PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXII, Issue 5211, 4 December 1877, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Monday, December 3. The Hon. the Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m. THE HON. MR. CAMPBELL’S ABSENCE. Before proceeding to the business of the day the Hon. the Speaker intimated that he had received the following telegram from the Hon. Robert Campbell : —“Only received your telegram two days ago ; am unable to attend owing to attack of ague.” At the suggestion of the Hon. Mr. Mantell, the Hon. Colonel Whitmore moved, and it was agreed to, that, under the circumstances explained in the telegram, the Hon. Robert Campbell be excused from attending. PETITION. The Hon. WI TAKO presented a petition from Major Kemp and others to the effect that the Maori Real Estate and Management Act should not be made law this session. QUESTIONS. In reply to the Hon. Mr. Pharazyn, who asked the Hon. the Colonial Secretary,— Whether the Government will, during the recess, take into consideration the claims of the settlers on the west coast of the North Island for compensation, either in confiscated lands or otherwise, for losses sustained by them during the last native rebellion, with the view of legislating for the same during the next session,—the Hon. Colonel Whitmore stated that the principle involved in the question was the same as that involved throughout New Zealand. The matter was one which, except by distinct vote of the other branch of the Legislature, the Government could not give effect to or bring under the consideration of Parliament, especially in the present state of the finances of the colony. In reply to the Hon. Mr. Russell, who asked the Hon. the Colonial Secretary,—(l.) Whether the Government instructed Mr. Drummond, the Returning Officer for the Riding of Waipukurau, and Mr. White, the Returning Officer for the Riding of Porongahau, to return only one member for each of these ridings instead of two, as directed by the Governor’s proclamation, contained in the New Zealand Gazette of the 2Sth November, 1876 ? (2.) If they have taken the advice of the law officers of the Crown as to the legality of such a proceeding ? (3.) What steps they have taken, or intend to take, in order to carry into effect the law as to the return of two members to the County Council of Waipawa, for each of the Ridings of Waipukurau and Porongahau ?—the Hon. Colonel Whitmore gave an affirmative answer to.the first part, a negative to the second ; and with regard to the third, he could not exactly state what steps the Government might take in the matter, as they had not as yet fully considered it. As soon as they had done so, such steps would be taken as might be considered necessary. MOTIONS. The Hon. Mr. MILLER mo ved, —That the report of the committee uponthe lease of a portion of a recreation reserve, at Oamaru, to Messrs. Hay and Barr, laid on the table on Saturday, the Ist December, be agreed to, and that a copy be forwarded to the Government for their consideration.—The Hon. CoioneT Whitmore observed that it would be necessary to give three months’ notice, which should be done.—The motion was then put and carried. The Hon. Mr, RUSSELL moved, and it was agreed to, —That there be laid on the table of this House the original Gazette proclaiming the divisions of the County of Waipawa, and the representation of the different ridings of the said county, together with a copy of all correspondence on the subject of any changes of such representation, or of boundaries of such ridings, with any minutes relating to such changes. PUBLIC RESERVES BILL. On consideration of the following reasons assigned by the House of Representatives for disagreeing to clause 16 being erased, and the insertion of the new clauses 16 and 17 —1. Because it is absolutely necessary for the proper and efficient working of the Land Registry and Land Traufer departments, and for the security of individual titles to propfijjti#?, that there should be some recognised authoritive plans in the oplony, and the section 16 erased made due provision for this. 2. Because it is unfair to corporations or other governing bodies in which reserves have been vested, that the Governor should.have power to seize them tor colonial purposes, and only give compensation for buildings. If the reserve is really required for colonial purposes, it would be safer and more expedient for the public interest to take it by Act, and on terms that may be declared in the Act itself, —the Hon. Colonel Whitmore moved, and it was agreed to, that this Council doth not insist on clause 16 being erased, or on the insertion of new clause 17, but that it doth insist on the insertion of new clause 16. Subsequently the Hons. Colonel Whitmore and Messrs. Hall and Wilson were appointed managers to draw up reasons for such a course being adopted. SECOND READINGS. The following Bills were read a second time, and ordered to be committed presently: — The Stamp Act 1875 Amendment Bill, the West Harbor Borough Mayoralty Election Validation Bill, and ' the Native Land Act Amendment Bill. IN COMMITTEE. Tile Council then went into committee on the Mines Bill, the Lands Bill, and various other Bills, and at a late hour adjourned till tho usual hour next day. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Monday, December 3. The Speaker took the chair at half-past two o’clock. NEW BILLS. On the motion of Sir George Grey, a Bill to amend the Public Revenues Act was introduced, read a first time, and the second reading fixed for the following day. The Timaru and Gladstone Board of Works Property Vesting Bill was read a first time. LEAVE OP ABSENCE. An extension of leave of absence was granted to Dr. Wallis and Mr. Reader Wood for ten days. WASTE LANDS BILL. On the Speaker putting the question that the above Bill be read a second time, Mr. Rolleston called for a division, which resulted as follows: —Ayes, 30; Noes, 26. GOVERNMENT. Baigent Gisborne Sharp Ballanco Hamlin Sheehan Barff Hislop Shrimski Brown, J. C. Kelly Stout (teller) Bryce Wacandrew Swanson Bunny Macfarlano Taiaroa Carrington Montgomery Thomson Do Lautour(teU'r)Naho Tolo Dignan Roes Wood, W. Fisher Rowe Woolcook. OPPOSITION. Atkinson Hursthouse Russell Becthara Johnston Seymour Bowen luunsden Stevens Burns McLean Sutton Curtis Moorhouso Tawiti Fitzroy (toller) Ormond Teschemakcr Fox Reid Wason Gibbs Richmond Whitaker Hunter Rolleston (teller) In reply to a question, the Speaker was understood to say that the Bill would have to go

I before the Waste Lands Committee.—Major Atkinson desired, to save time, that the Land Bill and Financial Arrangements Bill should be considered together, and asked the Government to make a statement of their proposals. There was a strong opinion in the country that they did not understand finance, and were unable to form an idea of the effect their proposals would have upon the country. He moved that the House adjourn.—The Hon. Mr. Sheehan said that by following the usual course and taking the Bills separately the House would be placed in possession of the proposals of the Government.—Mr. Stout thought it was advisable to adjourn, and have the Bill referred to the Waste Lands Committee.—Mr. McLean read extracts from Hansard to show that when Sir Julius Vogel proposed to raise the price of land in all parts of the colony 25 per cent., he was opposed by Sir George Grey, who said it would put a stop to settlement in Auckland. Yet the Premier now brought down a Bill which increased the price of land in Auckland 100 per cent., and in some cases as much as 300 per cent.—Some further discussion took place, and ultimately the House adjourned at 3.30 till half-past seven, the Waste Lands Committee to consider the Bill in the meantime. MESSAGE FROM HIS EXCELLENCY. On the House resuming at half-past seven, Sir George Grey stated that there was a message from the Governor, which his Excellency considered of urgency, and requested that it be immediately placed before the House. It contained correspondence relating to the proposed visit of Sir William Jervois in connection with the defences of the colony. Sir William Jervois wrote that he would be prepared to visit New Zealand in the second or third week in December, and requested that the Hinemoa should be sent to Hobarton to convey him here. A reply was sent by Ministers that the Hinemoa’s services being required here, she could not be sent to Hobarton. On receipt of this, his Excellency wrote to Ministers, pointing out that the services of Sir William Jervois had been obtained through the Secretary for the Colonies at the request of the late Miuistry, and that considering his position as Governor of a neighboring colony, and the object with which he would visit the colony, itwould be only proper that,a steamer should be placed at his disposal. His Excellency could conceive of no more important service than preparing for the defences of the colony. Sir George Grey replied that the state of the finances of the colony would not allow of the Hinemoa being sent. , They had more to dread from the common enemy within than from external force. The Miuistry hoped arrangements might be made to do away with the visit of Sir William Jervois, as the Home Government would defend this colony from attack by foreign vessels. His Excellency, in reply, again expressed his regret that the Government did not recognise the importance of the subject, and desired that the correspondence should be laid before Parliament. On the motion of' Sir George Grey, the correspondence was ordered to be printed. FINANCIAL ARRANGEMENTS BILL. Sir GEORGE GREY, in moving the second reading of the above Bill, said it would be remembered that his colleague, the Colonial Treasurer, had stated that no law should be in existence which would excite the cupidity of one part of the country and a sense of injustice in another part. That was one point in this Bill which the Government proposed to redress. His colleague had also laid down that an equilibrium should be established between revenue and expenditure. He felt confident that the measure now before the House would go far to accomplish that object. It was said that such a Bill should not be brought forward without consulting the people, and it was against his convictions he was compelled to force the present Bill through this session. But the difficulties were such that delay would render them almost insurmountable. It was well known that the Land Fund was already gone. There would have actually been a deficit against the Land Fund. It was estimated at .£740,000, and against that there was to be charged £643,000. Besides this, it was also proposed to deduct from Canterbury £58,000, and from Ota<m £109,000. The Government had believed the time had come to put a stop to such dabbling with the Land Fund, and also that the time had come when the finance of the country required that the Laud Fund should become colonial property. The consequence of the present system was that there was a profuseness of money in one part of the colony and great want in another. Under that system of charging against the Land Fund there was a deficit to be met of £IIB,OOO on the 31st December. Under the proposed system every district in the colony would receive 20 per cent, of its land revenue. The land revenue up to the present date was £850,000, and they calculated that by the end of the present year it would be £900,000. But what the Government at present had principally to deal with was the revenue for the first six months of next year. It was calculated that the revenue would be £550,000, the charges against which would be £320,000. Out of the gross amount twenty per cent, would be paid to the district local bodies. The Government would desire that this per centage should go to open up the outlying districts, and not be distributed over the settled centres; but the Ministry were unable to bring down a measure for that purpose this session, and would hand over the twenty per cent, to the local bodies. He had stated that there was a deficit of £138,000, but he had not taken into account the £40,000 to be received from the Feilding settlement, votes which would probably be unexpended, and the deductions which would be made in the public service. He believed that as near as possible an equilibrium would be established. Major ATKINSON said in the Financial Statement the Colonial Treasurer had stated that there would be an absolute deficit of £240,000. He had some knowledge of the public accounts of the colony but, lie failed to comprehend the figures of the Premier, and he challenged any gentleman on the Government side to get up and explain them. If the people of Auckland (the half of the North Island) got £20,000 under the proposals of the Government Canterbury would get £60,000That was what he (the Premier) called allaying the cupidity of one part of the colony without exciting discontent in another. They had a right to demand an estimate of the revenue and expenditure for the next sis months. The Iron, gentleman had accepted his (Major Atkinson’s) figures. The whole deficit of £IIB,OOO occurred in the Auckland province. But if the surveys were pushed on in that province the full amount would be received. The fact was that the late Government did not calculate the revenue from Auckland on the first six months. The Government, to equalise the levenue and expenditure, would have to make up £318,000, and he called upon any gentleman on the opposite side to point out where they would get this amount from. There were also the provincial liabilities to be charged against revenue, and that would make a further deficit of £600,000. He knew it was an absurdity to charge the provincial liabilities against revenue; but that was a statement made by the Colonial Treasurer, and it had not been withdrawn. However, the whole question was now before the Public Accounts Committee, and the country would soon be able to judge whether he or the present Government was correct. The Premier had stated that the late Government proposed to take the Canterbury land fund without the shadow of law. But they proposed to deal with it in the same way as the present Government—by proposals laid before the House. With reference to the remark that the late Government had already taken the Canterbury land fund, the enormous sums paid to that province would disprove this. Under the present Bill the 20 per cent, would go to the populous districts, as its distribution was based solely upon rates, whilst under the County Act it was distributed with regard both to area and rates. If the hon. member drew out a correct .list of revenue and expenditure, it would be found that there was a deficit o£ £200,000. Mr. REES said the only thing that could be done to save the credit of New Zealand would

be to take the Land Lund. Mr. Rees spoke a considerable length, condemnatory of the hnan cial policy of the late Government. Mr. BOWEN said the hon. gentleman win had last spoken had criticised the finance o late years, but there never had been a e 01 shown without some provision being mafli to meet it; yet such was absolutely the casi in the finance of the present Goverumen There was no doubt that sooner or later then would have been legislation settling the Lam Fund. But he had always held that beton taking such a step the people ihoiild be con suited. It was ridiculous to say that the lari Government proposed to lay hands upon tht Land Fund without the sanction of law. Witt regard to the disposal of land, he believed that the worst possible way to dispose of it would be sale by auction. The capitalist and speculator would be enabled by that system tc defeat the hona fide settler in obtaining land. He believed that the two proposals (d the Government, that of diverting the Land b und from opening up districts and the system of sale by auction, would have a very injurious effect on the settlement of the country. The lands of Canterbury had been sold on the faith that the land revenue would be spent in the district. The country was not prepared for such a law * as that no land should be sold for less than £1 per acre, for in the poorer districts it would absolutely stop settlement. He did not think that it mattered much what price they obtained for the land long as such price was sufficient lo open up the

country. The proposal to distribute the 20 per cent, of the Land Fund upon rates would give little or no money to those sparsely'settled districts where the expenditure was most needed to open up the country. The Hon. Mr, GISBORNE was not sure that the estimated revenue of the late Colonial Treasurer would bo fulfilled, and he would desire that the present Government should prepare a budget of receipts and expenditure for the next six months. However, he much preferred the definite proposals of the present Ministry to the policy of their predecessors, and if he were a settler of Canterbury or Otago he should much prefer the open course now proposed iu regard to the Laud Ruud, than to have the sword of Damocles hanging by a hair over their heads. He thought some arrangement should be made that the 20 per cent, of the Land Fund should be distributed so as a fair proportion of it would be spent iu outlying districts. Sir ROBERT DOUGLAS said the price fixed for lands in the Waste Lauds Bill would absolutely debar the outlying districts in Auckland from receiving a single penny, as the price was so high that no land would be sold, and a stop would be put to settlement. Mr. GIBBS also spoke against the Waste Lands Bill, and stated that in the province of Nelson it would stop the sale of land, and the consequence would be that the districts of that province would not benefit by the Financial Arrangements Act. Mr. W. WOOD spoke against a uniform price being adopted for the lands of the colony. Climate and other considerations should be taken into account. He hoped that a provision would be made in the Bill to exempt Southland. He would have liked to consult his constituents with regard to the Government proposals, for he felt certain that they would not meet with their approval. Still, he would vote for the proposals, and hoped to be able to justify his action to his constituents.

Mr. HUESTHOUSE was of opinion that the Land Bill of the Government was a very pernicious measure as far as the district he represented was concerned. There was no laud in that district worth £1 per acre. It was difficult to retain the sons of settlers there now when the land was 7s. 6d. per acre, and under the present proposals they would be compelled to seek their fortune in another part of the country. Mr. BEETHAM said that the hesitation in his district to adopt the county system did not arise from any desire to shirk taxation, but from a knowledge that the means at their disposal would not be sufficient to carry on local government efficiently. He had long looked upon the large revenues expended in other parts of the colony as unfair, whilst other portions were absolutely devoid of means. He regarded the colonialisation of the Land Fund as a just proposal, and he would vote with the Government on this occasion. He would go further than the proposal of the Government, and would desire to see the whole of the Land Fund go into the Consolidated Revenue. Mr. JOHNSTON said the Premier had stated that the Land Fund bad already been taken by the late Government, but that could not be reconciled with the fact that Canterbury had received large subsidies, to the extent of £400,000, out of the Land Fund. The speaker then went into figures to show that there would be a deficit this year to the extent of over £300,000, and he would therefore vote for the Financial Arrangements Bill, as that deficiency would have to be met out of the land revenue. The reason he abstained from voting with the late Government was the unsatisfactory nature of their financial proposals, and not having laid before the country a proper statement of what amount it would take to complete the public works of the colony. He would desire the Government to reduce their proposal to borrow from four millions to two millions. He could see no advantage from taking up the Treasury bills, and he thought it would not be to the credit of the colony to float such a large loan as £4,000,000. They would have to look in the face a very large amount of taxation, for they could not expect the land revenue to continue at the rate of £900,000 a year. If the Government only borrowed £2,000,000 this year, and next session brought down a statement of the rail ways to be constructed, and the amount of land which would be thrown open for settlement, then they would be in a position to know their monetary requirements. Mr. STEVENS said the main question was whether it was right and proper that the people should be consulted before making up the deficit in the revenue out of the Laud Fund. The proposals of the Government materially affected the province of Canterbury, where the revenue arising from lands was much larger than in any other part of the colony, and consequently the receipts accruing to that district under the present system would be im-

measurably larger tbau by putting the land revenue into the colonial chest. The Premier had not shown that he would equalise revenue and expenditure by taking the land revenue, and probably they would have to meet a large deficit next session. He submitted that the whole colony should have been _ afforded an opportunity of expressing an opinion on the Government proposals. Mr. MONTGOMERY explained his reasoes for voting against the late Government, They had broken hath in regard to the Land Fund. They bad promised that the_ land revenue of Canterbury should be left intact for local purposes ; but this year it was proposed to take from Canterbury in an insidious way £58,000. If the means for making roads and bridges were taken away from Canterbury and Otago, they could depend upon it that purchasers would not be found for the land. He would therefore vote against the proposals of the Government for taking the Land Fund, though on other ojaestions they would receive his support. It was proposed to take the Land Fund because it was pleasant, not because it was just. The present Bill was not a settlement of the question, for there were members of the House who were opposed to any portion of it being set apart for local purposes. The finance of the Government was not sound, and he believed next session they would have to meet a larger deficit. He would oppose the proposal to borrow four millions, and would not give his vote for a larger sum than two millions. Mr. WASON said it was very unkind of the last speaker to vote against his friends on a question on which they staked their existence. Mr. Wason then proceeded to show that the Government had failed to carry out the promises given in the Financial Statement. Ho moved that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. Mr. 110LLEST0N characterised the proposals of the Government as a grievous wrong upon the part of the colony ho came from. Ho had no confidence in any proposals emanating from the present Government. Their policy

was one of counteraction. He earned t Wellington members not to vote with the present Ministry. The supporters of the vernment at Auckland had adyoca e se P‘ ‘ tion. He would vote against the Government on the three Bills now before Parliament. Mr. ORMOND said the position of tne Government would bo that they would ® P in office by the votes of gentlemen “ ke self who were otherwise opposed to them. The Government would have k eea ’ n minority on the Laud Bill had some , Opposition not abstained from voting. m tended to vote for the Ministry this session although he believed by next session they would get the colony into a great mess. He voted against the Land Bill, because he thought it would be adverse to the settleme of the North Island, and as having to do with the Land Fund question. Mr. Stout and Mr. Reid having addressed the House, the Bill was carried by 45 to U. The following is the division list: GOVERNMENT. Atkinson Henry Simnur Baigent Hislop Seymour Ballance Hursthouso 2 lar P BarlT Johnston (teller) Sheehan Beetham Joyce o „ Brown, J. C., Kelly o Utt °"„„ Bryce Kennedy Swanson Curtis Macandrew Taiaroa lie Lautonr Wanders lakamoana IMgnan Worris i,?" 111 „ Fisher Murray Thomson Gihbs Nahe w'Uiams^ Grey o ™ B KeS ond Wood W.. Hamlin Kowo Woolcock OPPOSITION. Bowen Montgomery Shriraski Hunter Eeid (teller) Stevens Lurasden Richardson Teschemaker McLean Eolleston Mason (teller) The House adjourned at 1.30 a.m.