HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXIII, Issue 5465, 2 October 1878, Page 2

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Tuesday, October 1. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m. PETITIONS. Petitions were presented by Messrs. Hobbs, Bastings, Barton, and Wason. NOTICES OP MOTION. Notices of motion were given by Messrs. Russell and Thomson. REPORTS. Mr. CURTIS brought up several reports from the Waste Lands Committee, which were read. Mr. BUNNY brought up the report of the Joint House Committee with reference to the employment of boys at Bellamy’s. The evidence showed that the boys were not employed over an average of seven and a-half hours a day. .. TELEGRAPHIC COMMUNICATION. Mr. PYKI3 asked the Postmaster-General, continue the telegraph line from Cromwell to Albert town, so as to extend the benefit of telegraphic communication to the districts of Cardrona, Wauaka, Hawea, Matakanui, and Makaroa 1 The Hon. Mr. FISHER’S reply was perfectly inaudible in the gallery. PETITION OP ARCHIBALD COCHRANE. Mr. HOBBS asked the Government, — Whether they will give effect to the recommendation of the Public Petitions Committee in the case of Archibald Cochrane f The Hon. Mr. STOUT replied that the Government could not give effect to the recommendation of the committee, unless an Act was passed by the Legislature enabling them to do so. CI'UTHA RIVER. Mr. MURRAY asked the Commissioner of Telegraphs and the Minister of Justice, — Why, in accordance with their promise, the telegraphist at Clyde did not at once intimate to tlie stations lower down the Clutha River that the river was rising ? The Hon, Mr. FIS H KB replied that he had telegraphed down to the telegraphist, instructing him to intimate the state of tho river to the people lower down stream, but tho line was down before his telegram could be forwarded. WELLINGTON RECLAIMED LAND, The Hon. Mr. RICHARDSON asked the Minister of Loads, —Whether he will lay before this House, before he moves the second reading of the Wellington Reclaimed Land Saw Bill) o Bthtfgraph tfcfjr flab eWif-

ing the disposition of the land to be reclaimed, as agreed upon between the General Government and the late Provincial Government of Wellington, previously to the work being undertaken ?

The Hon. Mr. STOUT said he would lay a copy of the plan on the. table. This plan, ho might p»y, was not prepared until after the contract for the reclamation had been taken. AMBERLET RAILWAY. Mr. ROLLEd TON naked the Minister for Public Works,—Whether the rails ordered for the extension of the northern lino from Amberley have arrived in the colony, and whether they will bo appropriated to that work I He had put the question on the paper as it was currently reported ia the South that the rails had arrived, but were going to be used for the purposes of the southern railway in the province of Otago. The Hon. the Minister for Public Works would have an opportunity of saying whether there was any foundation for such report. The Hon. Mr. MACANDREW replied that the rails had arrived, and were going to bo used for their intended purpose—namely, the extension of the Amb«rley line. (Hear, hear.)

CHEVIOT. Mr. SAUNDERS asked the Minister for Public Works, —If he will lay before this House a deteiled statement of any sums that have been expended on public works within the electoral district. of Cheviot during the last three years ? The Hon. Mr. MACANDREW replied that the returns could not be made up for electoral districts. As far as he could gather, however, two sums had been spent in this electoral district—one for the Hurunui bridge and the other for a railway survey.

THE FLOODS NEAR KAIAPOI. Mr. TURNBULL, without notice, asked if, in accordance with the t legrams in that morn* ing’s papers, there had been any interference on the part of the public with the railway works near Kaipoi! The Hon. Mr. MACANDREW replied that late la-t night he received a telegram from the Mayor of Kaiapoi, enquiring whether the Government intended to make an opening through Irishman’s Flat, and stating that if this were not done the public would take action to prevent the occurence of a great calamity. He immediitely communicated with the Commissioner of Railways in Christchurch, and that gentleman replied that there was no real danger, and recommended that the Mayor of Kaiapoi should be warned against any interference with the railway works. He had telegraphed to the Mayor of Kaiapoi accordingly, and had heard nothing since. NEW BILL. On the motion of Mr. Tole, leave was given to introduce a Bill to vest the Reformatory Reserve at Newmarket in the local body. The Bill was read a first time, and the second reading fixed for Wednesday week. LAND TAX BILL. This Bill was further considered in committee. On the motion of the Hon. Mr, Ballanob, the following new clauses were inserted:— 50. Where land is held under any lease, or agreement tor a lease, or other instrument creating a term of years not less than throe years to run or expire, from the date of valuation, whether granted prior to the coming into operation of this Act or subsequent thereto, then the liindrt.tx payable for such land shall be apportioned between the landlord and the tenant in the following manner:—lf the land be held under lease at a rent less than an amount equal to five per centum on the value to sell, —(I.) The tax to be paid by tho tenant shall be proportional between the rackrent and the rent actually paid; and (2.) Rack-rent, for the purposes of this section, shall be deemed to bo five per centum on tho value to sell, as defined by section four of this Act: Provided always that if the rent payable by the tenant shall not eice -d the amount of the tax. the whole of the tax shall be paid by the tenant. 51. The lessee and landlord shall each be liable for the payment of the tax, and either of them paying the same shall be entitled to recover from the other tho amount chargeable to him under this clause: Provided that if any dispute arise as to the proportion to bo paid by a tenant and landlord, the. same shall be decided by the Commissioner. 52. Whenever any Crown lessee or licensee has paid the tax under this Act and bis lease or license is in whole or iu part determined during the currency of the year in which ho has so paid the tax, then such lessee or licensee shall be entitled to a return of part of the tax porportionate to the time during which his lease or license has been determined. Progress was reported. On the motion of the Hon. Mr. Ballance, the report was ordered to be taken into consideration on Thursday next. Mr. WAKEFIELD said he intended to move the recommittal of .the . BUI, and he wished to know when he could make a motion to that effect ? The SPEAKER replied that the hon. member could give notice of his motion at any time. JUDICIAL COMMISSION BILL. The adjourned debate on tills question was resumed. There were at once loud cries of “Question.” The hon. member for Wallace, who had moved the adjournment of the debate on the previous night, was not present to resume the discussion. After a lengthened pause, during which there were several cries of 14 Question,” The Hon. Mr, FOX said he had no desire to prolong the discussion on this question, but he should like to say a few words before the question was put. It did not seem to him that there was any necessity for inquiry into the powers of the Supreme Court of New Zealand. When they came to consider the case of Mr. Barton, he was sure that every hon. member must feel regret at the case having occurred. He (Mr. Fox) had read several very long reports of altercation* that took place in the Supreme Court at Wellington, and he must say that Mr. Barton had given the Court a very great amount of provocation. But on the other hand, the Court, in inflicting the punishment it did on Mr. Barton, did not use that amount of fatherly consideration and forbearance that it might have exercised; and he must confess that if he had been in Mr. Barton’s position, he should have felt that he was rather hardly dealt with. On the occasion when Mr. Barton made the reasonable request that the Chief Justice should send for his notes in order that they might be referred to, —he thought that on the occasion the Court was decidedly in the wrong; the Court ought to have allowed these notes to be sent for, so that they might bo inspected, and the question raised by Mr. Barton decided one way or the other. All things considered, however, the weight of misconduct was against the hon. member for Wellington City; ho was decidedly more iu the wrong than the Court in what took place prior to the commitment of Mr. Barton for contempt; But when he (Mr. Fox) camo to consider the case of the hon. gentleman’s committal, he must say that there the Court acted with a great deal of unnecessary severity. He had never known of so serious a sentence being inflicted for so small an offence. He - did not see what necessity there was for an inquiry into facts which were already very well known. If the matter had taken the shape of a vote of censure, then hon. members would have known how to act. But he would point out what a dangerous thing it was to do anything that might have a tendency to shake the independence of the Bench or to lessen the respect for the Judges that ought to bo entertained by the public. He should vote against the Bill, The Hon. Mr. MACANDREW did not like to give a silent vote on this subject. He regretted ho found it necessary on this question to disagree with his hon. colleague the Attorney-General. This was a matter which could be better dealt with by laymen than by lawyers; and he thought tho name of Mr, Barton should not be imported into it. He thought it monstrous that any man should be liable to be sent to prison for life by any other man in the land. He felt that in this case a gross had been committed. He did not believe in the Infallibility of Kings or Judges ; and-he hoped, for the sake of the liberties of the people, that tho House would grant this inquiry, in order to prevent a recurrence of what had taken place in this instance. He had to express his thanks to the hon. member for Mount Ida for the very able manner in which he had brought this subject forward, and he felt sure that in years to come the speech of that hon, member would be read with feelings of respect and admiration. He (Mr. Macandrew) had not intended to speak, but ho felt so strongly on the subject that he could not refrain from saying a few words in support of the Bill, (Hear, hear.) ■ Dr. HODGKINSON said that without espousing the cause of Mr. Barton, he would vote for the Bill, because it would have a tendency to settle tho question as to what powers the Judges should possess for committing for contempt. Mr. MACFAKLANE considered the power of commitment for contempt a monstrous thing, and he hoped that in the end some good would corae of the action now taken » we Dl Sir* GEORGE GREY intimated that he wished to address the House, and moved the adjournment of the debate. Tho Hou-’e adjourned until 7-30 p.®* Sir GEORGE GREY rose with diffidence to speak on so large a subject. He objected altogether to the Judges of the Supremo Court having tho power to order a person to gaol for life, a sentfnco which could not be appealed against to the Crown, and which probably the Judge himself oduM aptfevcim, Lawycre w hVd eViM wcl) vraSi too batty*

tho'tjgfli it waa an error. Ho knew that in Years gone by enormous privileges claimed Dy the Judges had been swept away, such as the power of torturing and pressing to death persona who refused to give evidence, and no affirmed'that every argument used by the Attorney-General iu favor of tho Judges having power to imprison for life could equally be used in favor of the power of the Judges to press witnesses to death, or to torture prisoners. (Hear, hear.) The arguments used had shocked, his sentiments of what was right. Assam was confounded with contempt. In the case ot Prince Hal and Judge Gascoigne it was an assault on the Judge, not contempt of Court, so in a case in New South Wales, where one barrister struck another in the presence of a Judge. He was charged and sentenced for assault. There was a great distinction. Ihero were many powers held by Judges which would not be tolerated now, and it was a fault of lawyers that they strained prerogatives. .That was their great fault. He went on to disagree with the argument that freedom of the. Bench was especially necessary m a democracy, and contended it was more necessary in monarchies, InEngland the Judges had protected tho liberties of the people, because they had always been chosen from the most intelligent and talented men. although it was distinctly proved that some Judges had been corrupted by office, and then it was tho advocates, the juries, and the accused who had protected the liberties of the people. (Hear, hear.) As for the power claimed for the Judges in this colony it had ceased by desuetude, and he felt sure that were a recent - decision of a, Wellington Judge brought be'ora the Privy Council it would bo declared bad in law. Why, under the law of Scotland to this day any person who celedrated or heard mass could bo put to death, but it was] non-operative by desuetude, and so was tbe law which enabled a Judge to send to gaol for contempt a barrister who waspleading the cause of his client. It did not become a New Zealand Judge in this time of progress to attempt to revive an obsolete custom. (Hear, hear.) It was said public opinion would be a sufficient check on the Judges ; but how was public opinion to bo learned ? By the Press ? Why the Press was completely under the authority of the Judges. It was said by the lawyers that the Judges who heard aud saw the offence should have the power to punish, but he contended that they should not have the power to keep the Press under their anthority by the fear of punishment. Ho declined to bow down to such idols as tho lawyers wished to set up and clothe with such hateful attributes as would render the Judges like the fetishes of an African suoerstition. (Hear, hear.) The House had the power of legislation, and would certainly confine the powers ot the Judges within proper I mits. It was a difficult thing to form public opinioo, but there could be no better means of educating public opinion on tbe absurdity of tbe claims of the Judges to those obsolete aud tyrannical powers. Nothing would more tend to free the people of tho colony and the Press of the colony ot these shackles than the exposure by inquiry and report of a Commission of the alight foundation upon which the right to act in this arbitrary manner rested. (Hear, hear.) He thought the hon. gentleman who had brought forward tho Bill deserved the thanks of the whole ot New Zealand, and he prophesied that the brilliant oration he had delivered the other evening would live long, and that the hon. gentleman himself, although only a student now, would have a great career, and would do great good, as Komilly, who came from the same stock as the hon. gentleman did, had done for Great Britain. He believed that a case bad been made out for putting the’ Judges on their trial. The Attorney-General, Mr. Bowen, Mr. Fox, and Mr. Whitaker had all practically admitted that to be so. Ho believed that this matter would result in tho powers of the Judges of the colony being thoroughly defined. (Cheers.) Mr. DE I.ATJTOIJ It had heard the close of the Attorney-General's speech with relief, because he recognised that he had been compelled to put aside his own feelings as one of the most advanced reformers in the Australian colonies in order to comply with the demand made upon his official position to defend tbe Judges. He (Mr. De Lautour) admitted ail that”the Attorney-General had said, which was simply a declaration that the Jedges had the powers,-looking at the matter from a purely legal and judicial point of view ; but he cited Hallamand other constitutional authorities to show that the right was obsolete, and further, h e contended that public sentiment was opposed to the exercise of the right. Then, if the right was not to be exercised, why should it be retained ? Why should it not be curtailed ? It was said there was no necessity to define the powers, that it was all clear, and that the relations of Parliament and Bench were clear. That was questionable. (Hear, bear.) Tbe Attorney-General and Mr. Whitaker said the Judges were nnder the power of tho House, and hon. members generally accepted that, but the Chief Justice oh tiie Bench said he cared neither for Press nor Parliament. (Hear, hear.) It might be said these were words of heat, but they were used more than once, and were either true or nnt- no. If untrue they should not be uttered ; if true, then the relations between Bench and Parliament were not clear. This was not the only case which had occurred. Only lately a dipsomaniac at Napier had been committed for contempt, and no doubt many cases occurred, although few acquired such notoriety as in this case. If this inquiry were refused there would bo no redress, except to move for an address to remove the Chief Justice from the Bench, and it would be a wrong act to take that step before any inquiry took place. He hoped that not only this wrong would be redressed, but that the abuses springing up in the Courts at the will ot Judges, iu the shape of rules to prevent litigants given verdicts by their fellow countrymen getting the fruits of their auccesafullitigation, would be done away with. (Cheers.) The question was then put, that tho Bill be how read a second time—Ayes, 27; noes, 30.

Ayes, 27.—Balgenfc, Ballanco, Barff, Brown. J. C. (Tuapeka), Carrington, De Lautour (teller), Dignan, Tislicr, George, Grey, Hamlin, Hislop, Hodgkinaon, Macandrow, SfcMinn, Moss (teller), Murray, Nahe, O’Rorke, Bees, Beeves, Seaton, Sheehan. Swanson, Taiaroa. Tole, tVaUJa. Pairs.—Ayes, Takamoana, Joyce, Bunny, Pyke, Feldwick, Noes, S&—• Atkinson, Bowen (teller), Brandon, Bryce, D'-usrlas, Driver. Fitrroy, Fox, Gibbs, Gisborne. Hobb*, Hunter, Hursthouae, John'ton, Kenny. Macfarlane, Mandcrs, McLean, Montgomery, Moorhouse, Murray Aynsley, Ormond, Richardson, Richmond, Kolleston, Bowe, Saunders, Seymour, gI evens. Stout (teller), Sutton, Tawiti, Teschemaker, Thomson, Turnbull, Wason, Whitaker, Wood, Woolcock. Palis.—Noes, Williams, Green, Curtis, Bussell, Beefcham. CUSTOMS TARIFF BILL. The Hon. Mr. BALLANCE,in moving the second reading of this Bill, did not enter into questions of financial policy, but explained the technical provisions of the BUI to secure greater protection to the revenue against fraud than did those at present in force. Bill read a second time. The House then went into commmittee on the Bill. Clauses 1 to 4 passed. Clause 4.—Reduction of certain duties.—Mr. Woolcock moved that that part of the clause reducing the duty on colonial wine be omitted, for the purpose of inserting the items sugar, &c., in the second schedule exempting it from total duty. He thought it absurd to reduce the duty on this necessary of life and not take it off altogether.—Mr. Bowen, while agreeing that it was of little use to the consumers or the trade and commerce to reduce the tax a little, thought the colony could not afford to lose the sugar and tea duties, and he should move that the whole clause bo struck out, so that there should be no reduction. The hon. gentleman would have done bettor had he struck the duty wholly off a large number of articles. He disagreed altogether with the policy of differential wine duty.—Mr. Gisborne wanted to know if the Government would make the land tax more, in order to make up the deficiency caused by the reduction of the duties.—Mr, MoLean was sorry he was not in the House when the Bill came onfor second reading. It would not have gone through so easily. The colony could not afford the reduction proposed.—Mr. WoolCOCK said if the duty was removed it would lead to tho establishment of jam manufactories in New Zealand.—The Hon, Mr. Ballance said the colony could not afford to lose tho £68,000, and the Government must oppose tho motion.— The duty on tea and sugar in this colony, even after the reduction had been made, would be higher In New Zealand than in any other colony, and that was not justifiable. Still, the Government could not do everything at once. As to the reduction cn Australian wine, ho called the attention of the House to the fact that id consequence ©f the proposed reduction New South Wales merchants were now urging the Government of that colony to meet the New Zealand overtures for reciprocity by striking off some of the duties on New Zealand produce ; and he also noted that in consequence of tho proposed reduction jam manufactories would probably bo started at Akaroa and Nelson.—Major Atkinson would like to know if it was true that tho Government wore going to drop the Beer Duties Bill ? [The Hon. Mr. BaLLANCE t No.] It was reported in tho lobbies that they were, and that if they did not thVir pVctaiu&zft rftfplftotbrß going tb m'oVe

that the Bills be read a second time in’ six months. Tho Treasurer ought to know the fate of these Bills before he reduced taxation. He then pointed out that tile Treasurer’s balance for the year was only £55,000, the supplementary estimate not having been provided for. That was hardly a Biifo'babuice. Then tho Minister of Public Works proposed to spend ail tho borrowed money before the end of June, so that as the House would not meet until after June tho public works must be stopped or money borrowed. He should oppose any reduction.— The Hon Mr. Ballance said that for tho past five years more than two-thirds of the votes taken had not been expended within the year, and it was quite impossible that two aud a quarter millions could bo spent this year.— Tho House divided on the amendment of Mr. Wooloock. On the question that the words proposed to be omitted stand part of tho question, —Ayes, 38; noes, 21. Amendment negatived.—Clause passed without amendment. The rest ot the clauses were passed. Schedule 1. —Mr. Saunders moved that woolpacks be left out of the list of luxablo articles —The Hon. Mr. Bai.la.nce .said it involved a large sum.—The House divided, and tho item was retained by 29 to 21.—Schedule passed. Schedule 2.—After some discussion the Hon. Mr. Ballance agreed to include timber iu tbe list of articles on which all duty was to be removed.—Mr. Whitaker thought such a course undesirable,—Mr, J. 12. Brown hoped the grain growers of the South aud the timber cutters in tbe North Island would not be laid at tho feet of the Tasmanian timber sellers on the one hand and the Californian grain growers on the other.—After considerable discussion on the second schedule, the item “grain” was retained by 25 against 19.—Mr. Turnbull moved that the next item “grain, ground,” be struck out, but tho amendment was lost bv 21 to 17.—0 n the motion of the Hon. Mr. Ballance, the words “ timber sawn, palings, shingles, and laths,” were inserted on the voices. The question was then put that the schedule as amended pass; but Mr. Macfaulane called for a division, and tbe schedule was passed by 27 to U. The Bill was then reported with amendments and ordered to be read a third time on Thursday next. The House adjourned at 1.30 a.ra.