PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXIII, Issue 5466, 3 October 1878, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISL A TIYE' COUNCIL. Wednesday, October 2. THE CALL. The Hon. Mr. ROBINSON repeated the explanation he had given the previous day of the reasons why he had been absent on the call of the Council, aud reassured the Council that he had no desire to treat the Council with contempt. The Hon. Colonel BRETT said that it was with much regret that he was compelled to express his dissatisfaction with the excuses made by Mr. Robinson. As the seconder of the motion made fop the call, in the absence of the mover, it became his duty to say that be thought the hon. gentleman’s reasons given for his absence were unsatisfactory, aud he had therefore been guilty of contempt, and should be fined £SO. If Mr. Robinson had a-ked for leave of absence from the Council it would have been granted without a single dissenting voice. It was ruled by the Acting-Speaker that notice of the motion brought forward by the Hon. Colonel Brett would be necessary bef. <re it could be received by the Council, unless permission were given to suspend the standing order to that effect.

The motion declaring the reasons given by Air. Robinson unsatisfactory, and therefore, that he had been guilty of contempt, was read. The Hon. Colonel WHITMORE thought the object of the efcandiug order was to secure the attendance of members of the members of the Council in Wellington. He excused Mr. Robinson’s absence, as it had been amply explained by that gentleman as being owing to urgent private business, which had upon former occasions been considered an ample justification. Taking all the circumstances of the case into consideration, he hoped the ‘ Council would overlook the slight breach of the formal rules of the Council committed by Mr. Robinson, especially as ho had been a very regular attendant at the Council. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE said that in this particular case a call of the House was pending, and yet without permission from the Council Air. Bibinson had gone away, in contempt of the standing orders of the Council. This made the case different from others that had gone Before. With very great regret, as a matter of duty, he would have to vote for the infliction of the penalty.

The Hon. Captain FRASER thought there had been a breach of the letter but not of the spirit of the law. It was not now competent for the Council to adjudge Mr. Robinson guilty of contempt, because it had not been done at the time of the call ; the Council had then waived its right, and could not now resume it.

The Hon. Colonel KENNY was surprised that the Hon. Captain Fraser, who had brought forward the matter, should now so far have changed his opinion as to be prepared to vote against the natural consequence of his previous action.

The Hon. Air. HALL asked the Speaker if he were called upon to give his opinion as to whether |AIr, Robinson’s excuses were satisfactory or not, what answer he would give ? He thought that without leave of absence Air. Robinson should have subordinated his private business,fhowever urgent, to his public duties in the Council The Hon. Dr. AIENZIE3 remarked that had Mr. Robinson chosen he could have been, present at the call of the Council and yet have gone.i way for a week immediately after. Conse-' quently it was only a breach of the formal rules of the Council. Tho Qon. Dr. GRACE thought it was the duty of any member placed in a similar difficulty to weigh the wh le circumstances of his case. If be then decided that he must absent himself, it would be necessary for him to trust to the decision of tho Council as to the spirit which had actuated him in over-stepping the rules, and accept the result of their deliberations.

The Hon. Air, GREY thought that it was abundantly proved that Air. Robinson had been only guilty of an error of judgment, not of any intention to throw any slight upon the Council, The Hon. Mr. REYNOLDS moved the previous question, as the readiest method of getting out of the difficult position the Council now occupied. The Hon. Air. BO AR thought it necessary to decide whether Air. Robinson’s excuse wa* satisfactory or not, and if not it would be incumbent upon the Council to declare him guilty of contempt. 3 The Hon. Colonel WHITMORE quoted precedents to show that in previous instances where no excuse had been tendered the members had then been adjudged guilty of contempt. In this case an excuse for Air. Robinson’s absence had at once been tendered. Air, Robinson had been in Wellington on the very day, and asked for advice from the ActingSpeaker as to the best course he could pursue. Tho Hou, Dr. POLLEN did not know what extenuating circumstances might have been urged in this particular case, as he had not been before present, but the defence raised by the Lon. Colonel Whitmore was so injudicious as to compel him to vote foe the motion condemning Air. Robins »n’s action. The precedents quoted, were not parallel, and could not be urged in support of Mr. Robinson’s absence.

The Hon. Mr. MILLER quoted from Hansard to prove that upon a former occasion Colonel Whitmore’s action had been diametrically opposite to that now taken by him. The Hon. Mr. Miller congratulated the hon. the Colonial. Secretary on. the change his friendship had caused him to make in the views he held on this subject. The Hon. Dr. GRACE thought that a fundamental principle was at stake. It was not right to allow the personal convenience of any particular member to interfere with rules of great public importance. A “ call ’ of the Council should take precedence of any private business. A division was taken on the previous question, which was lost by 13 to 22. On the voices Mr. Robinson was then declared guilty of contempt. The Hon. Colonel BRETT moved,—That the Hon. Mr. Robinson having been adjudged guilty of contempt of the Legislative Council be fined £SO. The Hon. Colonel WHITMORE said that he had been requested by Mr. Robinson to say that he hoped if ho were declared guilty of contempt the Council would not waste any time in discussing the question of a fine, as he was quite prepared to pay the fine. He declared that he had maintained the opinions be always held, bat ’’had deferred to the usual practice of the Council, which was to accept any reasonable excuse.

Tha Hou. Mr. SCOTLAND moved as an amendment that Mr. Kobinson be censured for his absence, because he had failed to obtain leave, as he might easily have done. The Hon. Capt da PRASE R said if a vote of censure were passed he would never forget or forgive. After considerable discussion, Captain Fraser withdrew the expression. The Hon. Dr, POLLON regretted that this question had been treated so much as a personal question. He would vote in favor of the censure passed being communicated by the Speaker to Mr. Robinson, rather than that a fine be imposed. The Hon. Mr. HALL said that a fine implied a censure and an additional punishment besides. He would vote for the amendment of the Hou. Mr. Scotland. The' Hou. Mr. REYNOLDS thought the remarks made by the Hon. Dr. Grace came with a bad grace from him, because as be lived iu Wellington ho could hardly understand the difficultita members who lived at a distance had to contend with. It was very easy for Dr. Grace to say that a call of the Council should take precedence of private business. A division was taken, by which a fine of £SO was inflicted by 18 to 13. HARBOR BILLS. Tho reports of committees on several Harbor Bills, and upon a petition from South Rakaia District, were brought up. BILLS READ. The Public Reserves Act Amendment Bill, the Clyde (Vincent County) Athenmum Public Library Bill, the Oamaru Waterworks Act Amendment, and the Waitaki High School Bill were read a third time. ' ’ ' The Patumaboe Hall Site Bill and the Otago School Commissioners Empowering Bill were read a second time. IS COMMITTEE. At the evening sitting the Patumaboe,Hall Sito Bill and the Otago School Commissioners’ Empowering Bill were passed through committee and read a third time. The Council adjourned at 7.55. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. - Wednesday, October 2. The Speaker took tho chair at 2.30 p.m. NOTICES. 1 . Several notices of motion were given and petitions presented. RESIDENT MAGISTRATE AT NAPIER- . In answer to Captain Russell, who put a put a question as to the appointment ot Mi. Robert Stuart as Resident Magistral® at Napier. ' ; 1 '

Tllb tfcm. Mr. SHEEHAN said the appointment waa only temporary.

IUNGITATA BRIDGE. Mr. WAKE KIEL D asked the Government, —(I) Whether they are aware that the northern embankment of the Kangitata traffic bridge, Which has been just constructed iu solid work, against the protests of tho inhabitants of the district and the local bodies, has again succumbed to floods? (2) Whether they will take steps to repair the damage immediately ? • Mr. MACANDREW raid no injury had been dou& to the protective works. It was a local bridge. NEW BILL. Mr. THOMSON obtained leave to introduce a Bill to regulate the plau of towns cn private laud. OFFICERS ENGAGED AND DIB3IISSED. Mr. SUTTON moved. That the return laid before this House of officers engaged and discharged b;;:cj Ist December, 1877, be printed.—Agreed to. THE C. SE OF MAJOR MAIR AND OTHERS. The H-m. Mr. FOX moved,—That a committee be appointed to inquire into the circumstances attending the removal from office of Major Mair, Mr. G. Mair, and Mr. Searanckb; with power to call for persons and papers; fiVe to be a quorum To report in tb ee weeks. The committee to consist of Messrs Ormond, Mucandrew, Atkinson, Seaton, Morris, Williams, Thomson, Rolleston, Carrington, and the mover. He pointed out that when he put a question on the paper in reference to this matter, he was told by tho Premier that he had taken a wrong course, that a petition should have been presented by the persons aggrieved, or a motion for a committee of enquiry should have been made, and that the Government would not shrink from any inquiry. He put a notice of motion on tho paper, but in a general statement on native affairs Mr. Sheehan had said ho would not submit to such a committee being appointed, and he naked the House to rally round him. Under those circumstances he had withdrawn the notice in order that he might consider ■what course ho * hould adop , hut he had now decided to go on with the matter. Ho referred to the unexplained and apparently unnecessary dismissal of Major Mair and the appointment in his place <•£ one who, compared with Major Mair—a man of mature age, and who had distinguished himself by his services to tho country during peace and war—was but an inexperienced boy, alluding to Mr, Grace. He thought this inexplicable action of the Government should be inquired into, and quoted a report in the New Zealand Times of a meeting in the Waikato, in which the settlers passed resolutions disapproving of the dismissal of Major Mair, and which showed that the natives themselves disapproved of the coarse.pursued. It was said Rewi hid objected to the removal of Major Mair. He referred to the fact that the gentleman who had been so severely treated—Mr Searancke—had been in the service for thirty years. He hoped the Government would not oppose the mot on. The, Hon. Mr. SHEEHAN opposed the motion. Ho considered that all the civil servants should stand in the same relation to the Government for the time being as private employes did to their employers, and might be dismissed at once without question. But that was too advanced a view to be accepted yet. Still that must be the rule in the Native Department. . Ho did not propose to go into the merits of tho question beyond this—a man might observe all rules of red tape, still not be so earnest as was necessary. As to the appointment of Mr. Grace, he was not sent to take the place of Major Mair, but merely to assist Major Te Wheoro, who was to do the work of Major Mair and Mr. Searancke. It bad been said that Mr. Searancke had been in the service 30 years. "V/ell, surely it was time he gave somebody else a chance after drawing a large salary for thirty years ; bat he would say this, that Mr. Searancke was not fit for the position, and would be thankful ere long that the Government had given him au opportunity of leaving the service under such favorable circumstances. He attached small importance to the public meeting; such meetings could easily be gos up, aid in such cases as this it was Improper. As to the native feeling in the matter, ho would tell the House this, that messengers bad been sent to the King to ask his interest in favor of Major Mair, and he had absolutely refused to see the messengers, and Rewi had approved of the dismissal. He complained that many of the officers of the department bad become so attached to the late party iu office that, although they might not have trangreased official rules, they had shown passive resistance to the objects of the present Ministry. In the case of Major Mair, for instance, during the late negotiations with the King people he was in rec-ipt of communications from two parties in the Waikato, Major Mair and Maj -r Te Wheoro. Every telegram from the former th*ew cold water upon the whole business, and made doleful pre dictions' which were never fulfilled ; while Major Te Wheoro had been exceedingly zealous, and everything ho had predicted had come to pass. That was an instance of how little enthusiasm was shown by some of the Government officers. He regarded the motion as a vote of censure, and be appealed to the House whether the Government had .not shown that their native policy was worthy of confidence. He bad nothing to fear from au enquiry. He had not exhibited any malice, although he might reasonably be expected to have done so, from the manner In which he was treated by the department before be came into office. These'gentlemen - had done good service, but that was no reason why their services should always be valuable. They had been paid compensation, and their services dispensed with in the ordinary manner provided by the Civil Service.

The Hon. Sir.' GISBORNE, on being assured that the dismissals were made in accordance with the provisions of the Civil Service Act, advised the honorable member not to press the motion. Mr. KELLY said no Government with any sense of self-respect could treat the motion other than as a vote of censure, and he alleged that Mr. Fox when in office bad taken the same course with a certain officer in Taranaki as that now taken by the Government. * Mr. MANDEKS thought the Native Minister's claim to do as he pleased with the officers in his department a fair and just one, and should support him in that position. Mr. SUTTON said one of the dismissed officers was partly under the control of the Minister of Justice, and the dismissal was another instance of the misfortune of the two offices— Minister of Justice and Native Minister—having been combined. He went on to condemn the “ personal government ” system in the Native Department, and said it ought to have been done away with three or four years ago, a d referred to the great feeling of distrust which was springing up in the Government service.

Tfao Hod. Mr. FOX objected altogether to the attitude of the Government in making tfcese trivial matters Ministerial questions, so that members were unable to express an inde* pendent opinion. It seemed to him that the Government were endeavoring to raise up in this colony a kind of secret tribunal—a sort of thing like the Council of Ten in Venice ; indeed, if this sort of thing went on ho should not be surprised if some morning some high officer of the Government was found poisoned. (A laugh.) He objected altogether to .this secret system of government, and re* ferred to the evils which had , resulted In the North Island from a secret personal system of government. It was most illogical for gentlemen to get np and us© the tu quoque argument—it was a incan form of argument. The hon. member for New Plymouth had said be (Mr. Pox) bad done something of the same sort some years ago; but what had that to do with the question. He was not on his trial; the Government were. He had stood bis trial, and the hon. member for New Plymouth was Of>e of the men who supported him, and by his vote declared that tbo Government did right. What wa» the use then of using such arguments. Ho irotested altogether against dragging in these delegate negotiations ”on every occasion, when the House never were informed what the negotiations were. It was not true that the Government bad shown that they were specially capable of dealing with native affairs. The only fact they referred to in proof of the statement was the survey of the Waimate plains, but there was a telegram on the table which put the saddle on tbo right hor*e in respect to that matter, because It proved indisputably that the survey would have been completed before now had the present Native Minister at the end of last session not stopped the survey initiated by Major Brown. Ho twitted the Premier on having gone back from the position he took up when tho matter was last before the House, when he declared tbo Government would not shirk the inquiry, and in conclusion hoped that independent members would show their sense of disapproval of tho secret system of government sought to bo inaugurated by the Government, •

The motion was negatived on a division by 47 to 22. The following is the division list t—- _ No««f, 47,-" Moears. UalKcnt, Ballance, Barff, Barton, tyiMvp, Bflnjra (Ttscpe&s, (AshJtfj), Bryco,

Bunny, Carrington, Cutten. DeLautour. JDignsn, Feidwick, Fisher, Go rge, Grey, Hamlin, Hislop, Hobbs Hodgklnson, Kelly, Mwmdrow, Mandcrs, McMinn, Montgomery, Murray, Nahe, Oliver, O’Aorke, Pyke, Rees, Reeves, Saunders, Seaton, Sharp, Sheehan, ShrlmskJ, 8 o>it. Swanson, Taiaroa, Takamoana, Thomson. Tolo, Turnbull, Wallis, ami Wood. , Ayes, 22. —Messrs. Atkinson. Bowen, Hranclon, Fox, Gibbs. Henry, Hurstho ise, Johnston. McLean, Mur-ray-Aynsley Ormond, Richardson, Richmond, Roileston, Seymour, Stevens, S<dton, Tcschomaker, Wason, Whitaker, Williams, and Woolcock. PRINTING NATIVE DOCUMENTS. Mr. TAIAUOA moved,— That the report of the meeting between the Native Minister and the Ng-vitahu tribe, at Kaiapoi, iu May and June, 1878, be laid before this House aud printed.—Agreed to. Mr. TAIAROA moved, —That, on Thursday, the 3rd of. October, this House will resolve itself into committee of the whole, to consider of a respectful address to he presented to his Excellency ihe Governor, requesting him to cause the sum of £SOO to be placed upon the Supplementary Estimates for the purpose of translating iuto the Maori language Mr. A, Mackay's work on Middle Island Native affairs. After a short discussion the debate was adjourned. PUBLIC WORKS SYSTEM. Mr. SAUNDERS, moved,—That, in the opinion of this House, no system of Public Works can be satisfactory, or truly colonial, that proposes to exclude a large taxpaying area from all participation in its benefit; and common justice demands that those large districts in the colony which can be clearly defined as not presenting such physical and political features as would justify the construction of railways that would enhance their value, take the heavy traffic off their common roads, and to a great extent obviate tho necessity for common bridges, should either bo exempted from all contributions to public works by which they are not benefited, or should be assisted from colonial revenue in the construction of their ordinary roads, bridges, or wharves. He disclaimed any party purpose in moving the motion, and hoped it would be so treated by hon, members of the House. They were now approaching the most dangerous paths of colonial finance, now that a property tax was necessary. No country in the world had borrowed so largely in proportion to population, and no country in which the conditions of the country were so diversified as to defy uniform rules. He believed we had borrowed too much. Mr, Gillies had said when the Public Works policy was initiated that it was a policy of stimulants, and must end in direct depression, and he (Mr. Saunders) believed the colony had been intoxicated during the last eight years, and that it had culminated in a fit of delirium tremens at the Dunedin banquet the other day. He did not feel much gratitude to Sir Julius Vogel for what he had done, because he believed the public works could have been carried on much more expeditiously if no money had been borrowed, Wo were now paying more money annually in the shape of interest and sinking fund than we were spending annually on public works, so that it was clear we could get on very well if we had no depressing debt to weigh ua down, and we ought at once to stop borrowing before our creditor stopped ns. The ability of public men in New Zealand had been estimated by their power of spending -money. Doctors used to treat patients by bleeding aud drugging to such au extent that only the strongest patients could survive the treatment, and he thought that New Zealand, notwithstanding its hard treatment, would survive, and progress healthily if prudent • men were at the helm, but there must bo the greatest prudence observed. Now that wo had adopted a property tax a new system must be introduced. Railways most not be made in places in which they were not required or before they were required, aud in places where, owing to the natural features of the country, railways could not be mad*, other necessary works must be proceeded with. Some districts only wanted roads, others only bridges, and so on, and unless they got these works they could not bo expected to contribute to the revenue in the same proportion as other parts of the colony did. The district he represented was quite neglected under the Public .Works scheme, although under the Land Tax Act alone it would have to pay at least £IO,OOO a year towards the construction of public works, to say nothing of its contributions by indirect taxes. There were dangerous rivers in his district which at times for weeks separated the people from the rest of the colony, yet they could not get a single bridge. This sort of thing should be put an end to.

Mr. HURSTHOUSE felt that a question of such importance could scarcely be dealt with this session; but be, as the representative of au outlying district, must take the opportunity of protesting against large sums o! money being spent ia« the districts which least required it, while other parts of the colony were altogether neglected. He referred to the great difficulties the sett era iu the Motueka District had to contend with, and asked was it justice that these men should be called upon to pay taxes for benefits which they bad not received, and which it was not even proposed to confer upon them? They paid £IO,OOO or £12,000’ a year, and all they received iu return was the services (?; of a Resident Magistrate who never visited the district, and three constables. Worse than that, they absolutely had not only to keeproads by their own property, but roads through Government property. He hoped the Government and the House would look into this matter, and deal fairly with all parts of the colony. Mr. MANDERS contended that his district had been absolutely injured by the Public Works scheme.

Mr. STOUT said the first part of the resolution stated that which was untrue, and he referred to prices obtained at land sales to show that there was no tax-paying area but what was benefited at least to some extent. That which benefited part of the colony must indirectly benefit the whole, and all districts could not expect Supreme Courts and suchtilings in their midst. He admitted that certain districts had not directly benefited by the Public Works scheme; but the scheme was not yet finished. 'All works could not be carried out at once, and districts must wait their turn. Analysing the motion, he did not quite understand what “political features” meant, except that the land was held in some districts in large holdings. Well, if the land was good, he agreed with what Mr. Stafford said in 1869, that if the State constructed railways through this land, the State should resume possession, but it was to befearedpublic opinion was scarcely ripe for that yet; and if it was poor land then the people had better move on to better land. He contended that these districts were getting benefits from the colony. The State guaranteed 2 per cent, on railways constructed under the Districts Railway Act, subsidies were granted to road boards, and the district got 20 per cent, of the land revenue arising therein. So that they did get returns for what they paid in taxation. There was no objection to the motion, because it for the most part asserted truisms, but there were ambiguities in the expression “ area ” and other phrases. The arrival of the hour of halt-past five interrupted the debate. The House resumed at 7.30 p.ra. NORTH OTAGO BENEVOLENT INSTITUTION BILL. Mr. HISLOP moved the second reading of this Bill, explaining that its object was the distribution of charity and the vesting of certain land in the body to be constituted under the Bill. The Bill was read a second time, and its committal fixed for Wednesday next. NEW TLYMOU H HIGH SCHOOL BILL. Mr. KELLY moved the second reading of this Bill. The motion was agreed to. the Bill read a second time and referred to the Waste Lands Committee. ENGINEERING DEPARTMENT. The adjourned debate was resumed on the question,—That, in the opinion of this House, an Engineering Department should be organised to act in conjunction with the Survey Department, to undertake the work of laying off the necessary lines of communication through Crown lands and such surveyed sections as have not hitherto been provided with roads ; and that in all cases where sectional surveys are to be undertaken, the necessary engineering survey shall precede the work. That, as a direction to engineers, this House considers that a grade of one in fifteen should bo the minimum fixed by regulation unless the consent of the Chief Engineer or the local organisation has been previously obtained. The Hon. Hr. STOUT said the laying out of roads had not been ignored by the Survey Department, and the fact was there was an officer in each district whose special duty it was to see that roads were properly laid out If the motion were given effect to the result would be the creation of a new department, which would entail a very considerable expense without any adequate return. Ho would therefore suggest the withdrawal of the motion, and the hon. member who placed it on the paper could rest assured the Survey Department would,, not ignore the work to which the motion had reference. Thb motion was withdrawn accordingly. -

MARRIED WOMEN’S PROPERTY PROTECTION BILL. - ‘ The second reading okthis Bill’wai postponed until Wednesday next. f HAMILTON PUBLIC HALL SITE BILL. On the motion of Mr. McMinn this Bill was read a second time aud referred to the Waste Lauds Committee. WELLINGTON. CORPORATION LAND GRANT BILL. When the order of the day was called on for the second reading of this Bill, The Hon. Mr. RICHARDSON presented a petition from owners of property in Port Nicholson having a water frontage, expressing a hope that the Bill would not be allowed to pass unless it contained some provision for ascertaining the injury done to the property of the petitioners and awarding compensation inglyMr. SHRIM3RI pointed out that it would be well if the owners of property on the shore side of Willia-s-rt-ec were given an extra chain, so as to enable their buildings to be shifted bacH, and Willis : street widened accordingly. Mr MURRAY said he would oppose this Bill at every stage, on the principle t u at endowments should not be granted to Harbor Boards, and much less to municipalities. This principle had already been laid down by the House. Mr. WHITAKER thought all the foreshore ought to be carefully preserved for the purpose of improving tho harbor, and giving greater facilities for carrying on the business of the port. In his opinion no land around the harbors of New Zealand should be granted to towns, but should be preserved to enable funds to be raised. Mr. HUNTER pointed out that if the wish of the Corporation were given effoctto,and they were allowed to proceed with the Te Aro leclamation to completion, three new wharves would be erected, which would entirely relieve the pressure off the Queen’s Wharf, and the traffic from the one main thoroughfare through which it had now to pass. He had no doubt that private rights would receive due consideration; but he hoped that no further delay would take place in the prosecution of a great public work of such importance to the city, and he might say the whole colony. The Bill was read a second time and referred to the Committee on Private Bills. NORSEWOOD MECHANICS’ INSTITUTE BILL, This Bill was read a second time. RIVERTON HIGH SCHOOL BILL. On the motion of Dr. this Bill was read a second time and referred to the Waste Lands Committee. IN COMMITTEE. The House went into committee on the In* coporation of Oampbelltown Bill, Timaru High School Bill, ..Taranaki County Special Loau Bill, OaehuQga Grammar School BUI, Bank Holidays Act 1873 Amendment Bill, and the Oamam Athemcum-and Mechanics* Institute Bill, all of which were read a third time. The House adjourned at 1 a.m.