PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES. Monday, September 2. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m. PETITIONS. Petitions were presented by Messrs, Be Lautour, Bignan, Montgomery, McMinn, Whitaker, Curtis, and Swanson. NOTICES OP MOTION. Notices of motion were given by Messrs. Wood, Gibbs, Curtis, Pyke, Richardson, McMinn, Hodgkinson, and Murray. REPORTS. Mr. BARFF brought up two reports from the Petitions Classification Committee. The reports were ordered to lie on the table. RAILWAY WORKSHOPS IN AUCKLAND. Mr, SWANSON asked the Minister for Public Works, —If he will lay before this House a statement containing the following information : —The cost of the railway workshops in Auckland ; the cost of the plant at present there ; a list of the materials now on hand, showing the cost of timber, rails, fuel, &c. ; to what accounts the whole are charged, and if to separate accounts, how much to The Hon. Mr. MAC ANDREW said there would be no objection to lay a return on the table ; in fact, it was at present in course of preparation. *■ Mr. SWANSON asked the Minister for Public Works, —If he will lay before this House a return showing the following particulars, for the last twelve months, in connection with the railway workshops in Auckland : The number of men employed ; the kind of work each man is employed on ; at what rate each man is paid ; the amount of time made by each ; the pay for overtime or extras, stating who has received it, and how much ; travelling expenses and allowances other than pay, with the names of the recipients, and how much each received, if any ; time lost by, or leave of absence given to, each man, and the reason assigned for such loss of time or leave of absence ? The Hon. Mr. MAOANDREW replied to this question in a similar manner. WELLINGTON HOSPITAL. On the motion of-Mr. Bunny, leave was given to introduce a Bill to enable the trustees of the Wellington Hospital to sell certain lands and buildings. The Bill was read a first time, and- ordered to .be read a second time on Thursday week. * ADMINISTRATION BILL. On the motion of the Hon. Mr. STOUT, the report was agreed to, and the Bill read a third time, and passed. IMPREST SUPPLY BILL, NO. 3. A message was received from his Excellency the Governor, transmitting the Imprest Supply Bill, No. 3. On the motion of the Hon. Mr. Ballance, the message was ordered to be considered in Committee of Supply presently. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. The orders of the day from 2 to 14 inclusive having been postponed on the motion of the Hon. Mr. Ballance, The House resolved itself into Committee of Supply. Iu committee, a further supply of £250,000 for wages, salaries, and contingencies for year ending June 30,1878, .was granted. The resolution was reported to the House, read a second time, and agreed to. WAYS AND MEANS. On the motion of the Hon. Mr. Ballance, the House resolved itself into Committee of Ways and Means. Mr, THOMSON said there was considerable objection to so much money being granted by way of imprest. Hon, members had no heart to go on with the Estimates, as the control of the public funds was virtually taken out of the hands of the House. Either the Estimates must be proceeded with at the very beginning of the session, or the financial year must bemade to commence at the Ist of October. The Hon. Mr. BALLANCE said that Imprest Supply Bills had been the custom for many years past. The present expenditure was going on at the rate of £60,000 a week, and if* the House did not go on with the Estimates the bringing down of Imprest Supply Bills could not be avoided.
Mr. McLEAN was surprised that a thick and thin supporter of the Government like the hon. member (Mr. Thomson) could find fault with tho present Government for asking for an imprest supply of only £750,000. Of course
nothing but a corrupt Government could do this at one time, but a liberal Government had succeeded to power, and to be liberal it was necessary, that they should have plenty of money at their, disposal. He (Mr. McLean) would vote for the passing of the present Bill, and he was only surprised that such a supporter of the Governmeut as the hon. member for Clutha should offer the slightest objection. Mr. 'MONTGOMERY thought the hon. member fox* Clutha ought not to bo designated a steadfast supporter of tho Government, as that hon. member was in the habit of speaking his thoughts, it mattered not on what sido of tho House ho sat. Ho (Mr. Montgomery) thought that tho Governmentoughtto havepersevered in tho Estimates, and set at least one day each week apart for that purpose. The Estimates ought to have been pushed forward as rapidly as possible, and tho Bills which the Government brought down ought to ha.vo been postponed until niter the Estimates were passed. This would have rendered tho system of Imprest Supply Bills unnecessary. After some further discussion,
Tho Hon. Mr. BALLANCE intimated that it was tho intention of tho Government to push forward tho Estimates as rapidly as wossible, and to follow the practice of the House of Commons, and bring down a Ways and Means Bill to give effect to the votes passed in Committee of Supply. (Hear, hoar.) Mr. STEVENS inquired when the Public Revenues Bill would be brought down. The Hon. Mr. BALLANCE replied that the Bill was drafted and in type ; it would be submitted to tho Public Accounts Committee in a few days. The Hon. Mr. RICHARDSON inquired when the public works estimates would bo brought down? The Hon. Mr. BALLANCE replied that these estimates would be brought down immediately after tho trip to Dunedin. Mr. WHITAKER considered that a great deal of time would bo saved if the Estimates were pushed forward in the early pari of each session.
After some further discussion, a resolution from Committee of Ways and Means was reported to the House and agreed to ; and leave was given to tho Committee of Supply and the Committee of Ways and Means to sit again next day. The Hon. Mr. BALLANCE having formally stated that tho Imprest Supply Bill was a matter of urgency, it was passed through all its stages. DISQUALIFICATION BILL (NO. 2).
The Bill was further considered in committee.
A division took place on au amendment to strike out the word “ any ” in sub-section I. of clause G. The word was retained by 42 to 24. Another division took place on the amendment to insert the words “ being at tho time Attorney-General” after the words "any person. The insertion of the words was carried by 47 to 17. Mr. Barton’s amendment, to insert tho words “or Solicitor-General, ” was negatived on the voices.
On the House reassembling after the dinner hour progress was reported. The Hon. Mr. STOUT moved that ail the orders of the day preceding that for the second reading of the Land Tax Bill bo postponed, in order to continue the debate ou that.
Mr. MoLBAN objected to the constant manipulation of the Order Paper. Many members supposed the debate would not come on that night, and the consequence was a thin House. The Hon. Mr. STOUT said the first orders of the day would have been got through in the afternoon had it not been for unnecessary discussion. The Government expected to have got through. The motion was agreed to. LAND TAX BILL. Mr. WAKEFIELD on rising was received with cheers. The first thing that struck him in the speech of the Colonial Treasurer was that that gentleman felt that the proposals of the Government needed apology. For an hour he had pot up straw men to knock them down again. First he said that the landed interest objected to taxation, though that objection had never made itself felt in the House, and then he went on to say that the landed interest approved of the'Bill. His (Mr. Wakefield’s) idea was that the present financial policy, at any rate the land tax, was quite an afterthought, it was not two months old, because it totally disagreed with the speech of the Colonial Treasurer two months ago. He then said he should propose an acreage tax, exempting up to 320 acres, but the present scheme was based on valuation. (Mr. Stout: No.). Why the Attorney-General had said such was the proposal, and further told his constituents at Dunedin that he did not believe in such a tax, but preferred a valuation, declaring there was no difference between the two if land below the value of £SOO was exempted. The fact was that the wild absurdity of the scheme of the Colonial Treasurer, which would have struck out the most valuable part of the property of the colony, had been pointed out to the Government, and the scheme of the Attorney-General was adopted as the scheme of the Cabinet. Then it would be seen that the present scheme was a crude afterthought, and needed all the apologies which could be brought forward. The Colonial Treasurer could find no better arguments for his tax than those which Mr. Gladstone and Mr, Fawcett applied to the state of affairs in England, and what Mr. Cooley said who Mr. Cooley was few knew and less cared ; and why should his opinion be taken as to the manner in which the people of the colony were to be taxed. This very system which was now proposed on the authority of Mr, Cooley had been condemned over and over again, and had lately been rejected in Mr. Cooley’s own country. The fact was there was great absurdity in preferring the, opinions of foreign writers unacquainted with the circumstances of the country as to what should be done above the, practical experience gained by the colonists who represented the people, and to quote Mr. Cooley was as preposterous as if Sir Stafford Northcote was to get up in the House of Commons and say there must be no more Governors'of colonies appointed because Mr. Stout, of New Zealand, said it was impolitic. (A laugh.) He denounced the financial policy of the Government because it raised up class-feeling and bore too heavily on colonial industries. The Colonial Treasurer had said pledges of last session mustbekept, and this policy was in accordance with pledges; but in the first place the present Treasurer had made no pledges last year, and in the second place, a surplus to the good, in ■ consequence of the large accession of land fund, had so changed the circumstances of the case as to render a land tax quite unnecessary. Coming to the Bill, he wanted to know what unimproved land was, the term itself was an absurdity, and unless some better definition than appeared in the Bill could bo given the Bill would be unworkable. Improvements commenced many years ago, and if the tax assessor were to go back prior to first improvements there would be nothing to tax, and if he did not go so far back, then the term was an absurdity. He also protested against any exemption. The Colonial Treasurer had defendedjhis proposal in this respect because a similar exemption occurred in respect to the income tax. But that was illogical, because it was admitted on all hands that that was the blot of the English system, in that it introduced class hatred. Yet the Colonial Treasurer said this was not a class tax. But apart from that, it was totally unfair to exempt any property. Another absurdity in the Bill was the valuation of all land at £1 per acre and taxation upon that value. Why there were thousands of acres in the North Island not worth 2s, 6d., and the tax would amount to a large rental, and people rather than pay the tax would abandon the land. That was called a “ policy,” but he considered it the most childish nonsense and not worthy the sober attention of any man. Then again the tenants of the Crown were called upon to pay taxes on Crown lands—they were to be treated as if the land was their own freehold, as it they could not be turned out of the land to-morrow. The bon. member for Mount Ida had said it was equitable in Otago because the tenure was equal to freehold, and in Canterbury it was proper because the rent was lower; but, as a fact, in Otago the tenure was not as good as freehold, while in Canterbury there was no tenure at all, and the grazier there had to pay a rent of 7)d per sheep, and in Otago it was bat 3 1 d per sheep. Referring to the other proposals, he thought the Colonial Treasurer was going to turn the Treasury into a chandler's shop. There was a pennyworth of this and a halfpennyworth of that, and threepennyworth of something else, and the profits nothing. Ho condemned the beer tax as expensive of collection, harassing to the brewers, and resnltless to the Treasury chest. The hon gentleman was quite contradictory, for first he said the tax would fall not on the brewers but on the consumers, and then he wont on to apologise for taxing the brewers by saying they had got great advantage in the past owing to the tax on English beer, while for a last turn round ho said less beer would ho drunk, and after all nobody would pay the tax. The tax was quite unnecessary, and very
harassing on a colonial industry. He also complained of the tax on joint-stock com-, panics, because it would fall on the most useful article in the country, foreign capital and small savings, while the princely incomes derived from mortgage would altogether escape. Such a tax ought not to be considered at a time like this when money was not wanted by the Treasurer. In dealing with the tariff, why had tho Treasurer not taken the whole duty off sugar and tea, if he had found it necessary to touch it at all ? Had he known anything of tho commerce of the country he would have known that tho great bother the mercantile community had to contend with was the Custom-house work. Why had he not taken the tax off altogether and given a free breakfast table at once, and made up the revenue in some other way 1 Au Hon. Member : Where from ?
Mr. WAKEFIELD : Why, take off the exemptions in the laud tax, and put a tax on all realised wealth, If revenue was wanted; but if it was not wanted why harass the country at ail. He then dealt with the extra 2s. on sparkling wine in au equally trenchant manner, and criticised the increased lax on boots as falling heavily on the workingmen, wim bought the ready-made English article, while the well-to-do only went in for the colonial manufacture. It seemed to him that although the working man was petted and told he was the master of the.country, he was to catch all the taxation. There could be no doubt the poor man would feel the land tax most severely. The squatter with his large estates and flocks of sheep cared little for a couple of hundred pounds a year, but the tax would be very hard on the struggling farmer who had just purchased his farm. And so with the sugar remission. Tho poor man would not get his sugar any cheaper per lb., while the large landholder who bought quantities in bond would derive au appreciable benefit from the lowering of the tax. As to the grain duty remission, he quite approved of the argument of the hon. member for Cheviot against that, and said the Treasurer’s enthusiasm for free trade mast be small when he, at the. same time as he remitted the graia*duty, retained the duty on timber, to please the North and to catch one or two votes. On fencing wire, too, there was a remission of duty. Who used that but the rich man ? Was it necessary to bring down such a muddled policy? There was no necessity for the Treasurer to got revenue or to please political opponents. Why, it the hon. member for Egmont had brought such a policy down his life would have been made a burden to him till he got off tho Treasury bench. All the Treasurer had to do was to bring down a scheme conceived on some definite principle for it 1 to be accepted, but be could not do- so, and instead had brought down this muddling, ohaudlering policy. The finance was the worst feature of the Government policy, and could not possibly run concurrently with the Public Works policy. The latter scheme was a good one, and that of the Treasurer must go to the wall, Tho Land Fund and the resources of the laud mast be taken to provide ways and means for the Public Works policy, and not to increase the variety of the stock in the Treasurer’s chandler’s shop. Where was the logic or sense of taxing property, and then giving it back to the local bodies for charitable and other purposes. Had the responsibility been thrown on the local bodies, and the land tax left alone, the financial result would have ’-been the same, and the expense of collection and distribution prevented. Before any land tax was proposed the subsidies should have been abolished, because the principle of subsidies was this; that the General Government had too much money, and to prevent the necessity of the local bodies levying taxation, subsidies out of the surplus were paid If the Treasurer wanted money, then his proposal should have been not to tax more but to give away less. In conclusion, he would point out that the country was in the happy position of being able to arrange its taxation without a view to revenue, butsimplyforthereadjustment of the incidence of taxation, and that could best be done by abandoning the subsidies and devotingthe Land Fund entirely topublic works. He had at great personal sacrifice helped to • put the Government in power, and in saying what he had he had spoken as ah independent member who wished to see the Government united enough to bring down good measures, and strong enough to carry them. He moved, as an amendment, —That all the words after “ that” be omitted, with the view of inserting the following words :—“ Whilst this House is of opinion that whenever the necessities of the colony require further revenue direct taxation should be resorted to, it is of opinion that no such taxation should be adopted while subsidies and funds raised by taxation are paid from the Consolidated Fund to the local bodies.” (Applause). After a pause, no one rising to speak, the Speaker piooeeded to put the question, when— Mr. McLEAN rose. He had not intended to speak, and was not prepared to criticise, bat must express surprise that no one on the Ministerial benches had risen to reply to the able speech of the hon. member for Geraldine. He proceeded to criticise the policy of the Government, as contradictory in itself and totally at variance with the wants of the country, a matter which he regarded as the result of Ministers junketing about on “the stump ” during the recess. After referring to the dealings of the Government with different provinces in regard to the Land Fund, he alleged that the surplus of the year was made up principally out of balances of loans, at any rate to the extent of £73,000 out of £123.000. Yet the ■ Treasurer made a virtue of handing over £IOO,OOO surplus to the Public Works Account. Why, it ought never to have been taken away from the Public Works Account. As to the future, their calcuation of getting five millions of Land Fund in the immediate future was quite fallacious. There was little or no Land Fund in Canterbury, and the slightest disturbance would soon greatly reduce the value of the Waimate Plains, for which they anticipated half-a-million. He hoped no such disturbance would occur, because he should be sorry to see those valuable lands sacrificed. Coming to the Public Works Statement, he approved of the changes in the management of the railways and other matters; and dealing with the indebtedness of the colony, which was stated at twenty millions, said he was pleased to find the Ministry had at last arrived at a true statement of the accounts. Why, last year after hounding down the late Ministry for alleged misstatements, they stated the total indebtedness to be twenty-four millions. Yet this year, a new loan having been floated in the meantime, it was set down at twenty millions. He also ■ pointed out that with regard to the hundred thousand floating balance and the Brogden claims, the Government who whilst in opposition denounced the late Government |’nad followed exactly the same course. Dealing with consolidated stock matters, he deprecated the treatment tho Agent-General had received at the hands of the Government. He spoke highly of the services rendered to the Government at Homo by Sir Julias Vogel, and alleged that his efforts had not been confined to public matters, for within the last few years three millions of money bad been introduced into tho colony by speculators owing to the efforts of Sir Julius Vogel. He complained that the Government had . taken credit for redactions when none had been made. Indeed, the Estimates showed an increase in every department; for while some good men had been discharged, new appointments had been made for political purposes. As to the expenditure, he gained from the Financial Statement that £300,000 of the land revenue was necessary to meet departmentaljexpenditure exclusive of £2SO,OOOfor the management of the Crown Lands Department., Would the House tolerate that sort of financial government 1 It was very much to bo regretted that the Treasurer bad departed from the principle he had enunciated before he became a member of the Ministry, viz., the withdrawal of tho subsidies. How much bettor would it have been, had he desired to relieve the working man, if ho had merely taken so ranch off the Customs, and reduced the subsidies to that extent. That would have been a simple, statesmanlike course, and would have been widely different to the two-penny-halfpenny policy adopted. The House must bo careful what it was about in the finance of the country, especially in reference to the taxation of tho capital of the country. He knew for a fact that large sums had lately been withdrawn from circulation in Now Zealand for investment in other colonies, and that more was to follow, and would continue to follow, if capital became frightened. He pointed out, in reference to the alteration of the ad valorem duties, that the Government had taken some articles out of the ad valorem list, upon which no fraud was possible, while silks and such articles, the value of which it was difficult for tho Custom House officers to arrive at, were left untouched. It was a mockery to make such professions when there was really no attempt to carry them out. The duty on sonje of the articles most used by tho working men had been increased from 30 to 138 per cent., the average increase being about GO per cent., He dealt with the duty on boots and shoes, tho remission of the grain duty, the retonsion of the timber duty, the
I duty oh wines, and then proceeded to apeak 6u the question of the land tax. The hon. member for Mount Ida had stated that the Public Works, policy had benefited the runholder, but he took the opposite view, for the opening up of the country had had the result of selling the best of the Canterbury lands beneath the lessee, and the same thing had occurred in Otago. It v/as monstrous to tax the runholder as a freeholder, and there would be no end of difficulty in determining in the cases of freeholders even what was the unimproved value of the land. He coincided with what had fallen from the hon, member for Geraldine in reference to the beer tax ; and as to the tax on joint stock companies, such an unjust Bill would never be carried into law. The Government would, he was certain, withdraw that, and he was sorry they had ever proposed it. He dwelt at some length on the unfair operation of the tax, as pressing very heavily on the local institutions, such as the Union Steam Shipping Company and various colonial insurance companies and banks, while foreign associations were let off scot free. At the pro* • sent time there were license fees, stamp duties, note duties, and other taxes, all falling heavily on these local institutions. He would not care in the least had the Government proposed to put a tax on all invested capital in circulation. It would then have fallen on all alike. He was afraid the Government was too theoretical, too fond of quoting Mr. Cooley and others, and not sufficiently practical, Ur. HODGKINSON approved of a land tax, but disagreed with the provisions of the Bill exempting certain lands, and he thought the financial scheme of the Government defective in that it failed to tax all property. He intended when in committee to attempt to get the exemptions removed, because the small farmers were mostly men of small means, who had been brought out to the colony at the public expense, and had, as it were, been lifted out of obscure poverty and placed in a country where their fortunes were secured. Therefore they should not be exempted from taxation. He approved of the principle that the unimproved value of the land should be the basis of taxation, and trusted the proposition of the late hon. member for Hokitika (Me. Button), last year, to introduce the principle into the Hating A.ct, would be carried out ere long. The absence of any proposal of taxation upon realised, wealth in the shape of money lent on mortgage gave him regret; and as to the tariff changes, while in the main he agreed with free trade, he considered the country should not give inducements to importations from places like California. The statement of the hon. member for Waikouaifci as to the Laud Fund being used to the extent of £750,000 a year for ordinary expenditure had surprised him, and ho hoped if it were correct that the Government would adopt means to prevent a recurrence to that state of affairs. As to the subsidies, he admitted that as a matter of principle it was an undesirable principle in our system of Government, but under present-cir-cumstances, the Land Fund not being localised, they could not be suddenly withdrawn. Mr. MACFAULANE agreed in a great measure with what had fallen from the hon. member for Waikouaiti and the hon. member for Geraldine in their criticisms of the financial policy. He believed that much of the outcry in reference to fraud in connection with ad valorem duties was mere rubbish, and that the changes proposed were unnecessary. As to the beer tax, half the proceeds would be spent in the work of collection ; and the land tax proposed would be unfair and partial in its operation. Let there be an all-round tax on all kinds of property, and nob upon one particular description. Speaking on knowledge gained from trade, he condemned the proposed remission of duty on wheat and flour as most unwise and prejudicial to the colony. Dr. WALLIS had expected great financial reform, but it seemed to him that the Government scheme of reform meant taking off £IOO,OOO with the one hand and putting it on again with the other. He congratulated the Government on their adhesion to free trade in their recognition of the teachings of political science that the unearned increment belonged to the State, and on their introduction of the thin end of the wedge of an income-tax by the imposition of a duty upon joint stock companies. He objected strongly to the tax upon beer—taxing the dinner table in order to give a free breakfast table. The only excuse offered by the Ministry was that luxuries should be taxed, but he contended that in moderation beer was as much both a luxury and a necessary as tea was. Tea in moderation was good, but its excessive use was prejudicial to health, and it was just the same with beer. Beer, indeed, was more a food than tea, and the position, influence, and history of England as compared with that of China showed that as a national beverage beer was far more beneficial. The tax would not fall equally upon the rich and the poor, and its incidence violated one of the chief principles of political economy, because to give the State £40,000 a-year £120,000 a-year must be taken out of the pockets of the persons upon whom it would principally fall. The taxation of this article, too, would result in the people taking stronger stimulants than, beer, to the detriment of their physical and moral health. The tax was not much now, but no doubt it would be increased in time to come, when the inflation of the colony’s revenue by means of the expenditure of borrowed money came to an end. It was strange that the Colonial Treasurer should propose a tax of this sort in the same breath as that in which he proposed a remission of that on Australian wines ; or in other words, that he should encourage what might be called a foreign industry and handicap a local industry; and stranger still that this Government should place additional taxation on the laboring classes, for the tea and sugar remission which were supposed to compensate for the beer duty would not in reality so operate, because the remissions would lead to no reduction whatever in the price of tea and sugar to the working classes. He charged the Government with gross waste and extravagance, and said that unless they mended their ways it would prove their ruin. On the motion of the Hon. Mr. Gisborne, the debate was adjourned till next day. The House rose at 11.45.
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New Zealand Times, Volume XXXIII, Issue 5440, 3 September 1878, Page 2
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5,059PARLIAMENT. New Zealand Times, Volume XXXIII, Issue 5440, 3 September 1878, Page 2
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