PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXII, Issue 5130, 1 September 1877, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Fbiday, August 31. The Hon. the Swsaker took the chair at the usual hour. QUESTION WITHOUT NOTICE. In reply to the Hon. Mr. Bonar, who, by permission of the Council, had asked the question without notice, The Hon. Dr. POLLEN replied that there would be no objection on the part of the Government to laying on the table of the Council, as soon as possible, returns, &c, relating to the special settlement at Jackson Bay. MOTIONS. The Hon. Major RICHMOND moved,— That the following standing order be adopted by the Council:—lt shall be the duty of the Speaker to take care that, On the third reading of all [Bills initiated in the Legislative Council, any provisions which may appear to him to infringe upon the privileges of the House of Representatives be marked, and the provisions so marked shall be printed in erasure type, and shall not be held to form part of the Bill as forwarded to the House of Representatives.

A long discussion ensued on this motion, which lasted over an hour, and in which nearly every member present took part. The Hon. the Speaker made a few remarks to the Council, in which he intimated his willingness to take upon himself the responsibility involved in the standing order, as by so doing he evaded a much greater responsibility, i.e., the sending down at the end of the session to the House of Representatives Bills which had been rushed through and insufficiently considered. The question was one affecting the privileges of both branches of the Legislature.—The Hon. Dr. Pollen said his views were embodied in the motion, inasmuch a 3 he_ was a member of the Standing Orders Committee, the chairman of which had brought up the motion. Although the motion, if carried, would obviate many, it must not be expected to obviate all of the difficulties and inconveniences with which the Council might be called upon to put up.—The motion was then put and carried.

The Hon. Mr. HOLMES moved,—That a return be laid upon the. table of the Council, showing the tonnage dues, wharfage rates, and port charges of whatever kind, levied on ships, merchandise, and other imports and exports, at the several ports of New Zealand. —The Hon. Dr. Menzies having spoken to the question, the Hon. Dr. Pollen remarked that the return asked for would be a very interesting . one. It should be laid on the table as soon as possible, but it would take some time to collect the information required. The motion, on being put, was carried. . .The Hon. Dr. Menzies moved, and the Hon. Colonel Bkett seconded, —That leave oi abseuce be granted to the Hon. Dr. Menzies for a fortnight, from the 4th of September next, on urgent private business.—Carried. timaru mechanics institute act, 1877, A message was received from the House of Representatives covering this Bill, which was read a first time, and to be printed. Its second reading, on the -motion of the Hon. Colonel Whitmore, was fixed for next sitting day., port chalmers waterworks act amendment . , act, 1877, A message was received from the House of Representatives covering this Bill, which was read a first time, and ordered to be printed, its second reading, on the motion of the Hon. Captain Fraseb, being fixed for Thursday next. WELLINGTON CUT RESERVES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. A message was received from the House of Representatives stating they agreed with the amendments made by the Council in this Bill. KAIAPOI NATIVE RESERVES BILL. This Bill was recommitted, reported with amendments, and ordered to-be read a third time next sitting day. LYTTELTON PUBLIC DOMAINBILL. This Bill was read a third time and passed. AUCKLAND HIGHWAY DISTBICTS VALIDATION BILLOn the motion of the Hon. Dr. Pollen. the following were appointed a committee for drawing up jthe.reasons.forthe Council adhering to their amendments with which the House of Representatives disagreed:—The Hon. Messrs. Bonar,. Buckley, Williamson, and Dr. Pollen. DESTITUTE PERSONS BILL. The further consideration of this Bill was adjourned until next sitting day. The House adjourned at 4.30 p.m. until Tuesday, next. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Friday, August 31. The Speaker took the chair at halfpast two o'clock. The SPEAKER announced that in the division the previous night on the Dunedin Wharves and Quays Reserves Bill, an error occurred in hot counting in the teller's with the noes. The corrected division list would show the noes 14, the ayes 15. PETITIONS. Sir GEORGE GREY presented a petition against the Education Bill from a number of the residents in Auckland. Several other petitions were presented. NOTICES OF MOTION. Mr. SHRIMSKI gave notice that he would move to the effect that the step taken by the Hon. the Attorney-General in prosecuting Mr. George Jones, for an article published in the Oamaru Evening Mail, out of which arose the late case of breach of privilege, was harsh, arbitrary, and did not meet with_the approval of the House. A number of other notices of motion were laid upon the table. THE SARTORIS-DOWNES CLAMS BILL. Mr. CARRINGTON, as a matter of privilege, drew attention to this case, which came before the House last session, and caused much discussion. He referred to the charges that had been made against him of endeavoring to get this Bill passed through the House in consideration of the commission of 10 per, cent, he was about to receive for his parliamentary service. Since that time correspondence had taken place between himself and Captain Borrer in England, in reference: to the accusation 'made, distinctly denying that there was any arrangement whatever for receiving, commission in the event of the Bill passing through all its stages. He (Mr. Carrington) felt that a, great wrong had been done him by the comments made at the time by a portion of the Press. His object now in reading the different correspondence received from : those who would have been benefited by the passing of the Bill, was to show that the former accusations made against him were emphatically untrue, and by this means to set himself right with the people of the colony. The Hon. Mr. STAFFORD read a letter from Captain Borrer to the same effect as those read by Mr. Carrington.

QUESTIONS. The Hon. Mr. WHITAKER, in reply to Mr. Travers, stated that it was the intention of the Government to bring iti a Bill to amend the Dangerous Goods Act now in force, in order to render, them more effect. Mr. REES asked the Premier,—(l) Whether the Government paid any meney to any person or persons as compensation or otherwise in relation to a block of native land, of about 200,000 acres in extent, in or near the Waikato, which block the Government afterwards obtained on lease, and which is - alluded to in an article in the Oamaru Evening Mail, recently read in this House? (2.) If so, to whom, and under what circumstances, the said money was paid, and the amount ? (3.) The names of the solicitors, if any, or agents employed either by the Government or Buch parties 1 The Hon. Major ATKINSON, in replying, stated that in relation to this question the subject was, by order of the House, to be dealt with by .the Courts of Law. Mr. REES said he was dissatisfied with the reply of the hon. the Premier, and moved the adjournment of the House. Sir GEORGE GREY submitted that the question was one of great urgency, and should be answered before the prosecution was gone on with.' • The Hon. Mr. FOX considered the question

a most ingenious attempt to reverse the deci-. sion already given by the House. The question was simply calling upon the House, to decide whether Mr. George Jones was or was not guilty of the charge instituted against him by the Hon. the Attorney-General. The Hon. Mr. GISBORNE thought that the Government were quite right in not answering the question of: the hon. member :for the .Thames. The case was now relegated to the Supreme Court, and Mr. Jones could if necessary call for Government papers in support of hi 3 defence if he bo desired. The Hon. Mr. WHITAKER remarked that Mr. George Jones had the power of subpoenaing every member of the Government if he chose. Mr. HISLOP contended that the question should be answered. Mr. REES' motion for adjournment was then, put and lost on the voices. The Hon. Major ATKINSON moved, and it was carried, that the House sit on every Monday until the end of the session, for the transaction of Government business only.

ADJOURNED DEBATE ON THE EDUCATION BILL. Mr. CURTIS expressed his approval of the general provisions of the Bill relating to the reading of the Holy Scriptures, and those clauses providing for secular instruction. As to the machinery of the Bill, he considered the constitution of Education Boards as very satisfactory. As regarded the capitation clause of a fee of ten shillings, he was of opinion .that- this was. one of the excellent provisions of the Bill, on account of the general character of the compulsion it exercised on the minds of parents for sending their children to school.' He thought it would practically have more effect than the compulsory clauses of the Bill. He then passed on to review the compulsory clauses. Regarding the local committee, he thoroughly concurred in it, as it gave to the people a considerable interest in the administration of school affairs. The Bill, however, was in need of amendment. He was not at all sure that the compulsory clauses providing for the reading of the Scriptures would be found to operate beneficially. He would propose, when the Bill went into committee, that the system relating to religious instruction at present in vogue in Dunedin should be brought into force all over the colony. That system left the question of religious instruction entirely at the discretion of each school committee. In relation to the Roman Catholic portion of the community, who form one-seventh of the whole population of the colony, he thought some concession should be made in the Bill to meet their ob-, jeotions, if it could be done without sacrificing any of the leading principles of the Bill. He then, pointed out the grounds upon which the members of that persuasion object to the Bill, and thought they should be allowed to select for themselves the books they 'desired to use, subject to the sanction of the school inspectors. He concluded by stating that it could be hardly expected, that an Education Bill could be framed that would not meet with considerable opposition. He then moved the amendment that has' been already published in the New Zealand Times, of which he had given notice. Mr. BARFF rose and stated that the hon. member who had just sat down had.expressed so. well the views he (Mr. Barff) entertained that he would not speak at great length. With regard to the religious clauses of the. Bill, he thought it was not right for the Legislature to introduce any measure that, would operate against a man's conscience and tend to stir up strife. He thought a very great wrong indeed would be inflicted by the Bill before the House being allowed to pass in its present form. The Hon. Mr. GISBORNE referred to the able manner in which the Hon. the Minister of Education introduced the Bill, and the information he then afforded' on the subject. He (Mr. Gisborne) expressed himself in favor of districts being enlarged as much as possible as it would give scope to the employment of a better class of teachers. He would Bupport the amendment of the hon. member for. Nelson, of giving aid only to those schools included in the principle laid down by the Bill. He hoped the Government would admit the amendment proposed by the hon. member, as thej would do justice to the conscientious convictions of a large section of the- community, without infringing the principle of secular education. He concluded by stating he would support the second' reading, and in committee would heartily support" the amendment of Mr. Curtis; Dr. HENRY said he would support the Bill on the condition that the amendment'of; Mr. ' Curtis would be agreed to. ! Mr. WAKEFIELD said he would oppose the religious clauses contained in the Bill to his very utmost. In other respects he; approved of the Bill.. He was opposed to the amendment of the hon. member for Nelson. He considered the proposals contained in j that amendment as being even more objectionable than the religious clauses in the Bill introduced by the hon. the Minister of Education. Mr, -LUSK believed the time .had come when the system of education -'in/, this colony should be more uniform than it had beenhitherto. The hou. member, in introducing this Bill, stated that a ' time had arrived when there should be ,a system! of education in force in the'colony that'should be national, secular, and locally administered; Two of these principles-'w.e.re".wanting.in the Bill. He was opposed to' the system laid down in the Bill for giving religious instruction; and pointed out that the education system; prsvailing in "Auckland was with a slight section of the community found acceptable. With regard to the second principle embodied in the Bill, conferring local management it had his hearty concurrence. The clause relating to capitation fees he thought would not be found to work . successfully.. .He pointed out the great difficulty that had taken place in Auckland in collecting the education rate, and he anticipated the same result for the capitation fee of 10s. It would, he said, be found that any dependence placed upon the fees derived from that source would prove to be a. miserable failure. Another great objection to the Bill was, that the grant from the Consolidated Revenue would be altogether insufficient for the purposes required. On this point he thought the hon. member who introduced the Bill had erred in his calculations. The amount contributed from the Consolidated Fund would be insufficient to meet the salaries' of the teachers, and it would be .found to break down. Although fully agreeing in the principles laid down in the Bill, he could not but take exception to the conclusions the hon. member in charge of it had drawn. He objected to tho centralising tendencies of the Bill, and said he would oppose those clauses which placed undue power in the hands of Ministers. If the Bill were denuded of the two or three objectionable features which he had pointed out, he felt assured that it would be deserving of the very greatest consideration. The Hon. the Minister for Education should be satisfied to consolidate the educational system of the colony. That hon. gentleman should not attempt •in any wise to bring about a system of. uniformity except by gradual degrees. He concluded a lengthy speech by expressing a hope that the Bill when in committee would undergo the several modifications which he had pointed out. Dr. WALLIS said he heartily concurred in the principles laid down in the Bill. After briefly reviewing some of the features of the measure, he proceeded to point out the blemishes he considered it contained. He thought that the payment of teachers'should be left in the hands of the school committees. He condemned the number of Boards of Education. He thought the number of School Boards should be reduced from what they are at present, viz., twelve, to two or three. Another blemish was the omission of the most important branch of education.' He alluded to the necessity of teaching at all events the rudiments of physics and natural history. He then came to what he considered , the greatest blemish it contained, viz., placing of the whole power of educating the people in the hands of the State. This he strongly condemned. In conclusion he spoke of what he deemed- the transcendental excellence of the Bill, which consisted in its thoroughly non-sectarian character. •

Messrs. Macfarlane, De Lautour, and Dr. Hodgkinson having spoken, Mr. Pyke moved tho adjournment of the debate until Monday. The House rose at 11.45.