PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXII, Issue 5196, 16 November 1877, Page 4

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Thursday, November 15. The Hon. the Speaker took the chair at--2.30 p.m. ■ MOTION WITHOUT NOTICE. The Hon, Dr. POLLEN moved, by permission of the Council, without notice, and it was agreed to, —That a message be sent to the House of Representatives, asking permission for Messrs. Walter Johnston and O’Rorke toattend and give evidence before the Waste Lands Committee. NOTICE OF MOTION, The Hon. Mr. HART gave notice that on next sitting day he should move, —That in the opinion of the Council it would be desirable that next session a committee of the Council should be appointed to act jointly with a committee from the House of Representatives in considering all local Bills, &c. MESSAGE. A message was received from the House of Representatives, stating that they agreed in the amendments made by the Legislative Council in the Public Reserves Sale Act and other Bills ; also, a message to the effect that the House of Representatives had granted leave to Messrs. Pyke, Reid, and De Lautour to attend and give evidence before the select committee on the Strath-Taieri and ClydeRailway Bill. BILLS. The following Bills were received from the House of Representatives, and their second readings fixed as under :—The Kakauui Harbor Board Act (the Hon. Colonel Whitmore, Wednesday next); the Waikouaiti Harbor Act (the Hon. Captain Eraser, Wednesday next); the Taranaki County Reserves Act (the Hon. Mr. Hall, Monday next); the AVaikouaiti Athenaeum Laud Act (the Ho i. Captain Fraser, Wednesday next); the Balclutha Athenaeum Act (the Hon. Mr. Hall, Monday next); the Borough of N»w Plymouth Reserves Act (the Hon. Mr. Hall, Monday next) and the Church Trust Property at Little River Exchange Act (the Hon. Mr. Hall, Monday next.) THIRD READINGS. The following Bills were read a third time and passed, and a message to that effect was ordered to be transmitted to the House of Representatives ; The Wyndham ShowGround Reserve Bill and the Education Reserve Bill. WTNDHAM RECREATION RESERVES BILL. When this Bill came on for its third reading the Hon. Captain Eraser rose and asked the opinion of the Hon. the Speaker as to whether or not the Bill came under the heading of “ Money Bills,” and, if it did, whether it was competent for the Council to pass it. The Hon. the SPEAKER said he would' taka a short time to consider, and reserved his decision. EDUCATION BILL. This Bill was further considered in committee, and the new religious clause, introduced by the Hon. Mr. Buckley, was negatived on a division by a majority of one. The following part of sub-section 2, section 76, was struck out :—“The first of these certificates shall, in respect of the child obtaining it, exempt the parent or guardian of such child from payment of the capitation fees hereinafter prescribed for a year from the period when it was obtained ; and the second shall confer a like exemption for six months from a like period ; and the same child may obtain a certificate from year to year.” The following new clause, also introduced by the Hon. Mr. Buckley, was carried on a division by a majority of 1, the numbers being 13 to 12 : —Whenever any twenty-five or more householders in any education district shall signify in writing to the Education Board of such district their desire to be constituted into a separate body for educational purposes, it shall be the duty of the Board to convene a meeting of such householders for the election of a school committee in the manner provided in Part 111. of this Act, audit shall he lawful for the Board to grant the committee so elected such aid in books, school apparatus, and money as the Board shall think expedient, or, at the option of the committee, such aid may be granted in money only, inclusive of the value of such books and school apparatus as would otherwise be supplied by the Board : Provided always that every such committee shall provide a schoolhouse or schoolhouses to the satisfaction of the Board and shall appoint and pay the teacher or teachers of such school or schools, every such teacher having first obtained a oertifieate of competency, as provided in section fortyfour of this Act : Provided also that all books used in any such school shall be approved by the Board, and that in every respect wherein no special exception is made in this section, every such school shall be a public school under this Act, and subject to the provisions which this Act makes for the conduct, management, and inspection of public schools, and that every such school shall be open to all children between the ages of five and fifteen years Without fee or payment of any kind.” Eventually progress was reported on the Bill, and leave was obtained to sit again next sitting day, the Hon. Dr. Grace giving notice that he should then move the introduction of the following new clause;—“At every election for a school committee, every voter shall be entitled to a number of votes equal to the number of the committee to be elected, and may give all such votes to one candidate, or may distribute them among the candidates as he thinks fit.” PUBLIC RESERVES BILL. This Bill was committed, but the hour of adjournment interrupted the discussion on it, which was resumed during the evening sitting. Eventually progress was reported, and leave obtained to sit again, as was also done subsequently with the District Railways Bill._ The Council sat until a late hour in the evening. HOUSE OE REPRESENTATIVES. Thursday, November 15. The Speaker took the chair at half-past 2 o’clock. MR. LUSK’S CASE. Mr. REES gave notice of motion to the effect that the fine of £SO imposed upon Mr. Lusk be remitted, as it was not the opinion of the House that he had been influenced by corrupt ’motives in infringing the privileges of Parliament. LEAVE OF ABSENCE. On the motion of Mr. Lusk, leave of absence was granted to Mr. Button for the remainder of the session on urgent private business. RAILWAY IN WELLINGTON DISTRICT. A Bill was introduced, on the motion of Mr. Travers, to provide for the reservation of laud for the purpose of constructing a railway from the Hutt via Pahautanui and Waikanae to Palmerston North. The Bill was read a first time, and the second reading fixed for the following day. FOXTON HARBOR ENDOWMENT. The Foxton Harbor Endowment and Borrowing Bill was introduced by Mr. Johnston, read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Wednesday next. DISQUALIFICATION BILL. Sir GEORGE GREY moved the second reading of the above Bill. It was opposed by Messrs. Barff, Rees, Whitaker, Reid, and others, and supported by Mr. Montgomery. Ultimately the Bill was read on the voices. PERSONA!. EXPLANATION. Mr. KENNEDY made a personal explanation regarding the late question, of his alleged disqualification. He stated that last year whilst ia Wellington ha saw an advertisement in the papers calling for tenders for the supply of coal. He was desirous of seeing the coal of New Zealand penetrate into all markets, and he induced a party to send in a tender. That tender was accepted, but he found that the party who tendered was not prepared to take up the contract, and he felt himself bound to adhere to it, and consequently he (Mr. Kennedy) became the contractor. He had not gained anything by the transaction ; in fact, ft had been a loss to himself, and he intended to have returns laid on the table which he thought would show the colony had been a gainer to the extent of £2OO or £3OO. The whole contract was a small one—only some 300 tons of coal —and could in no way influence

hia conduct in Parliament or prejudice his action to his constituents. No member of the House was more desirous than hi rose It ot securing the purity of Parliament. He concluded by stating that he was now entirely free from any contracts with the Government.

COLLIERY RESERVE BILL. On the motion of the Hon. Mr. Macandrew the Grey, Boiler, and Westport Colliery Re- ' serve Bill was withdrawn, on the understanding that a Bill would bo introduced on the following day dealing with the matters contained in the°Bill withdrawn. FISH PROTECTION BILL, This Bill was read a second time, reported without amendment, read a third time, and passed. MINES BILL. The Mines Bill was considered in committee, and read a third time. IMPREST SUPPLY. The Hon. Mr. LARNAOH gave notice of an Imprest Supply Bill for next day. NATIVE AFFAIRS. The Hon. Mr. SHE KHAN, in moving the second reading of the Native Banda Act 1873 Amendment Bill, said the Bill was of a purely technical character, and had no relation to the statement he was about to make, and which would have been made earlier had it not been for ill-health. He was still suffering, and therefore asked the indulgence of the House iu speaking. No one had less idea last session than he had that this y ear he would be Native Minister. Greatness had been thrust ÜBonhira; or, if he bad achieved it, he had done BO in spite of being the best abused man m the House in regard to native matters. He referred to and quoted the Hon. Mr, Fox a remarks in. the late debate in reference to his connection with the “ Repudiation Party He was then unable to reply, but would do so now. He was now about to propound the policy Mr. Fox was so .anxious for Mr Pox*s statement about an envoy from the' Repudiation Party visiting Rangitikei lately was untrue. His connection with the Repudiation Party, moreover, was simply that of solicitor and client. Had he not allowed motives of public policy to influence him, that connection would have been much more profitable. He bad lent himself to no improper practices, but l.ad given honest and as far as possible able service to his clients in defending their legal rights, and his services had, he believed, been instrumental in averting another kind of warfare than that in Courts of Baw. He had been the advocate for the natives, but in his present position had, of course, ceased to be so. His having been a faithful advocate, however, qualified him to be an impartial advocate. He had confined his advocacy of cases to Hawke’s Bay, and refused to take them up elsewhere, as he would not lend himself to any general agitation, hut confined himself entirely to ordinary professional work. He bad refused to take up many cases against the Government, and had prevented many being brought. He bad neither aided nor abetted nor suffered the results which had taken place at Titiranm, but had discountenanced them m every way. He held in his hand telegrams showing that the alleged cattle-stealing cases in Waikato of which so much was made had no real foundation. Surveys had certainly been stopped in certain places, but it was because of misapprehension in the native mind about reserve i being made. These were no more fair arguments against this Government than Sullivan’s murder and other outrages were against the lata Government. He felt hurt at Mr. Fox’s statements, remembering how Mr. Fox had climbed into power as the -advocate and defender of native interest. For the last five or six years native affairs had been in one man’s hands, with only an occasional progress report. Therefore, he would go more into detail in his statement than would otherwise have been necessary. A policy had prevailed up to 1859 termed ‘ the flour and sugar policy,” which was in many respects an advantageous one. If things could be recalled, the Waikato war which took place in 1863 would not have been entered into. From then to 1869 successive wars took place. Since then almost unbroken peace had prevailed. He was not disposed to overlook the benefit resulting to this island from the Public Works and Immigration policy, and he was glad to. say that, overlooking all party differences, it was largely due to Sir Donald Mcßean that peace had prevailed since 1869. It would have been suicidal to_ m any way have provoked a conflict at a time when the colony was carrying out such a policy of public works, and if occasional outrages had been allowed to pass unpunished, it was, on the whole, better for the general good of the whole community. Booking at the chance of a future outbreak, the population in the North Island was 23,639 males and 19,769 females distributed to a large extent to the north of Auckland, and on the East Coast. There was absolutely no chance of war in these places. The only possible place was in the King country, where there was in all only a native population of 5255, of whom only 2656 were males. Against these there were 25,000 friendly natives and a European population of 40,000 men. The native population was also steadily decreasing, and all evidence which the Government could collect pointed out that there was no longer reason to fear a native war. Even in the King country the natives were becoming reconciled to the position and anxious to cultivate friendly relations. He did not think even in the King country an armed force could now be raised against Europeans. It was desirable this should be known, as the Public Works scheme was not yet finished, and much more money would yet have to be borrowed to complete it. It was satisfactory therefore to know that there was no possibility of further native disturbances. If the public works were extended to the native districts all chance of rebellion would disappear. The roads already made were valuable as having satisfied the natives, and also opened up the country in a strategical point of view, so that the whole country could now be easily traversed. Justiee in native districts was administered by an army of native officials. In one district some time ago he found every man receiving Government pay. There was a large field open for reduction in this direction ; but the system of medical comforts and assistance might fairly be continued : it was only extending to the native districts a system in force amongst Europeans in large cities. As to education, the Maoris were wonderfully quick in learning. Up to 1840 more Maoris could read, write, and work sums than a like number of Europeans ; but all was taught them iu Maori, and therefore in all their dealings they were thrown into the hands of a special class, from which cause had grown up some of the most objectionable features of the Native Department. He bore testimony to Sir D. Mcßean’s efforts to promote education in English. This year he proposed to spend £11,580 only on native schools, or £4OOO less than last year ; and with this 50 village schools would be supported and others assisted. He would like if possible to increase this sum, so as to have more schools, and to secure what was most desirable, a first-class lot of teachers. With regard to another social question, the Government felt it their duty to assist the efforts which the natives were now making to suppress intemperance. The best way of doing this would be to allow the natives to regulate their own districts in this respect, and in this way he believed they would in time be able to shake off habits of excess. Already a decrease was visible, owing partly to the reduction in Government expenditure amongst them, but also owing largely to the extension of Good Templary, and Government should in every way assist in this movement. With regard to land purchases, in the past great errors had been made in employing agents to purchase on commission. These agents looked more to quantity than quality, and • in many cases the purchases had been represented as closed when they were not. Troublesome people had actually been shut out from Crown grants, and children and improvident adults had been appealed to. Barge sums had also been paid, not to the natives at all, but on orders to storekeepers. Most unsatisfactory things had also taken place in regard to reserves, and the least possible result had indeed been obtained for a very large amount of money. The total amount of land acquired was about six million acres. This looked satisfactory, but on going below the

surface lie found things very different. Of the leasehold not a single acre was in a condition to be used. Two-thirds of the work had yet to be done, with only one-fifth of the money to do it with. Only about £40,000 or £44,000 had been paid to Europeans for surveys and commission. At least a third of the freehold laud would require further expenditure to acquire a valid title. More money would thus be required to complete existing bargains. It was necessary to avoid a great loss, by endeavoring to make as much as possible of these uncompleted transactions; and legislation would be necessary in those cases where minors were concerned. It was proposed to give the Governor in Council power to appoint trustees. It was intended to at once close all outstanding transactions, with purchase agents, and have no more purchasing on commission, but to employ proper responsible Government officers, and absolutely forbid anyone connected with the Native Department from purchasing. So soon as existing transactions were complete the Government should go out of the market as purchasers of native lands. The want of money was one cause for this, and every month the natives were becoming less willing to sell to Government at a low price. The amount of money available was small, and they proposed to operate ou this fund without reference to provincial distinctions, leaving the adjustment of accounts to next year. There were about thirty millions of acres of land in the North Island still open for purchase. He regretted the abolition of the Grown s preemptive right in 1862; but it was qow too late to retrace the steps taken in this direction. If the present Act was a failure, as was generally admitted, it was because the Native Bauds Court had become largely the servant of the Native Department, being used simply as a means for Government acquiring lauded estate in the North Island. It was, ho thought, most essential that the Court should he entirely free from all Government interference. He reviewed the action of the late Government in regard to two Bills introduced this session. The Suspension Bill would have been a most unjust one. The Government now intended toprovide for the minors iu Crown grants, and for a better system of hearing appeals from the Native Bands Court. The appeals would be made in accordance, however, with the existing law—from one Judge who heard the case to another who had not. This was all that they proposed to do this session. If the bulk of the work of determining titles were done, as it should be, by the native chiefs, the cost of the Native Bands Court could be greatly reduced. As far as possible the individualisation of title should be insisted on. This would greatly promote settlement. Something might also be done in guiding and directing the natives in the disposal of their lands. If the Government did this fairly he believed the natives would take advantage of it to a large extent. Where the land was not suitable for small settlers be thought it would be desirable to promote settlement even by large areas. Regarding the vexed question of native representation, lie could not agree with Mr. Whitaker to abolish representation. This would be unjust, while a large portion of the natives could not acquire the franchise in the same manner by Crown grants and individual titles as Europeans could. He would propose an increase of special representation to seven members, and if after a few years change took place in the nature of the tenure, special representation might be abolished and native representatives be elected in the ordinary manner. Until the natives talked English, and were more mixed with Europeans and better understood our laws and customs, a Native Department would be necessary; but for some years the department had been a barrier to settlement, and had made work as an excuse for its existence. He bore testimony, however, to the services and zeal of the UnderSecretary, Mr. Clarke, and the officer in charge of the native schools. It was in its ramifications through the country the department was dangerous. He hoped before next session to reduce it from a powerful organisation to a mere skeleton, but a useful one. He had often himself felt what it was to be insulted by a native official, and he believed the large reduction of the department would bring the two races closer to each other, and make them more harmonious. With reference to the King question, he maintained the genuine character of the recent telegrams from the King country. The} were from Government officers, entirely unsolicited and unsought. They had also telegrams from the King and from Manuhiri, and it was hoped the meeting to which they invited Sir George Grey would be attended by most beneficial results. Sir George Grey had fought the natives no doubt, but that very fact raised him in the estimation of the natives, and was a recommendation instead of a drawback. If the aukati were abolished, he thought the credit of the colony would be greatly enhanced. He did not suppose a single interview would settle the difficulty. The natives might ask what in fairness to the colony the Government could not grant; but the natives were anxious for a settlement of the questions at issue, and had sought the interview, and he believed the results would be satisfactory. He hoped ere very long to see some leading Waikato or Ngatimaniopoto chief a member of that House. He recalled the time when the native question was the greatest one in the colony; but since that time the proportions between the two races had been reversed. We then professed a desire to raise the native people to an equality with ourselves. We were now strong enough to disregard and repudiate all the promises then made, but he mistook the temper of the House and country if this very strength would not be considered an additional reason for pursuing the same end and aim. He looked hopefully forward to the time when both races would really be one people. (Great applause) As the Bill was not printed, he moved the postponement of the second reading. The following are the precise figures used by Mr. Sheehan in hia statement : —Total native population of the North Island, 43,408 ; South Island, 2608. The amounts spent during ten years ending 30th June, 1871, in suppressing native disturbances were from revenue £781,405 6s. 9d, loan £2,375,885 13s. 3d.; total, £3,157,291. The amount spent on roads in the North Island to 30th June last was —from Defence Boan, £10,750 ; from Emigration and Public Works Loans, £471,160. Dur ng the seven yeais ending 30th Juno last £59,197 19a. Id. was spent on native schools. Total number of village schools 50, and other schools 11, to be maintained this year. Bast year £15,392 had been spent on schools and buildings. For the present year £11,571 wos proposed to be expended. £3500 more was required to meet engagements and provide schools where none now existed. Land purchases in the North Island negotiated for freehold, 4,613,329 acres ; leasehold, 1,540,081 acres. Of this only 1,967,402 acres of freehold were completed, and none leasehold Ou completed transactions £280,052 had been expended, and £148,921 on incomplete transactions ; and £102,074 in general expenses. The balance unexpended on Ist July last was £168,951. In Auckland, of the £350,000 apportioned to that district, only £30,894 remained unexpended, and £52,400 was required for the current year. In Taranaki, Wellington, and Hawke’s Bay, however, the available balances were in excess of the sums required this year, being as follows : Wellington unexpended, £69,520 ; required, £21,425 ; Hawke’s Bay unexpended, £40,326 ; required, £7725. Taranaki .unexpended, £28,230 ; required, £IO,OOO. LAND BILL. The Band Bill was further considered iu committee. Progress was reported, and the House rose at 12.35.