believer in direct taxation, and the sooner they came to that the better. The proposed system of revenue of the present Government would press very heavily upon the country. He thought the Government might really have tried to reduce the expenditure of the colony, and to have kept down taxation. Income was a very fair thing to tax, and he did not see why medical men and lawyers should not be called upon to contribute to the expense of the country. They might fairly, too, levy a tax upon unimproved land. Their education was altogether too expensive. Parents might contribute a small sum towards the education of their children. Tire Government were net justified in bring down such extravagant estimates, and taking all the circumstances into consideration, he should support I the amendment now before the House.

Sir GEORGE GREY would like to say a few words, as no one appeared likely to rise from the other side of the House, Sir George Grey then proceeded to attack the Ministry. It was the work of ruthless invaders to pillage the unfortunate residents of the country. They had thought nothing of economy, as was proved by the Bill they had brought down for the paym-nt of members. Why should members of the Upper i Souse receive" the same sum as the members of the Lower House, who had had election and other expenses to pay- A wise Government would have said that they should not be paid at ail. What wou'd they sav at Home of a proposal to pay the House of Peers ? Why had the Government not proposed to make a reduction in the large salaries of officials, beginning with the Government ? It might be said that the Home Government would not consent to such a course. But threatened by such Goths and barbarians as they were, they were justified iu making such a reduction. _ He had hoped there would be a proposition to reduce the salaries of the Ministers themselves, but no such proposition bad been made. They were told, that there would be a deficiency of bet vcon £BOO,OOO and £900,000, and to meet tills they brought forward a proposal which was unjust and unwise. Land before anything ought to be taxed, as it was the source of all property ; for without the land nothing could be produced. There was no fairness in the proposed system of taxation, which must keep the country back for years. Every painting and every bonk was to be taxed, as well as everything which would lead to the cultivation and improvement of high art. A tax of the kind was to some extent in existence in America, but books and pictures and other works of art were excepted. He felt certain that no men would continue to spend year after year large suras of money in improving their properties, under such a system of taxation. It would he easy to raise by an income tax farmore than would meet the requirements. There were various means of making reductions in the expenses of the/Colony, with which, in conjunction with other taxation on land and income, they would be able to meet the present deficiency without affecting the people of New Zealand in the way it was now proposed. It was a necessity that land should be taxed. Sometimes great floods of thought came which swept away unwise laws, such as the com laws. And the whole land system of Great Britain must be swept away, as it had been swept away in Germany and other countries, to be followed by a very great improvement iu the state of things. And the same sort of a change must come in this country before long. Gigantic efforts were being made at the present time to obtain great tracts of land in New Zealand, which, if not frustrated, would be of irreparable injury to the people, upon whom it was now proposed to throw still further charges. There was not a child who did not by some means or other contribute to the cost of its schooling. And yet it was proposed to greatly increase the cost of this education. Sir George spoke strongly on the question of the necessity and righteousness of a tax on land. The land tax they were told was to be merged into the property tax; but there was no such thing. They had a right to expect that land should be taxed, and that the present proposals of the Government should be taken back for reconsideration. Time should be given to the people to consider the great question of the new Property Assessment Bill. He thought the matter was of such importance that he should move the adjournment of the dtibafce. The SPEAKER ruled that Sir George could not move such a resolution. Sir GEORGE then hoped that some other member would do so. Dr. WALLIS then moved the resolution. The Hon. Major ATKINSON said-a more meagre attack had never been made upon any Government than had been made upou them by the other side. They had been told that the system of education was not free, but they had not been toid what it was if it was not free. The Government had no idea of altering the system of education—that scheme came seriously from the leader of tho Opposition, and not only did it come from him, but also from the late Minister for Lands. They had been told by the hon, gentleman that he had calculated the deficiency; but he had uot given them any figures. He had given them conclusions, but he had not given them reasons. He ought to have shown the House how the deficiency could be reduced. He must imagine from what they had said that the d-fi-cieno.y was to be reduced by placing the polios and the education of the children on the counties. The hon. gentleman entirely misapprehended what the land tax was and what the property tax was. It was a perfectly plain thing, when the Government said the land tax was to be merged into the property tax, for they were clearly of opinion that all kinds of property ought to be taxed. The hon. gentleman had told them that this was a proposition to tax improvements. Wonld the hon. gentleman tell him of any part of the world where the income tax did not affect any property, or where the property was not affected by such a tax. He had no doubt that the Bill which the hon. gentleman would have brought clown would have ruined our credit in the Loudon market. He had the power to do what he said he had not, and could have got rid of a large portion of their difficulty with regard to consolidated stock, if he had chosen to do so. The Government in their Financial Statement had promised to look carefully into the whole question of expenditure, with a view to the greatest reductions possible during the recess. He would remind the House that five months of the year had gone. The rule with regard to the increase in salaries had been that snob increases had been paid as soon as the Estimates had been forwarded to the auditor. Each department prepared its own estimates, which were afterwards submitted to Ministers and to the Treasury. He did not hold the late Treasurer responsible for the Estimates, which, he presumed, had been carefully considered by the departments, but had not been submitted to a meeting of the Cabinet. He did not pretend to defend the Estimates as a whole, but asked the House to assist him in reducing them, while the Government pledged themselves to still further reduce them during the recess. The hon. the Treasurer then proceeded to combat the statements made by the hou. member for Akaroa on the question of the finance of the Government of which he (Major Atkinson) had formerly been a member. Then the hon. member for Port Chalmers had made a statement that was quite incredible on the question of the amount of liabilities that were already a cost upon the five million loan, which was engaged to the extent he had told the House in his Financial Statement. Those liabilities could not be got out of, although it was quite true the Minister for Public Works could extend the time a little. Many of the contracts were called for, others were in preparation, and the whole was to be submitted to that House as a reasonable amount to pay tor their public works in the present state of the colony. The hon. gentleman had always been above considering the question of ways and means. He would ask the House to pass the vote, and then he would go To the Treasury for the money. (Laughter.) What-reasons had the Opposition given why this resolution should be passed ? They had said the proposals of tho Government were unsatisfactory. Well, so they were, but they were absolutely necessary. When they said that the proposals were unsatisfactory, they were bound to propose other measures of taxation. Then there would have been a fair issue between them. They were bound to submit a counter scheme, or else the House would not for a moment listen to them. One word as to who was to blame. Iu 1878 the Treasurer made a flourishing statement of affairs, saying we could easily put aside £IOO,OOO for their public works fund, while their land fund also appeared to be iu a most satisfactory condition. But the satisfaction was only on paper. Whatever might have been the fault of past Governments, any Government which could represent the finances of the country as Mr. Ballance had done was exceedingly culpable to the last degree in not having reduced expenditure, and immediately called the House together. A more wasteful, extravagant, and useless expenditure had never been made in the country than the expenditure on native affairs, and he would ask the House if, under all the circumstances, the whole blame did not rest upon the late Government ?

Mr. MOSS spoke in favor of the amendment, and analysed the list's Articles on which it was proposed to levy re re ;'u, with a view to show that as a whole the new proposals were unfair and unjust to the people at large, although he admitted that some of the duties were very proper, inasmuch as they would tend to promote and foster local industry. Speaking of the property tax, Mr. Moss characterised it as the most inquisitorial measure that could possibly have been introduced, and one which would arouse an outcry from the people from one end of the colony to the other. He hoped they would not allow a single farthing to be added to the Customs taxation of.the country. Mr. TE WHEOKO said he had been in the House on Thursday, Friday, and yesterday,

and he had seen nothing done by members, who, in his opinion, were ho in,- Uko children, and wasting the time of the c .an try. He could understand them fighting over anything of importance, but instead of doing their best for the interests of the country they were wasting their time, and no good was gained thereby. (Hear, hear.) The motion for adjournment was then put and lost on the voices. Mr. TURNBULL addressed the House in support of the amendment of the hon. member for Port Chalmers, and in the course of his remarks said there would be a loss of £*260,000 during the year on the railways, and of £37,000 on the Telegraph Department. He hoped that an inquiry would be held into the working of both these departments, which was certain to lead to a great public good. Mr. GEORGE moved the adjournment of the debate. The Hen. Major ATKINSON’ opposed the motion for adjournment, and hoped the debate would be finished before the House rose. Mr. SHRXMSKI hoped the motion would be carried in order that Mr. Bal'ance, the late Colonial Treasurer, who was not present that evening, would have an opp u*tunifcy of addressing the House ami defending hims if from the charges that had been brought against him. Mr. STEWART' expressed similar views, Mr. McLUAN trusted that they would brin*' the matter to au issue at once. The Hon. Mr. ROLLESI'ON also hoped they would finish the debate at ouce. Mr. MONTGOMERY supposed the motion for adjournment. Other members having addressed the House, The motion for adjournment was put, and lost. Mr. STEWART addressed the House for the first time this session. There was a call of “No House." On the bell being rung a quorum assembled, and Mr, Stewart continued his remarks. At a quarter to two there was again a call of “No House," but a quorum was soon rung in, and Mr. Stewart continued his remarks, it being evidently a case of talking against time. [Left sitting.]