PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXIV, Issue 5786, 15 October 1879, Page 2

PA R LIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. The Hon. the .Speaker t,nk the chair at halfpast 2 o’clock. PAPER < AMD PETITIONS. One petition ami a great- number of papers were laid ou the table. THE H'W. MR. WHITAKER. A message was received from his Excellency the Governor, notifying that lie had appointed the Hon. Mr. Whitaker a Legislative Councillor, and also Attorney-General. The Hou. Mr. Whitaker then took the oath and his seat. NOTICES OF MOTION. The Hon. Mr. CHAMBERLIN' gave notice to ask the intentions of the Government as to local industries. The Hon. Mr. WHITAKER notified the introduction of Bills to suppress lotteries and gambling, to amend the District Courts Act, to make letters of probate granted in Australia of effect in New Zealand, for the better protection of fish, &c. MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. The Hou. Mr. WHITAKER said the Council were of course fully aware of the late political changes. Having related the present Ministerial arrangements, the hon. gentleman said there was yet one vacancy in the Cabinet which it was not proposed to fill ‘ill the noconfidence motion in the Lower House was disposed of. As to himself, he had been one of the first three members nominated to tha Legislative Council of Vow Zealand, Mr. Swainson, Colonel Kenny and himself having been appointed in 1553. Before the Council met, however, the Hon. bir D. Bail and Major Richmond were appointed. These hon. gentlemen were still present on their benches, but all the other original members were either dead or absent; —so he was not wholly new, but renovated as it were, iu his present position. He had formerly represented the Government for several years in the Council. He had then conducted the business to the satisfaction of the Speaker and his fellow-members, and he hoped now to be equally successful. He noticed that one hou. gentleman (Colonel Whitmore) had taken some exception to his appointment. He was quite aware that there was nothing personal in that exception. In the existing state of affairs his appointment, however, had been in a sense necessary, as the Government had to weigh several considerations. A gentleman from the Auckland District was needed iu the Ministry, a lawyer was wanted, and a representative of the Government in the Council. It was deemed that he possessed the three qualifications, and hence his appointment in preference to any other member of the Council. He hoped the Hon. Colonel Whitmore would accept this explanation, as he (Mr. Whitaker) wished not to differ even from him. He had never had any serious difference of opinion during many years with his hou. friend, and he had no doubt that hon. gentleman would come to be as pleased to see him (Mr. Whitaker) there (on the Government bench) as he was to see the hon. gentleman himself opposite. (Laughter.) He would now make a short statement as to public business. During the last two or three years there had been great talk about Liberal measures, and many promises had been made that these measures should be passed into law. But they had nearly all fallen through, and there was as yet scarcely anything done. He (Mr. Whitaker) had many years ago—as early as D 58 —been an electoral reformer, had prepared measures to effect reforms, and had predicted that those reforms would have sooner or later to be carried. During the last two years those predictions had been verified. He was sure the Council would deal in a proper, fair, and liberal spirit with all measures the Government submitted for their consideration. (Hear, hear.) He had devoted his attention during the last two or three days to putting the principal measures to be brought on into proper form, and had been successful, with one or two exceptions, and the Bills were printed, and would probably be laid on the table in the course of the day. The law on electoral matters was at present scattered among twenty or thirty different Acts, and the franchises were nine or ten in number. It was proposed to repeal the whole of the Acts, and to put the new law into one measure, and the franchise qualifications would be simply two, the freehold (£25), and the residential—a year in the colony and six months in a district. (Hear, hear.) Ou this point the Government were perfectly unanimous in opinion. These two qualifications would do away with that most objectionable of all franchises, the minors' right. (Hear, hear.) It was proposed, however, to facilitate the work of reform, to pass the different items (the qualification, registration, &c.) in eight or nine different short Bills, and when all were passed to embody them iu an electoral code. As to registration, it would be the duty of the registration officer to be responsible that all those qualified should bo upon the roll. The present mode of registration was as bad as it could possibly be, and involved far too much trouble to all concerned By their proposed amendments care would be taken that all who ought to be on the roll should be there, and all who had no right there should be off, and for this the registration officer would be made directly answerable. Disputed claims to be on the roll were to be decided by a Resident Magistrate. The present mode of trying election petitions by members of the House of Representatives was most unsatisfactory. It was the worst tribunal —he had sat upon it himself—to be conceived. Following the English precedent, they proposed to make Judges of the Supreme Court the future tribunal to hear elections petition cases. As to finance, the Hon. Major Atkinson had been making efforts to arrive at the real financial condition of the colony, and he was sorry to say that that condition was found to be of an unsatisfactory character. It was evident that either the expenditure would have to be largely reduced, or the revenue greatly increased, if a serious deficit was to be avoided. The Government were determined to attempt no patchwork, but to look the whole difficulty in the face. However, that matter more fully pertained in detail to another place, and in due time a full statement on the subject would be laid before the Assembly and the country. Native matters were at present in a most unsatisfactory condition. As his hearers were aware, there had been recent disturbances at several places in this island. There was now a large number of prisoners in their gaols, and with them they were in the position of the man who held the wolf by the ears—it was dangerous to hold on and dangerous to let go. Government intended to appoint a commission to consider the whole subject, and to examine into the alleged grievances of the natives. The Ministry would do its utmost to bring the present state of affairs with the Maoris to an end, for its longer continuance would be fraught with danger. They would try to attain a peaceable settlement, for a war, as all experienced colonists must know, would be, as it had been before, disastrous ; but there had of late been offences that must be stopped at all hazards. As to the late Thames affair, Mr. James Mackay was now in the district, and till his report was received the Government could take no steps to punish the offenders there. The whole native question demanded the most earnest attention of the Ministry and of Parliament. The three most important and pressing objects to be taken in hand by the Government were electoral, financial, and native reforms. The Government were fully conscious as to the urgency and need of other reforms, and as far as time would permit and the Assembly was to sit they would be attempted, but even if they only effected, this session, the three great objects he had mentioned they would do very well. Circumstances, at present, he must admit, did not look very favorable for their accomplishment, and there might be some difficulty owing to the lateness of the period of their sitting. The question of dealing with native lands would receive the anxious consideration of the Government, though to pass a thoroughly comprehensive Bill on the subject mi oh t be impossible this session. The Government, however, intended to introduce Bills for the amendment of the Land Courts, and also to reduce the price of Crown lands,, especially that sold on deferred payments. He would explain more in detail the different measures to be introduced on other occasions. A great aim of the Government in all their measures would be to reduce the bulk of the statutes by getting their purpose condensed within as small a compass as possible. (Hear, hear.) Himself and his colleagues were determined to use their most strenuous exertions in the directions he had indicated, and he felt sure of the cordial co-operation of that branch of the Legislature he had just had the honor of addressing. (Applause.) The 'FLni. Colonel WHITMORE assured the ]!■; . "• Whitaker that in making some remark- • = appointment he had carefully guarded ; ;.-i by saying that if an outsider was to be chosen his hon. friend would be the very man he should wish to see come among them. Mr. Whitaker had given great services to the colony which had never been adequately recognised. (Hear, hear.) He

had spoken without the least shade of personal feeling. He would ask his hon. friend what c eirse he intended to take with the public business in that Chamber in view of the state of affairs of another ilacc.

The Hon, Mr. WHITAKER was entirely in the hands of the Council. Ho thought uonpoliticil business might be gone ou with. The Hou. Colonel WHIT BORE moved that the Council should adjourn till Friday. It was their invariable rule to adjourn when a no-confidence vote was ueuding. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE thought the two committees proposed on the paper should be appointed. Many hou. members would thus be given work to do who might otherwise have nothing to engage them but loiteriug in the streets.

The Hon. Colonel BRETT would move an amendment, —That the adjournment should bo till Tuesday. He was not afraid of being compelled to loiter in the streets, as his hon. friend sugge>ted. No. He intended to go iuto the country, to escape the stinks and smells of this abominable city. He intended to renovate his health, and should press his amendment to a division.

The Hon. Captain FRASER said there might be another Government in by Friday. They should not adjourn longer. After considerable discussion, during which many hon. members congratulated the Hon. the Attorney-General on his appointment,

The Hou. Mr. WHITAKER said they would be obliged to meet next day to pass a Financial Bill. It was found necessary to increase the deficiency Bills from £IOO,OOO to £600,000.

The Council agreed to this course. COMMITTEES.

The Hou. Sir F. BELL moved a resolution (previously published) for the appointment of a committee to inquire and report on the railway contracts let during the last two rears. —The motion was carried, with au amendment that the committee should also examine and report ou the deficiencies of the Audit Department. The Hon. (Mr. HOLMES moved the appointment of a committee to consider the question of auditing the accounts of public companies. The mover said he hoped the Government would introduce a short Bill on tha subject.—Motion carried. The Council rose at 4.10 p.m, HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Tuesday, October 14. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30. GENERAL. Several petitions were presented, notices of motion given, and papers and reports laid upon the table. PRIVATE BILLS. The Church Property Trust (Canterbury) Bill was read a second time, ou the motion of the Hon. John Hall. The New Plymouth Gas Company's Bill was, on the motiou of Mr. Kelly, read a third time and passed. TELEGRAPH AT WAIKARI. Iu reply to a question by Mr. SAUNDERS, The Hon. JOHN HALL said that the Government would take steps to establish a telegraph station this year at Waikari. MEMBERS OP THE NELSON WASTE LANDS BOARD. Mr, PITT asked the Minister of Lands, — Upon whose recommendation Messrs. Joshua Bird and Jolm Kerr were lately appointed members of this Board ; and if ha would lay papers ou the subject on tha table of the House 1 The Hon. Mr. ROLLESTON said the papers if produced would not show at whose recommendation the appointments were made. The Government would, however, cause the papers to be laid upon the table. DRAINAGE BILL. Iu answer to a question from Mr. Seymour, The Hou. Mr. ROLLESTON replied that the Government would introduce a Drainage Bill during the present session. EXPLANATION. The Hon. Mr. HALL wished to make a personal statement in connection with the late want of confidence motion. It had been stated by the hon. member for the Thames that ho (Mr. Hall) had said he would appoint a particular Maori Minister, and that he would stop all sale aud lease of Maori laud. He was entirely in error. He had made no such statement.

Mr. J. SHEEHAN said he had heard the statement made in the House himself by Tomoana, but of course if the Hun. the Premier said that lie had not made such a statement, he has bound to believe him.

The Hon. Mr. HALL then described what had taken place between himself and Tomoana, and said he had a written statement of what had actually occurred, and which would exonerate him from any charges of the kind that had been made against him. Nothing had taken place at that meeting which he should be ashamed of, or which he would object to see published in every newspaper in the colony. That statement was signed by Messrs. Ormond, Eolleston, and Beetham. (Mr. Hall read the statement in question.) He should not have thought it necessary to make hia explanation if the report had not gone beyond the walls of the House. He would also state that a gentleman who had sat next to him (Mr. Hall) had told him that the Maori member was misinterpreted. (Mr. Sheehan : Name?) Mr. Ormond. (Mr. Sheehan : Why, he does not speak Maori.) Mr. Ormond did speak Maori, though he was not perhaps so well acquainted with the manners and customs of the native race as the hou. member for the Thames.

Mr, SHE EFT AX repeated what his i ‘,crpretation of Tomoana's speech was, and read from Hansard, which he stated had been disgracefully garbled on the subject of that speech. But even now that statement con. firmed what he (Mr. Sheehan) had said. At the same time he accepted the explanation, but was still of opinion that the words had been made use of in that House.

Mr. SEDDOX said as the interpreter had been aspersed, the matter ought to be sifted to the bottom. MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. The Hon. JOHN HALL then, proceeded to address the House as to the Government policy. Thanks to the exertions of the Attorney General, the Electoral and other Bills had been drawn up. He would ask leave to introduce some of those Bills then, and the rest on the next day. The Government had lost no time in bringing these measures down. With regard to the land legislation, they proposed to go on with the Bill prepared by the late Government, with some slight alterations. He would not trouble the House with tha question of finance, as it was the intention of the Treasurer to make a financial statement in the evening, and the Hon. the Native Minister would (make his statement on Thursday or Friday. He would state briefly some of the intentions of the Government with regard to the natives. They proposed to intr (luce a Bill which would be acceptable to natives and whites alike. Averylargeexpenditnrewasgoing on consequent on the West Coast troubles. They were suffering greatly from this and also from the taking of the settlers from their occupations. They felt bound to put an end to this state of things. They were aware that allegations had been made that certain promises had been broken, and that the natives had right on their side. The Government proposed te have a Royal Commission to inquire into the whole subject. They hoped they would at an early date put an end to the present condition of things without any risk to life or limb. They believed the present law with regard to the alienation of lands was unsatisfactory and cumbersome. Three or four years ago the conduct of the Government had caused such dissatisfaction among the natives that it was determined to put an end to the then existing state of things which the Native Minister had promised should be done, but had fulfilled that promise. A proposal had been made by which the Government should sell land on behalf of of the natives, and the Government looked favorably upon that proposal, but whether they would be able to bring forward and complete such a scheme during the present session was more than he could say. They proposed with regard to advertising to distribute their advertisements to all papers that were suitable, without any regard to their [politics. (Loud applause.) Whatever Government was in office that must be done. In connection with the Government steamers it was proposed to lay up one of them from time to time. In conclusion, he could assure the House that the Government was now ready to go on with the business of the country. (Applause.)

ELECTIONS BIL*. . The Hon. Mr HALL asked leave to introduce “ a Bill to amend the law relating to electors qualified to vote at elections of the members of the House of Representatives. In the course of hia remarks to the House Mr. Hall said as large a proportion of people were on the electoral roll of New Zealand as in any part of the Australian Colonies. At the same time an improvement could be made by giving the people greater facilities in registration and votino- than they had at present. Something had been said as to his conduct in regard to this Biff on former occasions. He never shrank from expressing an opinion, and had no reason to regret the result; and he thought

in that connection justice had not been done to him. (Mr. Hall proceeded to explain the constitution of the Bill at some length.) Mr. MACANDREW rose, amid applause, and moved his no-confidence motion. The SPEAKER did not think it was competent to move such an amendment. Mr. MACANDREW then said there would be nothing left for the Opposition but to oh. ject to every measure introduced by the Government until they first learned whether or no they possessed the confidence of the House. (Hear, hear.) He assured them that they were anxious to go on with the business of the country. With the exception, therefore, of No. 12 (the Public Revenues Act) they would oppose every measure on the Order Paper.

Mr. PITT asked if the measures were now rejected they could be introduced again during the present session. The SPEAKER replied in the negative.

Mr. MONTGOMERY held that according to “ May's Parliamentary Practice” a Bill could be reintroduced, and read extracts from that work to support his contention. Some discussion ensued on the subject, in which the Hon. Mr. Hall, Mr. Pyke, Sir Geo. Grey, &c., took part. The latter was ruled out of order by the Speaker, upon which he said he would move the adjournment of the House, hut did not do so.

Mr. SHEEHAN moved that the debate be adjourned until half-past seven o’clock, for the purpose of hearing Major Atkinson’s Irinanci d Statement before proceeding any farther with the business of the House.

The Government agreed to the proposal for adjournment. Mr. BE LAUTOUR held that the first order asked for by the Ministerial party could not be gone on with till another measure on the same subject, also on the paper, had been disposed of. The Hon. JOHN HALT, replied, and contended there was nothing to prevent hon. members from introducing any number of Bills if they desired to do so. The House then adjourned. On the House resuming at 7.30,

Major ATKINSON rose to make his Einancial Statement. He said the circumstances under which he had the honor of addressing the House that evening were of such an exceptional character, and the demand* of the Opposition were so imperious, that he had been compelled to disregard what he thought to be a very wise rule in that House with regard to the Einancial Statement, or rather a statement on finance, which was that that statement should be submitted by the Government to the House in the shape of a carefully written document. He did not at all believe in the officer of the Treasury coming down to make what was called an ordinary speech from notes. To his mind the plan which was adopted in the Australian Colonies of carefully considering the financial matters of the colony, and putting them in the form of a written document, was, he thought, a far preferable mode of dealing with such a question than of making a speech ns he was about to do that evening. The finance of the country had not been dealt with at all for some fifteen months, and the colony was, he ventured to say, in a complete state of darkness regarding their real financial position. It was not his business on the present occasion to ask why the colony was in that position, but he took it that what the House wanted now was that ho should speak to the question, and give a broad outline as to the state of the finance, so that hon. members might he in a position to know what was their monetary position, and to turn over in their minds the question he had to deal with. As they had had no statement for fifteen months, he must ask hon. members to bear with him while ho took them back to the financial position of the country in 1878 9, when there was an actual Treasury balance, and it was estimated that the year would begin with a surplus of £120,000. He should of course use round numbers in all cases that evening, in order that hon. members might more easily follow him. In the report of his speech, however, the correct figures would be inserted. The' hon. gentleman the then Colonial Treasurer had apparently begun the year with £120,000. But the amount that could be looked upon as an actual balance was £116,000. The expenditure proposed by the late Government for the year 1878-9 was £4,200,000. It would be in the recollection of hon. members who were in the last Parliament that a table was presented by the late Colonial Treasurer (Sir George Grey) at the end of last session, showing the saving which had been effected on the votes of the House. The total expenditure as shown by .that table was £3,650,000, showing an apparent saving of £550,000. But this total was entirely misleading without a proper explanation ; the truth being that there was no saving at all in the ordinary sense during that year. In the first place they must take off from the apparent saving the outstanding liabilities—which had almost all been paid—amounting to £348,000 ; and having taken this off, the hon. gentlemen would find the balance saving made up of small items. £IOO,OOO had been voted last year out of the supposed balance of the previous year for the Public Works fund. Hon. members would recollect that it was proposed to transfer this to the Public Works fund, but unfortunately the sum had never been paid over. There was also another item of £68,000 which was an over estimate of twenty per cent, on the land fund. There was another item of £47,000, which was an over estimate of the amount of the interest required, and therefore that was not due. Hon. members, on reference to the tables which he should place ou the table, would see that more than the whole balance of the savings were made up of items of a similar character to those he had named. The total payments on account of the year amounted to £4,000,000. He would presently refer to one or two special classes of expenditure, to which he thought the very serious attention of the House should be given. Hon. members would recollect that it was estimated the total receipts would be £4,045,000, but in reality the receipts from all sources of revenue only produced £3,650,000. The decrease arose from the falling-off in the land revenue of £360,000, and on the other items of £30,000 ; but there was an increase in the Customs of £96,000. The total receipts, instead of being £4,000,000, only amounted to £3,650,000. Subtracting the revenue from the expenditure, hon. members would find at the end of the year there was a deficiency of £l3l,ooo—that was to say, at the end of this year they began with a deficiency of that amount. They began the year with £116,000 to their credit and £130,000 to their debit, so that looking upon their receipts they did not come up to the expenditure by £158,000, Ho hoped hon. gentlemen would bear that in mind, they would then understand better the figures he was giving on the subject. He should point out that this deficiency was partly caused through the amount of £50,000 land tax not being collected. He wished to call the attention-of the House to that fact, because when those Estimates were made it was calculated that this £50,000 laud tax would come out of that revenue, and so far reduce the deficiency. He would like to call the attention of the House to one or two questions of the general expenditure. His object in doing this was to show that they were, notwithstanding these things, not exercising any economy whatever in their public services, although they had heard a good deal on that subject in the House. They bad been told that there was a great deal of extravagance in their services, and the late Government had pledged themselves to reduce the expenditure, but they had not retrenched in any way that he could find out ; and to show that he was accurate in this respect, he should lay the tables of which he had spoken on the table of the House. They would then see that it would be necessary for them to take the whole matter into their very serious consideration, and adopt some steps to place the finance of the colony on a satisfactory footing. Speaking about the various departmental expenses, the hon. gentleman proceeded to say that he might take nine of the principal departments, excluding of course surveys, education, and public works, as au evidence that there had not been retrenchment. Those departments were Law and Justice, Postal and Telegraph, Customs, Marine, Native, Militia and Volunteers, Constabulary, and Public Domains and Buildings. The estimated cost of those departments for 1877-78, was £866,216, but they cost that year £876,397. He found that that year the expenditure was £IO,OOO more bringing up the amount of £876,000. The estimated expenditure for the same departments in IS7S-9 was £903,000, which bon. members would observe was a gradual increase notwithstanding all that had been preached on the subject of economy. Honorable members would not be gratified to find that that year, notwithstanding this incre -- e in the votes of the House, the amount ab-o'-c l v expended was £956,000. So much for the • nomy that was to be practised in these departments, and which, according to the statement of honorable gentlemen on the Goverrnment benches, ought to have been practised. In those nine departments to which he had referred, the expenditure had risen from £366,000 to £956,000 during the half year just passed. Now, let them look at

the matter of native affairs. Xu 1876-7, native affairs cost £34,000. Tn 1877-8 that amount had been incroa-ed to .€48,000, and in 1-78-0 it was still further increased to £S?,OTt :6o they would see there had been a steady but : >v no moans gradual increase in all til*; - lop -r"e. u 1 1 —a steady and a r, -n- iderable increase, la tee second year the Native Depart nent in c ased in expenditure, which was almost entirely due to the cost of native school-, .Vi fur teas vac a very excellent arrangement, so long as the schools were properlv conducted, which was a matter trial it v/as not now their ba-ine-w to inquire into. That salaries in connection with this department had cost on the average £19,000, but last year had been reduced to £15,000. Then the amount_ for contingencies in connection with native affairs had risen from £4OOO to £lo,ooo—that was to say, a habit was growing up of upending large amounts of monies, under the heading of con tingeneie-s, that were not submitted to that House, This wa< a matter which lie hoped would bo looked into. He found that some enormous expenses were incurred in this way. Eor instance, £4OOO hud he-n expends! nv-ir the Kojma meeting, and £IOOO over the meeting afc VVaitara. There were issued during th i year £184,000 in Treasury bills. He merely mentioned thin; but it did not affect the balance one way or the other. The estimated expenditure of the late Government, deducting the sum of £140,000 for future contingent defence, wan in round numbers £3 } 07 I V<00. This was exclusive also of the sum of £125,000, which the Government merely collected, and then handed over to local bodies. He had omitted this in order to give tlie question greater simplicity. He did not in any way wish to commit them to tlie expenditure—he merely stated what he found in the office ; but he did not wish to commit the present Government to that, because from the brief time they had been in office he Had not been able to go into figures with sufficient minuteness. Erom what he had been able to learn of their predecessors’ expenditure he could not say there was anything unreasonable in it, and if the present system was to be continued, he did not think they would be able to reduce it to any very great extent. This expenditure included the sura of £1,300,000 for sinking fund and interest, and the sum of £279,000 for subsidies to local bodies, and £56,000 that was payable on account of the land fund He might be here permitted to state in connection with this fund that he regretted that the Government had not brought into operation the Inscribed Stock Act. He believed if that Act had been in force the colony would have derived a very considerable advantage from it; and this advantage would have been all the greater had the one man who took a very great interest in it (Sir Julius Vogel) received the appointment at an earlier date. But he had only been recently appointed, and consequently did not take that interest in the matter which he probably otherwise would have done. The estimated revenue, as prepared by the late Government, amounted to £8,442,00(1, which was made up as follows:—For taxation, £1,500,000; for the services of the country, £1,306,000; and from the land fund, £500,000. The estimated expenditure, inclusive of the £140,000 for contingentdefence, amounted to £3,970,000, and if from that they deducted the amounts to which he had previously referred they would arrive at a deficiency for the year of £532,000. If to that they added the deficiency with which they had begun the year they would get a deficiency of £663,000 for the present year. He would stop there, but he would not be doing his duty to the House if he did not tell it that ho did not think the Estimates prepared by the late Government would be realised. He had had the advantage of having the experience of a few months of this year, and therefore was better able to estimate what the revenue would be than his predecessor. He had considered the whole matter as carefully as he could, and he believed the figures would be as nearly as possible an approximate of those which he was going to give the House. The present Government’s estimate of the taxation which they would receive was £1,500,000; for the services referred, £1,300,000; and for land revenue £380,000 instead of the £500,000 as was named by the late Colonial Treasurer, He put the Customs down at £1,200,000, and the other departments he had only reduced by a small amount, leaving the railway department as estimated by the department itself. If they took this revenue from the proposed expenditure and added to it the deficiency of £131,000 with which the year was begun they would find there was a total deficiency on the year, which must be provided for in some way or another out of £912,000. The sum mentioned was so large that he had no doubt it would take hon. members somewhat by surprise and some time to realise. It meant that that House must very seriously turn its attention towards considering the question of tho financial condition of the country. And it meant that not a moment must be lost in doing so. It was not his business there to make any remarks as to how this state of affairs had arisen. That would be a matter that must be gone into ultimately, when tho present unfortunate struggle in which they were engaged was over. He considered that it was his duty to submit these facts to the House. And that brought him to the reason he had in asking the House to pass this Public Revenues Bill through all its stages that evening. He might tell the House that when ho took the position of Treasurer he found the public account in this stale—that the receipts during the quarter then just ended did not come up to the payments then being made by some £330,000 ; that the late Government had issued £400,000 of deficiency bills, and had used the whole of the proceeds. No provision had been made to pay the subsidies now due, or to make other payments which were absolutely necessary to make. So soon as he found this was the position of affairs, he was at once bound to come down to that House and ask for relief. And this Bill was a measure which the Government found necessary tobriugforward, as they wished to take power to issue £200,000 of deficiency hills. They proposed to ask the House tn pass this Bill in order to provide for the public services for the months of October and November. By that time he hoped the House would have determined how the deficiency to which he had referred would be dealt with. It would have been improper to do more in the present state of things than to submit a temporary remedy to provide the cash to meet present requirements till the House had determined how the matter of finance should be disposed of. For this reason he asked the House to pass the Bill. It would require the sum of £150,000 or £200,000. He now came to the position of the Public Works. They had had a short, and he thought, as the House had stated, a satisfactory statement of the general position of the public works of the colony from the-Minister of Public Works last session. He proposed just to mention the transaction of last year in order that hon. members might have the matter thoroughly in their mind. At the beginning of the year 187 S-9, they had for the public work., of the colony the sum of £2,056,000. Some of them then hoped that this fund was going to be augmented by some £700,000, which it was proposed should be got by the land fund, and the sum of £IOO,OOO it was proposed to take from the consolidated fund. He need hardly tell the House that no relief was received from those sources. So that they only had the £2,056,000 at their disposal for public works. Of £517,000, £300,000 was advanced, so that they really began tho year with only £217,000 to the good. He wished to ask the House to seriously consider the question of the expenditure for the last quarter, because it was now affecting the five million loan. The expenditure for the September quarter amounted to £712,000, so that they had actually, spent by the 30th of September £500,000 of the £5,000,000 loan. From inquiry he found they had enteredintofurther engagements fromwhioh there was no escape whatever, and they must find the money. They had got to pay by the 30th December next the sum of £733,000, and there were further engagements upon which they would have to pay-by the 30th of June next the sum of £902,000 more. In other words, by the 30th of June next, upon works which they were already committed to, and without any new works whatever they would have spent the sum of £2,160,000 out of the five million loan. (Mr. Macandrew: That is a mistake.) The member for Port Chalmers said these figures were a mistake. Of course he could only go by the figures which had been furnished to him by the Under-Secretary to the department over which the hon. gentleman (Mr. Macandrew) had had control. He had gone over them himself very carefully. He had enquired of the Under-Secretary whether they were absolutely correct, and was assured that such was the fact. That seemed to him a sufficiently good authority for the statements he had made. (Hear, hear.) He was very much startled when ho found the amount so large, and he took pains to consider whether it could be lessened, but he found from the officer whom he had mentioned that it was impossible to reduce it. Included in this £2,160,000, £200,000 was for the

purchase of f.ative lands, and of this they had alee idy spent £17,000, and were engaged to spend up to the end of this year £34,000 more. They had a further liability upon these lauds, without they were to abandon them, a liability in which they had engaged to the amount of £957,000, in round numbers a million, more than provided to purchase native lands, Ihey had also contracts now Jet from the Public Works Department to provide after June next £123,000 more than had been provided for. H i was not going to say at the present time as regarded the policy of completing the purchase of the native lands, as that could be discussed presently ; it was only his duty now to lay before them the facts he had gained from the officers of the departments, and he was informed that nearly a million more would he required in June. What he desired to point out to the House was this, that they had actually spent up to September, including half a million of the new loan, £700,000 ; hyJune next they had intended to spend over £■2,000,000 and this before they had decided news from Horae as to whether they were likelv to get any of !'. Th w had so conducted'their affairs that they had not considered it wrong or inadvisable to pledge the credit of the colony in this way, without the slightest knowledge as to whether they could meet their engagements or not. That, to his mind, was a most serious position for the colony to take up. It was beginning at the wrong end. They were bound to be assured that they would get the money before they proceeded to spend it. It was not for him to say how far the loan would go off ; he could only ho pelt would go off. The credit of the colony, fortunately, had hitherto been very good, but rmthingcould justify them in spending tjie money at the rate they were doing before they got it. That was the position of their finances at the present time. He would simply say, in conclusion, that he was very much obliged to the House for the patience with which they had heard him, and he regretted that the tale he had to tell was not of a more cheerful nature; hut it had been his lot to elucidate these facts and it was clear his business was to trace out, in a bold outline, our finances as they now are and leave hon. members to fill in the picture by the information contained in the table be would place before them in the course of a few days. The position was an exceedingly grave one and would require the serious and immediate attention of the House. (Hear, hear.) If they were not to get into very great difficulties they would have many things to turn their attention to in regard to this matter. It seemed to him that it was absolutely necessary that they should at the present time have a Government not only capable but sufficiently strong—(Applause)—to govern in the interests of the colony and not of the party. Whether they hoped by their present party conflicts to get good government he left it to hon. members to decide, but he submitted that it was their business now to turn their immediate attention to this great difficulty, and to devise some scheme which would make their financial position better for the future. (Applause.) Sir GEORGE GREY trusted the House would accede to the motion. It must have proceeded from the late Government, if they had remained in office. Referring to the statement that for fifteen months the House had been left in ignorance of the financial position of the colony, he said that during that time the quarterly accounts had been published in a simpler form than ever before, and anv gentleman who had taken the trouble to add up the figures could have made a statement similar to Major Atkinson’s. The reason no financial statement was made was because the Governor adopted an extraordinary and unconstitutional course after the defeat and before the dissolution ; viz, that no contested motions should be brought down. The blame of the financial statement not being brought down before this session rested with the Opposition. If the Government had made a sudden reduction in the expenditure to compensate for the falling off in the land revenue, they would have ruined the country. He believed the colony to be in a thoroughly sound condition. The late Government had prepared measures which but for the unconstitutional conduct of the Governor would have been in operation, and which would have met the deficiency. The taxation which they proposed would not. have pressed unduly on classes unable to bear them. If the present Government adopted the same course of taxation they would receive the support of that side of the House. If a wise course of legislation were adopted he believed the colony would continue to advance with the marvellous rapidity it had always exhibited. Mr. WALTER JOHNSTON suggested that the better course would be to issue Treasury bills, as giving the House more control over the expenditure. It would be far better to issue Treasury bills. The Hon. Major ATKINSON agreed entirely with the hon. member respecting Treasury bills, but this Bill was only intended as a temporary measure to last till the end of the year. The Hon. JOHN HALL replied to the remarks of hon. members opposite, and in the course of his observations asked how many men were there in the country or in the House who would realise the position of affairs from the figures placed before them by the late Treasurer. The complaint was that the late Premier did not make a Einancial Statement. The remarks made by the gentleman who had just acted as Colonial Treasurer ought to carry weight—namely, that the colony was in a sound financial position ; but no figures had been submitted to bear that statement out Referring to the native land question, he said he hoped before the session closed to have full figures laid before them of the result of native land sales, and, so tar from having any profit at all, he thought there would be a dead loss.

Mr. BALLANCE criticised the statement of the Treasurer, and said he thought the Government should make a full statement of affairs, which was all the more desirable, as the finances of the colony had been kept in tho dark for the last fourteen or fifteen months. He asked the hon. gentleman it he had never drawn upon a loan before it was raised ? He (Mr. Ballance) said it had been a common practice to anticipate loans before they were raised, Referring to Treasury bills, he did not think it made much difference whether they were raised or not. The time had come for increasing the power which should exist for the extension of Treasury bills. When he left the Treasury the expenses of that department were less than when he took charge, and he believed other departments were similarly situated. He replied at great length to the arguments. Referring to native affairs, he said he thought the alliance of Rewi would save expense in the Waikato. Coming to the West Coast troubles, he said for years past, while other Governments were in office, Te Whiti was increasing in power to do mischief, and this was a circumstance entirely beyond the control of the Government. Had it not been for this, the anticipations from the land revenue would have been realised.

Mr. McLEAN disputed the anticipation made by the late Treasurer, that so large a sum would bo raised from the land revenue. The hon. the late Premier had told the people on his stumping tour that the Opposition had prevented the settlement of the Waimate Plains, which he said was incorrect. The late Premier had not intended to settle these plains. He referred to the last speaker (Mr. Ballance) as a man who had sold his master for thirty pieces of silver, and went on to speak of him as a man who had written of Sir. Geo. Grey as a coward. Mr. BALLANCE rose to order, and stigmatised this remark as a lie, for he had never written a line upon the subject.

The SPEAKER drew the attention of Mr. Ballance to the fact that his language was unparliamentary. Mr. BALLANCE withdrew the expression, but said the statement of Mr. McLean was utterly untrue. Mr. McLEAN withdrew what he had said, but said if Mr. Ballance did not write it, he had dictated the article.

Mr. BALLANCB again denied this. Mr. Me LEAN said his reason for referring to the matter was because Mr. Ballance had left the Government on the eve of the meeting of Parliament, which he should not have done. He then went on to refer to the finances of the colony, and said that the Colonial Treasurer last session had kept them waiting a fortnight for a statement, and then came down to the House and mumbled a few words, and then read a verse of the Appropriation Bill. (Laughter.) He then blamed the reporters for not taking his statement down, but there was no wonder when it was not uttered. Each member of the House knew the condition of the colony, and must know that it was such as to cause them to expect a large deficiency in the revenue. The revenue would continue to decrease under present circumstances. He had opposed the purchasing of native lands, and thought the system was bad, as it gave rise to squandering the money. It should be stopped. (Hear, hear.) If the native troubles had been going on as the last speaker bad said they were, why did not the Government bring the matter before the House. Ho thought the native troubles,

like our other trouble?, had arisen simply because the late Govcfruu-u.!. had .'iHn-.'.'ed affairs to drift. (Hear, he;.:.; K-.- cit upon the various proofs of maladministration of which the late Government were guilty. They had done an injury to the Civil .Service of the colony which it would t.:ke a long time to recover. They had established a species of terrorism in the service, and amongst other things they had appointed a gentlemen to go home to England to lecture at £6OO a year. The late Premier had telegraphed to England in February for more immigrants, the result of which had been that immigrants had been poured into Wellington in the dead of winter, when there was nothing for them to do. How would he reconcile this telegram with his statements to the Wellington audiences ? He (Mr. McLean) was truly glad they had seen the end of their mismanagement, and he expressed the opinion that the motion to be discussed next day would strengthen the hands of the Government. Mr. MOSS defended the late Government from the charges made against them, to the effect that they had attempted to hide from the House the financial position of the country. The ordinary revenue had not fallen off very much, it being only the land revenue that had fallen off so greatly. He denied that they had wasted money in the purchase of native lands, and said previous Governments were to blame for buying lands that were locked up. Mr. READER WOOD criticised the action of the present Government, and in a powerful speech contended that the Opposition last session, with their majority of fourteen, were to blame for not having compelled a financial statement. A strong Government was wanted to carry on the affairs of the country, and he did not know where they were going to get one. One had just been put out by a majority of two, and the other was about to be displaced by a majority of four. (Cries of No, and cheers.) He thought whatever Government was in power they should put the financial affairs of the country on a sound footing. In reply to Mr. McLean, concerning the way in which the late Government had appointed people to the Civil Service, he said Mr. McLean was a member of Sir Julius Vogel’s Ministry when people were placed in the Civil Service by shoals. So great had the evil become that a Bill had to be brought in to prevent members being imported into the Civil Service. The late Government in the wrong doing had only followed in the footsteps of their predecessors. Mr. WAKEFIELD expressed his surprise at the way in which the Colonial Treasurer’s statement had been received. He did not think that hon. gentleman was to blame for bringing down a true statement of the financial affairs of the colony, and he defended that hon. gentleman’s statement from the strictures of hon. members. Sir George Grey had had ‘ every opportunity afforded him last session for making his financial statement, but had not done so, and the weakness with which the Opposition were now charged was the result of the moderation they had exercised towards the late Government. The hon. gentleman, last session, had no grasp of the financial affairs, and knew no more about them than a child. He could not even say on which aide the balance was, whether to debit or credit. He (Mr. Wakefield) admitted that it was unpopular to reduce the public expenditure, hut ho considered it wo,a a necessary thing to do, however much it might damage the popularity of the Government. The expenses should be cut down in the Native Department. The expenditure upon native affairs had actually exceeded an extravagant vote by £IB,OOO. He thought the Government would gain the respeotof the country for proposing to act in what was said was an unpopular manner. Fte referred to Sir Geo. Grey’s remark concerning the action of the Governor in stipulating that there should be no contested motion, and said that this need not have precluded the Government from stating what their financial policy was. The Governor had said in his memorandum that Ministers must accept the whole responsibility of a dissolution, and it was therefore unfair to attempt to blame the Opposition for what had occurred. Ministers should have resigned at once, and have allowed their successors to bring in a financial policy. He denied that the statement to-night was, as Mr. Ballance had said of it, highly colored, and he said he entirely believed the statement. He dwelt at some length upon the state of native affairs, and criticised the remarks of the member for Wanganui with reference to finance. Mr. Ballance depended almost entirely upon land revenue, and this source Mr. Macandrew depended upon for his requirements, and they had been likened to twobearsclimbing apole and each endeavoring to ait upon the same round piece of wood on the top. They had been cautioned that the pole would not bear them, and this had proved correct. The alliance of Rewi, which had cost ao much, and which it had been said was so cheap even at the amount expended, had not realised what it was anticipated it would, for there was still a large force maintained on the Waikato frontier. The money expended upon the Kopua meeting had been squandered, and squandering of the money wrung from the people by taxation was what they objected to. He thought the land revenue should be devoted to no other purpose but the repayment of loans. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Ballance) and his colleagues had themselves alone to blame for the falling off in the revenue. With reference to Mr. Ballance quitting the Ministry just before the House met last session, Mr. Wakefield said he regretted that what had been said to have occurred had been published as a public scandal, and he animadverted strongly upon Mr. Ballance never having yet vouchsafed an explanation of why he had left the Government. He blamed the late Government for trying to .carry on the expenditure of the Vogel Ministry, without providing for the necessary revenue to meet their requirements. Speaking of Mr. Reader Wood’s remarks to the effect that the Opposition last session should have compelled a financial statement, Mr. Wakefield said they had tried for days to get a statement from the Premier, but they could not get blood from granite, neither could they get a statement from his hon. friend, who knew nothing whatever about figures. Mr. Wakefield replied to various statements made by Hr. Reader Wood. (Applause.) Mr. VINCENT PYKE said it was the Ministry who were obstructing the business of the country by a factious opposition. (Hear, hear.) He had come down that night prepared to hear an exposure of some great public scandals, but he had not done so. He ventured to say there were not ten members in the House who did not know quite as much before Major Atkinson commenced his speech as they did when he had finished. He challenged the Government to go on with the business at once, and not further delay the business of the country. (Laughter.) Mr. TURNBULL addressed the House on behalf of the Opposition. Speaking of the deficiency referred to by the hon. member for Egmont, Mr. Turnbull said he attributed this in a very great measure to the hon. member himself. His own opinion was that such reductions might he made in the Estimates as to bring the expenditure of the country within the receipts. He was quite sure that Major Atkinson could just as well have shown a surplus of £500,000 as he had an apparent deficiency of such a large amount. Mr. MONTGOMERY thought that the Hon. the Colonial Treasurer had taken an unnecessarily gloomy view of things, which would probably do a great deal of harm to the colony. He characterised the action of the late Opposition as indecent in forcing on a want of confidence motion before the Colonial Treasurer had had an opportunity of making his financial statement. Mr. Montgomery proceeded to criticise at length the statement in question, and admitted that the finances of the country were in a very grave condition, demanding their most serious consideration.

There being no other speakers, Major ATKINSON proceeded to reply. He must say that it the Opposition really wanted to discuss finance, he would recommend them to get up a little better on the question of fiuauce, and to be a little more accurate in their statements. He made special reference to the hon member for Akaroa. The whole time he (the speaker) was in office there had only been the sum of £1,300,000 borrowed, of which sum he left in the Treasury when he left it the sum of £1,000,000. With regard to the Estimates of the late Ministry he had been informed that they had been very much added to since Mr. Ballance had left the Ministry. With regard to the deficit, it was very easy for gentlemen of cheerful dispositions and no responsibility to talk in an easy way about meeting that deficit. He knew the statement he had made would be au injurious one, but he had a duty to perform, which he was determined not to shrink from. (Hear, hear.) The Customs revenue for the last quarter had been £306,000 —he had therefore estimated it at £1,200,000 for the year. In the same way he had estimated the land fund; and he feared his estimates as made that night would not be materially changed. The Public Works Department sent in their claims to the Treasury in a way that was somewhat remarkable, appearing to ask for money just as it suited them. With regard to the subsidies to local bodies he

would inform the House that it would be quite impossible to cut them off this year, and, for his own part, he was Imivoughly in favor of them, and prepared to sinud up for them when fcha proper time came. (Applause.) In conclusion, he asked leave to suspend the standing orders for the purpose of carrying the Bill through. The Hou»e then went into committee, and the Bill was passed through all its stages, and was adopted by the House without amendment. Some discussion took place on the question of adjournment. The SPEAKER ruled that no new business could be taken after half-past 12, Mr. HXSLOP would ask the Government when they would allow the no-confidence motion to be brought on. The House was addressed by Messrs. Macandrew and Whitaker, and adjourned at 20 minutes past 1.