PARLIAMENT.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tuesday, October 2. The Hon. the Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m. REPORTS AND PETITIONS. The Hon. Captain BAILLIE presented several petitions from various localities re the reading of the Bible in the public schools, and the same hon. member brought up three reports from the Select Committee on Public Petitions. MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE. The Hon. Colonel WHITMOKB obtained leave to move, and it was carried, that the time allowed to the committee appointed to consider the removal of Mr. J. H. Wilson he extended to Friday next; and a similar extension of time was granted to the select committee appointed to consider the question of the Canterbury grain traffic, on the motion of the Hon. Mr. Hall. QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE. In reply to the Hon. Sir P, D, Bell, the Hon. Dr. Pollen stated that, with regard to the native disturbance which resulted in the Montgomeries having to leave their station and go down to Wanganui, there was no reason to apprehend that the natives would use violence, as they had only threatened an action in the Supreme Court. —In reply to the Hon. Colonel Whitmore, the Hou. Dr. Pollen stated that the rumor of a native having been murdered at Murimotu originated in a quarrel between two Maoris, during the course of ■which, and whilst they were surveying boundaries, one struck the other with a billhook. NOTICE OP MOTION. Notices of motion were given for next sitting day by the Hons. Messrs. Bonar, Hall, and Miller, Colonel Brett, and Drs. Grace and Menzies; for Thursday next by the Hou. Mr. Hall; and for Friday next by the Hon. Mr. Hart. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The Hokitika Gas Bill was read a third time and passed. QUESTION. The Hon. Mr. CHAMBERLIN asked the Hon. the Colonial Secretary,—Whether it is the intention of the Government, with reference to the report of the Commissioner of Crown Lands, Invercargill, to take any steps, by commission or otherwise, to ascertain whether the oyster fisheries in the North Island are being, injured ? The Hon. Dr. Pollen replied that the question was an important one, and had not been neglected, and it was intended, despite the fault which was found with the notion, to maintain the four months’ close season for oysters. EDUCATION BILL. The second reading of this Bill was agreed to at the evening sitting of the Council, after the following gentlemen had spoken to the question, the Hons. Messrs, Buckley and Bonar, Drs. Grace, Pollen, and Menzies, and Colonel Whitmore. —Several hon. members gave notices of amendments when the Bill should be committed next sitting day; and the general feeling of the Council seemed to be rather against than for. the Bill in its present form. CANTERBURY RIVERS ACT 1870 AMENDMENT ACT 1877. A message was received from the House of Representatives stating that that body agreed with all the amendments of the Legislative Council in the Canterbury Rivers Act 1870 Amendment Act 1877, except the last one. —The consideration of the message was postponed till 7.30 p.m., after which hour it was decided, on the motion of the Hon. Sir F. D. Bell, seconded by the Hon. Mr. Hall, —That the Council doth adhere to its amendments so far as regards the receipt of salary, but does not as to the receipt of travelling expenses ; and that the following managers be appointed to draw up reasons why the Council insists upon its amendments : —The Hon. Mr. Hall, Colonel Whitmore, and Sir. F. D. Bell. DISTRICT RAILWAYS ACT 1877. The Bill was received by message from the House of Representatives, and read a first time, its second reading, on the motion of the Hon. Dr. Pollen, [being fixed for Thursday next. ORDERS OP THE DAT. The Queenstown Athenreurn Bill (second reading) was agreed to, and the Bill was then ordered to be referred to the Waste Lands Committee. The Oamaru Athentßum and Mechanics Institute Reserve Bill was read a third time, and passed. Tho remaining orders of the day were either discharged or postponed, and tile Council then (at 10.15 p.m.) adjourned. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Tuesday, October 2. The Speaker took the chair at the usual hour. REPORTS, ETC. A number of reports were brought up from the Public Petitions Committee.—Mr. Sheehan tabled a resolution from tho Native Affairs Committee asking for a room to bo set apart exclusively for the sittings of that committee throughout the session. The SPEAKER read a letter received from the Hon. Mr. H. R. Russell, expressing his willingness to have the letters in connection with the statements made in the House respecting Sir George Grey’s alleged transactions in the Taupo lands laid before the House. Mr. Russell explained in his letter that it was owing to late severe illness that he had not expressed his assent to the letters being produced, when he had learned that they only referred to the Taupo lands. The letters were ordered to be laid on the table.-
Mr. STOUT thought that tho letters should be published, in order to allow hon. members greater opportunity for perusing them. Mr. Stout read a long statement made by the Hon. Mr - . Russell respecting the whole of the transactions, and saying that it was absolutely untrue that Sir George Grey had.anything to do with the arrangements entered into for acquiring the land from the natives at Taupo, by the company consisting of Colonel Whitmore, Mr. Russell, Mr. Buller, and Mr. Cox. He moved that the letters and statement of Mr. H. R. Russell be printed and embodied in the journals of the House. This was agreed to.
QUESTION OP PRIVILEGE. Sir GEORGE. GREY rose to a question of privilege. He moved that the proofs of the speeches of hon. members on the occasion of the debate on the subject of Hawke’s Bay land transactions on the 6th September last be laid upon the table. The reason of the hon. member for bringing forward this motion was that the speeches as they appeared in Hansard were different from those delivered by hon. members.
The SPEAKER explained that Sir George Grey had applied to him some days before as to the course to be taken. After subsequent consideration, he (the Speaker) communicated with the chief of the Hansard staff, and received from him the reporter’s proofs asked for. The Hon. Major ATKINSON said the matter appeared to be a very grave one. It was now proposed to take the reporter’s notes, instead of acting in accordance with the usual parliamentary practice of moving for the words to be taken down at the time they were uttered. He was not going to oppose the motion, but he would say that what was proposed to be doue was really a dangerous invasion of the privileges of the House. He had often found himself reported to have said exactly opposite to what he did say. The hon. member for the Thames should state the purpose for which he required the proofs of the speeches, and he trusted that hon. member would inform the House of the use he was going to make of them. Mr. ROLLESTON said the matter should be first submitted to the Reporting Debates Committee, for the purpose of comparing the proofs with the Hansard reports, after which that Committee could refer the matter to the House.
The Hon. Mr. FOX, in testifying to the excellence of the Hansard staff of reporters, would say that reports of speeches were frequently incorrect. A member should not be called upon to justify his corrections, or have his character placed at stake, upon what a reporter might have written. The proofs of speeches sent to hon. members for revision should be considered as confidential between the reporter and the hon. member reported, after which the corrected proof should be ua longer kept. Mr. REES pointed out that the only words that could be taken down were those which transgressed the rules of Parliamentary debates. Charges affecting the character of hon. members might be made without this, and yet hon. members might strike those charges out of the reports of their speeches, and so escape rq. sponsibility. Sir ROBERT DOUGLAS would oppose the motion. He was very glad indeed to see the speeches toned down in Hansard in the manner they were, as it indicated what hon. members would really say if not influenced by the heat of debate.
Mr. J. E. BROWN supported the views expressed by Mr. Rolleston with reference to the matter being referred to the Reporting Debates Committee. Mr. HARPER moved an amendment to the effect that the matter be referred to the Reporting Debates Committee to report upon. A discussion followed, in which Messrs. Barff, Gisborne, Russell, Macandrew, Bowen, Stafford, Bunny, Harper, Hodgkinson, Sutton, Reid, and Sheehan took part. Sir GEORGE GREY had no objection to withdrawing his motion, and accepting the amendment for the proofs of the speeches delivered during the debate on the Hawke’s Bay land transactions that began on the 6th of September being referred to the Reporting Debates Committee. Leave was granted to Sir George Grey to withdraw his motion, and the amendment was substituted. QUESTIONS. Mr. TBAYERS asked the Minister for Public Works, —Whether or not his attention has been called to the proposed position of the goods station at Kaitoke, near the Paknratahi, on the Wellington and Masterton railway, with special reference to its suitability ? The Hon. Mr. ORMOND replied that the present site chosen for the goods station was the most available. The superintending engineer, along with another engineer, had visited the place several times, and found no more favorable locality than the present. The whole subject would receive the greatest attention and care.
Mr. J. E. BROWN asked the Premier, —If he will lay before the House a return showing the cost of publication of the WaTca Maori at the Government Printing Office, from December to July last; also, when, and by whom, the said cost was paid ? The Hon. Major ATKINSON replied that there was no objection to laying on the table the return asked for. Mr. SUTTON asked the Government, — Whether they have any intention of bringing in a Road Board Bill this session ?
The Hou. Major ATKINSON said the subject was one of very great importance, but the Government did not see its way to dealing with the matter during the present session. Mr. MURRAY, at the request of native chiefs, asked the Government, —If they will cause copies of any telegrams, letters, or other papers which they have received regaiding the Native Land Sales Suspension Bill to be laid before this House ; and, if so, when ? The Hon. Major ATKINSON stated that the papers asked for would be laid upon the table.
Mr. RUES asked the Commissioner of Customs, —Why-the steamship Luna was sold privately, and not by public tender or competition ?
The Hon, Mr. McLBAN replied that after proper inquiry had been made, it was ascertained that the full value of the Luna was-got by the manner in which she was disposed of. Mr. STEVENSON asked the Colonial Treasurer on what day a statement of the Provincial liabilities would be laid before this House? The Hen. MAJOR ATKINSON replied that the statement asked for would be laid upon the table next day. LEAVE TO INTRODUCE BILLS.
The Public Reserves Bill—-Hon. Mr. Reid ; the Special Contracts Confirmation Bill—Hon. Mr. Reid ; the Tokomairiro Earmers’ Club Reserve Bill—Hon. Mr. Ruid ; a Bill to vest a certain reserve in Dunedin in the Borough Council of Dunedin as a site for a Town Hall and for other public purposes—Mr. Stout; the Christchurch District Drainage Act 1876 Amendment Bill—Mr. J. B. Brown ; a Bill to authorise the Governor .to grant or otherwise assure to the body corporate of the County of Vincent certain land in the township of Clyde, and portion of Longstons-street, in the said town —Mr. Pyke. DISTRICT RAILWAYS BILL.
On the third reading of the District Railways Bill, Mr. ROLEESTON proceeded to point out that the Bill would probably impose a heavy charge on the Consolidated Fund a few years hence. He would like to hear the Colonial Treasurer say as to how far it would effect the financial position of the colony. Mr. TRAVERS thought that the portion of the Bill granting the power to raise a rate for railway purposes under the Act would be a matter that people would consider more than twice before giving their assent to railways being formed. The Hon. the Colonial Treasurer was no doubt prepared to give some assurance to the House that he did or did not anticipate a strain on the Consolidated Revenue beyond that which could or could not be borne. He (Mr. Travers) thought that the Bill, especially the clauses guaranteeing 2 per cent,, would tend to the construction of a_ number of lines which might lead to such an increase of revenue as would well enable the Consolidated Revenue to bear the burden. He did not think that the local rating clauses would work favorably in having many railways made. He would like to see the Government guarantee an increase beyond the 2 per cent. The Hon. Major ATKINSON said it was impossible to say what demands on the revenue might result in future years. For the present year very little demand would be made. He was quite satisfied that the wisdom of the people of the colony would go upon the broad principle, and it might safely be relied upon that railways would bo made in those districts where they would pay, and where the general increase iri the prosperity of this country would more than enable the revenue to meet the demand for interest. He had not the slightest doubt that the House was prepared to
deal with the matter on this broad ground. The revenue would be so much increased that there would be no difficultyin meeting the small amount of guarantee. Next year the Government hoped to have more defined grounds. Dr. .lIODGKINSON doubted the wisdom of overloading the Consolidated Revenue with guarantees of interest. Mr. PYKE thought that the rating clauses were of very little value, but those clauses enabling counties to construct railways he considered a very wise provision in the Bill. The Bill was read the third time and passed. DISQUALIFICATION. The report of the committee appointed to inquire into the disqualification of Mr. Martin Kennedy was read. It was to the effect that Mr. Kennedy had not become disqualified under the Act of 1876, but nevertheless the spirit of the Act bad been deliberately infringed. The committee recommended that the Act be amended. The report was ordered to be printed. Mr. REYNOLDS asked what action the Government proposed to take in regard to the Disqualification Act. A great deal of the time of the'House had been wasted through breaches of privilege owing to the law not being more distinct. The Hon. Mr. WHITAKER said the Government were not prepared to say that they would introduce an Act on the subject, but would inform the House at a future date. LAND BILL. Dr. Hodgkinson and Mr. De Lautodb having addressed the H.,use, Sir GEORGE GREY said there was never an Act which more struck at the rights of the people of New Zealand than the present one. It deprived the people of every right in the land. It provided for a Waste Lands Board being nominated by the Ministry, to relieve the latter of the trouble of dealing with the public estate. The people would have no control over the irresponsible members of the Waste Lands Board. He would propose in committee that the Board should be elected by a constituency, the qualification to vote being based on as broad a principle as possible. If his clause were adopted he would udeavor to get the franchise for county councils and road hoards altered. Every man, whether he was possessed of wealth or not, had the same right in the lands of the colony. Till a fair system of land laws were established over the country the people could not prosper. Mr. ROLLBSTON said it was a mistake to suppose that a nominated Waste Lands Board would deprive the people of liberty. They had not yet come to electing their magistracy, and he hoped it would be a long time yet before they elected their Waste Lands Board. It was necessary for the proper dealing with lands that there should he continuity of the board. A nominated board had never been looked upon by the people of Canterbury as depriving them of their liberty. There was room for improvements in the present Bill; but he thought it would be better to pass it, and it could be amended in future.
Sir 'ROBERT DOUGLAS did not object to the details of the Bill; but he had the same fault to find with it that he had found with the Education Act—it perpetuated provincialism. He thought that it should he left to the County Councils to advise the Government as to what lands should be opened up. Mr. BASTINGS said it would be disastrous, as far as Otago was concerned, if a Land Bill was not passed during the present session. A great number of the pastoral leases would fall in within the next twelvemonths, and he knew there were a large number of settlers and their sons ready to take up lands. The deferred payment system had been a success in Otago. He thought free selection on the pastoral lands of Otago would be highly conducive to settlement.
The Hon. Mr. GISBORNE said that what would suit one part of the colony might not suit another, and it would be necessary to form distinct boards for the various parts. The main objects of the Bill should be to encourage the small settler, and discourage the monopolist. He was of opinion that the system of deferred payments would promote settlement.
Mr. ROWE thought the system of nominated boards was the worst possible. The boards were irresponsible and tyrannical. He referred to the Auckland Waste Laud Boards refusing to grant land to settlers at the Thames, and granting 100,000 acres at a less price to Mr. Broornhall, an English speculator. The people of the colony should be able to obtain lauds on as easy terms as immigrants.
The Hon. Mr. REYNOLDS was opposed to the system of nominated boards. He was also opposed to the residence clause. He thought a settler should be able to take up land for his family, and if he effected a certain amount of improvement upon it he should be allowed to retain it. There had been a, regulation in Otago which provided for the taking up of land on the deferred payment system, on the condition that the selector expended 10s. per acre per annum. He believed the abolition of that regulation had the effect of retarding the settlement of Otago by thirty years. Mr. STOUT thought free selection would be a great mistake in a colony like this, where the amount of agricultural land was limited. He believed that settlement in Canterbury would ' have been more satisfactory if the free selection system had not been in existence. The speaker read extracts from various official documents in support of this. He thought it was a huge mistake to get rid of the lauds. They should be reserved for settlement.
Mr. WAKEEIELD in addressing the House described the effect of the land laws of the various provinces in the North Island. He considered that of these provinces Wellington had taken the lead in the work of settlement. The land laws of Canterbury had been the most successful of any in the colony. With half the area, there was a larger number of holdings than there were in Otago. The yield of wheat was double, though in oats Otago beats Canterbury slightly. That was the solitary crop in which Otago was ahead. They were told Canterbury was a vast sheepwalk ; but in that province there were 653,000 acres under crop, while in Otago there was only 536,000. That would show how the free selection system had worked in Canterbury. Mr. PYKE spoke strongly in favor of free selection as the best means of opening up the country. Mr. LUMSDEN said the result of free selection in Otago would be to place the lands in the hands of largo holders. It had for some time been in force in that province, and that was found to be the result. In Otago and Southland the difficulty was not in finding settlers, but iu affording sufficient laud for settlement. The Hon. Mr. REID said he would defer any remarks he had to make in answer to objections raised to the Bill till the House was iu committee upon it. The House then resolved itself into committee to consider the Land Bill, and clause 18 was reached, when progress was reported. MINES BILL. The amendments made in the Mines Bill by the Goldfields Committee were adopted pro forma, and the Bill was ordered to be re-com-mitted the following day. The House rose at 12.20.
Permanent link to this item
Hononga pūmau ki tēnei tūemi
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZTIM18771003.2.18
Bibliographic details
Ngā taipitopito pukapuka
New Zealand Times, Volume XXXII, Issue 5158, 3 October 1877, Page 3
Word count
Tapeke kupu
3,527PARLIAMENT. New Zealand Times, Volume XXXII, Issue 5158, 3 October 1877, Page 3
Using this item
Te whakamahi i tēnei tūemi
No known copyright (New Zealand)
To the best of the National Library of New Zealand’s knowledge, under New Zealand law, there is no copyright in this item in New Zealand.
You can copy this item, share it, and post it on a blog or website. It can be modified, remixed and built upon. It can be used commercially. If reproducing this item, it is helpful to include the source.
For further information please refer to the Copyright guide.