HUTT COUNTY COUNCIL.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXIII, Issue 5369, 12 June 1878, Page 3

HUTT COUNTY COUNCIL.

The usual monthly meeting of the Council ■was held in the Provincial Hall at 1 p.m. yesterday. Present—Messrs Mason (in the chair), Morgan, Jackson, Lancaster, Chew, Speedy, Dick, Smith and Monaghan. CORRESPONDENCE.

A circular was received from the Wairarapa East County Council, forwarding a copy of the following resolutions passed by that Council, and requesting the co-operation of the Hutt County Council iu urging the importance of the question on the Government : —“ That this Council is of opinion that the Government should be strongly urged during the next session to make provisions for raising loans for county purposes by a Central Board of Works, with authority to distribute such amounts among the j counties requiring loans on a different basis, taking security on local rates, as such a body would undoubtedly be able to raise loans on much more favorable terms than could be done by isolated local bodies.” Councillors Smith and Taylor said that no doubt the question would come on for discussion at the approaching conference. A letter was read from the Tuapeka County Council, forwarding copies of the following resolutions passed by that Council : “ 1. That in the opinion of this Council all reserves within any county district should be vested in the County Council ; and if necessary to legislate upon the matter, that the Government be requested to take action during the next session of Parliament to enable them to give effect to the same. 2. Contingent upon the above being carried, that a' copy of these resolutions be forwarded to the various County Councils and the contemplated conference, asking their consideration and co-operation in the matter.” The Chairman said that no doubt the matter would be discussed by the conference. A letter was read from the Westland County Council, hoping that the Hutt County Council would be represented at the approaching conference. A letter was read from the Colonial Secretary’s office, granting the use of the Provincial Hall for the meeting of the conference. It would, however, be necessary to confer with his Worship the Mayor as to the days on which the hall would be available, as the City Council had a general authority to use it for their meetings. A letter was read from the Public Works Office, informing the Council that directions had been given to place a sum of £SOO to the credit of the Hutt County on account of the Mnngaroa to Waikanae-road, So soon as the Chairman certified that this sum is expended, a further sum will be passed to the Council's banking account. MB. M'OLELLAND’s APPLICATION. The Chairman said, with reference to an application from Mr. McClelland for compensation on account of the Upper Hutt and Wai-kanae-road running through his section, that he had ascertained Mr. McClelland’s Crown Grant had not been issued, and he had therefore no claim for compensation. (Hear, hear.) OPENING UP THE COUNTRY. Councillor Smith thought it would not be a bad idea if the Hutt County Council and other Councils urged upon the Government the necessity of opening up roads through new blocks. He need not tell the Chairman, as a member of the Waste Lands Board, that if new blocks were disposed of it would be quite impossible for the counties themselves to open up roads out of their own funds. There were neither means placed within the reach of the Waste Lands Board nor the County Councils to do so. A large quantity of land would be disposed of directly, and people would not be able to get to it without the means of communication. It was urgently necessary that steps should be taken in the matter. ACCOUNTS. Accounts to the amount of £493 6a. Bd, were passed for payment. KABORI-MAKABA DISTRICT. The Chairman said the next business was the consideration of Councillor Lancaster’s notice of motion for a grant of £4OO to the Karori-Makara District, and be begged to lay a statement on the table showing the amount which had been derived from the district. Councillor Lancaster said he had looked at the returns, and found they were for the year 1877, but there was a further sum of £389, out of which the Government would have to pay subsidy, and the Council would probably receive it at the ead of this month. These facts clearly showed that the £4OO which he now asked for was not in excess of what was their just right ; but if it were urged that the Council were not at present iu funds to meet it, ha was quite prepared to receive £2OO at the present time, and £2OO mote when the money had been received from the Government, so as to enable the district to carry on some public works that were required to be /lone. If this met with the views of the Council, he was quite prepared to accept the vote on those conditions. It was quite clear that the KaroriMakara ristriot was entitled to the amount, after deducting all expenses from the revenue raised in the district. The rates for last year were considerably more than those of the previous year, so that even if he asked for £SOO he would not be looking for more than the district was entitled to ; but they were content to ask for £4OO, to enable them to carry out certain necessary works in the district. He would not make any further observations at present, but would reserve his remarks until he was called on to reply; meantime he begged to move the motion standing in his name. The Chairman said he was informed by the clerk that the subsidies were paid up to the Ist of June. The subsidies were calculated upon the previous year’s rates. Councillor Monaghan, in rising to second the motion asking the CounoE to grant £4OO to the Karori-Makara ‘District in two instalments, the last of which would be received when the CouncE got its next payment from the General Government, said he thought they were not asking for anything out of. the way, and he trusted the Council would grant it. There was no use going in for log-roUing; they only asked for what was fair and just. Councillor Taylor said he did not think that the members for the Karori-Makara District had asked for anything unreasonable. If they had stopped at the resolution for £4OO all at once, he should certainly have opposed it, because he did not think they were entitled to it. It appeared, according to the way in which it had been shown, that they would be entitled to a certain amount considerably short of the £4OO, but as Councillor Lancaster had altered the resolution, and now asked for only £2OO, he (Councillor Taylor) was prepared to support the resolution. He did so for this reason, believing that the Karori-Makara District was situated veiy differently from many other parts of the district in the_ Hutt County. By the Clerk’s showing the district was entitled to £230 odd. The Chairman inquired if Councillor Lancaster intended to alter his resolution so as to divide the amount into two instalments ? ConncElor Lancaster replied that he asked the CouncE to sanction a vote of £4OO, £2OO now and £2OO when the Council received the money coining to it from the Government. £2OO only would be absolutely useless to undertake the work that was contemplated. What they wanted was to get a guarantee from the Council that the money would be paid, so that on the strength of that assurance they coaid go into the work with some faith. £2OO would not be sufficient to commence a work of such magnitude as they contemplated doing. They said they were prepared to accept £2OO as soon as the Council was in funds, and £2OO more at a future time, when the CouncE would receive the subsidy on the rates collected in the district for 1878, which amounted to £389. . ..." - The Chairman inquired if he rightly understood Councillor Lancaster to move that£2oo be granted as soon as the Council was m funds, and £2OO more, in two equal instalments V Councillor Lancaster said they were prepared to accept the £4OO now, or in any way the Council wished to give it. ■ They were prepared to wait for £2OO until such time as the Council received the money from the Government, but they wished the Council to pass the £4OO at the present time, finding that it was due to the district. . The Chairman- : Then the resolution stands for £4oo '{ „ Mr. Lancaster ; Yes ; I don’t want it all at once, or ask for more than wo are entitled to. We only ask for £2OO at present out of £389. Councillor Smith said he had listened to the remarks of Councillors Taylor and Lancaster, but in his opinion nothing had been shown that thcKarori-MakaraDistrict was entitled to the money now asked for. In the first place, ?“® r ® wa » not the slightest doubt that when tfio Government gave these subsidies to the Louaty Councils it was the intention that tney should be devoted to mako and maintain mam lines of road. No doubt the subsidy was intended for that purpose. The proof of 18 this, that all the Boards throughout '' subsidy for every £1 they collected ■ ihey were going to make a fatted ot A Kmri-Makara District if they i fc '“ B money, because they X would b© getting £% for every £l, which was

not received in any other part of New Zealand. If the Karori-Makara District was entitled to this money, why should not the Local Board at the Hutt be similarly treated, and Kaiwarra and Johnsonville also in the same way ? Why, also, should they not come to the Council and say, “ We want our share ? ’ Councillor Lancaster : They yet ,ook their share.

Councillor Smith said that if the Karori District, as people were always preaching, was to become such a populous district, was nothing to bo paid by it for main roads ? The people of Kaiwarra and Johnsonvilo paid more rates in proportion than those of KaroriMakara, and they paid tolls besides, while the Karori-Makara District paid no tolls, aud had got the bast roads in the county at the prescat moment.

Councillor Monaghan : They pay for it out of their own pocket ; the Government don’t pay for it. Councillor Smith continued to say that he knew some districts iu Councillor Taylor’s riding that had to pay 2s. 6d. aud 3s. 6d. in tbo £. The Ohario District paid 3s. 6d. He maintained that the Council would not be justified in voting this money in the present financial condition of the Council, and they even did not know whether they were going to get the subsidy from the Government. They would not get their subsidy, at all events, until after the session met. Besides, the CouncE would run out in November next. There would then be a fresh election, and if they passed this vote now, they would be banding down a promise to the next members of the "Board, which they might decline to carry out. Winter was coming on, the Oouucfl did not know how much money it would require, and under all the circumstances, he should oppose Councillor Lancaster’s resolution.

Councillor Chew said it was never intended that the Karori-Makara District should have a portion of this subsidy at all. It was nonsense to talk of giving this money to the Karori-Makara Board. If the CouncE meant to go on in this style, they would have no funds at all at their disposal. They should not be able to maintain main roads, and would then have to give up. Under the circumstances he could not support the motion. Councillor Dick considered that the KaroriMakara District was fairly entitled to this money. Kates had been placed sa districts with a view of getting a greater subsidy than would otherwise come to the County Council. The Karori-Makara District had contributed by rates towards the swelling of that subsidy, and he thought the district was entitled to at any rate £249. It would be better for Councillor Lancaster to accept the £2OO, which he (Councillor Dick) considered the KaroriMakara people were justly entitled to, than to risk getting nothing by insisting on the full amount being voted. In reply to the Chairman, Councillor Lancaster reiterated that £2OO would not bo a sufficient guarantee for them to go on with the contemplated works. Contractors might turn round and say—“ How do you know you are going to get the other £200.” He was prepared to stand or fall by his motion, believing £4OO to be their just right and just due, and he hoped the CouncE would have the good sense to give them their right. With regard to what Councillor Smith had said, all he (Councillor Lancaster) could say was that they had a perfect right to this money. They did not ask for a farthing belonging to the Wellington Highway Board District ; they did not wish it. They were differently situated ; they did not use the main roads an inch. If they could maintain their own road to enable them to enter town, so much the better for them. With regard to other districts having paid highly, it was a well-known fact that the settlers in the Karori-Makara District had paid £1 an acre almost for the making of roads in the district. Kates had been levied by the Provincial Government for the making of the Makara-road, aud the people taxed themselves at the maximum at a time when the north - eastern district was not paying a penny. They had not only to pay 9d. an acre, but also a special rate. They now came to the Council and asked for what they conscientiously knew to be their just rights. He asked the Council to affirm the grant of £4OO, and to pay the money when they got the funds.

The Chairman : Might I ask you to amend your motion to the effect that £2OO be paid as soon as the Council is in funds, and £2OO more out of a future subsidy ? Councillor Lancaster : I will accept that.

The resolution was amended accordingly. Councillor Monaghan desired to say that by an Ordinance of the Provincial Council he was taxed to the extent of 2s. in the acre, and in no other district in New Zealand was that done than in the Makara District. Councillor Speedy said that if the KaroriMakara District was entitled to £2OO, he thought they were entitled to all. He felt bound to support the motion. They had no main roads in the district, and he felt this was only asking justice. They were quite willing to take £2OO now, and to wait for the remainder. The Chairman them put the resolution as follows, —That £2OO be paid to the KaroriMakara District, and the further sum of £2OO out of future subsidy. For, 7 : CounciUors Mason, Monaghan, Dick, Speedy, Morgan, Lancaster, and Taylor. Against, 2: Councillors Chew and Smith. The resolution was therefore carried. HUTT TOLL-GATE. Councillor Morgan, persuant to notice, moved, —That the Hutt toll-gate ceased after the first of April. He thought this had been shown to be a meat unequal tax on a portion of the inhabitants of the county, and he did not hesitate to say for one moment that the impost, if continued, would amount to a tax imposed on the few for the benefit of the many. It must be remembered that in the aourse of a tew months the railway would be opened to Featherston ; secondly the traffic which they now had must certainly *»aae, and then the whole of the impost would fall on the people adjacent to the bridge. Take the Upper Hutt, for instance ; it was part and parcel of the Hutt ; there were five saw-miUs there. Now, the whole of the produce of those mills came to WelUngton by railway ; in fact, posts and raEs, and even butter, eggs, and milk, and passengers, as they knew, also came by railway, so that the impost, if continued, would not affect that portion of the Hutt in the slightest degree, but would fall on those adjacent to the Hutt bridge. Now, he should like to know—and, if possible, he should like it to be pointed out—why people living eight, ten, and thirteen mffes from WeUington cannot come to this city without paying two tolls, when the settlers on the other main trunk line of road can travel over ten, fifteen, twenty, thirty, forty, or fifty miles, and only pay one toll ? It reaEy seemed to him that the continuation of the Hutt bridge toll would be so manifestly unjust that he certainly thought that if he were to say much more on the subject, he should be insulting the understanding of the Council, because he maintained that any unbiassed person looking at the matter with an unprejudiced, unbiassed mind must come to the same conclusion he had himself arrived at. AU he wanted was that an act of justice should be rendered to the Hutt people. As ho had said before, if the toll werejabolished, and if any expensive works were afterwards necessary to be done, or largo protective works to be carried out, if he were then in the Council, he should be ono to come there and ask the CouncE to re-impose a toll. His chief argument why the toll should be abolished was simply this, that the Hutt people had no right to pay two toUs. A large number of people in that district had to pay two tolls; and he maintained, with regard to the Wairarapa-road, as it must be called, that the traffic ou that road would shortly cease altogether, and that that road would not cost half as much at the end of this year as it was costing now. He used this as an argument why the Council would be justified in abolishing what he called a serious inquity, in fact, on a few people. When ho brought this motion forward before, something was advanced by Mr. Taylor in the,shape of an argument or reason why tho impost should not be aboEshed. He said the Hutt people could afford to pay it, as their land was better. He (CounoiEor Morgan) granted the land was better. But supposing Councillor Taylor purchased ten acres at the Hutt for which he gave £IOOO, and so much at Pabautanui, for which he gave £IOO Bhould not that land at tho Hutt produce more to pay the common interest 1 He contended this most unjust special impost should not be continued on the people of the Hutt. He simply asked tho Council to render to the Hutt people a common act of justice, and prevent them paying two tolls, while a large proportion of the inhabitants of tho county, travelling three times the distance, had only to pay one. He begged to move the resolution standing m lus name. Councillor Speedy suggested that the motion should be altered to the following effect. “ That tho tolls bo continued for throe months after the Ist November next, for the purpose of forming a special fund, to be devoted to the repairs of tbo bridge and adjacent protec-

tiva works.” If the resolution were so altered, he would be prepared to support it. Councillor Morgan said he had no objection to accept this amendment. Councillor Smith said that in the first place the amendment was not worth the paper it was written on, because in November next there would bo a fresh election, when, in fact, the new Council could rescind it. When Councillor Morgan proposed this resolution he took care to leave out the most important question of the lot; that was the question of finances. If any other member —say Mr. Speedy—had proposed the resolution, he (Councillor Smith) would not have miaded it ; but Councillor Morgan represented the poorest riding in the Council, and the most expensive one ; and how a man could come into the Council, knowing that they had not enough money to pay their laborers for breaking stones on tho road, and propose such a resolution as this, passed his understanding. Councillor Morgan’s riding possessed one of the most expensive linos of road they had got in the county. All the income that was derived from that riding amounted to £l5O-a-year subsidy, and there were 21 miles of main road through that riding, which cost £2IOO annually to beep it in repair. Councillor Morgan knew that every yard of metal that went ou the Mungaroa Hill cost the Council 7s. 6d. a yard, and how, he would ask, wore they to maintain 21 miles of road out of £l5O a year ? He must say that there had been a little bit of log-rolling in this matter. They said to each other, “If you will help mo to-day X will help you with your log to-morrow.” It was only the beginning of tho end. It was just laying a system to break it all up. He maintained that no member of the Council could show him that, without this toll-gate, they could keep up that road in anything like fair order. The Council had already voted away £4OO to the Karori-Makara District, and whore were they to get funds from it they did away with this toll-gate 1 If any member of the Council had come forward and proved that they could do away with this toll, he would have voted for its abolition. If the argument would hold good that with £l5O they could keep up a road that cost upwards of £2OOO a year, then be would say no more on the subject. He should oppose the resolution .as far as his vote would go. CouuciUor Taylor said he was going to oppose the resolution of Councillor Morgan. The people of his riding had not the slightest claim on the Council for the removal of the toll. He never remembered making such a remark about the value of land at the Hutt as Councillor Morgan had attributed to him. His remark was, that if they spent aU the money raised in their own district they had no reason to complain. It could be shown that more money was Jspent in this district than they were entitled to. The Hutt had always had the lion’s share out of the Council, and yet CounciUor Morgan asked them to remove this toll-gate. The Council was getting something more than £IOOO ay ear f rom this gale. It was evident that they were short'of money. They were scarcely yet in the middle of winter, and all the funds they had got in hand for all purposes was about £3ll at their disposal to work upon, and their engineer would no doubt teE them that all the money expended had been judiciously spent, and that they could not do without the money from the Hutt toll-gate, and it was quite evident that before that day three months they would be in debt £SOO or £6OO, and yet they found Councillor Morgan coming there and asking the Council to remove this toll-gate, with its £IOOO of revenue to the Council. It was a most unreasonable request, and came with a very bad grace from the .'person who moved the resolution. It had been shown that the district contributed very little to the funds of the Council, and yet the expenses were enormous. It cost £IOO per mile to keep them main road iu order. They were receiving at the present time more than their fair proportion of the funds of the Council, and he thought it was most unjust to the Council to attempt to take the toll-gate away. He should certainly oppose it. ConncElor Lancaster would like to say a few words on the subject. It could not be said of him that he had an interest particularly in any of these ridings, beyond doing what lay in his power in that Council to have justice done to each aud every part of the county. As he said before, ho believed that the Hutt toll-gate was unjust, and the people there had no more right to pay these tolls than any other part of the county. It was an understood thing that this bridge toll-gate was to be removed when the bridge was paid for. It had been paid for over and over again. Councillor Taylor : It has been shown to this Council that it has never been paid for. Take the blue books of the Provincial Council, and I challenge any Councillor to show that it has been paid for. Councillor Lancaster said CounciUor Taylor forgot that the blue books of the Provincial Council had had nothing to do with it for two or three years past. Was there not £2OOO coUected from this bridge during the past two years, and where had that money gone to ? The tolls that were levied on the bridge before that were paid for the purpose of paying for the bridge, and the County Council got £2OOO from it during the past two years. The bridge had paidforitaelf twice over. To his mind, it had paid for itself, and he thought the time bad arrived when tolls ought to he abolished. Councillor Smith accused the members of logrolling. There had been no log-rolling on his (Councillor Lancaster’s) part. On a previous occasion he advocated the removal of the tolls, and he did so now, and trusted tho Council would abolish them. CounciUor Smith laid great stress upon losing a considerable portion of revenue. He was not one of those who took a despondent view of things, and thought that the rates of the county were all stationary Not so by any means. The rates would increase, as everybody must know who observed the increased value of land in the city aud suburbs. The county would share in this prosperity, and therefore the Council had no right to look at this state of things in a despondent view because they were asked to take off an unjust tax. He could understand Councillor Smith coming to the CounoE and advocating a toll-gate to be put up at Porirua or Tawa Plat. He believed the people of the Hutt were willing to keep the bridge iu repair, and to rate themselves again should any damage occur. He should be prepared, when the time came, to vote for the motion. Councillor Chew said that as long as he sat iu that CouncE he should like to see the Council pay its way, and if anybody could show that the Council could pay its way by doing away with this toll, he would vote for the motion. CounciUor Monaghan said he would vote for the motion. CounciUor Dick said he could not see his way clear to vote for the motion. Councillor Speedy thought they could plainly show, if a trial were made, that they could do without this toll-gate. Councillor Taylor : Show us before you remove it. CounciUor Morgan, in reply, said that not a single Councillor had stated that tho money had been justly got, He made the assertion that this toUgate was an iniquity—and he repeated it. He did not know that the arguments against the motion called for any lengthened remarks, except one or two of them. It was said by CounciUor Chew that the Council should pay its way. Granted it should pay its way. What he (CounciUor Morgan) said at first was, that the Hutt people should not be compeUod to pay two tolls and other people only one. He stated also that on the opening of the railway to Feathers ton the traffic, as far as tho Wairarapa road was concerned, would cease. He then stated—ha might say, on his own authority, but he thought he had the authority of tho engineer as weU—that the Hutt, or Wairarapa road, he might term it, as far as traffic was concerned would not cost half of what it had hitherto cost to keep it in repair ; and these’ were tho reasons why that monstrous impost should be removed. Ho did say so, and thought so still, that if it was removed they would still be able to pay their way, according to Councillor Chew. He quite agreed with that. The only thing that he (Councillor Morgan) was afraid of was that when CounciUor Taylor rose he should hear that gentleman propose to move the tollgato to Ngahauranga. (Laughter.) If so, he (Councillor Morgan) should have withdrawn his resolution. That would have been just. Councillor Taylor made an observation that this motion came with a very had grace from him (CounciUor Morgan), but he thought he had a perfect right to propose any motion that was not contrary to the standing orders of tho Council. It had been said, also, that his riding waa a poor one ; but whether this was so or not, he maintained, with Counoilloi Lancaster, that their duty was to do justice to every part of the county, no matter what portion of it they might each represent. Councillor Smith stated it took £2OOO a year to keep the roads in his (Councillor Morgan’s) district in order. ConncElor Smith : I can prove it. CounciUor Morgan ; I should like you to

do bo, as it would enlighten mo; In acceding to my motion to day, the Council will simply do an act of justice. I think I can show you that you can do without the money. First of all, your traffic ceases. You don’t get tolls from that quarter, and you don’t require money to keep the roads in repair, but even it yon do, I should not be ashamed to come here and ask you to levy a rate on the whole county to maintain the roads of the county. I ask you to look at it in a fair and just way, and not permit the Hutt people to pay two tolls to other people’s. one. I shall say no more on the subject, believing that the motion wilt be carried.

Councillor Morgan’s motion and Councillor Speedy’s amendment were then incorporated, and put by the Chairman as follows “ That the toll payable at the Hutt Bridge shall cease on the Ist November next, and that the tolls be continued for three mouths after the Ist of November next, for the purpose of forming a special fund to be devoted to the repairs of the bridge and adjacent protective works.” For—Councillors Mason, Lancaster, Morgan, Speedy, and Monaghan. Against—Councillors Taylor, Chew, Hick, and Smith. The resolution was therefore carried. SPARKS FROM ENGINES.

Councillor Speedy moved, —That the clerk be instructed by this Council to bring under the notice of the Government that hedges have been set on fire outside the railway line by sparks from the engines, and that serious damage may be done to holdings along the line if not prevented. Councillor Smith seconded the motion, which was agreed to. POST AND TELEGRAPH OFFICE AT PAHAUTANUI. Councillor Smith said that at the request of the settlers in the Pahautanui District he had brought under the notice of the Council the necessity of erecting a station at Pahautanui for a ipost-office and telegraph station. The chairman had communicated with the Government, and the letters that passed on the subject would now be read. The letters, which have already appeared in our columns, were then read. Councillor Smith said the conditions imposed by the Government were ridiculous, and he hoped the Chairman would bring the subject before the Government again. NOTICE OP MOTION. Councillor Dick gave notice of the following motion for next meeting ; —“ That the sum of £IOO be paid to the Wellington Highway District, to be expended in the Wainui Riding, Hutt County.” The Council then adjourned.