PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXIII, Issue 5468, 5 October 1878, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Friday-, October 1. The Hoh. the Acting-Speaker took the chair at the usual hour. The Hon. Colonel WHITMORE laid on the table a report of a meeting held atWaltara between the Premier and certain natives. ELLESMERE AND LAKE FORSYTH. A report on the subject of the Lake Ellesmere and Forsyth Reclamation and Akaroa Railway Trust Bill was read. The report recommended the formation of only a small part of the railway referred to. The reclamation, of Bake Forsyth was considered to be of too speculative a character to commend itself to the committee. The cost of a largo portion of the work was considered to be under estimated to the extent of about £130,000. The Little River section only .was recommended by the committee. . The Hon. Sir. HALL regretted that the estimates bo had obtained had been found to bo so fallacious. Tho section approved of by the committee was tho one that he had more especially recommended to the Council. A large quantity of fertile land would opened up by the line, as well as a considerable quantity of timber. The reserves of land that had been set aside would more than cover the cost of this section of the line. If the Government, in accordance with the suggestion of the committee, constructed this line, he hoped that any surplus of money left after the coat of the railway had been met out of the proceeds of the sale of the reserves would be expended in railway works within the district. Tho Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE was sorry that he was obliged to oppose this motion. Tho endowments were made in favor of opening the Akaroa harbor, and should hot be diverted from that purpose. It wns not desirable to proceed with this work until reliable estimates had been prepared. He objected to a work of this kind being undertaken by tho Government in tho manner proposed by Mr. Hail. Ho moved ah amendment to the effect that it was not desirable to proceed with the work until plans and estimates had been prepared under the responsibility of the Government. The Hon. Mr. MILLER was in favor of using the endowments for the purpose of opening as much of tho line as possible. The Hon. Mr. GREY said that this Little River section was an integral and very important section of tho whole work, and would also be heartily approved by the Akaroa people. He had heard Just before he entered the Council that 6650 acres of land had been lately sold in the Akaroa District. The'Hon. Sir DILLON" BELL said that if ho voted for this Bill he would require a distinct understanding that this was only a railway to Little River; that no undertaking should bo in any way implied or understood for any further extension of the lino at any fntnie time. Either the people of Akaroa had not taken sufficient trouble to obtain correct information as to the cost of the railway, or they had misled the Council ; in either case they were not entitled to special treatment at their hands. The Hon. Colonel WHITMORE moved the adjournment of the debate. He had received notice of several amendments. He would desire to have time to consult his colleagues, and to decide which course they would mutually agree to support. The debate was adjourned until Wednesday nest. ME. ROBINSON’S CONTEMPT. On the motion gf the. Hon. Mr. Campbell referring'to this matter coming np he said that he had given notice of this resolution without having -any'knowledga of, Mr. Robinson’s wishes on the subject. At the personal request of that, gentleman he asked leave to withdraw that resolution. THE ELECT ORAL BILL. The Hon. Dr., POLLEN said the speech in which the Hon. Colonel Whitmore had introduced this Bill had not tended in any way to convince him that the Bill was a desirable one to introduce. In the absence of any statistical information from that gentleman, he would, with tho permission of the OountiJ, quote from the official record of the proceedings in another place the statistics adduced by one of the hon. member’s colleagues on this subject, in which the Premier stated that not less than 70,000 men in New Zealand were deprived of a right to vote. Nothing could be a greater contrast than the speech from which he had quoted and the one they had heard on the previous day from the Colonial Secretary. His objection to the Bill was that it was an incomplete measure of electoral reform, which should properly include a plan for redistribution of seats. He had been at some little trouble to ascertain what "number of voters could reasonably be expected to be included in the new electoral roll under this Act. The total population,of tho colony was 414,000. " The males were probably about 113.000 adults. If lunatics, criminals in prison, tourists, and members of the police force were subtracted there would remain not more than 110.000 adult males capable of obtaining a vote. Upon the present electoral roll there were in round numbers 76,000 voters, and there were 16,000 voters to be added to this list who could exertise a vote under the mincr’s-right; in all, 92,000 electors at the present time. He had also corrected his estimates by a reference to Victorian statistics. It appeared that the number of adult males in Victoria was 214,000, or as nearly as possible double the. number in New Zealand, The number of electors was 184,000, or exactly doable the number of those at present entitled to vote in New Zealand, —an ample proof that; this Electoral Bill was uncalled for, and that the want existed only in the imagination of the framers. In respect to the Maori vote, he characterised the freehold franchise as merely an after-thought, introduced upon the spur of the moment. The Maori members did not wish for it. The Council had heard the opinion of Mr. Ngatata upon the previous day. No man was better able to give an intelligent expression to the wishes of the native people. Wherever the matter had been brought before the Maoris they had petitioned in favor of their present special representation being increased, and they did not desire to interfere in the election of European members. The recent scandal at the Bay of Islands in regard to the electoral roll of that district was well known. The effect of it would bo that the European population would he completely disfranchised. Many of the names of the Maoris were undoubtedly forgeries. The returning officer was dismissed the very day before the objections to claimants were to be heard, and was thereupon declared to be unable to give evidence in support of his objections. The Hon. - Colonel WHITMORE declared that it had been proved that the names rererred to were not forgeries. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN declared that no snob proof yet existed. The subject had only been, referred to a Commission, who would not be allowed to report until after this session. The effect of this Bill would be to restrict, hot to extend the suffrage. He - thought, under these circumstances, the country and the Council could afford to wait for the. rest of this series of these great measures. By tho eloquence of the Premier the people had almost been made to believe in the existence,, of evils they had never felt. He was not afraid of manhood suffrage, but hoped to - see some protection afforded to minorities. The Bill was a complete sham,, and had been truly characterised as consolidation of tho existing law and including the stumping principle of manhood suffrage.' . . , The Hon. Colonel WHITMORE explained that he had- not made use of tho expression quoted, hehadsaid “some” of the principles of manhood suffrage. The Hon. -Mr. WILSON remarked that he had heard it said that there had been no demand for this .Bill from the people' of the colony; it was only brought forward to redeem certain pledges made by the Government. He thought i! a man were fit to act as a juryman he, was certainly qualified to exercise-a vote. Ho thought it was to attribute the evils in the present social and political state of affairs in America to manhood suffrage. Those evils were 'duo to making the position of allolerks and Government officials dependent upon their political convictions, so that they camo 'in and went out with every change of Ministry. • He did not see why a native should not be ■ treated upon the same footing as a ’European., They should have equal rights' with Europeans both as voters and in other respects. The Maori special representation was'not now under discussion, and would shortly come before the Council for revision. _ No doubt the Premier had been actuated in bringing this measure forward by the knowledge that there was a certain amount of apathy in political feeling, and this Bill, by creating more voters, would tend to increasethe interest in political questions. In the past the land more especially had been administered by a few in their own interests, rather than in the interests of the many. An impression to this effect existed throughout tho colony, and ho hoped this-Bill ’ would-convince the people that they shopld’all have a voice in tho making p£ the laws,) y " * "■ ;

The Hon. Mr. HART referred to what Dr. .Grace had said about the great objection to manhood suffrage being the evils that arose m great cities, and said that those objections did not exist in New Zealand. The honorable gentleman admitted that though that was true at the present, in fifty years’ time it would not be so. He referred to the great evils that had arisen in New York under universaKsuffrage; corruption pervaded the whole of society, even the bench of justice was not free from taint. The Council adjourned until Tuesday next. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Friday, October 4. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m. PETITIONS, ETC. Several petitions were presented and notices of motion given. personal explanations. Mr. CARRINGTON rose to a point of personal explanation, and said his arrangement with Major Atkinson for a pair was only as to tile Land Tax Bill, and he told Mr. J. C. Brown at the time that that was the case. Mr. J. O. BROWN could only say he hoard nothing of tho restriction of tho pair to the Land Tax Bill. The Hon, Major ATKINSON repeated a statement made by him the previous evening that he went to Mr. Brown with a paper setting forth exactly what the pair was for, and that Mr. Brown said it was all right, and would not sign the paper. QUESTIONS. Several unimportant questions were put and answered. NEW HILLS. The Christchurch High School Bill, Thames Harbor Board Bill, Public Revenues Bill, and Foxton Reserves Bill were introduced and read a first time. BEER DUTY BILL.—MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. On this matter being called on, Sir GEORGE GREY rose and said : Sir, —ln consequence of what occurred last night I have-satisfied myself- upon,inquiry that the feelings of a large number of hon. members who have in the most friendly and considerate manner during tho present session supported the Government are quite adverse to two Bills which stand first on the Order Paper—the Beer Duty Bill and the Joint Stock Companies Duty Bill. I am told that there is a general feeling of that kind, therefore I have doubts whether it would be practicable to get . those two Bills through in such a form as would he likely to render them useful and workable measures, and under these circumstances wa have determined to withdraw these two Bills—(cheers and counter cheers), —but to proceed with the other measures. The result of this certainly will be some embarrassment to the finance of the Colonial Treasurer, hut he will in a few days bo able to make a statement to the House, in which we propose to meet this embarrassment. (Cheers and laughter.) After a few words from Mr, Stout, Mr, JOHNSTON said his amendment was before the House, and he should decline to withdraw it. (Hear, hear.) The Hon. Hr SHEEHAN thought the matter was now made clear, and the Opposition was dealing so unfairly with the, Government that many hon. members who had voted against tho Government would join in voting to prevent tho amendment being carried.(Hear, hear). A little success had been gained by the aid of Government supporters, but it was more apparent than real. All the other measures of the Government had been approved by large majorities ; and if the honorable gentlemen opposite wished to bring down a vote of want of confidence they could do so on Monday, and would be fairly met by the Government. (Hear,. hear). The plea for objection to the Beer Duty Bill was that it would tax the working man. The Opposition had no feeling in favour of the working man, and that the working man had no liking for them would soon be seen in ease of a dissolution. These two Bills were minor matters, and ha hoped the House would consent to the withdrawal of the Bills without farther ado. Mr. ORMOND said the hon. gentleman had cleverly endeavored to cover a severe and galling defeat, and the matter might have heen allowed to pass had the hon. gentleman not said the other measures of the Government ■ were approved by large majorities. "Why, the cap of humiliation of the Government had been filled to the brim by tho treatment the Land Tax Bill had received. Very few approved of it, and it was thoroughly condemned by most of those who had voted for it in order to keep the Government in office. He hoped the matter would be allowed to drop now, because the Government had heen Compelled to give up these wretchedly reckless Bills, and the object of the Opposition was completely gained. . (Hear, hear.) He had told the Treasurer in tho lobby lately that those two Biiia should not pass; but the Treasure* had declared they should. Who was right ? (Cheers.) If the Government had dared to go bn with the Bills the Opposition would have made it their business to prevent them passing, even if the tactics of last session were adopted to enable the minority to fight the cause of justice. (Cheers.) Mr. BRYCE confessed to very great surprise at hearing the statement of the Premier, after ail the House had been told about these three measures, the Land Tax Bill, the Beer Bill, and the Joint Stock Companies Bill, being part of, and a necessary part of, the Government policy as a whole. (Hear, hear ) After the statement of tho Premier, respeqt for the words of Ministers must be altogether destroyed—(hear, hear) —and he thought at least a regard for truth and honor ought to have prevented them abandoning their measures after having led the House to believe by direct statements that the Bills would be pushed on to the end. (Hear, hear.) The Premier had spoken about the party being adverse to these two Bills, and wishing them to be withdrawn. He did not believe that to be true. It might he true as respecting a, section of the party, or as regards, the brewing and other interests, but not in any sense as regards the party as a whole. He should not apeak on the Bill, but he would say this, that ho was quite at a loss to find proper words in which to express his sentiments upon the subject of its withdrawal. He had felt the greatest possible astonishment at the announcement. If it had been made after a successful division he should still have been astonished, but his astonishmeutwasgreatly increased when he recollected that the previous night the Government suffered a defeat on the Bill, and that it was in view of that defeat they were now withdrawing the measure. (Hear, hear.) He should say no more, but whoso word were members of" the House to depend upon if not upon Ministers when they said that these Bills were to be regarded as part of the Government policy, and that the Government would stand or fall upon them. (Hear, hear.) On what could the "House depend after that ?. (Hear, hear.) Mr. BARTON had voted for the BUI the previous night against his convictions, because he saw there was a chance of the Government being defeated. He regarded tho Ministry as a committee of the Liberal Party, and had looked upon the Beer Duty BUI as an expression of the opinion of the party that the poor were not to escape taxation while tho rich were being taxed; but as the rich had refused to allow that, then they , should be taken at their word, and the rich only should be taxed by the patty in power. There were plenty of things which could he taxed, as for instance the profit arising to the banks by reason of, tho issue of bank notes. He referred to the loss of notes during the year, which must result in considerable profit to the banks. Why should the Government not take part of that 1 Mr. SHRIMSKI regretted he was not pre- ; sent when the division took place, because he should have voted for the BUI. Ha reminded Mr. Ormond that last year he had to withdraw two Bills, and ho went on to say that he regretted tho Bill had been withdrawn, because he recognised that the opposition came from those who while they cried out for the poor man’s beer would grind down tho poor man to tho dust. Mr. REES was glad to hear the BUI9 were to bo withdrawn, because they were not the best Bills that could have been" brought down, and many Government supporters would have had "to vote, against their conscience in supporting them. Ho twitted Mr. Ormond with having this session arrived at the conclusion that the Opposition could usefully employ the forms of tho House to defeat Government measures to which tho minority were opposed, though he had held a different opinion last year. He congratulated Jthe Government on tho one they had taken, which wag the only course that could have heen taken consistent with self-respect. But if rumor was correct, the late Government wore going to propose this very joint stock companies tax. That was tho rumor. Tho Hon. Major ATKINSON said" that ho had stated in his Financial Statement that the Government had considered tho matter, but after getting all information on tho subject he felt tho tax Would bo thoroughly unsound, .and ho would not propose it. (Hear, hear.) Mr. REES had heard what ho stated, and was glad to hear the explanation. However, ho-was glad to hoar tho Bills were to bo withdrawn. : , ■ ' 1 . Mr, WAKEFIELD thought this was not

an occasion for bounce, as bounce could not do away with the fact that the Government occupied a most humiliating position. For weeks past they had rejected all overtures to modify their policy, and at a caucus the Treasurer had petulantly declared that they could not' even consider the withdrawal of tho Beer Bill hecause it so greatly affected their whole financial policy. Mr: MONTGOMERY objected to statements being made as to what occurred at the ■ Government caucus. Other people might take different views ns to what was said, and the House would find itself landed in a most inconvenient discussion. Mr. WAKEFIELD could not thank the hon. member for his discourteous interruption. Ha was doing nothing improper, Mr. STOUT said it just amounted to this, that no Government would ever call supporters together and take them into their, confidence if this sort of thing was to go on. Mr. WAKEFIELD believed he had done nothing improper. He was glad the Bill was to be dropped ; but it would have heen better to have done this in a pleasant way than in tho unpleasant way iu which it had been done ; better that they should have taken the advice of supporters, and not have taken up a defiant attitude until they were beaten, and forced to accept from enemies that which they would not accept from friends. That they did not occupy a dignified position was apparent. Even with respect to this Joint Stock Companies’ Tax Bill what was the state of the ease 2 Why, the Treasurer had defended the Bill on political grounds—on the ground that it was the balancing measure to the land tax—that it assured the property holders that they were not especially singled' out for taxation. Its political value had been descanted on at great length, and it was said it would show the property holders that capitalists were also to be called upon to pay a share of the taxa-.' tion. (Hear, hear.) What had become of that view of the case now ? After some further remarks he said he thought the Government had made the mistake of over-estimating their position. It was seldom the Native Minister spoke now, and the fact of his having been put forward that afternoon showed that the Government felt they were in a difficult position. The hon. gentleman had endeavored to pull them out of the mess in his usual cheery manner, but he had not been so successful as usual. The Government had made a mistake in trying to force their general supporters too far in voting for measures of which they did not approve, and it was to be hoped they would be more careful in future. In fact, after the division of last night, they should at once have resigned, if only to be consistent, for their conduct had been in strange contrast with the defiant attitude taken up various individual members of the Ministry. Only the other day the Treasurer had told the House that tho Government would stand or fall by the result of the division on this Bill. Mr. BALLANOE : No. Mr. WAKEFIELD said the hon. member was scarcely responsible for his recollection, because no doubt the events of the last twentyfour hours had quite upset his - mental equilibrium. No doubt he and his colleagues had been up half the night considering their position. (A laugh.) . The hon, gentleman had distinctly said that these Bills wore integral parts of the Government policy, and the Government would stand or fall by them. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Wakefield went on to say that as the Government had not resigned the business should he pushed on with all speed ; certainly he should not offer any opposition, but he hoped they would he more careful in future to take the advice of friends before the course advised was forced ou them by an adverse vote. Mr. DE LAUTOUR urged that the business should be got ou with, and the Opposition be allowed to make the most of their catch vote. Dr. HODGKINSON thought the Government had taken a judicious course in withdrawing the Bill, and would have been glad to see a similar; course taken in regard to parts of tho Laud Tax BUI. (Hear, hear.) Mr. GREEN acquitted Mr. MurrayAynsley of any improper conduct in reference to the pairs of the previous night. He had only paired on the Land Tax Bill. After a few remarks from Mr. Hislop, The Hon. Major ATKINSON regretted that the Attorney-General had not made the amende honorable, when the statements he made the previous night as to pairs were proved to oe incorrect, and went on to commisserate with the Government on the unfortunate position they occupied. Overweening self-conceit had ' brought with it a speedy fall, and that with their ignorance of the wants of the country and the feelings of the people would be sure to bring them to their ruin ultimately. However he hoped that they would pocket the affront and remain in office, for he wished to see them remain there yet a little while, to reap the consequences of their acts. At the commencement of the session they had laid down as a principle that the Government would accept amendments only from their friends, nothing from foes ; but the honorable member for Manawatu was scarcely a friend, yet they had accepted his amendment, and not on a small matter, hut on an important principle. That it was an important principle the Hansard report of tho Treasurer’s speech showed. The honorable gentleman said these measures must be looked at as a whole policy, all the items of which were intimately connected with each other, and none of whioh could be eliminated without-destroying the policy. If they wished to go to the country on this important item of policy the Opposition was ready to meet them in the country. The Government had endeavoured to force the Bill on their supporters by absolute terrorism, and having failed had accepted a defeat at the bauds of their enemies. Mr. ; HUNTER said his opposition to the beer tax had sprung from the same reasons as those whioh actuated the hon. member for Wanganui (Mr. Fox), viz., that the tax would injure the moral and social interests of the country.

Mr."SAUNDERS had voted for the Bill because an unconstitutional method had been adopted to raise up an opposition to it. He should have honored the Government if they had stuck to the Bill, but he did not honor them now because they had yielded to the unconstitutional opposition referred to. They had dropped their Licensing Bill, the publichouse clauses of the Bribery Bill, and other measures, and iu fact it would bo well iu future for them to put at the top of their Bills “by permission of the licensed victuallers.” (A laugh.) Mr. KELLY considered the Government had taken a most improper position. Had he known they were going to ■ throw their supporters over in favor of outside influence in reference to these two Bills, he should never have voted for the third reading of tho Land BUI. (Hear, hoar.) Mr. BOWEN believed that as the Government - had not been able' to make up > their minds ;on their financial policy during the recess they could not do it satisfactorily this session now, and as they had dropped two Bills they should also withdraw the other two in the Upper House. (Laughter and cheers.) The Estimates could then bo passed in a week, and members could get away in a week, leaving tho Government to get up a now policy in place of that whioh had so lamentably broken down. (Hear, hear.) Mr. McLEAN tendered somewhat similar advice, and hoped the, amendment would be withdrawn. ' . Mr. HAMLIN thought it extraordinary that while last session the Government were accused of having no policy, this year they were accused of not having carried out tho bold policy they enunciated last year. _ He complained that the conduct of the Opposition was obstructive, and that they should have met the Government face to face fairly in the country on the Land Tax Bill. , - Mr. WASON believed tho Government had never intended to go on with these two Bills, but where were the fundamental principles of tho Government policy ? After some little, discussion as to the adjourment tho debate was adjourned, and the House roso at 5.30. . . ...