THE GREAT TE KOPUA MEETING.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXIV, Issue 5653, 13 May 1879, Page 3

THE GREAT TE KOPUA MEETING.

(PROM OUR OWN CORRESPONDENT.) Alexandra, Monday.

The talking recommenced this morning. The Government position is not improved. The meeting will probably result unsatisfactorily. Whanui, and Te Ngakau were the speakers on the Kingite side. Te Wheoro, Petera, Tukano Manganui on the Government side. I have just heard that Grey and party.leave to-morrow. ,

Alexandra, Monday. (per press agency.) 7.30 p.m,

The meeting recommenced at 11 o’clock today. As the Ministerial party proceeded over to the place of meeting they were received by 25 boys, who fired a salute of pop-guns. Te Whanonga warned the assemblage that only two parties would answer the Government side to-day Wahanui and Te Ngakau. Wahanui came over with a body guard, followed by Tawhiao, with about half-a-dozen guns. Wahanui said up to this day the same posts are put up, the poles are three, and the talk must continue until the ropes are tied on to each place. One rope has been pulled from amongst, the three posts, it will he taken on to where the other one will have to he tied. I say this cautions us qs to our meaning, so that we may produce good lawq upon this laud. We must understand the meaning of the Government now that we stretoh it on this day. Te Ngakau t I do not care about Grey nor Tawhiao, but I ask why you accused me of wrong. Grey’s word is perhaps goad, and Tawhiao’s is perhaps the same. We-must judge between us as to my wrong perhaps there is good with both of us. The words mentioned by Tawhiao and Grey clear Tawhiao and Grey, who are judging between the people. I don’t want} to go behind. I want understand how we are to become one. The only way to agree is to talk about matters in dispute. Paul: You want us to pray with your side, but I saw nothing in what you have called us for many years to come here and judge, and now there is nothing to judge. I only came here because of your love. : Te Ngakau : I have always asked you to come and pick out my wrongs, but you found me guilty, and the other day you admitted I was not culpable. This is why I persist in demanding to know my fault. I want to understand my fault, so that we may he one.I want to go fairly. I called this meeting that we might be one. Ido not want to be left in the bush again. I want to know what your promisesg'are. [The meaning of this speech briefly is that Te Ngakau desires to know precisely the Government terms.} Petera Pukuatua (Te Arawa): It is true. I will state my own Te Ngakau. I will tell you your first wrong. You did not consult all the tribes.: The wrong was committed before Potatau was set up. Some you consulted, some you did not. There was sense in Potatau’s injunction, keep pace with the Europeans. After his death, you commenced another wrong (the war). This caused defections in the tribes. I heard no definite cessation of the war, only the words, "Stop fighting.” You have been wrong, but you are in the right path now. If you had consulted all the tribes you might have reached a oleqr understanding. Do not disagree, because he is the Jink between old people on • both sides. I want you to unite (referring to Wahanui.) Yon must not be too eager to speak, but mature your thoughts. Like Europeans, uphold Sir George Grey, because he will not leave us in the lurch. I propose he shall judge us with the assistance of . the chiefs here. There has been peace twerty years. 1 Tengakau : It has been said that there will be no wrong if I uphold Grey, but which way shall I come.

; Petere Pukntau ; There is a road open for you. You will, take no. harm by coming. There will be no wrong on either side. - Te Ngakau : I want a way that will make the people one; hut what is that way I I may come under Grey. I want some security if I come over that any arrangement between us will be upheld continously by future Governments. You do not state (dm conditions ; but say "Come over;”'but I say where is my wrong—show mo the way. Petere Pukutau! You need not demand such hard conditions. I will not discuss your demand—such hard conditions. I will not discuss your demand for the confiscated

lands. This is the Iroad for you. I suppose you desire a firm understanding, but you must not commence with details and proceed to general conditions. You accuse Europeans of stealing land which they purchased fairly, but you should ask Grey to come to your bouse and discuss matters.

Wahanui : I said nothing to separate us. I only placed my words between us. I said, “ Put the sword in its sheath.” That was meant to apply to all New Zealand who divided us from our father Grey. You all know the fault, but you were afraid to strike it. You know the Europeans themselves were divided. Mangonui : Yes, Te Ngakau (what Manganui referred to was a former war, when Ngapuhi gave a woman for a peace making. (Te Ngakau : I do not know that the rope has been removed, because the Toha woman mentioned is still alive.) What is my wrong ? Hone Maho (Ngapuhi) : You severed the rope that bound us together (referring to the separation of Waikato and Ngapuhi after the intermarriage through Tahe after Hangi’s war). You did not wait untd we had done. The evil rope was cut before the King’s covenant by your rejection of the proposals made by our chiefs (Tauro) (Ngatitawa). The rope has not been secured you refer to, the rope that bound us to the Europeans. Tamate Waka wanted to come here to fight the Waikato, but Grey said he had a strong arm to defend himself. A Ngatiwaka said both sides were wrangling, but if they continued he would be there to-morrow. Te Ngakau; I coincide with you. I did not expect to see this. I only ask my wrong. You accuse me of this and that, but you do not make any definite accusation. (It is supposed the object of Te Ngakau in continually demanding his fault was to elicit such an anawer as would absolve him, and leave an opening for him to demand the restoration of his lands confiscated. 8 p.m. Bewi took breakfast and dinner with Mr. Sheehan to-day. The probability of Te Ngakau’s taking a seat in Parliament is being discussed. It was remarked yesterday to one of the Europeans that if matters were satisfactorily arranged Te Ngakau would expect a seat in Parliament.

At 3 o'clock the Ministerial party again came over to the talking ground. The Kingites, not being assembled,, considerable delay occurred, natives mustering very slowly. The delay was caused by the fact that the Kingites had to cook their own ’food after the morning meeting, while the Government party cooks were preparing food while the discussion was proceeding. The King’s party came over at four o’clock, only fifty armed men, and marched in good time. Hauhau prayers were said. All Hauhaus got their hats off. Haireti, of Ngatimaniapoto, read the prayers. Kura, a woman with a child in her arms, led another prayer. Te Wheoeo : My word to you, Wahanui. We can’t answer your words because if we Continue in this way discussion will last a ■month or more; perhaps you had better point out your man. I thought in my mind all the chiefs would coincide with ine. Mention who is in the wrong, because we are now confused, and our talk prolonged. Te Ngakau' : Your word is true. If they coincided with you it would have been well ; but I thought we should not be satisfied with one dish.'. Grey said the other day, “ Let anyone who is without sin among you oast the first stone.” This mystifies me. That is why I say to you come and look over my faults. If I am in fault let me see it. If Tawhiao is the sinner, who must throw the first stone ? He can’t, because he is a sinner. Grey has not put the dish before us in a way we can eat it. ! Te Wheoro : One of you should speak, 'whether he is a sinner or not, or else there will benopeople left ; they will all leave. We must talk of definite matters that will conduce to our future benefit, not argue about detail. Te Ngakau : I have got nothing definite ; I am here to attend to what you have to propose. , The fault belongs to all of us. When We considered Grey’s words we found there was no one against whom to cast stones. : A pause of twenty minutes ensued, during which Sir George Grey sat in a chair under the shelter of an umbrella, looking the very impersonation of patience. ; Sir George Gbet then rose, and walking to the centre and facing the Kingites, addressed them as follows :—Sly friends, chiefs of the various tribes who are here, I will sayafew words to you know. I have heard since I have been here murmurings about two or three complaints from the first. I will say this to you : I, together with Mr. Sheehan, made offers of giving an extent of land to Tawhiao and his people. What I did was not through having any . right of my own for doing it, or of giving anything of my own, but simply as the servant of all the people of New Zealand —as the servant of all of you who hear me amongst others. Now you may all have seen my payment for these services, that three times I have had to come to you at very considerable trouble and annoyance; that I have had many troubles and many discomforts to go through. I have hurt my health by so doing, and that my only object in undergoing these fatigues was to serve you. I wish to do you good. When X made those offers I had/ no power to go back from them or break them, because the people of New Zealand would not have let me do so. The three things I have heard muttered about are, first, the road has been made to Eaglan. To that I answer that there is no ground of complaint whatever. The conversations that I had with you at Hikurangi were to this effect, that if it. was agreeable to you and to Tawhiao that there should be returned to you all . that part of the confiscated lands on the west bank of the Whips, which had riot been sold to Europeans. Now, the road to Baglan runs through our , own land—the lands that belong to the people of New Zealand—lands which had .been fairly purchased, which had never been taken f.s confiscated lands; and it. was right that the Europeans’ at Baglan and the Europeans at Hamilton and Cambridge and other parts of the, colony should have means of communication together, and have means of carrying their produce along that road. It was right for the 1 natives as much as the Europeans. As a servant of the people of New Zealand, I could not have refused to make that road when the Parliament determined that it should be done. Now, that road was in a great part made by yourselves, and I was glad that you got money for the making of it. .1 did you a great benefit in securing that road and that money for you. There was no breach of agreement whatever regarding that work. Now, I will commence a subject regarding, which I have heard ooriiplaints regarding certain sections at Harapipi which have been bought back by the Government from Europeans. Those sections were excluded by my offer to Tawhiao from the lands which be was to have. The words were carefully used that the lands were to be returned to him which had nOt been sold to Europeans. They were excluded from the arrangements, but the Government did not take them for the people of New Zealand. Generally it was believed they had been offered to you by the previous Government, but this Government virtually set them apart as an endowment for a school at. which your children were to be educated, so that you were to have the benefit of these lands. : Further, as I understood, the lands had been offered to you by the previous Government. I inquired into the circumstances before I went to Hikurangi. I understood that you had refused to take the land, and I understood the reason was that the lands being mixed up with farms of Europeans disputes on account of European stock hurting your.cultivations were likely to take place between you and the Europeans. Therefore I did this. I offered you what had never been offered before—rtown acres, in every one of the towns in the Waikato district, so that you might have the means of getting an immediate revenue from your land. Now listen to this. I say there could have been no misunderstanding on my part and upon Mr. Sheehan’s regarding those sections.' But I say this, that if you can show cause to make the people of New Zealand believe that you misunderstood the subject, you - may rely on it the Parliament, as representing the people of New Zealand, would see that . ample , compensation was given you on that account. ‘The people of New Zealand—Europeans and natives—are generous people, aad they would allow no persons situated as yop, are to suffer wrong from a mistake into which 'you have fallen, I say this in, case those offers made- to you should be further considered.' , Now, the third subject upon which I have, heard grumbling, because there has been no open statement made in this. I have heard. that there has been grumbling, because we have had arrangements, or because the Government, 1 on behalf of the people of New, Zealand, had inade arrangements, if you desired to have a 1 railway made from here; to Mokau that the money should be forthcoming. 1 N ow that arrangement was made without any i intentiontb atteiript to make a railway^until the chiefs had agreed to such a thing being done,

and until the chiefs had expressed their wish for it. It was done out of pure love for you, in the belief that you would ultimately wish it. I did nothing more than nature has done for you. Look here, —Nature has made here for you level plains of rich country, through which a railroad can run with the greatest ease. Was God wrong in doing that ? Then God has put into the earth up here abundance of iron by which the rails for the road can be made at any time, and the the iron is a valuable property which will make many men and many families rich. Was God wrong in making that provision for you if you wish to have a railway ? Then God filled this country with abundance of coal by which fires can be made to drive the engines along. These coals are very valuable property, and will make many people rich, and many families comfortable. Providence has done all that is good for you. for the men who shut out doctors and medicine from this country, and let innocent children die for want of proper care, say that innocent children died, young boys and girls died, without help because men who are making money in other places by selling land wished that other persons should be shut out from Belling land. There now, I stand here before you and say I was your friend in doing what I did in taking advantage of the provisions which Providence made so that when you desired to make this railway to bring wealth, and comfort, and peace to you, I shall wait until tomorrow till ten o’clock in the morning. If you then send to me, tell me that you accept those offers, and are prepared to discuss them, then I will remain to discuss them. Then if I do not hear from you that you will discuss, after 10 o’clock to-morrow morning they will be withdrawn absolutely, and this you must remember that every future arrangement made with you must be upon a new understanding, not upon those offers made at Hikurangi. I have only further to say this : if you do not accept, if you do not discuss them, recollect this, that in me you will always have a friend, if you say you have made a' mistake, and send for me, now or any other time if I can. X will help you. And now I wish you good night. Grey here retired slowly from the ground, and while leaving

Te Ngakau immediately got up and said : Do yo want me to answer to-morrow morning. Wait, wait to answer, that my word ia this, the best way to answer is at once, and'wait until 10 o’clock to-morrow, that is all I have to say.

The Ministerial party were now fast moving off, ‘ ; Te Ngakau : Well, I cannot answer now, because: Grey is going. The assemblage dispersed at 5 o'clock.